Flagtronics and Adjacent tracks - yikes !

[BeerBudgetRacing]

So, this weekend I was running at ButtonWillow's new The Circuit course. Running in the Original Track was the Trans-Am series.

We received a warning from race control to ignore Flagtronics indications, and indeed I did receive all kinds of signals on the device from the other track!

I thought this thing only transmitted to registered cars?
Does this mean a track like the original Buttonwillow cannot split the track and run 2 configs?
Does this mean 2 series can't be using Flagtronics on 2 different tracks at the same time?

I was okay with it in February when they used it at the SuperTour, but this is NOT going to solve the problem of corner workers.

[DaveW]

Sounds like a major issue that they didn't think about...

[Hardingfv32]

Exactly how many dual coarse tracks in the US? Are these tacks going to spring for two complete FT systems?

Worth the extra cost to accommodate such a situation?

Brian

[Peter Olivola]

There's probably a software fix for this at the base system level. It might even be in the package now but not activated. From what I've seen, Flagtronics systems have a great deal of flexibility in what Race Control sees with non race vehicles (safety car, fire truck, ambulance, wrecker, flat bed, etc., being turned on or off from the master.

[Dave Gomberg]

Exactly how many dual coarse tracks in the US? Are these tacks going to spring for two complete FT systems?

Worth the extra cost to accommodate such a situation?

Brian

I can't tell you exactly how many such tracks there are, but, off hand, at least NJMP (New Jersey Motorsports Park), PittRace can be configured to be two tracks, likewise VIR. I'm sure there are others around the country.

Dave

[Peter Olivola]

I can't tell you exactly how many such tracks there are, but, off hand, at least NJMP (New Jersey Motorsports Park), PittRace can be configured to be two tracks, likewise VIR. I'm sure there are others around the country.

Dave

Autobahn Joliet.

[Rick Kirchner]

In the case of Buttonwillow, the two tracks are completely separate, with only a hundred yards or so between parts of them. AND, the original track can be split into two separate tracks, so potentially you could have three events running at the same time.

[Eric Cruz]

I installed Flagtronics like a good boy on my cars at considerable expense and effort, since it was required to run Road Atlanta HST. While that weekend was my only experience running the system, it provided absolutely zero useful information to me as a driver that watches the flags. It was a distraction. On at least one occasion of BFA, it lagged nearly half a lap behind the corner station flags. Perhaps I will learn to make it less of a distraction as time goes on. If the problem is drivers not seeing and obeying the actual flags on the corners, I don’t see this as a solution, but as a further distraction to them paying attention to what’s ahead of them. And you point out another apparent shortcoming that was not considered. Big brother can watch me, but I will do my best to ignore him in the interest of safety.

Best regards,
Eric

[BeerBudgetRacing]

There's probably a software fix for this at the base system level. It might even be in the package now but not activated. From what I've seen, Flagtronics systems have a great deal of flexibility in what Race Control sees with non race vehicles (safety car, fire truck, ambulance, wrecker, flat bed, etc., being turned on or off from the master.

Like I said, I thought this only signaled registered cars for the current race. Signaling non-participating cars is a flaw.

It was the Trans-Am series that was using it. I would have thought they'd be using the latest updates since they were an early adopter....

[Steve Davis]

Summit Point would be another track.. THREE tracks in close proximity to each other.
I'm sure it could be DONE (separating the tracks within FT).. but it would probably ADD delay to the system. Right now, FT can 'tag' a single car (for BF, or meatball), but having to 'tag' ALL cars would be a significant effort I think. I'm sure the FT people will be looking at it since it has 'come up'. In the BW case, the only thing needed would have been to turn your own FT OFF.. as well as ALL other FT owners at 'your track'. Another option would have been to simply put a piece of tape over the screen .. or maybe just turn the led intensity down to nil. Might be a bigger issue for any using the new 'parts package' to feed FLAG INFO to their existing data screens. Guess those early adopters need to add a 'trigger'.. or setting to disable the feed in this case.

I expect we'll be hearing more about this issue soon.
Steve, FV80

[Spengo]

Seems to me like something solvable with software. The unit itself should be able to figure out that it's on a different config than the race being run with flag transmissions within the out lap just like other modern GPS data systems automatically figure out the track config.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Seems to me like something solvable with software. The unit itself should be able to figure out that it's on a different config than the race being run with flag transmissions within the out lap just like other modern GPS data systems automatically figure out the track config.

Well it's possible for some people to go 'off' the track further than the distance between 2 different tracks
So GPS of the track may not be the solution.

[Matt Clark]

I am also kinda thinking that there may be some sort of "easy" software update that could fix it. Basically just give each circuit a serial number or something, and then each layout/station a corresponding number.

example:
12345_____Buttonwillow
12345a____Buttonwillow Original
12345a1___Buttonwillow Original station 1
12345a2___Buttonwillow Original station 2
12345a3___Buttonwillow Original station 3
12345b____Buttonwillow The Circuit
12345b1___Buttonwillow The Circuit station 1
12345b2___Buttonwillow The Circuit station 2
12345b3___Buttonwillow The Circuit station 3

This could also be handy when activating/de-activating stations on tracks with multiple layouts that may get used on the same weekend, like Watkins Glen at The Fun One.

[Hardingfv32]

From the first post:

Did your or anyone else on the Circuit actually receive any FT indications on your display? Could the warning not have been actually necessary?


General question:

Are any FT indications every displayed/broadcast that are not related to a cars GPS position on the track?

Maybe there is actually not an issue at all.

Brian

[BeerBudgetRacing]

I received both Green and Yellow flags in the pits and on the track. So I do think it's an issue.

I do not know anyone else that had an FT.....

[GregAmy]

We received a warning from race control to ignore Flagtronics indications, and indeed I did receive all kinds of signals on the device from the other track!

My opinion, based on no other info than familiarity with the system, how it's set up, and having watched it at work at the Buttonwillow Super Tour earlier this month (as well as other Super Tours 2024/2025)...

TransAm cocked it up and did not properly set up their programming.

FT works on a geofencing concept: maps are made with specific boundaries. The system broadcasts signals and all receivers receive the signals, but only those within the appropriate boundaries display the indications to the driver. The system can be parsed so tightly that we can even detect when someone is in pitlane versus on the front straight and they'll get a "SLO" warning when they're exceeding the pitlane speed limit...but not while they're going by, 12 feet over, on the front straight.

Outside any zone, you get nuthin'. Zero. Zilch. Nada. After all, that's what the GPS is for...

I offer to you the attachment of an example of how Buttonwillow may have been setup for "The Circuit". Each one of those different colors is a different zone.

So...you were getting FT signals from the other track while existing on "The Circuit"? This leads me to conclude one thing: someone was broadcasting FT signals without setting up the geofencing.

Thus, based on no other evidence, I suspect TransAm was just broadcasting full course conditions to everyone within earshot. Why? Because that's easier. If you're not doing local flags then there's no reason to geofence, right? If you're not trying to limit driver display to anyone then why setup the geofencing at all? Just broadcast out "full course yellow" or "black Flag All" or whatever and everyone gets it within signal range. Why go to all the trouble of getting up geofencing when it won't be used? It's all or nothing full-course conditions.

That's my guess, anyway.

So...

>>> I thought this thing only transmitted to registered cars?

No, it broadcasts out to everything within signal range. However, when geofencing is properly setup then only cars within the appropriate geofencing boundaries will display to the driver what they're receiving.

The registration of your FT number is for Control to be able to identify YOU on their map(s) (we call it "marching ants". Come by the SCCA Tech trailer at a Super Tour to check it out).

>>> Does this mean a track like the original Buttonwillow cannot split the track and run 2 configs?

It does not mean that. With proper geofencing setup you can even individually signal a pair of NHRA drag racers side-by-side.

>>> Does this mean 2 series can't be using Flagtronics on 2 different tracks at the same time?

No.

Again, all just my guess. - GA

EDIT: and one more question you may have...

>>> So how does my unit get that map info?

On the Grid there's a little transmitter, with a base about the size of your phone and an 4" or so high antenna. Look for it on top of a wall or canopy or something. It transmits the latest map constantly so your unit will get updates each time you're in the vicinity.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

My opinion, based on no other info than familiarity with the system, how it's set up, and having watched it at work at the Buttonwillow Super Tour earlier this month (as well as other Super Tours 2024/2025)...

TransAm cocked it up and did not properly set up their programming.

FT works on a geofencing concept: maps are made with specific boundaries. The system broadcasts signals and all receivers receive the signals, but only those within the appropriate boundaries display the indications to the driver.

I am glad that was a possible issue. I was at the ST and it worked well. I'm in the boat that believes we need a solution like this. As an example last weekend there was no one at station 3 I believe. Running 2 tracks, running out of people !

It looks like we all need time to work through this - both in the car and at control.

Thank you for the clarification

[romoman]

I no idea what really happened, but Trans Am sets up local flagging and geofencing for all stations and the whole track based on my experience with them since they implemented the system. User error is always a possibility, but I would not go straight to that in this case. I have multiple examples were the FT200 did not work as planned or was in error.

[David Ferguson]

I recently ran the Flagtronics Device Manager (you have to connect to the FT200 with the USB cable for it to operate), and noticed that the track list for the device has been updated. There is now a Buttonwillow Circuit as well as Buttonwillow 14 configuration, and I think perhaps one other.

There are several other tracks with multiple configurations. I think there is plenty of support for multiple tracks, we are just new to using it out west.