Formula F Engine Operating Expense Comparisons

[Wayne H]

I've been away from FF for 30 years, now preparing my old car with a Loyning Kent engine for return to service. With many newer cars having gone to Honda power, I am wondering how the purchase and operating expenses of each engine compare. I am considering a newer car with Honda power. Some of you guys know the answer. Thanks.

Wayne H

[Messenger Racing]

Great - super glad to hear you considering jumping back in!

Some thoughts on your question from the RaceDog Honda Van Diemen camp:

The operating costs on the Honda are as close to immaterial as you will find in a true racecar. Over 6 years experience with multiple Honda in nationally competitive/prepped cars our motor expense has been one oil pump belt, injectors exchanged for fresh balanced set every couple of years (just because - never had one actually go bad), oil change every 5-8 race weekends plus a filter, new sparkplugs every 2-3 years just because. We had one motor that had not been touched for ten years other than the above - it was fully competitive at all races.

typically if you have a problem on the Hondas it will be due to overheating or abuse of the wiring harness resulting in a poor connection at some plug in the system. It can be a pain to find but anyone with amazon account and a soldering iron can usually repair for minimal bucks.

We recently checked the valve gaps on a car that hadn't had them checked in 5 years. all were within .001 of spec.

Purchase cost is higher. A typical national quality kent car appears to be 5-8,000 cheaper than an equally prepared Honda. Some would say closer to $10,000 but finding true equal comparisons is difficult.

The biggest difference on purchase is the abundance of "less than national quality" kent cars vs few Hondas in that category. So there is a much larger mid level prep opportunity in the kent market than the Honda.

Give me a ring or PM if you want to talk more details - again glad to have you in the group again!

Jay Messenger
Formula F USA

[SteveG]

Hi,

If you have a car with a kent engine that's been sitting for 30 years, contact Ivey Engines. They are the most helpful folks I've ever worked with.
And come out and join us in the CrossFlow cup. https://www.norwestff.com/

Steve

[DanW]

Jay Ivey has been making incremental improvements to the Kent for many years. The engines are still Kents and within the rules, but far more reliable than ever before due to material and engineering improvements out of the last 40+ years building engines.

A few examples
Improved cast iron blocks, stronger and cleaner castings by Ford Motorsport
Forged pistons mfg by CP Pistons
Improved rocker stands
Better quality valve springs

Most customers get 50+ hours on a rebuild with a head freshening at 30 hours.

SCCA allowed the use of a moderately lightened flywheel and a cast steel (SCAT Enterprises) crank. The cranks do not seem to "life out" at 30 hours or just break between #3 and 4 crankpins. My crank is approaching 100 hours.

I don't have current numbers for a "refresh" because my engine was rebuilt in 2020 including a new block.

[s800racer]

Kent refresh cost can vary quite a bit. The labor by itself will be at least $3,500.00. If the refresh is done without excessive hours on the motor (say at around 50 hrs), you will be replacing fewer components. Count on a minimum of valves, valve guides, seats, springs, rings, bearings, various seals and gaskets. I'm not sure what that adds up to but I'm guessing $6 - $8K plus shipping costs. If the motor has excessive hours on it or parts that have been recycled through multiple rebuilds you might have to add in camshaft, pistons, sleeving of the block and maybe a crankshaft. Again, just my guess, but that is likely at least the $8 - $10K range. If you are unfortunate enough to hole a block and more or less have to start from scratch, it's unlikely to come in under $15K.

As the tag on on the previous post says (Peter Egan quote): "Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague longing for something salty"

[tstrong]

Really depend on what you what/where you want to race. If Scca or F1600 pro series Fit is the way to go as maintenance costs are minimal. If vintage you must have a kent. As Dan mentions current spec Kents are way more reliable and long lived than in the old days. I see you are in CA so on the vintage side yo have two very good options with crossflow cup having huge fields of 30-50 cars with very competitive racing at the NorCal tracks. You also have VARA with smaller 15-25 cars fields but very competitive racing at the front of the field at the SoCal tracks. Both club run FF only run group which is a major benefit.

If you go scca, both SoCal and NorCal have fairly small FF groups. Typically less than 10 at majors and maybe 10-15 at regionals. FF is almost always run within a larger run group with various other formula and/or SR cars.

if you decide to go Kent definitely contact Ivey. FYI there are still many illegal Kent's out there so be careful if you don't plan on doing a rebuild straight away.

[Wayne H]

Thanks, Jay. Very useful info!

Wayne H

Great - super glad to hear you considering jumping back in!

Some thoughts on your question from the RaceDog Honda Van Diemen camp:

The operating costs on the Honda are as close to immaterial as you will find in a true racecar. Over 6 years experience with multiple Honda in nationally competitive/prepped cars our motor expense has been one oil pump belt, injectors exchanged for fresh balanced set every couple of years (just because - never had one actually go bad), oil change every 5-8 race weekends plus a filter, new sparkplugs every 2-3 years just because. We had one motor that had not been touched for ten years other than the above - it was fully competitive at all races.

typically if you have a problem on the Hondas it will be due to overheating or abuse of the wiring harness resulting in a poor connection at some plug in the system. It can be a pain to find but anyone with amazon account and a soldering iron can usually repair for minimal bucks.

We recently checked the valve gaps on a car that hadn't had them checked in 5 years. all were within .001 of spec.

Purchase cost is higher. A typical national quality kent car appears to be 5-8,000 cheaper than an equally prepared Honda. Some would say closer to $10,000 but finding true equal comparisons is difficult.

The biggest difference on purchase is the abundance of "less than national quality" kent cars vs few Hondas in that category. So there is a much larger mid level prep opportunity in the kent market than the Honda.

Give me a ring or PM if you want to talk more details - again glad to have you in the group again!

Jay Messenger
Formula F USA

[Lotus7]

typically if you have a problem ….. or abuse of the wiring harness resulting in a poor connection at some plug in the system. It can be a pain to find but anyone with amazon account and a soldering iron can usually repair for minimal bucks.

Jay Messenger
Formula F USA

Jay, yes harnesses are failure points, and everyone fixes their own, but shouldn’t we also admit to the OP that it’s against the rules? (Or has that finally changed?)
cheers

[Messenger Racing]

Ian is absolutely correct. modification of the harness is not allowed. What I refer to is the re-connecting of a wire that is either broken or pulled out of respective plug pin at a connector. The only problems I have seen are: one of the tiny wires breaking at the injector plug pin and a wire pulling out of the O2 sensor pin (poor crimp from original harness construction it appeared).

In the two examples I have run across the repaired item became the backup two new parts. But I would not have a concern if a competitor repaired a harness and i am not aware of any DQ due to same.

If a automotive connector is needed to be replaced it should only be identical to the original to avoid "modification". IMO

Jay, yes harnesses are failure points, and everyone fixes their own, but shouldn’t we also admit to the OP that it’s against the rules? (Or has that finally changed?)
cheers

[mboian90]

I've been away from FF for 30 years, now preparing my old car with a Loyning Kent engine for return to service. With many newer cars having gone to Honda power, I am wondering how the purchase and operating expenses of each engine compare. I am considering a newer car with Honda power. Some of you guys know the answer. Thanks.

Wayne H

Wayne,

I had my Honda rebuilt last year by one of the big name engine builders and the total cost was $6982 (includes freight). A better breakdown is below. This was the first rebuild of the engine since it left Hiroshima in 2009. The car was converted to Honda power in 2010, per the previous owner the "engine was purchased on E-bay with stated miles of 9,800". The logbook has 35 race weekends from that time until the end of 2023. There are also 3+ years of autocross in there with ~10 events per year.

Operating costs for me are the same as Jay's with one notable exception. In 2017, I was towing with an open trailer and went through a surprise downpour that resulted in water filling the intake and cylinders. I pulled the head and oil pan, dried everything out, reassembled and then ran it for another 6 years. It cost me a head gasket and a tube of RTV.

I have 2 weekends on the rebuilt engine. Its hard to put a practical number to a performance difference, my inconsistencies as a driver or the weather differences from prior events make lap time or data comparisons difficult.

I could give a lot of opinions, but for me the Honda balance between reliability, longevity and cost match what I want to be racing.

Matt Boian
FF 14

Base rebuild and dyno - $3500
Freight to and from - $560
Machine work - $375
Valves and seals - $598
Pistons/rings - $500
Mag crank - $75
Main and rod bearings - $340
Gaskets/seals/ect - $218
Clutch disk - $250
Misc parts - $166
Misc labor - $400