Blackhawk Farms simulator model (by ohyeah2389)

[ohyeah2389]

Hello everybody;

As I posted late last year in another thread (https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/sho...l=1#post657551), I have been working on a model of Blackhawk Farms Raceway for Assetto Corsa and Kart Racing Pro (with the potential for porting to other simulators, such as rF2). I have made a great deal of progress in the months since to where I believe the model is 90% complete (and 100% usable for training or familiarization).



However, with regards to the plan on finding a funding source, I have not made any progress. I have reached out to Blackhawk Farms' management asking permission or further information on running a crowdfunding campaign on Kickstarter or Indiegogo or some similar platform, but I have not received a reply in many months, even after sending a follow-up email and using an alternate email address in case the first one I used went to spam. I do not want to run a public campaign utilizing BFR's intellectual property, such as their name, logo, and likeness, without first obtaining legal permission to do so.

It is with this issue I come to ask you all for advice or help, as very few of the people on my Discord server have any significant means of helping me with this issue. I do not know why BFR has not responded to my email; I made sure to check my spam folders frequently in case their reply went there. If anybody who reads this (and is interested in helping with this project) has some better means of contacting BFR on my behalf, please let me know. I would really like to get this project off the ground, and I know I'm not alone in this-- many of my followers have expressed a great interest in this project as well.

[CrivitzChris]

I'm really hoping to see this track see the light of day. Basing things on what I have seen in the sim racing community, I'm sure you would have no issues with a release. I love the comment on rF2. I'm more of an rF2 guy so seeing the track make its way there would be awesome. I've done car conversions to rF2 before, but would love to give this a try as a track conversion. Same with your Road America karting circuit

As for track contacts, these are items you probably already know.

Track Owner: Paul Musschoot

Phone Number: (815) 389-2000 - I believe I called before asking about admission prices and the ladies there were really helpful

Email: mail@blackhawkfarms.com - Assuming this is what you used previously

Blackhawk Farms on Facebook - Maybe send a FB message?

I don't think I'll be at the track again until October. If I'm there, I could ask around the shop or front office to see if there is any possibility of getting the project escalated.

I really hope you are able to get what you need. I would hate to see the work you've done just fade away with out people being able to enjoy it.

[ohyeah2389]

I'm really hoping to see this track see the light of day. Basing things on what I have seen in the sim racing community, I'm sure you would have no issues with a release. I love the comment on rF2. I'm more of an rF2 guy so seeing the track make its way there would be awesome. I've done car conversions to rF2 before, but would love to give this a try as a track conversion. Same with your Road America karting circuit

I have very recently (as in the past week) started playing around with creating and converting some of my content over to rF2. rF2 (and I suspect gMotor games in general) require a strangely different formatting of model and material information that is a little jarring to me as compared to my experience for AC. In other words, some aspects are much more difficult. It also doesn't help that I use Blender primarily, and since the official GMT exporters are for 3DS Max 2021 and 2017 only, it was a bit harder for me to actually get anything in the game to start with. I eventually got some GMTs out of 3DSimED that were usable and I could start the graphical and physical material creation. In that process I learned that there are many things I do in the process of making tracks that save me time and don't impact performance much in AC that are less acceptable in rF2. All this is to say that I am looking into bringing BFR to rF2, but I'll probably wait until I get the model 100% complete as there's so much work I have to redo every time I export the track to rF2 as opposed to AC.

As for the contact info, I did try most of those, including mail@blackhawkfarms.com, marketing@blackhawkfarms.com, and I tried sending them a message on Facebook, but I haven't received replies to any of those. I'm not sure if calling them about this subject would be appropriate.

[CrivitzChris]

It's cool that you are staring to look into rF2. I'm in the same boat with my work with rF2. I don't know 3DSMax and my material knowledge when it comes to tracks in lacking. My work flow is very similar to yours which is to do the 3d work in blender, then use 3dsimed to get it to rF2. Using 3DSMax is probably better. I've seen differences with models exported from 3DSMax compared to 3DSimEd, but the difference isn't really much different.

If you haven't already, download and look at Dundrod by SVictor, or any of SVictor's tracks. Dundrod is pretty much the benchmark. Everything that he does is with free software, blender, gimp, etc. You should be able to look at his settings and materials to apply to BHF. He has several tutorials over on the rF2 forum, if you haven't looked at that yet.

[Keith Carter]

Same with your Road America karting circuit

More info please. Does this exist and is it available?

[Keith Carter]

Basing things on what I have seen in the sim racing community, I'm sure you would have no issues with a release.

I don't think there would be any issue with just releasing it as most release their work for free and there isn't anything to gain from litigation from the track owner. Quite the opposite result usually happens is that it gets enthusiasts driving it and the track ownership gets their name and facility publicized for free. I agree that there are probably lots of releases through Patreon where people have made financial gain off of a real world mod track releases without permission, but that doesn't mean that they can't be gone after if track owners wanted to pursue it. I think track owners have more important things to worry about though instead of hiring attorneys for a few grand or whatever someone would profit off of a sim racing mod they make. If funny though, if you do the math on some of these Patreon creators, based on their monthly subscriptions, they're making some serious money.

[ohyeah2389]

More info please. Does this exist and is it available?

It's available for Kart Racing Pro on my Discord server: https://discord.gg/9cv8aeQr6S

[ohyeah2389]

I don't think there would be any issue with just releasing it as most release their work for free and there isn't anything to gain from litigation from the track owner. Quite the opposite result usually happens is that it gets enthusiasts driving it and the track ownership gets their name and facility publicized for free. I agree that there are probably lots of releases through Patreon where people have made financial gain off of a real world mod track releases without permission, but that doesn't mean that they can't be gone after if track owners wanted to pursue it. I think track owners have more important things to worry about though instead of hiring attorneys for a few grand or whatever someone would profit off of a sim racing mod they make. If funny though, if you do the math on some of these Patreon creators, based on their monthly subscriptions, they're making some serious money.

I do plan to release the track for free, but only once it is funded. I do not intend to sell individual licenses to use the track, nor do I plan to host a Patreon page where people can "subscribe" with or without the promise of goodies in return.

What I plan to do is not dissimilar to how I already make money doing this, that is where person X approaches me and offers to, effectively, reimburse me for my time to create a track model of their choice, which I then release to the public once I have completed it and they have paid me for my work. In fact, this model started as that, but due to a huge mistake on my end, the client was not going to be able to pay me for it. What I plan to do, in short, is to run a Kickstarter/Indiegogo page where more than just one person can donate to the project, and if the cumulative donation amount hits the funding goal, I release the track to the public and receive the money.

The reason I want to get BFR's permission on this is because this is going to be a much more "public" method than the "single individual approaches me with money" approach. I'll be making posts about it on all of my social accounts to drive as much traffic to it as possible to have the highest chance of making it to the funding goal. I don't want BFR management to see that and not know what's going on and be worried, or misinterpret what I'm doing with the project. This doesn't seem to be one of those cases where it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission. Again, if it was a single source funding me and communicating with me in private, then to the track management's potential eye, all they'd see is that one day a model of their track pops up on the web for anyone to download and use at no charge. The only way I can see that being a problem is with one of those super-duper exclusive clubs for which they want to keep every ounce of "the experience" of driving their track to themselves and under their control, which I don't think is likely.

I also think that having BFR's name, logo, and such on the face of the project would help to drive traffic to it, as people might be more likely to notice and want to contribute to a project with "Blackhawk Farms Raceway" in its name than "Some Indistinct Fake Name Raceway". If I were selling individual copies of the track, I'd just do it under the latter name as most people who sell these types of models already do that to avoid having to pay licensing fees. I would think that I would not have to pay licensing fees if each copy of the track is free, but since I'm still making money off of my work involving their IP and logo and name and such, I don't really know for sure-- that's why I'm so desperate for answers here.

[Keith Carter]

I do plan to release the track for free, but only once it is funded.

Well, I plan on contributing to the cause once a channel opens up for doing so. I don't have any connections at Blackhawk, but hopefully someone here does. I believe just from my asking around I had a verbal pledge total of $500 to get Blackhawk created. I don't think it would take too much work to get you to where you need to be in order to release it. In the meantime, I'll be anxiously waiting as the progress images on your Discord server look fantastic. It would be a great addition to my collection of tracks I once competed on in real life.

[Keith Carter]

As for the contact info, I did try most of those, including mail@blackhawkfarms.com, marketing@blackhawkfarms.com, and I tried sending them a message on Facebook, but I haven't received replies to any of those. I'm not sure if calling them about this subject would be appropriate.

Someone from Blackhawk just posted on Facebook regarding track rentals and the preferred method of contact was stated as a phone call. Some personalities just prefer the phone. If all other attempts have failed, maybe a phone call is the answer to at least get you pointed in the right direction.

[Keith Carter]

As for the contact info, I did try most of those, including mail@blackhawkfarms.com, marketing@blackhawkfarms.com, and I tried sending them a message on Facebook, but I haven't received replies to any of those. I'm not sure if calling them about this subject would be appropriate.

Did anyone from Blackhawk management happen to respond to any attempts, Aaron? The images in the Discord server of your progress is incredible! Would you mind if I posted some of them here in hopes to stir up some more interest?

[ohyeah2389]

Did anyone from Blackhawk management happen to respond to any attempts, Aaron? The images in the Discord server of your progress is incredible! Would you mind if I posted some of them here in hopes to stir up some more interest?

I haven’t tried contacting them recently as I’ve been busy with other tracks like Club Motorsports; BFR management did not respond to those previous attempts but I did not try calling them.

Sure, you can post some of those screenshots.

[Keith Carter]

[Keith Carter]

[Keith Carter]

It's been a bit quiet. Any updates in being able to reach Blackhawk management for a licensing alliance or to at least get donations to cover your desired costs? It's getting cold out and sim season is in full swing!

[CrivitzChris]

Hello ohyeah,

I was talking with a local Milwaukee driver and he did seem surprised that you haven't received a direct response from the track. It's a pretty small organization there.

He suggested a possible alternative way to get an in. He suggested reaching out to Midwestern Council of Sports Cars. Currently MCSCC does a majority of their races at that track. I saw on their website that the did have a sim racing season in iRacing in 2022. At least they have some kind of sim racing experience.

https://www.mcscc.org/contact/#

I'm really hoping to get to the track at least once this year, I wasn't able to in 2024. If I am able to go, I'll ask around and see what I come up with.

[ohyeah2389]

Hello ohyeah,

I was talking with a local Milwaukee driver and he did seem surprised that you haven't received a direct response from the track. It's a pretty small organization there.

He suggested a possible alternative way to get an in. He suggested reaching out to Midwestern Council of Sports Cars. Currently MCSCC does a majority of their races at that track. I saw on their website that the did have a sim racing season in iRacing in 2022. At least they have some kind of sim racing experience.

https://www.mcscc.org/contact/#

I'm really hoping to get to the track at least once this year, I wasn't able to in 2024. If I am able to go, I'll ask around and see what I come up with.

I'll try reaching out to them. I've been working on other things than tracks recently, but the track is still there, ready to go. Also, to this end, I've created a Ko-fi account, which is a service sort of like Patreon, but more one-time donation based than subscription based. They offer donation goal tracking, which is how I'll track the funding for Blackhawk.

EDIT: Message sent through their general contact form. Fingers crossed...

[ohyeah2389]

Well I've got some really bad news:
I was able to get in touch with Blackhawk's Gail Shumowsky (event coordinator) and he replied to my email saying, in no uncertain terms, that they are not interested in their track being used on any computer racing game. That's not a "we won't give or sell you a license", that's a "do not make our track for a racing simulator". His exact reply was "We are not interested in any digital gaming system using our track."

I've got no idea where to go from here. That's worse than the worst outcome I could have possibly imagined. I'll of course be keeping the model, but it's extremely unlikely it'll ever get into the hands of the public, and even more unlikely that I'll ever see a cent for my work towards it. I guess that's just how freelance artistry goes sometimes. I suspect that even if I were to release the track for free, they'd be just as mad at me as if I carried out my plan without their permission, or even if I went so far as to sell licenses to models of the track.

I'm very sorry for not being able to deliver my work. It's very discouraging that there may be some tracks out there that we won't see on simulators, not for lack of data, lack of reference material, or lack of desire, but because the rightsholders of the track don't want it to be used for that.

[racpercival]

Honestly, I have been following this thread and really love driving Blackhawk and would love to have it on rfactor2.

However, I never commented, as I did not want to discourage anyone. I knew that would never agree.

I won’t go into the reasons that I predicted this outcome, but I would only say it may have to do with a pair of eyeglasses.

[Keith Carter]

That news, without a doubt, sucks beyond anything I could've thought. One of those cases where it's better to ask for forgiveness than to get permission. When the version for Nascar HEAT was done, it was just created and released. Not sure what logic there is to not want a sim version of the track, but it can't make much sense.

[racpercival]

Yes Keith. I’ve been dealing with them for a long time, As a test, call them and tell them that you see lots of free weekdays and you want to rent the track for a test day for 5 or 6 cars and see their pricing structure. It’s a crazy way of pricing. That is just one thing. They are other examples that don’t make sense, but I don’t want to put those on here,