Scca eliminated classes

[BLS]

"Since VW and Ford have little interest in..."

True. One wonders why they are so deficient they cannot see how racing sells product regardless of the fact it's a 1999 Miata...
Imagine showing off the fact that your decades old power plant beats the latest from Honda. Or that racing series around the world rely upon a flat 4 cylinder engine designed in the 40's.

SCCA isn't the only deficient group at thinking.

[Chris Livengood]

What real value do a couple of thousand MX-5's or Miata's or a couple dozen Zetec FC's have? About none of if you are the OEM.

[Hardingfv32]

SCCA is putting a ton of eggs in the SM basket and I worry that because those cars so easily cross over to literally any other racing organization, sooner or latter SCCA SM drivers will notice there are some really neat things happening at new orgs like GridLife and the various endurance racing groups.

Maybe that is the whole point of this class reduction at HST events. SCCA wants to insure that these popular classes get quality track time and want to stay with SCCA.

Brian

[E1pix]

Showroomstock Car Club of America.

I remember when street cars first raced at the 1975 Sprints… couldn’t believe my eyes, or ears. Even at 14, I felt like that was the start of the death of the Glory Days.

Well, it took fifty years. Too bad that in all that time, no wiser heads prevailed over that punk with a clipboard.

I guess even the dead- and dumb-obvious wasn’t quite obvious enough to the “experts.”

[Hardingfv32]

Are the regions "forced" to hold a HST event? What happens if the NE and SE regions just say no to the HST designation?

And what the H is up with the West Coast gets to keep the FV/FF?F600 class group? How does that make any sense?

A) The Regions request HST events, not required. The largest region in SCCA, San Francisco, switched from HST to Major because it gives them the freedom to add regional classes to the event for a financial gain.

B) I would say the reason that the exceptions were made for the West coast events is that SCCA wants them to remain HST. These events do not have any over subscribed sessions, so SCCA has no concern about session quality. 2024 SHT Buttonwillow event had 130-140 entrants with the largest session at 25 cars.

Brian

[John Nesbitt]

Showroomstock Car Club of America.

I remember when street cars first raced at the 1975 Sprints… couldn’t believe my eyes, or ears. Even at 14, I felt like that was the start of the death of the Glory Days.

Well, it took fifty years. Too bad that in all that time, no wiser heads prevailed over that punk with a clipboard.

I guess even the dead- and dumb-obvious wasn’t quite obvious enough to the “experts.”

Street cars have raced in SCCA since pretty much forever. Think James Dean and his Porsche 550 and Speedster.

It's OK to feel nostalgia for the cars of our youth (I certainly do), but we live and function in the here-and-now. Among today's simple truths are a multitude of competing organizations, expensive track rentals, preference for spec or semi-spec cars (whether SM or SRF), arrive-and-drive, and drivers who see themselves as "customers" more than "members".

[BLS]

A) The Regions request HST events, not required. The largest region in SCCA, San Francisco, switched from HST to Major because it gives them the freedom to add regional classes to the event for a financial gain.

B) I would say the reason that the exceptions were made for the West coast events is that SCCA wants them to remain HST. These events do not have any over subscribed sessions, so SCCA has no concern about session quality. 2024 SHT Buttonwillow event had 130-140 entrants with the largest session at 25 cars.

Brian

Thanks for the answer, Brian.
I take it then that if the region wishes not to have the HST designation, they can reject it, hold a majors race, and not exclude classes. It would seem the best place to fight the elimination of formula cars is at the region level then.
In the SE three of the races end up as HST events, eliminating half the majors level races for FV/FF/F600.

[John Nesbitt]

Thanks for the answer, Brian.
I take it then that if the region wishes not to have the HST designation, they can reject it, hold a majors race, and not exclude classes. It would seem the best place to fight the elimination of formula cars is at the region level then.
In the SE three of the races end up as HST events, eliminating half the majors level races for FV/FF/F600.

Yes, that is half or more of the answer. The other part is the BOD.

This HST race group is almost certainly the work of the National Office, whose baby HST is. If the BOD becomes convinced that this prioritizes the interests of the National Office over those of the Regions and members, it can direct Topeka to roll back these changes.

[E1pix]

Street cars have raced in SCCA since pretty much forever. Think James Dean and his Porsche 550 and Speedster.

It's OK to feel nostalgia for the cars of our youth (I certainly do), but we live and function in the here-and-now. Among today's simple truths are a multitude of competing organizations, expensive track rentals, preference for spec or semi-spec cars (whether SM or SRF), arrive-and-drive, and drivers who see themselves as "customers" more than "members".

I call Nonsense — unless you were joking (as it seems you had to be).

Not sorry if I see no parallel between a Porsche Super 90 and RSK compared to early SS cars like Saab 99s, Pintos, Vegas, and others with stock exhaust, squealing tires, and embarrassing show quality.

The “Here and Now” is not a mystery, but rather a direct result of decades of inexcusable, ego- and power-driven decisions made by board members who are simply incapable of moving forward by LISTENING.

The new, competing sanctioning bodies would have likely never existed had SCCA been diligent in *respecting the input and finances* of its member-customers — instead of continuing the circular file response to those providing input (*while paying* for the Club’s very existence!).

Would track rental be affordable if fans were allowed in?
Fans who become drivers, sponsors, workers, spouses, parents, etc.?
Any steps taken to replace those at the track who are aging out?

A big SKUSA race draws in 800 karts, many whom make careers all the way up to Indycar (and with Speed and Sergeant, two F1 drivers) — while virtually none “move up” to SCCA.

Many of the faster SKUSA teams spend *more* than our FF guys, so how can they get 50+ karts in a class while we get 10 FFs?

Is karting dismissed and excused, or justified as being “lower-level and insignificant?”

What % of SCCA’s budget would it take to fund one season for a SKUSA champion winning their premiere class?

So far as suggesting “spec-class preference” was somehow unrelated to their Creators makes me… see funny.


59 years after my first race viewing, we bought a Vee in 2022 — and were finally, absolutely, all-in — literally willing to trade a property to retire in to do it. We were even considering making a business out of it over time, to further the class and other racers just wanting an easier in. People we know — friends, comrades, past racers, karters, hundreds who know us from VW forums, etc., — would have jumped in if we’d done it.

Some infrastructure concerns intervened, so we drove 5,000 miles roundtrip to the VIR Runoffs to find answers. We were there nine days through Noon Monday (Thanks VIR for letting us stay Sunday!), two of maybe fifty total who weren’t participants, with three or so other “fans” camped near us on Friday and Saturday— one whom we’d invited.

Road Atlanta routinely had twenty or thirty thousand fans.
Mid-Ohio had big numbers, too… where did they all go?


In my longtime group of lifetime racer friends since the ‘70s sits at least 30 (Edited, with more thought it’s closer to 100) National Championships. Around a dozen of them still race in their sixties to eighties, but not one raced at the Runoffs this year. They’ve all privately answered why they don’t, and those answers parallel this post.

Most of what we heard from members at VIR, and in threads here, is wits-end frustration in new equipment demands that are expensive in the least — if not having corruption in only benefitting the providers.

Meanwhile, almost nobody from the Club seems to have the balls to address any of that on these threads. Exceptions are some passionate guys who’ve almost single-handedly saved FC, one being with SCCA, and the benefits seemed clear (33 FCs at Indy in 2021!). Cloning needed, and needed indefinitely.

Another named “DSR31” or something finally blundered in earlier this year, and was downright cocky, argumentative, and dismissive — and that told many of us the entire story *at last*.

Good timing that we sold.
Heart wants to try again.
Brain knows better.
Looking at properties now.

To Hell with The Dream, but will Topeka care?
(asked and answered)

“RIP, SCCA” may well not be premature.

[Hardingfv32]

In the SE three of the races end up as HST events, eliminating half the majors level races for FV/FF/F600.

Of the three NE HST events, then Glenn would be the only event with a decent head count. VIR the next closest with 160-170 entrants with two sessions/groups at 30-32 cars.

Frankly, it is starting to be hard to understand what the BRD is trying to accomplish with this new HST schedule. Sessions/groups are simply not over subscribed at all but a few HST events.

Brian

[John Nesbitt]

I call Bull**** — unless you were joking, as it seems you had to be.

Not sorry if I see no parallel between a Porsche Super 90 and RSK compared to early SS cars like Saab 99s, Pintos, Vegas, and others with stock exhaust, squealing tires, and laughably-low speeds.

Your Club-typical comeback speaks loudly to what’s so very, clearly wrong — and this is obvious even to non-competing observers.

The “Here and Now” is a direct result of decades of horrible, inexcusable, ego- and power-driven decisions made by board members who are simply incapable of moving forward by LISTENING.

The new, competing sanctioning bodies would have likely never existed had SCCA been diligent in *respecting the input of its member-customers* — instead of continuing the circular file response to those providing input *while paying* for the Club’s very existence.

Would track rental be affordable if fans were allowed in?

You know, that pesky bunch that turn into drivers, sponsors, owners, workers, etc.?

What exact steps have been taken to replace all at the track who will age out? Anything?

When a SKUSA National kart race draws in 800 karts, many who go up to Indycar and virtually none to SCCA, is that dismissed and excused, or justified as being “lower-level and insignificant?”

59 years after my first race, we finally bought a Vee in 2022, and were all-in — literally willing to trade a property to retire in to do it. Who does that to realize a dream, then sees the light, and sells?

Some team infrastructure concerns intervened, so we drove 5,000 miles roundtrip to the VIR Runoffs to find alternatives. We were there for nine days, two of maybe fifty people total who weren’t participants. We had three or so other “fans” camped near us, but only Friday and Saturday— one whom we’d invited.

Road Atlanta routinely had twenty or thirty thousand fans, and Mid-Ohio big numbers, too… where did they all go?

In my longtime group of lifetime racer friends since the ‘70s sits at least 30 (Edited, with more thought it’s closer to 100) National Championships. Around a dozen of them still race in their sixties to eighties, but not one at the Runoffs. They’ve all answered why they don’t.

Most of what we heard from members at VIR, and in threads here, is wits-end frustration in new equipment demands that are expensive in the least, if not downright corrupt in only benefitting the providers.

Meanwhile, almost nobody from SCCA has the balls to address any of that here. An exception is the guy who’s almost single-handedly saved FC. Cloning needed.

Another named “DSR” or something finally blundered in earlier this year, and was downright cocky, argumentative, and dismissive — and that told many of us the entire story *at last*.

Good time to sell. To Hell with The Dream, but will Topeka care?
(asked and answered)

RIP, SCCA.

Do you feel better now?

The short answer to your rant is: The World Changed.

And, I must say that you are taking a pretty snooty line about/against street or lightly modified cars. In my neck of the woods, there is a Nissan Micra (now Versa) series - street cars with only safety mods, essentially identical. And relatively inexpensive. Large fields, hugely entertaining to watch. I spoke with some of the drivers. They universally got a blast out of the close, door-to-door racing.

So don't pontificate on how only purpose-built are 'real' racing cars. Racing is about racing.

[grapefarmeral]

Just support Challenge Cup, Driverz Cup, NEFV and FRP or break out the wine and cheese, the checkbook and switch to door slammers...

[FVRacer21]

........

Not sorry if I see no parallel between a Porsche Super 90 and RSK compared to early SS cars like Saab 99s, Pintos, Vegas, and others with stock exhaust, squealing tires, and laughably-low speeds.

Most of those cars ran rings around the TR3s and MG's of the same era - the original Miata (now 30+ years old) was a starship compared to all of us who owned British Sports Cars (not to mention the 240Z)

........................

The “Here and Now” is a direct result of decades of horrible, inexcusable, ego- and power-driven decisions made by board members who are simply incapable of moving forward by LISTENING.

The new, competing sanctioning bodies would have likely never existed had SCCA been diligent in *respecting the input of its member-customers* — instead of continuing the circular file response to those providing input *while paying* for the Club’s very existence.

Or if the members would have been satisfied with the limited classes in the 1970’s. Most of the classes came from member demand. Some of the problem was caused by the SCCA and catering to its internal classes, but most was outside influences.

Would track rental be affordable if fans were allowed in?

No - the tracks gave up on that as after the 70's, people did not turn out for amateur road racing. Whether NASCAR, Football or other sports, road racing will never return to the popularity of the 60's and 70's.

You know, that pesky bunch that turn into drivers, sponsors, owners, workers, etc.?

That was then - this is now - many kids do not even have a license, much less want to compete in auto racing. Street cars are too complicated and hard to work on today. Electric cars will be the future - not just as soon as some think. We are living in the digital age and all that that changes.

What exact steps have been taken to replace all at the track who will age out? Anything?

"Club" tracks are being built by the dozens, and most are not capable of supporting racing, if only from a paddock space consideration. That is the new model.

When a SKUSA National kart race draws in 800 karts, many who go up to Indycar and virtually none to SCCA, is that dismissed and excused, or justified as being “lower-level and insignificant?”

No one goes from karts to Indycar. All top forms of racing are now closed shops due to charters and field size limitations. Right now the biggest feeder of drivers for Indycar is wealthy Europeans and South Americans who have been shut out of F1 - and will be that way for the next 10 years. Most of those running F4 and similar series are wasting their money unless their last name is that of an existing pro racer.

59 years after my first race, we finally bought a Vee in 2022, and were all-in — literally willing to trade a property to retire in to do it. Who does that to realize a dream, then sees the light, and sells?

Don’t know what you bought, but we have 50+ cars running in the NE, races that rival some Majors.
Vintage is still going strong. If you bought to just go to the Runoffs, you still have Majors races. (and the new rules may have made it cheaper - intended or not.)

Some team infrastructure concerns intervened, so we drove 5,000 miles roundtrip to the VIR Runoffs to find alternatives. We were there for nine days, two of maybe fifty people total who weren’t participants. We had three or so other “fans” camped near us, but only Friday and Saturday— one whom we’d invited. Road Atlanta routinely had twenty or thirty thousand fans, and Mid-Ohio big numbers, too… where did they all go?

IndyCar used to get 100,000 fans to a race. Nascar 125K. Now Indycar and Nascar is hurting and they have to have concerts to bring people in. If Indy car gets 30k they are happy. It is not just us. Why go to the track when you can watch it on a big screen TV.

In my longtime group of lifetime racer friends since the ‘70s sits at least 30 (Edited, with more thought it’s closer to 100) National Championships. Around a dozen of them still race in their sixties to eighties, but not one at the Runoffs. They’ve all answered why they don’t.

I think only 1 or 2 out of those 30 could finish in the top half of the field. If you were in your 30’s and still running SCCA in the 1980’s you were considered old and a hanger on. Unless you were Paul Newman and had a Bob Sharp car. Or Harvey Templeton. (forgive me Dan Carmichael - you were an exception)

Most of what we heard from members at VIR, and in threads here, is wits-end frustration in new equipment demands that are expensive in the least, if not downright corrupt in only benefitting the providers.

In 1979, if someone said - you guys are crazy - we need to go back 40 years to 1939 - that's when racing was better - we would have laughed in their face. There are golden ages and we were very lucky to be in one. In the meantime we complain, threaten to leave and don’t, and keep making the same excuses. When Carly Simon sang “These are the good old days”, they might not be OUR good old days, but must we begrudge others?

.

ChrisZ

[J Weida]

It would be nice if some of you listed your name. It would give your comments more credibility in my opinion. Instead just a screen name , that just makes me wonder?

[E1pix]

And, I must say that you are taking a pretty snooty line about/against street or lightly modified cars. In my neck of the woods, there is a Nissan Micra (now Versa) series - street cars with only safety mods, essentially identical. And relatively inexpensive. Large fields, hugely entertaining to watch. I spoke with some of the drivers. They universally got a blast out of the close, door-to-door racing.

So don't pontificate on how only purpose-built are 'real' racing cars. Racing is about racing.

Not that it matters John, but I edited and clarified while you were posting…

I said nothing “snooty,” or at least that’s not what I think.… I agree with “racing is racing” in general terms, but variety is a cornerstone, too.

Okay, lawnmower racing isn’t a passion. I’ve said it. ;-)

What I did do is reply to your comment that compared early Showroom Stock to the “stock” cars running in E Production in the day.

Spec Miata is great fun to watch, the other — What, six? — mostly-stock classes (didn’t T1 and T4 just recently die?), not so much.

I was also advocating for “formula car racing” — on a forum almost entirely dedicated to Formula cars — and it almost seems that you’re not.

[E1pix]

It would be nice if some of you listed your name. It would give your comments more credibility in my opinion. Instead just a screen name , that just makes me wonder?

Agree and understand your comment.

Mine’s at the bottom of my posts.

Most here (and myself) have real names in our profiles, too.

[John Nesbitt]

..

What I did do is reply to your comment that compared early Showroom Stock to the “stock” cars running in E Production in the day.

..

I was also advocating for “formula car racing” — on a forum almost entirely dedicated to Formula cars — and it almost seems that you’re not.

In point of fact, if you read my comment, I was pointing out that people raced street cars in SCCA long before the Seventies. And, just FYI, James Dean raced in the Fifties.

As for the rest, we shall have to agree to disagree. I am content to be judged on my commitment to open wheel based on my actual participation as a driver (exclusively open wheel) and volunteer.

[TimH]

So don't pontificate on how only purpose-built are 'real' racing cars. Racing is about racing.

Datsun 510.

[E1pix]

Sorry, I didn’t mean to confuse BS with SSB.
(think you know I’m kidding, and some might be old enough to know those ^ classes)

The last Runoffs win by a 510 (to my knowledge) was by one of the friends I noted above. He went to vintage, and certainly not because he couldn’t win a second title.

It’s easy to pick on anyone when they’re POed at the Club.

It’s waaay more productive to understand why they are, while there’s still time. Same thing happened a few weeks ago, from a guy whose P2 car may not quite be big enough for a proper flower garden.


John, we’re just confusing “street car” (Showroom Stock by its definition) with the obvious thousands of street cars modified to race. Silly we got caught up in just that, your point is taken.

Yes, I know the who, what, and when of poor Dean (and his racing), and it seems he had real potential. The missing 550 (which I wrongly called a RSK) is a common topic on the Autosport forums. Very ironically, a “road house” client near Denver is awaiting a backlit sign I recently designed that includes a likeness of James. Poor Dean died way too soon, but at least it was close to instant.

Edit: This is a worthy documentary, as are several others:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2wKp1u...VudGFyeQ%3D%3D

[RideMore]

Reid and team,

I completely agree with every point in your last post (well made points BTW), except that the the SCCA is toast. I still think we could put people like you on the BOD soon and the club would recover just fine.

Lastly, your point about the cost of getting a car/drivers gear out for one event that has been off the track for a year or more: Your right there is a certainly a significant cost to getting it up to the latest tech spec. But if we don't get those cars out on track -
1. The value of that car will continue to drop as it ages even further from the "current Spec"
2. The value will drop like a rock if the class goes away due to low participation
3. Whomever is not driving the car won't have the fun of driving the car.

I see it this way, we don't have a choice but to have a grass roots effort to save the class and fix the BOD.

[Bob Wright]

There is a lot of information, speculation, and frustration in this thread. I have any number of thoughts and observations floating around in my head, and not sure how to articulate them.

1) In defense of SCCA and its various boards and management: They have been actively trying to solve the issue of too many classes and bad experiences at the majors/HST events for at least a couple of years. It's no secret the SRF and SM classes have been subsidizing the under subscribed classes and have a legitimate beef about it. Why they simply don't eliminate the bottom ten classes (relegate them to regional status) is probably partially political....

2) The world has changed...track time is much more expensive today. There are many more choices where to race; read dilution. Life has got in the way of racing. There are fewer and fewer people interested in both prepping and racing their cars hence the rise of arrive and drive spec classes and series. Technology advances, and that adds to the cost. Racing is expensive but as far as I can tell, there is no shortage of money "in the paddock", its simply where that money gets spent. I'm sure I'm missing many things that affect why we race and why we don't.

3) I don't think racing is "dying", it's just changing. There are new private club tracks being built all over the country, some are serious racetracks, some merely track day tracks of little interest to experienced drivers (Flatrock just opened to members and I think it qualifies as a real racetrack). TT, HPVE, TNA, WRL and etc. are all well subscribed. Chin Driving Experience had more than 65 days on a multitude of first rate tracks a couple of years ago and have since added to it- and you wonder why it's so difficult to get a track date...

So...what do we do about this? First off, everybody should ask yourself whether the runoffs are the be all, end all target of your racing experience. Clearly there are only so many OW drivers pursuing that goal, which is why we find ourselves writing this thread. I think any number of people who profess to be upset about the rule change never have and will never attend the runoffs. So get over it. It's not like the path to the runoffs has been cut off; it's only been changed; is that really so important?

There is a lot of racing available: FRP (yes, I'm bias), SVRA, VRG, Challenge Cup, the SCCA regional championships such as MARRS, SAARC and more. The guys in the Pacific have a viable series going for both FF and FC. There are other options, I'm sure. The FV's in New England have proven that with a little organization you can have great FV racing on the regional level.

We have a great forum here with Apexspeed- use it. Organize, promote, cajole and get people to just go racing somewhere. Suggest focused events and promote it to your friends and fellow competitors. It's not easy, as I can tell you from 20 years of FRP, but it is doable.

[RideMore]

It's no secret the SRF and SM classes have been subsidizing the under subscribed classes and have a legitimate beef about it. .

Bob, just some quick math: Per the two year average on participation numbers at majors: 30% of the participants are SM, SRF, and FE. Therefore 70% are not those classes.

That's not to say that FF etc. have enough participants. It's just to point out that more than 2 of 3 cars at the track are not SM, SRF, and FE.

[Bob Wright]

That's an interesting reality. Perception can enter this world:

June Sprints 2024, arguably as big as the runoffs: 226* entries that were listed as qualifying out of 558 is ~40%.

SM- 70
SMX-62
SRF-72
FE2-22

Other HST and Majors events had varying entries and some that I paid attention to (actually, I pay attention to all of them) had glaringly poor OW entries.

*Data from Race Monitor, your view may vary

[brian styczynski]

Thanks for the answer, Brian.
I take it then that if the region wishes not to have the HST designation, they can reject it, hold a majors race, and not exclude classes. It would seem the best place to fight the elimination of formula cars is at the region level then.
In the SE three of the races end up as HST events, eliminating half the majors level races for FV/FF/F600.

That Region might be getting a few letters this week. I know of several people planning on racing Homestead and sebring, but now staying home. That Homestead event may start calculating losses due to sebring super tour exclusions as the letters start coming. I know they spent money on getting a Homestead broadcst leading up to Sebring to draw a bigger field this year. Hopefully a grassroots attempt at getting people to wake up does something.

[aws21]

This is bull@#@# from the board about how over subscribed the HST races are. There are only two times I saw so far, based on 2024 participation at HST events that the entries exceeded the track maximum. One was Sebring where they were over by two cars in SM and the other at the June Sprints at Road America. I didn't analyze every event. Nothing needs to change! However, I plan to send the following to the CBC board, just because my logic is just as good their nonsense. A line right from them but exchanging SMX instead of FF,FV,F600. No disrespect to SMX drivers, just making a point.


I propose the following to the board. Instead of messing with the FF, FV, and F600 classes, SMX will have bonus U.S. Majors Tour® event opportunities at select Regional event weekends, which will earn U.S. Majors Tour Conference points (but not be eligible for Hoosier Super Tour points). These will be added to the event calendar at several tracks hosting Hoosier Super Tours....

This proposal will provide valuable additional entries to struggling Regional races, providing much needed additional revenue.

Thank you.

[Dave Gomberg]

...
3) I don't think racing is "dying", it's just changing. There are new private club tracks being built all over the country, some are serious racetracks, some merely track day tracks of little interest to experienced drivers (Flatrock just opened to members and I think it qualifies as a real racetrack). TT, HPVE, TNA, WRL and etc. are all well subscribed. Chin Driving Experience had more than 65 days on a multitude of first rate tracks a couple of years ago and have since added to it- and you wonder why it's so difficult to get a track date...

Bob, pretty much everything in your post is right on. I just want to comment on one part. I (and others) am not saying "racing is dying", but rather SCCA Road Racing is dying. You have stated several reasons it is dying. There are others as well.

Dave

[Amon]

Bob,

Adding to your initial post per the June Sprints, I believe the FV totals were 20 cars based on Race Monitor..

That's an interesting reality. Perception can enter this world:

June Sprints 2024, arguably as big as the runoffs: 226* entries that were listed as qualifying out of 558 is ~40%.

SM- 70
SMX-62
SRF-72
FE2-22

Other HST and Majors events had varying entries and some that I paid attention to (actually, I pay attention to all of them) had glaringly poor OW entries.

*Data from Race Monitor, your view may vary

B

B

[FVRacer21]

I need to vent - I am trying to do an analysis of the 2024 points and between regions, divisions, conference races, Super Tour races, etc, To quote Charlton Heston in the the first Planet of the Apes " "You maniacs! You blew it up!"

My idea of a driver seeding is looking better all the time....

ChrisZ

[EYERACE]

It seems pretty clear to me an answer might be for as many people as possible to lobby the Regions that would put on an HST to have them change it to a Major. It might be a little late for the January '25 Sebring and March '25 Atlanta and April '25 VIR

If Regions stopped putting on HSTs.......problem solved. Go to Regional Meetings and voice displeasure of HSTs...and send messages to Regional Officials.

I know little...........which y'all already know......but what is the advantage (is there an advantage?) to a Region having an HST over a Major?

[FVRacer21]

It seems pretty clear to me an answer might be for as many people as possible to lobby the Regions that would put on an HST to have them change it to a Major. It might be a little late for the January '25 Sebring and March '25 Atlanta and April '25 VIR

If Regions stopped putting on HSTs.......problem solved. Go to Regional Meetings and voice displeasure of HSTs...and send messages to Regional Officials.

I know little...........which y'all already know......but what is the advantage (is there an advantage?) to a Region having an HST over a Major?

The 2024 Sebring Super Tour Race Director was Kathy Barnes from NER.

I think the region of record is just an administrative thing as multiple regions are involved.

Along with National Staff.

I think how these races are picked is above my pay grade.

Maybe someone in the know can comment?

ChrisZ

[John Nesbitt]

The 2024 Sebring Super Tour Race Director was Kathy Barnes from NER.

I think the region of record is just an administrative thing as multiple regions are involved.

Along with National Staff.

I think how these races are picked is above my pay grade.

Maybe someone in the know can comment?

ChrisZ

HST events are very similar in organization to any event - there is an organizing Region that puts on the weekend. The Region gets the sanction, insurance, etc. The Region rents the track and track services, etc. The difference from other events is that the National Office supplies (imposes) a template for the event - supps, race groups, leading officials. And the National Office collects a per-entry fee from the Region for the privilege of staging an HST.

The critical point for the Region is that it takes on all the business risk. National Office collects its fees off the top, and any remaining profit (or loss) goes to the Region.

Obviously, the National Office wants large, marquee events at destination tracks - this is the Super Tour, after all. Any negotiating room that the Region has comes from having the franchise for a particular track, exceptions being the Glen and Road America, where two Regions share.

[rockbeau25]

There's 8 hours of track time per day, they're going to allocate it to those who show up the most.

Vee is the 7th most participated class in the SCCA. FF is still in the top half at 13th. F6, okay sure. Of course, it's an easy copout for the SCCA to say this is the smallest run group, goodbye, when there are 3 (now 2) classes in this run group as opposed to the 5 or so classes that make up most of the other run groups. Make the run groups at HST events FC-FF-FV and FA-P-FE2. Then we would have two medium-sized, balanced groups, rather than one large group and one small group. FC and FF are together at the Runoffs from now on anyway, why not start getting them acclimated to sharing the same track? It's a better alternative than telling certain classes they can't race.

While we're on the topic of participation, the GT1-GT2-GT3-GTX-T1-T2-AS group only has one class that is in the top half of participation, so why didn't they start there? Hint: CRB.

I still have not seen a good reason why there is this desperate push to save track time all of a sudden. Classes come and go, but the overarching event structure and class groups have existed just fine for a very long time. And no, don't say the Runoffs.

[John Nesbitt]

.. There's 8 hours of track time per day, they're going to allocate it to those who show up the most.

..

Vee is the 7th most participated class in the SCCA. FF is still in the top half at 13th..

I still have not seen a good reason why there is this desperate push to save track time all of a sudden. Classes come and go, but the overarching event structure and class groups have existed just fine for a very long time. And no, don't say the Runoffs.

The amount of track time per day is often (usually? always?) limited by contract. Sometimes with severe financial penalties for running overtime. So, consider that a fairly hard limit.

However, that 8 hours encompasses a bunch of non-racing time: pace laps and cool-down laps, victory laps, track cleanup. And.. And, the time sink imposed by the HST's time-certain schedule.

I was Chief Steward (they had not invented Race Directors then) for a race in the first iteration of Super Tour (Continental, as I recall). I was tearing my hair out because we had all this downtime between sessions, adding significantly to the day. The National Office would not budge - they wanted their pro-like show no matter what.

I wager that, by going to a following-group schedule like we have at ordinary events, and practising some strict clock discipline, HST could fit another run group into the weekend.

Try selling that to the National Office.

[Peter Olivola]

The amount of track time per day is often (usually? always?) limited by contract. Sometimes with severe financial penalties for running overtime. So, consider that a fairly hard limit.

However, that 8 hours encompasses a bunch of non-racing time: pace laps and cool-down laps, victory laps, track cleanup. And.. And, the time sink imposed by the HST's time-certain schedule.

I was Chief Steward (they had not invented Race Directors then) for a race in the first iteration of Super Tour (Continental, as I recall). I was tearing my hair out because we had all this downtime between sessions, adding significantly to the day. The National Office would not budge - they wanted their pro-like show no matter what.

I wager that, by going to a following-group schedule like we have at ordinary events, and practising some strict clock discipline, HST could fit another run group into the weekend.

Try selling that to the National Office.

Welcome to the world of media controlled events. The time certain schedule is a creature of the broadcast of Runoffs races. There is also the competitor desire to be able to tell friends and family when they will be racing.

Personally, I hate media controlled events. I worked pro series that were rigidly tied to them. That's exactly what I see in the HST program. Did I mention I hate media controlled events?

[John Nesbitt]

Welcome to the world of media controlled events. The time certain schedule is a creature of the broadcast of Runoffs races. There is also the competitor desire to be able to tell friends and family when they will be racing.

Personally, I hate media controlled events. I worked pro series that were rigidly tied to them. That's exactly what I see in the HST program. Did I mention I hate media controlled events?

And heaven knows, HST gets huge media play.

[rockbeau25]

I wager that, by going to a following-group schedule like we have at ordinary events, and practising some strict clock discipline, HST could fit another run group into the weekend.

This.

I'd also wager that putting the groups that frequently cause delays at the end of the schedule would also immensely help things. Or at least then they're only robbing themselves of track time when they can't behave.

[Mike B]

This.

I'd also wager that putting the groups that frequently cause delays at the end of the schedule would also immensely help things. Or at least then they're only robbing themselves of track time when they can't behave.

Hint: he's not talking about FV or FF or any other non-spec class.

[John Nesbitt]

Hint: he's not talking about FV or FF or any other non-spec class.

In my experience, barring incidents that require multiple ambulances or a medevac, it is track oiling that is the typical schedule-killer. Small Bore and Big Bore are disproportionately the affected groups. A single 911 can oil 2 miles of track without breaking a sweat. SMs and SRFs, whatever their other faults, seldom puke their guts all over the track.

[Mike B]

SMs and SRFs, whatever their other faults, seldom puke their guts all over the track.

True, but SMs move barriers and have multiple car pileups on the straights. This season it seemed that there was extended clean up after almost every SM session at Road America. I don't know why the SCCA needs extra time on the weekends for this because they always gave SM their full session, even if it meant extending their time slot to 60+ minutes. Always at the cost of the open wheel groups.

[Lotus7]

True, but SMs move barriers and have multiple car pileups on the straights. This season it seemed that there was extended clean up after almost every SM session at Road America. I don't know why the SCCA needs extra time on the weekends for this because they always gave SM their full session, even if it meant extending their time slot to 60+ minutes. Always at the cost of the open wheel groups.

If you weren't aware by now, Mazda 'owns' scca; the money they pour in is way more than just the superficial stuff we see on the surface. (I have this direct from a he-who-knows, and it sure isn't hard to believe).
It's not just "at the expense of the open wheel guys", its whoever is after them in the days schedule.
"Fair" or not, we can accept it, or move on. Tilting at windmills did no one any good, ever.