Yeah but turn that around the other way: why can't we learn from NASA? Go take a look around their website. It's much more user friendly. Same with their schedule, both for the year and for each event.
Personally I like SCCA class rules much better because it allows room to tinker and avoids grey areas better, but I can still see why their simple p/w ratio rules are popular...
And none of this regional vs national nonsense...
NASA really does do a bang up job with their website. The SCCA should absolutely be copying their answers, if you will, in that realm.
Another thing I had a stellar experience with was getting a minor, common sense rulebook change. It was literally simple as emailing the national TT director a whopping two emails then the rulebook being updated in a matter of a few days. No drawn out discussions/debates, no drama, etc. Literally just an email chain four messages long. It honestly felt too easy.
There certainly are some lessons to be learned from other organizations. However, I it seems like they often fall on deaf ears simply because "We've always done it this way, and we're not changing!" Truly a shame.
Something else I feel is noteworthy as a young person that's around other young people who are in racing or interested in racing. The SCCA has such a bad image amongst Millennials. The vast majority of them just see the SCCA as a retirement community ran by a good ol' boys club with convoluted rulebook the size of an encyclopedia that requires a law degree to understand. It's extremely off putting to a lot of folks, to say the least. To be frank, if I wasn't racing open wheel stuff I wouldn't touch the SCCA with a 10 foot pole.
SCCA B*tch Session
This thread seems like a SCCA complaint session.
SCCA compelling and differentiating feature are the Run Offs, where who is best in the country is decided. They need to focus on getting that right. To build the importance of the Run Offs, they need to be consistent in their messaging.
SCCA can start by having the Run Offs at the same location for 10 years.
Locate the race more centrally, so that one area of the country is not over-represented and another area of the country under-represented. Why not COTA?
Hold Run Off class structure for 5 years.
Something else I feel is noteworthy as a young person that's around other young people who are in racing or interested in racing. The SCCA has such a bad image amongst Millennials. The vast majority of them just see the SCCA as a retirement community ran by a good ol' boys club with convoluted rulebook the size of an encyclopedia that requires a law degree to understand. It's extremely off putting to a lot of folks, to say the least. To be frank, if I wasn't racing open wheel stuff I wouldn't touch the SCCA with a 10 foot pole.
Where on earth would they get that idea??!!?
Well, SCCA does stand for Superannuated Codgers Club of America.Originally Posted by Pragmatist
... The SCCA has such a bad image amongst Millennials. The vast majority of them just see the SCCA as a retirement community r...
Where on earth would they get that idea??!!?
John Nesbitt
ex-Swift DB-1
Will Millennials every stop whining. No one can make them happy, do not expect SCCA come up with anything.
Brian
Well, SCCA Road Racing does skew very heavily older, white, and male. There is no denying it; just look around the paddock.
I contrast this with what I saw at an FRP event I entered at Summit Point. FRP was subletting from a motorcycle event. The composition of the paddock was utterly different, whether you measured by age, race, or gender.
And, whining about millennials every time somebody points out this simple fact just underlines the perception problem (and I write 'perception', not 'reality') that Road Racing faces.
John Nesbitt
ex-Swift DB-1
So the perception of millennials can be changed. One of the problems is they do 'want it now'. I've been to more than 1 local autocross where you do your own inspection and if you look at some of the millennial race cars they are death traps.
The SCCA and the old guys are full of "can't" and they don't like it. The TDOs and autocrosses just want payers - so self inspection is good in their book.
But - they can be "saved" or at least steered toward understanding how to do things correctly.
What SCCA is doing is asking for our help to specifically address these issues.
Reach out to the millennials. When I go to car shows I end up talking tech with the young people rather than the old days with the old people. They have a 'Fast and Furious' mindset (ugh) but they are also trying to do things - not much different than racers in the 50s and 60s.
I plan to take my FC to a couple car shows where I know the younger crowd will be and see if that peaks their interest.
Again, this thread is about improving car counts (and membership).
If we can advise the SCCA on what works I think they will follow through.
But we can't sit back and wait either.
Will Boomers ever stop whining about millennials whining? It seems Boomers aren't happy with the club either. Hence this thread.
Jim
Gen X is where it's at Bro.
Stonebridge Sports & Classics ltd
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Hate to be the bearer of bad news but millenials aren't the young people anymore. We've got kids and our first grey hairs.I don't usually race SCCA simply because all the FC racers drive with ICSCC where I live and ICSCC clubs host more events at the tracks within a day's tow from me, no other reasons. I have no negative feelings about the SCCA and it has nothing to do with the website, rules, rain lights, or any of that. Unfortunately I just don't have the budget to travel the country to do the majors tour and the runoffs and even if I did I don't have the time at this point in my life.
Two observations:
1. Most of the young'uns I run into working the SFR old folks races are Gen Z.
2. A quote I heard from local track management person "No one wants to come out and race with their great grandparents at SCCA"
Steve
According to the map shown on the webinar and the demographics - the SCCA right now is an East coast club - or at least west of the Mississippi. VIR is too east for many - Road America, Mid Ohio and Indy will be the front runners unless a track like Barber or Road Atlanta wants to get in on the action (I know people are pushing for Pittsburg - I think it needs more pro racing to get a reputation...)
The SCCA "owns" 2 tracks in California - but look at the numbers:
https://www.crbscca.com/public/parti...p?theYear=2023
https://www.crbscca.com/staffAdmin/p...p?theYear=2023
Most of the Western half had Majors with less than 100 entries. COTA and Thunderhill were the exceptions...
It may be just as simple as travel - many places in the EAST have 4 tracks within a 6 hour drive. Out West a 6 hour drive might be the closest single track..... You have to lead with your strength while building up the rest. Maybe we are big enough to have a "West Coast Championship" at COTA and once that gets over 400, then consider it for a National Championship - a true Runoffs - East vs West.
ChrisZ
All this Gen talk makes me realize I haven’t a clue what Gen I am.
Once we think we’ve mastered something, it’s over
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If you were born before 1965, you're a boomer.
“Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty.” -Peter Egan
ButtonWillow and ThunderHill are not owned by the SCCA. They are owned partially by CalClub and SFR and investors.
Both tracks are sold out - mostly to profitable non-scca events.
If you look at ButtonWillow February for 2023, its an anomaly. That is the SuperTour event that was basically flooded out.
They had big signups as usual, but many packed up and went home when the track and pits were underwater from an overnight storm.
I like the idea, but I think we need 3 championships to make it easier to get there.
COTA is NOT out west it's 2 time zones away from California. A 2 day drive from SoCal and 3 days from NorCal.
But if could be a good spot for the national championship.
Especially, when they are whipped by a great grandparent.
A HARD two day drive from SoCal pulling, especially given the terrain and truck traffic.
Even when people come from the east coast to visit, they usually just hit LA, Phx, or Vegas. Just the usual big cities. Leave Vegas to go to LA and the first thing you hit is a 38 mile long grade. The scale of the west is just not understandable to folks that live in closely packed places with high humidity where the horizon is a couple of miles away.
LA to COTA is 1200 miles, twice as far as Charlotte to Rd America. Miami to RA is about the same.
Peter Olivola
(polivola@gmail.com)
Very true. Folks in the East sometimes do not appreciate just how much West there is, especially the vast spaces of the plains and Southwest.
I worked an event at Miller once (great facility; flat, boring track(s)). Among the folks I spoke with (drivers and volunteers), the shortest distance that anyone had travelled had been from Las Vegas (~6 hours). People from Texas, Oregon, California, Arizona etc. One chap told me that he put 80-100K miles per year on his truck. Just an awful lot of miles between the Mississippi and the Sierra Nevada, even at 80mph.
Last edited by John Nesbitt; 07.13.24 at 5:14 PM.
John Nesbitt
ex-Swift DB-1
This is why my letter to the CRB included the suggestion of at least 3 runoffs across the country which then let to a smaller, shorter, but more prestigious national championship.
I live about 2.5 hr north of LAX. In the heyday of my career I bounced around between Northern Nevada, Vegas, and San Diego a lot. Ontario or LAX to fly out. I probably put 20K mi/yr on government trucks and rental cars. Wife's commute was short by CA standards, 25mi each way that took less than 25 minutes, but we still put about 30K mi/yr on her vehicle. The nearest mall was 90 miles away.
Miller is about 10 hr by car, more like 14 in an RV towing (650 mi)
I believe P.J. O'Rourke put it best when he said, "Old age and treachery always beat youth, enthusiasm, and a bad haircut."
Damn, I used to be the one with the bad haircut... 25 years later, I have to stick with treachery...
Not exactly. My house in Charlotte to Road America is 904 miles.
I just did a quickie google maps measure distance, not a road trip measurement.
If NASA seems friendly, you should try a WRL event. It is amazing how much simpler and better things can be outside of the SCCA structure. SCCA events seem to try to make things as complicated and cumbersome as possible.
I actually don't think there are plenty of FA cars out there. I think the class is suffering because competitive cars are very hard to purchase.
There is a massive disparity in performance among cars in the class. There are VERY few Swift 016s. I think fewer than 60 were ever built. Some portion of those cars are likely out of commission and some are just track day cars. Even adding in the 08s and 014s, the Swift car counts are too low across the country to ensure decent car counts in majors races.
There are of course other cars like PFMs. But they aren't very competitive. A bunch on the market and plenty being used as track-day cars. The price difference illustrates the lack of competitiveness. ($35k for a non-paddle PFM vs $150k for a swift 016).
I think to solve the car count problem, you need to either (1) reduce the performance of the swifts or (2) incentivize a manufacturer to produce in sufficient quantities cars that are competitive with the Swifts. I'd happily buy one if I could.
REMINDER: The follow-up webinar is tonight at 8pm EDT.
Currently with two majors and the Runoffs yet to be included, 12 classes have met the 292 entries automatic requirement. FP, HP, and FA are on the cusp, with STU and FC are the two that clearly won't make 292 but would be closer than all the others.
Dean Fehribach
Car owner: SCCA Enterprises FE2 #037.
Co-owner: SCCA C-Spec Mazda 3
Car owner: 2017 Ford Mustang EcoBoost Autocross STU
Boy, I called that one.
Van Diemen RF99 FC
Changes strictly determined by the make-up and conflicts of interest of the CRB. Prove me wrong.
It sure is frustrating seeing my investment rendered worthless for second time.
Mike Beauchamp
RF95 Prototype 2
Get your FIA rain lights here:
www.gyrodynamics.net/product/cartek-fia-rain-light/
I don't think anyone can, Mike.
Dean Fehribach
Car owner: SCCA Enterprises FE2 #037.
Co-owner: SCCA C-Spec Mazda 3
Car owner: 2017 Ford Mustang EcoBoost Autocross STU
Well at least they pretended to care for a little while by asking for input after the last webinar.
Who the hell wrote letters saying "spot on"?
They just killed the runoffs by turning into nothing more then a HST event.
Has tge webanar started? Im in zoom at 7:49 and its saying still waiting for host to start the meeting
Article and video up:
https://www.scca.com/articles/201876...e-2025-runoffs
Jon K - 1986 Swift DB3/Honda
With only sedans and spec classes. Or classes that are represented by a member of the CRB.
Mike Beauchamp
RF95 Prototype 2
Get your FIA rain lights here:
www.gyrodynamics.net/product/cartek-fia-rain-light/
Thank you, just watched it. Going to cause a lot of wheel spin for those who have to change their cars, but I don't see the runnoffs week feeling any different from a competitor time or cost perspective.
A lot was left unsaid. Since they are continuing to RAM their proposals into effect regardless of member input, I will assume the proposal from 2 months ago is going to be the new format. They did not mention Runoff length or super tour run groups. I will assume F6 is no longer welcome at super tour events and there will be 2 open wheel groups, FC, FF, FV and FA, P, FE2. I will also assume the runoffs will be 4 day plus test days, so expect $1500 entry fee +$800 test day, because as they made clear, that's where the money is, so, 4 test days?
My heart go out to F6 drivers. Hopefully they can get together to find a new home where the drivers and cars are appreciated and they can continue on. I hope other groups on the bubble start working on contingency plans, this club is ruthless. Again, so much was left unsaid in that video, but I guess we will have to sit on our hats for another 2 months until another tablet comes down from the mountain.....
And just to add salt in the wound....
Did you catch the change from 4.0 to 5.0 participation next year. (292 to 365 entries)
That basically means that if you didn't get in this time you won't next for certain because to get an average of 5 you'll have to achieve like 8 next year.
So if they average 4 this year and 5 next year, we have to make our shortages up:
FC shows 114 so far (3 races to go) so it's short (292-114) 178 + 365 = 543 entries next year to just survive.
FE2 shows 212 so far (292-212) 80 + 365 = 445 next year.
So I only see 3 or 4 classes that would actually meet the 5.0 attendance.
Way to encourage people to get out there.
One of the interesting groupings is FF and FC. Majors currently doesn't group them and when the car counts were low we used to ask for the FCs to move to the FF group. The response was always no, can't do that. Now what?
Last edited by BeerBudgetRacing; 08.16.24 at 2:47 AM.
292 total over TWO years, not one. The magic number for 4.0 average in a single year is 146 currently.
Dean Fehribach
Car owner: SCCA Enterprises FE2 #037.
Co-owner: SCCA C-Spec Mazda 3
Car owner: 2017 Ford Mustang EcoBoost Autocross STU
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