Flagtronic in car warning light system

[Peter Olivola]

Peter,
How did Flagtronics facilitate fast pick up of the leader by the pace car?

Is it because the Flagtronics has the GPS making the leader very easy to locate?

Yes, the GPS enables all Flagtronics equipped cars to be seen on screen crawl.

[Steve Davis]

Yes, the GPS enables all Flagtronics equipped cars to be seen on screen crawl.

To elaborate on this... the MAIN control for Flagtronics is in Race Control and there are generally at least 2 screens (provided by SCCA HQ (so far)) that are viewable by anyone in Race Control. The FT "OPERATOR" - a person experienced (hopefully) with the system CAN "FLAG" any single car on the track and that puts a BOX around that car in the display. This is GENERALLY the overall leader, but it is subject to the information and action to/by the FT Operator. In some classes the leader changes OFTEN and it's hard to keep up with all the other things going on. FT does NOT automatically 'find' the LEADER.. that's up to the FT/OP person. IF he/she is correct, (and it IS "mostly" correct), then anyone in RC can immediately find the leader - at least someone CLOSE to the leader. RC can also see WHERE the pace car(s) might be at any given moment (in addition to ambulances, wreckers and other EVs - all ID'd appropriately on the screen).

There are also 'other conditions' that are controlled by the FT/OP that.. if not done correctly, COULD cause a bit of confusion... THAT is much more of an issue than I ever expected before seeing it in action at NOLA.

It IS a pretty neat system, but does have it's limitations. It does NOT function in the msec range continuously.. there are sometimes delays depending on LOTS of factors.

Currently, it's also sometimes QUITE CONFUSING when *ALL* cars are NOT equipped with FT200s.. especially so, when the lead car(s) are NOT so equipped. THAT issue should resolve itself in the not too distant future.

Fortunately, from a driver viewpoint, MOST of the potential problem areas are ultimately controlled by the FLAG STATIONS .. but again, THAT is also a MANUAL ACTION taken by someone at the corner. Someone handles the actual FLAGS.. presumably someone ELSE (COULD be the same person - not REQUIRED to be someone else - just whoever has the CORNER CONTROLLER BOX) must take action to control the FT indications.

I wish I could be in RC at Mid Ohio next weekend to see how the SMX sessions go with 'total' FT.

Steve, FV80

[Peter Olivola]

I wish I could be in RC at Mid Ohio next weekend to see how the SMX sessions go with 'total' FT.

Steve, FV80

Check in with the Race Director early in the weekend and request permission to do just that.

[cory mcleod]

There are 'some' instructions on the website. I'd suggest that you contact 'romoman' (poster here). HE has come up with most of the answers and offered help to others in various posts regarding this option.

I should add.. it's not a 'trivial task'. It CAN BE DONE, but takes a LOT of knowledge and understanding about the protocols involved to actually come up with a FIX .. and most will be quite UNIQUE compared to the others.

Steve, FV80

Thank you Steve!

@CheckeredFlag - I have seen a list somewhere (maybe earlier in this thread) of the AIM systems that can be integrated - I believe mainly the current generation.

[romoman]

Yes, current RS3 configured systems can be integrated with the FT200. It depends a little on the ECU connection and logger, but it's mostly able to be done. It's really not too hard. I'm happy to help people out if they shoot me an email to matt@trailbrake.com

[Steve Demeter]

If I read Steve Davis's post correctly, the corner station could be showing one flag and the falgtronics could be showing a different condition because of the independent human operators on both ends. Right??

[John Nesbitt]

Caveat: I have not worked a Flagtronics event yet.

There is all kinds of latency built into the existing race control/flagging architecture. Adding Flagtronics will add more (or different) latency.

There is nothing yet in the GCR to indicate order of precedence.

Speaking for myself, I would obey the local flag. Especially one that indicates track condition immediately ahead.

[Steve Davis]

If I read Steve Davis's post correctly, the corner station could be showing one flag and the falgtronics could be showing a different condition because of the independent human operators on both ends. Right??

Not really... the RCFT unit can 'send' a command to all cars.. all stations or a specific car ID. The corner stations only control LOCAL (to them) flag conditions.. that OVERRIDE anything RCFT might be commanding... so a BFA issued by sitting chair in RC, would need to 'acted on' by RCFT control, but will still be overridden by any "issued" LOCAL flag commands for any station. At least that's the way it's SUPPOSED to work.
My mention of the 'responsibility' of the RC operator is more like when all cars leave the grid.. some times it's All yellows, sometimes it's all WHITES.. sometimes it's NOTHING. So the RC operator has to be ACTIVE and ON THE BALL. Say.. it's YELLOW till turn 12 at VIR.. RCFT has to (NEEDS to) set the proper yellow as the cars leave the grid.. and then CLEAR the RCFT command for each station as the last car passes each station. The proper corners will (should be) issuing their matching flag condition... but could change to WAVING or DEBRIS if something happens. RCFT has to CLEAR each flag station as the last car goes by so that when the T12 station yellow is dropped when the FIRST car passes 12.. but all prior stations remain yellow until the LAST car goes by.. each in turn. If RCFT is not active, when the last car has passed all stations (and they have each 'cleared' their local flag condition in turn), RCFT could still be commanding yellow. .. i.e. when the station goes NoFlag (NF), if RC has NOT also gone NF, then the FT200 would revert back to yellow.
I think that makes sense .... say RC calls for the Pace Car to STAY OUT on a start.. RCFT would immediately go FCY again as would all stations. Or something like that . RCFT can command ALL stations at once, or any one or more at a time.. again possibly overridden by any NON 'no flag' condition at any specific station.
I might not be describing this perfectly.. I have only seen it in operation once at one track.. the NOLA HST in February.
Steve

[924RACR]

From this weekend's MO Super Tour... Flagtronics implementation etc was definitely imperfect... and yet I was still happy to have it. I got very advance warning of one waving yellow during quali (damp track, not great visibility) on the middle of the back straight for a car spun on track by China Beach. Nice to have a few extra seconds to see what's up when you're over 130mph! (Group 5 - P1, P2, and FE2)

But there were other incorrect general notifications... local yellow on the front straight for what may have been a flat tow in the pits... disconnect/lag between green and checker laps... sounds from the above that these may be likely a lack of practice/alacrity in the human operator in race control...

[John LaRue]

The SMX class embraced Flagtronics and agreed to require it in all cars at Mid-Ohio last weekend. There were two opportunities to use the Virtual Safety Car (VSC) mode and it worked quite well. In one instance a car was able to be towed and the course cleared in 4 minutes. Had that not been available the session would have been black flagged which, at a minimum, would have cost 10 minutes. There will certainly be some hiccups with the system as our volunteers and racers become familiar with it. I am also sure that there are yet to be discovered inconsistencies in our rules/applications that we will stumble over, but in time I am a believer that this will help to improve the safety and administration of our races.

[RussMcB]

I wonder if you can "turn in" a gen 1 Flagtronics (my term), for credit towards the next iteration when it comes out.

If yes, I might get one now. I can see a personal benefit to having one in the car.

However, I had someone (who is familiar with Flagtronics and Aim integration), suggest I wait until the bugs are worked out before buying one.

[brian styczynski]

The SMX class embraced Flagtronics and agreed to require it in all cars at Mid-Ohio last weekend. There were two opportunities to use the Virtual Safety Car (VSC) mode and it worked quite well. In one instance a car was able to be towed and the course cleared in 4 minutes. Had that not been available the session would have been black flagged which, at a minimum, would have cost 10 minutes. There will certainly be some hiccups with the system as our volunteers and racers become familiar with it. I am also sure that there are yet to be discovered inconsistencies in our rules/applications that we will stumble over, but in time I am a believer that this will help to improve the safety and administration of our races.

I watched race 1 from the keyhole. There were several cars stuck in T1 gravel. All cars came thru the next lap at 35 mph all the way to the back straight where they appeared to accelerate to maybe 50 or 60. I could be wrong but I think they changed the condition from code 35 to double yellow and were picked up by a pace car while cars were towed out. It was interesting

[John LaRue]

VSC was only used in practice and qualifying in the SMX run group per the briefing that I received last night. I will inquire about the race. Thanks.

[brian styczynski]

I like it. I didn't have high expectations but figured I would put in the work to get it on the car. The first session I saw it change to yellow from below the cowl. It was in my periphery but it caught my attention. This happened several times throughout the weekend, sometimes I would scan further down track to see flagger, sometimes I would look down into cockpit at flagtronics. The debris flag was sometimes confusing, as in it took a couple seconds to realize what flag it was, but I am sure I will get used to it. I don't know why I need it counting my time on pit lane.

I am happy SMX volunteered to experiment with code 35, I think it will be a huge benefit down the line. It should cut down huge chunks of time wasted waiting for cars to catch up to pace car at some tracks. I heard it has allowed Watkins glen to do a "hot pull" for the first time in 15 years.

Anyway, my mind has been changed, I now think this is a valuable tool for a driver and race control. This doesn't change my opinion of how scca decided to force it upon us too soon, while ignoring member feedback. Hopefully tracks pick it up and spend money for systems and big led flag boards around the track.

[CheckeredFlag]

The SMX class embraced Flagtronics and agreed to require it in all cars at Mid-Ohio last weekend. There were two opportunities to use the Virtual Safety Car (VSC) mode and it worked quite well. In one instance a car was able to be towed and the course cleared in 4 minutes. Had that not been available the session would have been black flagged which, at a minimum, would have cost 10 minutes. There will certainly be some hiccups with the system as our volunteers and racers become familiar with it. I am also sure that there are yet to be discovered inconsistencies in our rules/applications that we will stumble over, but in time I am a believer that this will help to improve the safety and administration of our races.

I was one of those flaggers on Friday. Having done IndyCar events, I was familiar with the process and so were some of the others.

1. Without the light panel like IndyCar, it's easy to forget what your handheld (HH) is set to. So, you gotta take your eyes off the track to look at the HH.
2. Since the HH is battery powered, the screen dimming to save power was unfortunate. If the battery can't make it the whole day, either put bigger batteries in the unit or provide recharging power packs to the corners.
3. I wish the LED's for the buttons were bigger, too.
4. The IndyCar HH has a shoulder strap, keeping both hands free for work like holding a flag or making notes.
5. I do worry about the flags and the flagtronics disagreeing at stations; practice makes perfect.
6. RC calling over the net to remind a station of their state or asking about their state, while they're trying to be helpful, is truly helpful. But, I could see where some flaggers could see it come off as bossy (I'm not one of them).
7. Several of us are still hoping that when the VSC ends, all stations could wave the green signifying the change of state instead of just going dark.
8. I thought the VSC was a fantastic use of the tech.

[CheckeredFlag]

<snip>However, I had someone (who is familiar with Flagtronics and Aim integration), suggest I wait until the bugs are worked out before buying one.

I want to put it in our FE2, but not before the integration with the Formula wheel. Integration into the car dashes will not only save space, but darn near all of them are much bigger screens. Integration into the Aim Formula Steering Wheel(s) will be a game changer for the formula classes.

[Steve Demeter]

According to this BOD emo the on track flags take precedence


SCCA Fastrack News April 2024 Page 4
Motion to approve CRB Race Memo RM 24-05 GCR Section 6.1 Flags Addition related to in-
car flagging.
Motion - Steve Strickland
Second - Dayle Frame
RACING MEMO
ISSUED: May 9, 2024 NUMBER: RM 24-05
FROM: Board of Directors
TO: All Participants
SUBJECT: GCR Section 6.1 Flags Addition Related to In-Car Flagging
In GCR section 6.1 Flags, add as follows:
6.1 FLAGS
Flags convey the commands or information indicated below. They must be obeyed
immediately and without question. The content of this section cannot be amended by any
event Supplemental Regulations unless expressly approved by the Chairman of the Club
Racing Board, the Chairman of the Executive Stewards and the Head of Road Racing for
the purpose of incorporating in-car flagging system procedures

I guess that means for the time being that we need to follow thee flags held by the F&C folks

[Mike B]

According to this BOD emo the on track flags take precedence


I guess that means for the time being that we need to follow thee flags held by the F&C folks

As it should be.

[racerjon1]

I guess that means for the time being that we need to follow thee flags held by the F&C folks

I worked the Flagtronics system at Road Atlanta and VIR and will be heading it up at the Glen next week. I was hoping it would get said in driver's meetings (and I think it did) but if I could impart one piece of info for the folks with the unit:

"Until there is full adoption and everyone has it, there is no question that flags must take precedence. The signal that everyone can see must be the primary source of flag condition. So - if you have a Flagtronics unit, use it as a digital tap on the shoulder, as in 'hey, I know you're pretty busy right now, but make sure you double check the next corner station.' If at that point you see the flag you got extra warning, and if there isn't a flag you know there has likely been some human error in the digital process."

When we give the flag meeting, we tell the flaggers that it's cloth first, digital second. Sometimes this means the digital yellow is late/doesn't come, and sometimes it means the digital yellow might stay up longer than was necessary. As flaggers get used to it and we refine processes, this will smooth out I'm sure.

I'm glad to see the positive comments about folks experience with it, because while I liked the idea I had some skepticism even when I took the controls at Road Atlanta. Once I'd worked with it, I became a much bigger believer. It's not without its situations that need to be refined, but the foundations of how it works within the flagging procedures is phenomenal.

I'm not sure what the control room to impound proximity is at the Glen, but I'll make every effort I can to be able to answer questions.

If you run into Greg Amy (Driver Ambassador for the SM/SMX crowd) he has some good working knowledge at this point, and when he sat down with me at Road Atlanta his words were, "I want to learn about it so I can hate it from a position of knowledge instead of ignorance." Within two events he was instrumental in the entire SMX field having it at Mid Ohio.

[racerjon1]

I was one of those flaggers on Friday. Having done IndyCar events, I was familiar with the process and so were some of the others.

1. Since the HH is battery powered, the screen dimming to save power was unfortunate. If the battery can't make it the whole day, either put bigger batteries in the unit or provide recharging power packs to the corners.
2. The IndyCar HH has a shoulder strap, keeping both hands free for work like holding a flag or making notes.
3. RC calling over the net to remind a station of their state or asking about their state, while they're trying to be helpful, is truly helpful. But, I could see where some flaggers could see it come off as bossy (I'm not one of them).
4. Several of us are still hoping that when the VSC ends, all stations could wave the green signifying the change of state instead of just going dark.

Thanks for these notes, the ones I've selected to copy in particular.

Battery power: We can see all of the battery charge in the control station - and it seems to me there is plenty of charge left at the end of the day. I'll mention this and ask if there is or can be a way to keep the brightness up for those sunny-day situations.

Shoulder strap: This is a great one. We know that having to wave a flag and then "turn around and find" the corner station unit can cause a delay on each end of the flag condition. Some stations have made a "holder" for them so it can be mounted on a post, but I like the shoulder strap idea. I'll pass that along.

VSC ending: I personally spoke with Eric Prill about this for nearly an hour yesterday, and then when I spoke with our new Director of Road Racing (Jeff Barrow) later in the afternoon I found that he had been giving it thought as well. Expect to see us continue to refine that process. I'm not sure if it will be green flags at every station, but there will be procedure evolution.

[924RACR]

I'd have sworn that I saw something in either the Mid-O supps or pre-event communications (email, most likely) reiterating that the flag station shows the flag condition and is the "official" track status (such as for on course conduct, protests etc.), while the Flagtronics display is an advisory. But flag station condition takes precedence/overrides.

It was certainly clear to me going into the event that this was the case.

Then again, some are still just now finding out about FIA rain lights, so...