Soooo.....is SCCA FF dead?

[TimH]

About the only parallel is skiing, but you can go for a week, not three days....and skiing is dying as well.

A lift ticket costs much less than a track day, and it lasts all day. You can check your skis through with an airline, too. Still, there's something about racing a car....

[Rick Kirchner]

A lift ticket costs much less than a track day, and it lasts all day. You can check your skis through with an airline, too. Still, there's something about racing a car....

For a family of four at Mammoth, including the jacked up food costs, its about the same as a vintage weekend for me. And if you're somewhere between the Rockies and Appalachians and south of the mason-Dixon line there's the airfare....

[R. Pare]

About the only parallel is skiing, but you can go for a week, not three days....and skiing is dying as well.

Just as it is in too many things,facility owners made the grab for those with deep pockets,and it is now coming back to bite them Too high a cost to go to the Runoffs for too little track time. Too high lift ticket and hotel prices at too many ski areas - which is why I refuse to head west to go skiing.

It is sad watching it head in this direction.

[brian styczynski]

[QUOTE=billtebbutt;657163]

Runoffs Entries stopped being an accurate yardstick for the health of SCCA classes about the time mullets went out of style.

Wait - mullets went out of style????????????????????????

bt

They did, but they are back now and will be done again in a couple years. I am glad a new generation gets to have kids laugh at their yearbook photos and try to tell them, at the time, girls loved that haircut.

[TimH]

For a family of four at Mammoth, including the jacked up food costs, its about the same as a vintage weekend for me. And if you're somewhere between the Rockies and Appalachians and south of the mason-Dixon line there's the airfare....

Ah, but the whole family is out there on the runs with you. It's been a long time since I got any of them to come out and watch me drive around in circles. I still think the wife made a big mistake skipping Road America and Mid-Ohio, but at least she (and a daughter) enjoyed Montreal and Mt. Tremblant almost as much as a less-expensive ski trip.

I feel blessed to be able to do both, as long as I only need one or two sets of DOT tires per season.

[Steve Demeter]

As far as the ridiculous entry fees, why can the "old model" of tracks bidding for the opportunity to host the Runoffs and the entry fees were low to ZERO? I know that someone will have to take a BIG GAMBLE that the paying spectators will come out to watch hopefully strong fields. I remember pre 2006 at MO the spectator areas were simply packed to the gills!!! But I also recognize that times have changed.

[TimH]

RA and MO, and Laguna a little less, attract locals to watch. Other tracks not so much. Tony's goal for SVRA is to get enough sponsors to drive entry fees to zero - I wish him luck.

[romoman]

RA and MO, and Laguna a little less, attract locals to watch. Other tracks not so much. Tony's goal for SVRA is to get enough sponsors to drive entry fees to zero - I wish him luck.

The other fees in the weekend make the Runoffs look like a bargain!

[cjahn]

The other fees in the weekend make the Runoffs look like a bargain!

My entry at RA in 2009 runoffs with an S2 between parking and entry fees was at least $1500 before I even turned a wheel on the

track. Obviously doesnt even include tires, Gas, Travel (I was local in WI), camping in the trailer, generator gas, beer, food, etc.

[romoman]

My entry at RA in 2009 runoffs with an S2 between parking and entry fees was at least $1500 before I even turned a wheel on the

track. Obviously doesnt even include tires, Gas, Travel (I was local in WI), camping in the trailer, generator gas, beer, food, etc.

Sorry - I wasn't clear. The other series that run with SVRA make the Runoffs look cheap.

[E1pix]

My entry at RA in 2009 runoffs with an S2 between parking and entry fees was at least $1500 before I even turned a wheel on the

track. Obviously doesnt even include tires, Gas, Travel (I was local in WI), camping in the trailer, generator gas, beer, food, etc.

Awesome, Bud! I love it.

And we made it to VIR over 19 days for an average speed of 5.9 mph. :-)

[bob darcey]

At least it's a KENT on the pole....

[alangbaker]

At least it's a KENT on the pole....

I wondered when someone would mention that...

[-pru-]

At the Runoffs, FF is definitely not as healthy as years past, but it still offers ups great racing at the front...and the FORD wins!

[Jon Jeffords]

Sour grapes comment from Johathan Kotyk when asked if his second place finish ended in frustration for him: "It's ok; we won first in class. I can't compete against a half-million dollar race car that his uncle has, thats got 10 horsepower on the field."

I hope the medical staff was able to get him in the whaambulance before his tears started to make pit lane slippery.

[Garey Guzman]

I was really surprised when Kotyk said that. But I think that if a Kent had 10 more HP than the Honda, it could have kept ME in front of those guys and I would have assumed someone driving well enough to already have a Gold medal in their trailer would have simply driven away.

Sour grapes comment from Johathan Kotyk when asked if his second place finish ended in frustration for him: "It's ok; we won first in class. I can't compete against a half-million dollar race car that his uncle has, thats got 10 horsepower on the field."

I hope the medical staff was able to get him in the whaambulance before his tears started to make pit lane slippery.

[E1pix]

I didn’t see the interview but *can* understand his frustration.

But that’s also something you *cannot ever* say on camera!

[reidhazelton]

Reid's hot take....

Congrats to Nolan and the Allear/Copper family. Classy folks, and happy for them that they get to share that family experience.

What the race lacked in numbers made up for in quality. Clean, hard race at the front. One of the better races of the weekend.

How cool is it to see Tim's son Calvin running in Tim's car? That must be a blast for Tim.

Lap traffic plays a role yet again. Hard to imagine Kotyk gets beat to the line if he didn't get held up mid-corner and got the normal run he usually did. That's not new in FF, and seems to be the norm to have lap traffic change the outcome. Which, is that really changing the outcome if lappers are expected? (Deep thoughts from the couch...)

A Kent is on par with Honda's if it's the most tricked out Kent on the planet in the most tricked out car on the planet if the Honda gets held up mid corner in the last few corners. With Nolan driving and the absolutely bananas aero package it has, that car will be unbeatable at Road America where the Kent has the top end advantage on the Honda .

Kotyk's brake check on Gross on the cool down lap in T1 was uh, well, lame. At least it looked like a brake check on TV.

Hottest take - wild for someone who runs with a real deal IndyCar team and has done so for several years complain about being outspent. When you out dollar everyone for years and then complain when someone out dollars you.....really? And 10hp and HALF A MILLION....lets not get carried away here.

[stonebridge20]

That was a hell of a race all the way up to the tantrum.

It's that kind of attitude that keeps you racing out of your own pocket and not someone else's.

[cmonroe24]

Can someone provide a rough breakdown on how you'd spend 1/2 million or whatever it is on a FF car? Thanks

[Chris Robson]

Ask Keith Nunes....

All kidding aside, If you add testing, areo and engine development, travel, team expenses, tires, tires, and more tires, having the most experienced team who meticulously manages your car," lifes" all the parts, it can be expensive. $500,000 expensive, I don't know. I do know that their cars are beyond reproach when it comes to every last detail...Just an FYI, I recently received a quote to have a Formula Ford wrapped and it was northward of $3500 (installed)...so...it all adds up.

[cmonroe24]

I actually wasn't kidding--can you spend more than, say, $20-30K on an engine, half that? on a blueprinted gearbox, same for custom bodywork, hard for me (who doesn't know much) to see how you could get much more than say $100K over cost of $40-80K chassis. Would love to know what I'm missing. This is car only, no team, coaching etc costs.

[SteveG]

I actually wasn't kidding--can you spend more than, say, $20-30K on an engine, half that? on a blueprinted gearbox, same for custom bodywork, hard for me (who doesn't know much) to see how you could get much more than say $100K over cost of $40-80K chassis. Would love to know what I'm missing. This is car only, no team, coaching etc costs.

Actually one can't spend $500K on a single FF. You can easily spend over $100K if you include professional preparation. Build an identical spare car and you're over $200K.

FWIW, I've seen guys spend close to $100K on a from scratch Spec Miata build

However it is easy to spend $500K to go to the runoffs in FF as well as in a lot of classes too.

Steve

[Chris Livengood]

I thought it was a great race. Personally I don't pay too much attention to attitudes after the race. That Kent and aero package had legs. It was the clear favorite for the entire race. Certainly Nolan was there to make it happen. This of course is the nature of the Runoffs. Kotyk arguably was the better driver in the lesser car, but none of that matters. Better drivers lose all the time.

Nolan is going to slay RA next year if he decides to run. I doubt anybody has the time to build a package to compete in the next year.

[bob darcey]

Formula F race on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FZqt65MeS8

FF race starts around 4:17:00

[Purple Frog]

Did anyone look over the Porter Aiken FF car that was for sale here a few weeks back? The price they are asking for the car is a lot less than what they spent developing it. I watched the multi-year development of that Piper with expenses like the frame going back and forth to California, bodywork, engines, electronics, wiring harnesses, spares, yadda, yadda, yadda... and the Aiken's never played in a wind tunnel with that car. That was a family run operation with no one at the shop getting paid, and yet the cost of that program was staggering to me.

Polestar and LTD don't work for minimum wage either. It's safe to say Nolan's car was "well developed". Maybe not $500K, but up there.

The extensive development/engineering in FC and FF in the last 15 years might account for so many folks moving to spec classes. But then if you glance at the results in SM, FE, and SR3, the podiums were made up of cars coming out of high end prep shops (e.g. Comprent, OPM, etc.), not lowly independents.

Racing at the front is not for those faint of wallet.

[stonebridge20]

Bottom line here is that it was the Runoffs.

You bring your A game to the Runoffs.

Allaer brought his A game, drove the wheels off of the car and won the race clean.

He also did the same thing in FC

Congratulations to him on two jobs well done !

[swiftdrivr]

It seems there were three well developed cars in a nose-to-tail train for most of the race, and the fastest lap of the race went to a car further back in the field, at least near the halfway point. Add to that a winning margin that was so small no one knew who was going to cross the line first until it happened, and there can be only one conclusion; a half a million dollars just doesn't buy what it used to.
[Well, I guess there could be another conclusion, now that I think about it,,,]

[Jim Garry]

Maybe the crashed car today wasn’t the car I thought it was then...

I presumed this car was the red car Jim ran up to maybe the mid-20 teens...?

I may inquire tomorrow and amend/confirm my post.

Thanks for the likely clarification, I try to be accurate on these things.

Any word on this? The announcers said something to the effect that he didn't take the green but got out there for a bit.

[CGOffroad]

How fun was that to watch? That was a much better spectacle than I have seen in just about any professional or televised racing in years !!!

Anyone that sets around crying about engine parity between Kent and Honda can simply 'go pound sand !' There may be other classes where there is an argument, but the comparison between Kent and Honda is as good as anyone can expect from engine technologies that are how many years apart ?

As has been said many times on Apex.... it isn't how much money you throw at a project, it is your WHOLE program that puts you at the front. It takes engine builders, shock technicians, someone to set the car up, someone to transport, etc, etc. Last but not least it takes someone to qualify the car, take it across the start and get it across the finish line.

BRAVO !!! And congrats to everyone in the Formula Ford race...

[Brian Graham]

Well we just pulled in the driveway about an hour ago from the Run Offs and I am catching up on stuff and made the mistake of jumping on apex........sucked me right in as usual LOL. I can add my thoughts on what to me was a great event. Yes it is a big investment of time and funds to do the event. I first attended the Run Offs in 89 at Road Atlanta to watch and then went back every year for the races to watch as I found it just too good to stay away from. When they announced that 93 would be the final year at RA, I planned my race season all around the NE division events as I had to run at this event before it left. I scraped my way in with an effort that saw me go to all but one race on my own and with a package that was decent but certainly not well funded. I did the Run Offs with a plan to just be part of the show and drive my stuff to the limit of what I had. I did that and came away wanting more. I did several RO's at Mid Ohio and although there was never a budget to test and throw tires and have the latest motors, I did enjoy the experience. This year was the first Run Offs I have gone to since it was at MO. We ran William Ferguson in our Piper DL7 Honda. He is a real talent and ran the Canadian F1600 Championship with us last year and around March we hatched a plan to get him qualified and tackle the Run Offs, this time with a package we believed capable of winning. We did 3 majors events, no test days, one set of tires for all 3 weekends (thank you Hoosier for building an incredible tire!) and just William and myself at the track.

We put our resources into the event itself, we ran all 3 test days, budgeted for tires and had a great car. This was something we really looked forward to. The light entry was disappointing, we really wanted to run against the best cars, drivers and teams. However, with Polestar and Team Pelfrey and some very quick privateers, we still faced a challenge. It was very close in qualifying and on our own we felt we were the second fastest car but a long way from the rocket that Polestar and his group had built. In the final qualifying we finally ran in some drafting laps and yet we were still off of while Nolan ran on his own with no draft help. Let me make it clear, I have no issue with that car, it is absolutely gorgeous and obviously extremely well developed. If I had a single car team with an experienced driver I too would run a Ford motor as I think ultimately they are quicker. With our team and running young drivers who sometimes are learning to driver a standard in our cars and lets just say with very little mechanical sympathy for motors and gearboxes the Honda is the best choice. I have benefited from over a decade of Honda reliability and am thankful for that.

Now the race, we really did not know what to expect and knew we would find out quickly if we could even stay with Nolan, it was a relief to see that both Jonathan and William could stay with him and they both led laps and it was a great show. The issue was that it did not matter what you did, if you were leading onto the front straight, Nolan would drive by just before the flag stand. The only way you were going to be safe was to have him in third coming to the flag and then maybe he would run out of space. In the end William tried something that didn't pan out as he knew that he could not go from third to the lead on the backstraight but it was possible from second. I am very happy we made the trip, the week was long but also fun as we took in the Great Tennis Ball Races (a whole story in itself) and met plenty of new folks.

Congrats to Nolan and Jim's group of guys, Jonathan while not happy is a great guy and a hell of a driver. Watch out for Zack and Calvin next year, they will be right there. Hope to be there with more than one car, I am choosing to believe that this year was a blip on the participation side of things and Road America will have a great field of Formula F's.

Brian.

[problemchild]

Fun fact!

In 2022, Jonathon and Nolan had equal cars from the same team. When the race went full course caution after 12 laps, Jonathan was 36 seconds ahead of Nolan.

Cubic dollars has always been a factor in racing. It is much easier to celebrate those results when you are in the peanut gallery rather than the paddock.

[Steve Bamford]

Fun fact!

In 2022, Jonathon and Nolan had equal cars from the same team. When the race went full course caution after 12 laps, Jonathan was 36 seconds ahead of Nolan.

Cubic dollars has always been a factor in racing. It is much easier to celebrate those results when you are in the peanut gallery rather than the paddock.

Didn't Nolan go off in Hog Pen last year early on & work his way back up to third on a damp/wet track?

Checking Race Monitor I believe Nolan had the 4th fastest lap, 2 tenths behind Jonathan who had the fastest. Draft helps create better lap times.

[TimH]

Congrats to Nolan and Jim's group of guys, Jonathan while not happy is a great guy and a hell of a driver. Watch out for Zack and Calvin next year, they will be right there. Hope to be there with more than one car, I am choosing to believe that this year was a blip on the participation side of things and Road America will have a great field of Formula F's.

Brian, it was a thrill to see your livery in the race, especially when it briefly went to P1.

[alangbaker]

Brian, it was a thrill to see your livery in the race, especially when it briefly went to P1.

Hear, hear! (OK... ...Read, read!).

I can completely understand Ferguson's decision. He knew that being in 3rd wasn't going to cut it, so he tried something that was a step too far. And I respect that when he realized it wasn't going to work, he put the car into the grass rather than just barrel into the lead two.

[car7316]

FF has been going strong since its inception. I have heard that is was "dead" so many times, but it keeps coming back because its the best bang for your buck. For the track time the Runoffs doesn't compete with the pro series, which is one of the reasons the car count was down this year, but not the only one. I can do an FRP race for $2500 or so, this race cost me a lot more than that, almost double, and I didn't do a lot of laps all week.

I didn't deserve a podium this year but I'll take it. I deserved better in past years and it didn't play out so it all comes out in the wash. The 3 at the front were fast, I couldn't keep up, draft or no draft, and they all did a great job this week. Calvin and Zachary gave me all I could handle, they are going to be fast next year.

I'm proud of my effort this season, even though I didn't win it (again). Its a difficult event to run, and I had to miss the Tuesday session for my day job, And it rained Wednesday, so that all put me on my back foot. I could have qualified better though, just made a mistake in the Thursday qual session that was all on me. Those guys aren't unbeatable; I've beaten them both. Just wasn't my year.

Thank you to Greg Rice and Carlos Rodrigues for coming and helping me on Sunday. I'm usually all by my lonesome so having some support was a nice change!!

I can tell you right now the car count next season will at least be 1, because I'll be back. Its a stupid, expensive, frustrating, event, but its the runoffs, and I'm not stopping until I win the thing. So hopefully 2024!

[Chris Livengood]

There is no "deserve" in racing.

Great drive, Greg and Carlos are awesome, and congrats on a great finish!

[Chris Robson]

I'm not sure that this has been mentioned and if it has, I apologize. In speaking with someone at the Runoffs, they were pretty sure that the car that won, is Lewis Cooper's car. That car started out as a 1997 Van Diemen RF97K. As an aside, the reason I say this is, we have a RF97K and found out that a "new aero" set of bodywork was being developed. Because it is a 97K, RF98 bodywork doesn't fit the car. We inquired and found out who built it. We then asked who we could speak with regarding purchasing a set and were told by the manufacture that the client was not interested in selling any bodywork and it would not be for sale.

My point to this whole post is that with enough work, time, testing and development you can make a 25 year old car competitive (see previous comment regarding Keith Nunes and his DB6 program)

Just my .02 cents...

[TimH]

I didn't deserve a podium this year but I'll take it.

Not true. As you told the interviewer, there was a pretty fair chance not all of those front three would finish. There's a place for fast driving and a place for smart driving. ..and you weren't exactly slow.

[mmi16]

Just as it is in too many things,facility owners made the grab for those with deep pockets,and it is now coming back to bite them Too high a cost to go to the Runoffs for too little track time. Too high lift ticket and hotel prices at too many ski areas - which is why I refuse to head west to go skiing.

It is sad watching it head in this direction.

There are only so many tracks. With the us swelling of ChumpCar, NASA, marque clubs and all the various 'driving academies' plus track days. Who needs SCCA racing to get on track? With that many organizations seeking 'prime' dates, the bidding for those dates just goes up and up.

Success will kill participation that are financially challenged - with the Graying of SCCA, financial challenges become what is known as a fixed Retirement Income.

I have the questions, I don't have the answers.