FIA-approved rain lights required starting 1/1/2024

[Matt Clark]

to save some people clicks:

Taken Care Of
GCR
1. #34370 (Stevan Davis) Proposed Rule Regarding RAIN LIGHTS in F/SR Cars from April FT Thank you for your letter in response to letter #33905 requesting that FIA 2019-spec rain lights be mandated for all formula and sports racing cars. The recommendation was published for comment in the May Fastrack and was ratified by the SCCA Board of Directors as part of a Club Racing Board rules package. The new rule for GCR section 9.3.32.B.2 mandating FIA 2019-spec rain lights for F/SR was published in the Updated June GCR to become effective 1/1/2024.

The video accompanying the letter requesting FIA rain lights was quite graphic in showing the difference between minimum spec rain lights and LED rain lights. Many of the responding letters argue for setting a minimum lumens requirement and requiring acquisition of a lumens measurement device for SCCA Tech groups. Agreeing on a minimum lumens spec, agreeing on view angle, agreeing on a reliable measurement device, providing said device to the Regions (or mandating that they acquire one), and specifying and then consistently carrying out measurements are all problematic. The FIA spec is enforceable.

Note that unlike other driver personal safety items such as helmets, harnesses, fire bottles, and HANS devices, the rain light impacts the safety of others on track just as much as it does the person who is in the car to which it is attached. The one-time expense of the FIA 2019-spec rain light is very cost-effective compared to the cost of a single accident avoided.
__________________________________________________ _______________________


"Agreeing on a minimum lumens spec, agreeing on view angle, agreeing on a reliable measurement device, providing said device to the Regions (or mandating that they acquire one), and specifying and then consistently carrying out measurements are all problematic."

To me, this is kind of a bogus argument. I have seen almost zero discussion, other than this thread.
A couple things need to be asked, and we can start with: is an Afterburner acceptable in the eyes of the CRB?
If so, then use THOSE specs as a baseline, without FIA certs. And there are a ton more questions that could be listed & answered objectively... but that is one of the lowest-hanging fruits I can think of.
The FIA spec is NOTHING, if I own a high-quality printer. We literally have run into that issue with safety gear the past couple years, remember?

[John LaRue]

Is that supposed to be a joke? The advisory committees have absolutely no authority. Thanks but no thanks. I see what's going on with how the CRB and BoD are treating the CSAC with those T5 classification and Dodge Neon stunts that were pulled on them, forcing a later retraction of those non-CSpec cars

Not kidding at all; If you don't like it then jump in and help change or improve it. We need more people with good ideas!

Believe it or not, the advisory committees recommendations are most frequently followed by the CRB just as they have been in this instance regarding the FIA rain light.

[J Leonard]

What happens if someone's FIA sticker falls off on the track and can not be found? Do they have to buy another ??? expensive rain light?

Late to the comments.... I was looking at one FIA approved light and it had no sticker. Approval number was molded in the case. Of course it was on the back requiring removal for inspection.

[Joefisherff]

"Agreeing on a minimum lumens spec, agreeing on view angle, agreeing on a reliable measurement device, providing said device to the Regions (or mandating that they acquire one), and specifying and then consistently carrying out measurements are all problematic."

In other words requires effort and potentially an expense for SCCA so go pound sand. I think I'll be headed to other sanctioning bodies to race....

[LarryWinkelman]

Not kidding at all; If you don't like it then jump in and help change or improve it. We need more people with good ideas!

Such horse****. I don't think the rain light rules have changed in 20+ years, and then suddenly with 1 letter and within 3 months the rule is changed? This generated 18 responses, at least 8 of which were clearly against. And yet within 3 months it's a done deal? I'm sure there were some good and reasonable alternatives presented, and obviously ignored. You say get involved, but for most of us this is the typical expectation for dealing with the club, so why bother. "Thank you for your letter" is a running joke, because it such an accurate and succinct example of how we're treated.

[FVRacer21]

I wonder who drew the short straw to write that response. From what I can tell the everyone ran rings around the published rules procedure.

https://www.scca.com/downloads/43127...ocess/download

The Board of Directors (BoD) meets monthly. Items recommended by the CRB are considered twice a
year, typically during the August and December meetings. When considering the items, the BoD takes
into account the comments of their constituents. The BoD may also establish when a particular
recommendation is to become effective. Normally, this would be October 1 of the current year, or January
1 of the following year, but special circumstances may demand more immediate implementation.

Now I am going to have to write to my director, explaining why my region will be getting one less entry for 2024 - if I can afford to race at all. (with the safety costs, increased entry fees, increases parts prices etc.)

I will include that if this is such an important safety feature, why is it not included in ALL cars. I cannot think of a more critical case of a GT1 car running up on a STL car in the rain.....

ChrisZ


Jean-Pierre Sarti : Lately, I sometimes get very tired, you know? Very tired.

[Steve Davis]

Not kidding at all; If you don't like it then jump in and help change or improve it. We need more people with good ideas!

Believe it or not, the advisory committees recommendations are most frequently followed by the CRB just as they have been in this instance regarding the FIA rain light.

I was on the FV Ad Hoc Committee for MANY YEARS (9?).. in all that time, the only time I can recall that SCCA 'heard' what we said was when we did a FULL REWRITE of the FV GCR section to clear up EXISTING wording and update it to 'more recent than 40 years prior' - with NO RULES CHANGES.. just clarifications and removing conflicts. After many other 'recommended' rules changes - good ones - things that would SAVE RACERS $MONEY$ .. (like Spec Tire, Disc Brakes, 'Control Intake Manifold' - things that would make the class BETTER), SCCA tossed out the AHC (ignoring all of our suggestions) and 'invented' their own new FV Committee.. which served for 2 years. During that brief time, SCCA implemented 3 rules changes (2 of which we recommended before being disbanded).. then SCCA 'DELETED' that Committee.. again. And.. interestingly, while the AHC posted pretty decent MINUTES of each meeting they had.. the 'new' Committee was prohibited from passing ANY INFORMATION to the public (drivers) about their discussions. NOTHING was ever published except for the rules changes.

The FSRAC is the only Committee that I'm aware of covering all of the classes under this enforced rules change. As mentioned above, the previous Rain Light requirement was a 15 watt trailer tail light. NOT ADEQUATE by any measurement if it was raining. SO.. during the last 50 years, almost EVERY OPEN WHEEL CAR has already taken it upon themselves to install a better tail light. NOW - suddenly, ALL existing lights (no matter HOW GOOD THEY ARE- undoubtedly FAR SUPERIOR to the original rule) .. have to be tossed in the trash.. then dig into the wallet for an FIA LIGHT that most likely is NOT ANY BETTER than the Afterburner (most common implementation that I know of.. or a knock off of it) that most of us already have.

SO.. WHAT 'advisory boards' were consulted with this rules change.. that's going to cost pretty much EVERY OPEN WHEEL RACER IN SCCA a couple of C-notes (wait until 'the word' gets out about the MANDATORY REQUIREMENT for the real price to be determined) and a measurable amount of WORK to remove and toss the old Light and install the new one - probably a different size and form factor... and maybe a CURRENT HOG for those of us with 'constant draw' battery systems (no charger).

Flagtronics coming at the same time.. WHAT'S NEXT? And no one can figure out why SCCA membership is declining....

I think I'll go back and reread the post from Cliff about his EV cars .. and rules.. and entry costs. Hopefully, SCCA won't manage to integrate them anytime soon.
FORTY NINE YEARS - actually more.. just 49 since I joined SCCA .. and it's looking doubtful that I'll 'make the grade' for that fifty year pin. I have until the end of January to decide .. unless I just go ahead and resign now.

This REALLY .... REALLY.... TICKS ME OFF!! (maybe you can't tell?)
Steve, FV80

I'll probably go back and edit this post after I cool down a bit.. but maybe not!
OK.. here's my first update... I'll construct a poll.. lets see what WE think....
Please read the poll and submit a response.

CRAP.. my POLL Could have worked .. I just didn't figure out HOW to do it until it was too late. Can't be edited now. Maybe try again later with a new poll.

[Matt Clark]

Here is an aggressive thought...
Just no one do it.

We are a club. And the members have made their thoughts very clear on this.
If more than half the F/SR entries simply refuse to buy the new FIA spec lights & show up to race anyway, is the region going to turn us all away? Regions can't afford that.

[Steve Davis]

Interesting thought Matt. I think we MIGHT need the support of the STAFF of the race though.. or we'll be wasting a lot of time, effort and MONEY just to be DQ'd after the race(s).
Actually, the STAFF of each race COULD specifically 'OVERRIDE' the GCR in the event supps (which would have to be approved by HQ, of course) and say that Rain Lights will be checked for 'adequate functionality only' .. or something like that...

Steve

[Matt Clark]

Perhaps... but again, are they gonna DQ the entire run group(s)?
They might do it 1 event, but they would also know no one would bother even entering next time.

[Rick Kirchner]

whats needed are.... personal e-mail addresses.

[problemchild]

If a red marker light is considered inadequate, then why would they accept a yellow one?

FWIW, I currently have a red marker light (several LEDs) on one car and Afterburner lights on two. To my eye, i see no difference in performance. If I did, I would have already upgraded the marker light.

Again FWIW. Has anyone seen the spray coming off an 18 wheeler in the rain? Marker lights are designed for that application. When there is so much spray that the marker lights are obscured, even though I am not a rocket scientist, I know there is a vehicle inside that spray.

[924RACR]

Perhaps you should volunteer to serve on one of the advisory boards.

I already did, thanks for asking: both P1 and P2 boards, simultaneously.

I also learned just how valued my and our input was appreciated during the process. Having this rule rammed down our throats has done nothing to improve my impression of that.

[Ed Womer]

Not kidding at all; If you don't like it then jump in and help change or improve it. We need more people with good ideas!

Believe it or not, the advisory committees recommendations are most frequently followed by the CRB just as they have been in this instance regarding the FIA rain light.

I am sorry to inform you that the advisory committees area a serious joke! Those of us in FV community know this first hand. The CB never listened to them at all!

Like someone else mentioned, lazy bastards is in my opinion be overly kind. Unless you are constantly hiding under a rock, those in charge always seem to do what they want and don't give a crap about what the masses think!

Ed

[Ed Womer]

If a red marker light is considered inadequate, then why would they accept a yellow one?

FWIW, I currently have a red marker light (several LEDs) on one car and Afterburner lights on two. To my eye, i see no difference in performance. If I did, I would have already upgraded the marker light.

Again FWIW. Has anyone seen the spray coming off an 18 wheeler in the rain? Marker lights are designed for that application. When there is so much spray that the marker lights are obscured, even though I am not a rocket scientist, I know there is a vehicle inside that spray.

When asked by a non racer what it is like to race in the rain in an open wheel car, my easiest explanation is driving on the highway around large trucks. Like Greg said, I might not at firs see the truck, but I know it is there. That is why this BS about FIA approved is ridiculous, just a lazy way to enforce and a very expensive addition to a product manufacture. I have had Afterburner rain lights since they became available and they work extremely well, unless you are blind. Oh wait a minute.

Ed

[Ed Womer]

While I am on a rant, I attended a comp board meeting at the runoffs a few years back, when the BS arouse about the length of the FV exhaust pipe. Not being bashful, I put up my hand and when acknowledged, I mentioned a very simple way to solve the problem and their reply was write a letter to them. I said isn't that person there doing minutes? I left.

Ed

[Steve Davis]

I just posted a new poll to replace the old one that didn't work...
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/sho...Light-for-2024

Maybe it will provide some more interesting data. Please .. anyone and every one that has followed this thread, place your 'vote' so we'll see some meaningful data.
Thanks,
Steve, FV80

[924RACR]

Do they (the powers that be that make all the decisions for us despite our best intentions, AKA the Board) even understand that, in their brilliance (pun intended) they have even obsoleted some very good FIA-approved options?!? No more Afterburner light for you: that's the old 2008 spec, throw those in the trash (or donate them to a safety-conscious Vintage racer)...

Very disappointed at how many are chiming in on the survey thread indicating they didn't bother providing any feedback. Gotta follow the process etc etc...

Maybe we should start submitting letters EVERY MONTH requesting they rescind this rule, re-write for a more rational answer. If we have to follow the process: they do to, and let's wear out their fingers repeating their response to the issue until they get the message.

It ain't over until we give up.

I guess I'll start... https://www.crbscca.com/ ...letter #34714

The new requirement for a FIA 2019-spec rain light immediately obsoletes a number of perfectly good, functional options available to racers and currently installed on many racecars. This poses an unnecessary financial burden on racers - who are not, contrary to the apparent misconception, made of money.

No communication has been made to indicate that SCCA plans to work with any suppliers to ease this burden and ensure adequate supply.

The rule furthermore equally undermines the technical capabilities and competence of Tech Inspectors. Given the level of technical compliance they are required to assess in active racing, the idea that a rain light's function cannot be effectively evaluated during the course of an annual inspection doesn't stand up to the most basic scrutiny.

On top of an actually useful phase-in of Flagtronics units - which is still extremely problematic for many formula cars, again apparently ignored by our rulesmakers - we racers are left holding a very substantial bill for the privilege of continuing to race in SCCA.

It's moves like these that leave us feeling like we aren't really even wanted in Club Racing any more.

Please stop the rushed implementation this rule change, and listen to the feedback of your constituents, work with us to address our concerns, don't just leave us with "Like It or Leave It!"

[kea]

In looking over a catalogue from a UK motorsports parts company, 2018, I see that MSA (?) and FIA approve the 52mm round, LED cluster we know over here as the Ultra rain light. They also display rectangular ones from Lifeline and Cartek
So, maybe this means almost any LED cluster is OK.

[924RACR]

Sadly, no; not only does it need to have an FIA sticker/stamp/whatever, it must be a 2019 one - the 2008 FIA ones are now obsolete, per the rule.

[Steve Demeter]

There were a ton of letters opposing the rain light rule, yet the powers that be ignored them. What a crock of S..t

Another $200 pissed down the drain thanks to .....
Now here comes Flagtronics.

And people ask why more racers are not coming out????

When one person writes a letter and fifteen or so write letters opposing the idea and it gets rubber stamped wtf is going on. do our folks not listen to the people who spend the money and who know best what is adequate and what is not??

[JoshuaJustice]

and maybe a CURRENT HOG for those of us with 'constant draw' battery systems (no charger).

Ironically, this brings up yet another reason to actually measure lumens instead of using a stupid compliance sticker. If you're not supplying enough volts to the FIA light, it won't put out the lumens it's specified to.

[problemchild]

It is amusing how life comes in circles. About 5 years ago, Ontario Region (Canada) mandated expensive rain lights like the Afterburner. I was outraged, and offered much of the commentary that is being expressed here. The moron that was running the region banned me from their forum for expressing an opinion contrary to his. Life goes on.

Now I am arguing to keep afterburner lights as the standard.

The bottom line is:
This is a completely artificial crisis. (Atleast the flagtronics scam has some legitimate safety arguments).
We don't need $250 rainlights!
We don't need $100 rainlights either!
A quality 3 LED marker light (as shown in orange in Matt's post) is perfectly adequate (very close to the Afterburner brightness).
Racing in the rain has real dangers that include visibility issues, as it has for 80 years. Expensive lights do not solve that problem or eliminate the danger. I personally believe that driving a race car at 10/tenths in the dry is far more dangerous than driving competitively in the rain. Interestingly, I have won many races in the rain but do not recall ever crashing in the rain. On the other hand, I have written off several cars in the dry, certainly spent 10s of thousands of dollars in repair costs. Of all the things that SCCA should be worried about, this is not one of them. That we have 8 pages of discussion on this topic because two racers crashed together in a rain race is absolutely ridiculous!

[BeerBudgetRacing]

I wonder of Afterburner can get FIA 2019 certification. They did the previous standard.

[924RACR]

I wonder of Afterburner can get FIA 2019 certification. They did the previous standard.

They have. But it's a different, more expensive unit:
https://www.cartekmotorsport.com/fia-rain-light/

[TimH]

They have. But it's a different, more expensive unit:
https://www.cartekmotorsport.com/fia-rain-light/

Brighter than the 2008 model, not horribly more expensive, a lot less that other alternatives. But it seems unlikely that was the bright one shown in the video that caused this mess - I'll bet it was the old model and proved it adequate.

[924RACR]

Oh, hey, I already got a reply to my letter! Who says SCCA can't move quickly when they want to?!?

[Matt Clark]

Brighter than the 2008 model, not horribly more expensive, a lot less that other alternatives. But it seems unlikely that was the bright one shown in the video that caused this mess - I'll bet it was the old model and proved it adequate.

and also note the power draw:
2008 is 150 mA
2019 is 700 mA

edited to add- current Afterburner power draw as a flashing light:
80 mA

I think it was Stevan that pointed out elsewhere.... if you have a total loss electric system, some people are gonna now need a new battery to keep up with this & Flagtronics.

[Ed Womer]

For those capable of making the FIA sticker, I see a golden opportunity here.

Sometimes it is acceptable to make forged things.

Ed

[CheckeredFlag]

Oh, hey, I already got a reply to my letter! Who says SCCA can't move quickly when they want to?!?

Let me guess: "Thank you for your letter."

[Matt Clark]

Let me guess: "Thank you for your letter."

close! lol
I got one too.

"Your letter has been reviewed by the Club Racing Board and a response will appear in the August Fastrack on or around the 20th of this month."

[CheckeredFlag]

close! lol
I got one too.

"Your letter has been reviewed by the Club Racing Board and a response will appear in the August Fastrack on or around the 20th of this month."

"3. #34373 (Matt Clark) FIA Rain LightsThank you for your letter. Please see the response to letter #34370 in the current Fastrack."

Yep, you got the "Thank you for your letter" answer.

[Steve Davis]

FYI, I just submitted a NEW CRB letter requesting that FV be 'released' from the 2019 FIA requirement due to the increased battery draw.. and no onboard chargers... and to at least allow the 2008 Afterburner as acceptable for FV.

[Steve Demeter]

Not a bad idea for any class that runs full drain systems

[JoshuaJustice]

https://cdn.connectsites.net/user_fi...pdf?1689879789

An absolute barrage of letters on the subject, and the same copy-paste reply to all of them with no clarification for cars like the SRF and FE that have specific references to lights in their car-specific specs. Frankly, it is ridiculous that they're not even backing down and allowing older specs, the Afterburner, etc. Is there a place where I can see who voted on this so I can make decisions as appropriate the next time elections roll around?

[Ed Womer]

Looks like this might be my last year racing, again! I have had an afterburner light on my cars since they became available and I have no intention of buying a newer one.

Talk about stupid people.

Ed

[CheckeredFlag]

Is there a place where I can see who voted on this so I can make decisions as appropriate the next time elections roll around?

Nope. Our illustrious CRB puts the "S" in Secret Crony Cadre of America. They're a veritable black box: Letters go in, politics and self-serving happens within, then edicts come out.

[Steve Davis]

I believe the basic premise is the ALL DECISIONS ARE UNANIMOUS. They (might) look at incoming letters, they discuss, "they" decide, "THEY" EDICT. There are no 'individual members' - the unit is 'blamed' or 'kudod' as ONE.

[924RACR]

They know what's good for us better than we do. How dare you question...

[Rick Kirchner]

Along with John LaRue, aren't David Arken, DavidLocke, and Jim Goughary members of this community?