FC Questions

[gmaloy]

Hi All,

Longtime lurker here thinking of making the jump into a formula car and looking for advice. I've been racing a CRX in STL for the past few years and through an insane amount of effort (and a little luck) was able to win the Runoffs last year at VIR. I'm kind of a one man band though - my family lives out of state - and maintaining a tin top car by myself in a garage with no lift is getting to be too much. I'm thinking that a formula car might be easier for one guy to maintain. Plus a lot of this old Honda stuff is getting fragile and harder to source. I broke some Honda suspension pieces recently while on track and think I'd like to have something more purpose built for racing. Also, I autoxed an old formula ford in CM for a few years and really liked the driving experience. I'm not really immersed in the formula car world, though, but FC seems like a good value compared to the other formula classes. I have a few questions, though, maybe some of you can help answer.

• Is working on these cars pretty doable for one person? I'm an engineer and built my CRX in my garage so I'm not super worried about the technical knowledge needed, more the ease of working on the car itself.
• Seems like a 98+ VD is a must to be competitive. Any chance of pre-98 cars being competitive or is the aero & narrow track too limiting?
• The FC field looked strong at the 2021 Runoffs but was way down in 2022. Any reason why? Also any insight on the current health of the class would be appreciated.
• Any info on consumables lifespan - engine hours between rebuilds, pads, rotors, tire heat cycles etc. so I can compare to my current costs would be helpful. Is everyone running 93 octane in a Zetec or a more expensive fuel?
• Read somewhere that a Zetec rebuild cost is around $5k. Seems pretty high. Is that for a pro shop + assembly? For my CRX, I have a local shop doing the machining and then I do the assembly. Anybody doing it that way?
• Is the driving pretty clean in FC? I've heard stories of karting kids coming into formula classes and driving with abandon. Is that a big issue?
• I'd prefer to drive something with a head surround for safety. Is everyone today using one? Any particular chassis that are safer than others?

Thanks for the help.

[John LaRue]

Check your PM> John

[Goallie11]

Brief answers below.

Is working on these cars pretty doable for one person? I'm an engineer and built my CRX in my garage so I'm not super worried about the technical knowledge needed, more the ease of working on the car itself.

Yes. Pulling the trans from the engine is the only thing that really is better with two people, everything except that is easy for one person.

Seems like a 98+ VD is a must to be competitive. Any chance of pre-98 cars being competitive or is the aero & narrow track too limiting?

Depends on how competitive you want to be. If you're looking to win runoffs, simply don't with a non zetec car, and basically don't in general unless you want to spend 50k+ developing your car after buying it. Some pre 98, like mine, were converted to wide track.

The FC field looked strong at the 2021 Runoffs but was way down in 2022. Any reason why? Also any insight on the current health of the class would be appreciated.

Plenty of FCs out there, a lot in the great lakes region so we get good numbers at races.

Any info on consumables lifespan - engine hours between rebuilds, pads, rotors, tire heat cycles etc. so I can compare to my current costs would be helpful. Is everyone running 93 octane in a Zetec or a more expensive fuel?

Pads you may change one a season, depends on how many races you do. Two pads per season should easily last through the year. Rotors, not an issue. The spec tires last about 12 cycles before really falling off but you could run them more. Rebuilds depend on how competitive you want to be. Once you're under a certain leak down percentage you want to rebuild. I ran a car with more than 50% leak down on 3 cylinders and was still competitive.

Read somewhere that a Zetec rebuild cost is around $5k. Seems pretty high. Is that for a pro shop + assembly? For my CRX, I have a local shop doing the machining and then I do the assembly. Anybody doing it that way?

Zetec rebuild is more like 9k. There's only a few builders so they charge a lot. My pinto rebuild was 5k but that was on the high end of it. Certainly can rebuild it yourself but you wont have as competitive engine.

Is the driving pretty clean in FC? I've heard stories of karting kids coming into formula classes and driving with abandon. Is that a big issue?

Yes, it's fine. No complaints.

I'd prefer to drive something with a head surround for safety. Is everyone today using one? Any particular chassis that are safer than others?

I think the 2000+ VD cars have them. A nice to have but absolutely not needed. Safety wise I can't say if one is better than another.

[Steve Demeter]

If you are anywhere near Keith Averill in Royal Oak you need to talk with him.

http://www.racing-stuff.com/

Link to his website

[EYERACE]

The other year - I think it was 2021 - because it was the 35th year for FC - there was a big push to get as many as possible FC cars to RunOffs for an Anniversary Celebration - I think it was 33 cars turned out for the 'Party' - so one could expect the next year to have a drop off.

[f500racer]

I hope this will help.

FC is a great class and the cars a super fun. I enjoy them over everything else I have driven (f6, fe3, ita, srf3, itc, etc..). There are not many entries for a variety of reasons, but the Ohio/Michigan, Pa area seems to have some entires. You can run one solo, but as with all racing, the expertise level moves up with expense. I use a prep shop for a variety of reasons, but could run it alone in my younger days. The zetec is the safe choice but a long rod pro spec pinto may be as good. I just had my zete rebuilt for $10k for the best that can be done. Open we’ll cars have always been safer groups for me to race with. Fenders bring low opportunity passes and attempts.

I would make the jump. The fc looks like a race car. It can do turn 1 at mid ohio almost flat out. It is a purist driving experience. I would encourage buying as much car as you can afford. $30k gets the job done well.

JNS

[BrianT1]

Hi All,

Longtime lurker here thinking of making the jump into a formula car and looking for advice. I've been racing a CRX in STL for the past few years and through an insane amount of effort (and a little luck) was able to win the Runoffs last year at VIR. I'm kind of a one man band though - my family lives out of state - and maintaining a tin top car by myself in a garage with no lift is getting to be too much. I'm thinking that a formula car might be easier for one guy to maintain. Plus a lot of this old Honda stuff is getting fragile and harder to source. I broke some Honda suspension pieces recently while on track and think I'd like to have something more purpose built for racing. Also, I autoxed an old formula ford in CM for a few years and really liked the driving experience. I'm not really immersed in the formula car world, though, but FC seems like a good value compared to the other formula classes. I have a few questions, though, maybe some of you can help answer.

• Is working on these cars pretty doable for one person? I'm an engineer and built my CRX in my garage so I'm not super worried about the technical knowledge needed, more the ease of working on the car itself.
• Seems like a 98+ VD is a must to be competitive. Any chance of pre-98 cars being competitive or is the aero & narrow track too limiting?
• The FC field looked strong at the 2021 Runoffs but was way down in 2022. Any reason why? Also any insight on the current health of the class would be appreciated.
• Any info on consumables lifespan - engine hours between rebuilds, pads, rotors, tire heat cycles etc. so I can compare to my current costs would be helpful. Is everyone running 93 octane in a Zetec or a more expensive fuel?
• Read somewhere that a Zetec rebuild cost is around $5k. Seems pretty high. Is that for a pro shop + assembly? For my CRX, I have a local shop doing the machining and then I do the assembly. Anybody doing it that way?
• Is the driving pretty clean in FC? I've heard stories of karting kids coming into formula classes and driving with abandon. Is that a big issue?
• I'd prefer to drive something with a head surround for safety. Is everyone today using one? Any particular chassis that are safer than others?

Thanks for the help.

I am a one man band as well and run my car on my own. I can do everything on it by myself, change the engine, pull the bell/trans, lift it to high stands all with the help of an MK A Frame lift.

The 98+ Vandiemen is a very driver friendly car. It has a big operating window to go fast. But they just allowed the Vandiemen MZR USF2000 car into the class so that is a viable option.

As for the health of the class there are a lot of guys out there running with good cars. The biggest problem is trying to get guys to go to specific races together so the numbers seem big. That is where the issue is in my mind. We as a group need to do a better job of figuring out what races guys are doing then all go to those.

Consumables are pretty basic. Engine life should last a few years or more if you take care of it. Pads, rotors etc. are as listed, the more you run the more you use.

Engines dont need to be sealed any longer so you can have them built by who ever you want. However they need to follow the rules of course.

Racing is clean. FC is different from FF. The motors allow for you to open a gap where FF the power is so low that the draft is more powerful so cars stick together like glue which can cause crashes.

All current cars run a cockpit surround. Its a nice piece.

Any questions let me know. Would be happy to help.

Brian Tomasi

[Lyngengr]

The other year - I think it was 2021 - because it was the 35th year for FC - there was a big push to get as many as possible FC cars to RunOffs for an Anniversary Celebration - I think it was 33 cars turned out for the 'Party' - so one could expect the next year to have a drop off.

Another reason why there was a big dropoff in 2022 (and 2023) is that the SCCA has decided not to hold the Runoffs anywhere west of the Mississippi River. So all the competitors in the west simply don't go. It is a 3-week time chunk for me to participate at VIR. In 2024 the Runoffs are at Road America, so that might generate more interest.

Last weekend at the aborted Laguna regional we had 15 FC cars entered. So no really good reason to drag the car way back to VIR to more than likely race in the rain.

[gmaloy]

Thanks a lot for all the responses. I'm going to reach out to Keith Averill (he pm'd me already) as his shop is only about 10 minutes from my house. Not sure if I want to do the Runoffs anymore or just race locally. Runoffs the last 4 years was a big financial burden. So I'm considering both CFC and FC. I like the positives of the Zetec engine, though...fuel injected, coil on plug, longer life, runs on 93 etc. I'm a little hesitant on the safety of a formula car so would like to learn more about that such as what are the bad injuries and if you can do anything to prevent them (anti-intrusion panels etc.). Going to finish out this year with the CRX and then might be in the market for a new race car this fall.

[mwalsh]

I can't help with most of your questions as I just picked up my FC about a month ago, It's a 97 VD. Here's a pic of the car with the body removed, figured you may be interested in seeing the crash structure. I was told that earlier cars (can't remember how early, but earlier than mine) could use a little more anti-intrusion.

I went to the Pocono Majors last month to watch, was pretty much where you are in trying to decide if I wanted to take the plunge. I was mainly concerned about how much competition there is. There were 8 FC there, what was really surprising to me was there were only a few FF. That helped me decide - there were more FC than any other open wheel class except for FV.

I used to race in IT and did all the work on that myself. I will say that I'm finding these cars a bit intimidating to work on - just knowing what to do is the issue. I'm planning on taking it to a pro near me, I've been told he'll let you work along side him to learn the ropes. After that I'll do most of the work myself. I am planning on getting an A-frame hoist, should be able to do just about anything myself with that. I saw one on Summit - the hoist, winch, and trolly was around 1K.

I did drive an open wheel car on track last summer, that was it for me. When I decided to get back in to racing this year, it was just a matter of figuring out which open wheel class.

[Rick Kirchner]

A zetec in a 97? That was ambitious....

[mwalsh]

A zetec in a 97? That was ambitious....

No, it's a Pinto that the previous owner converted to fuel injection. I have to put it back to a carburetor to be legal, too bad cause the individual throttle bodies sure look cool.

[Rick Kirchner]

There are a few cars out there with Webers, and those would have been a cool addition.

[Rick Silver]

Hi All,

" I'm thinking that a formula car might be easier for one guy to maintain."

Several front running FC cars at the majors are one man shows, some are prep shops. If you are a competent mechanic, then you can learn some of the formula race car engineering stuff along the way and get professional help as needed. I'm also a one man show at home and at the track.

" I'm not really immersed in the formula car world, though, but FC seems like a good value compared to the other formula classes"

I have always felt that FC was the best value in terms of speed, real race car performance, and competition. There are many fast active drivers in FC.
.

• Is working on these cars pretty doable for one person? I'm an engineer and built my CRX in my garage so I'm not super worried about the technical knowledge needed, more the ease of working on the car itself.

I think working on a formula car is so much easier than working on a fendered car. I usually just sit in my rolling seat when I work on the car. i have an I-beam in my garage, with that an an ATV jack, R&R the trans/rear halfof the car is an easy one man job. On re-assembly it is important to shim the car to a few thousandths.

• Seems like a 98+ VD is a must to be competitive. Any chance of pre-98 cars being competitive or is the aero & narrow track too limiting?

I would strongly recommend a 98 and newer Van Diemen if you want to be competitive at the Majors level. The wide track suspension makes for a much more driveable and tunable chassis. The 97s were fast, but the 98 and newer with the updated suspension was an important step forward that is still fully competitive.

• The FC field looked strong at the 2021 Runoffs but was way down in 2022. Any reason why? Also any insight on the current health of the class would be appreciated.

The FC fields this year in the NE have been good this year with competition to a high level at most events. It seems VIR just does not draw the large Runoffs list for FC, but hopefully there will be at least 15 cars this year - and the top 5-10 cars will be very competitive.

• Any info on consumables lifespan - engine hours between rebuilds, pads, rotors, tire heat cycles etc. so I can compare to my current costs would be helpful. Is everyone running 93 octane in a Zetec or a more expensive fuel?

FC cars are very reasonable on consumables. Brakes, rotors etc. can last a season. I run a Pinto so I run race gas.

• Read somewhere that a Zetec rebuild cost is around $5k. Seems pretty high. Is that for a pro shop + assembly? For my CRX, I have a local shop doing the machining and then I do the assembly. Anybody doing it that way?

The new fully updated Pinto is competitive with a Zetec. A rebuild at a leading engine builder will be $5K minimum. But you will get a few seasons out of a rebuild. While you can use a local builder, this is one area I would strongly recommend using a top engine builder - you will get a more reliable engine with top rate power, which certainly matters if you are trying to win.

• Is the driving pretty clean in FC? I've heard stories of karting kids coming into formula classes and driving with abandon. Is that a big issue?

The driving in FC is clean and open wheels tends to make drivers very aware of their surroundings. I have had no problems with karting kids driving aggressively. You will get to know your competition and become friends with the drivers and get to know those drivers that you can race wheel to wheel very close.

• I'd prefer to drive something with a head surround for safety. Is everyone today using one? Any particular chassis that are safer than others?

My experience racing FC for many seasons is that the cars are well built and safe as far as race cars go and that the 98 and newer cars are a bit wider in the driver compartment with good anti-intrusion, composite side pods, composite nose crush structure etc.



I think driving a winged formula car has no equal in handling and lateral g forces compared to fendered cars, and if you can do your own mechanics and some engineering can be run very affordably.

[EYERACE]

1. A pinto FC engine can run on 100 octane low lead AV gas.......I throw a third of a cup of Marvel Mystery Oil into the 5 gallon can before I pump the AV gas into it. I did not know (or think) a Ztec engine could run or legally could run on 93 pump gas.
2. An unnamed friend years ago was behind one of those 'big box' hardware stores and found one of those big roll around carts that was flat across the top such that if a formula car was on top of it, the car would then be at about belly button height. Because the cart was abandoned and had beat up casters and fit perfectly in the back of a pick-up truck....the next thing you know I had a Christmas present! Thank you. I have a tall heavy duty "A" frame hoist on casters that lifts the FC by the main hoop up onto the cart that has new casters and it is now painted a color other than orange. I use an engine hoist (Thank you Bill) for holding the tranny/bellhousing part of the car when I need to split the car to get to the clutch and/or pull the engine while the car is up on top of the cart - and the "A'" frame holds the engine when I need to separate it from the chassis which would be yet sitting on top of the cart. The "A" can then drop the engine into its crate if the engine needs shipping. The "A" is wide enough that once the engine crate is then lifted up, I can roll everything over the back of the pick up bed, drop the crate onto the bed.........and the next thing you know the guy at the UPS freight depo using his fork lift can lift it and ship it off. Easy peezy.
3. Even an early year FC with a Pinto engine, a lot of wing, and warmed up tires can get you near 3 Gs in the corner......something a tin top will never even come close to...........I think the size of the smile when seeing a checkered flag is directly proportional to the Gs experienced.
4. The SCCA spec FC tire is a little slower after several sessions but you can run the Hoosier R60s many weekends