F1 last race

[Thomas Copeland]

I have yet to find an opinion in the media that agrees with that statement.

Please, post some links.

You're just reading all the English language Motorsport media (which is mostly UK based). I doubt the Dutch media in The Netherlands feels the same way. I'm not a Max fan. Nor am I a Lewis fan. I'm just being completely objective.

It went down exactly the way it should have. EXACTLY.

Here's some Dutch Press on it (from the Daily Express):

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-a...s-dutch-papers

And from Netherland Live:

https://netherlandsnewslive.com/max-...ampion/307910/

Not much crying going on from them it seems....

[alangbaker]

I agree that those not allowed to unlap themselves would have a gripe as they weren't allowed to fight for position the last lap but it didn't have an impact on Max and Lewis.

The "battle" that it split up was Vettel (in 12th) ahead of Ricciardo, and even with the retirement of Perez, neither one ended up scoring points.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

The "battle" that it split up was Vettel (in 12th) ahead of Ricciardo, and even with the retirement of Perez, neither one ended up scoring points.

But there is no way of knowing in advance that it wouldn't matter. There could have been a pileup in front of them.
That's why the implementation of the rule has always been is either unlap ALL or None.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

You're just reading all the English language Motorsport media (which is mostly UK based). I doubt the Dutch media in The Netherlands feels the same way. I'm not a Max fan. Nor am I a Lewis fan. I'm just being completely objective.

It went down exactly the way it should have. EXACTLY.

Here's some Dutch Press on it (from the Daily Express):

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-a...s-dutch-papers

And that article says: With one lap remaining, Masi controversially allowed the lapped cars between. No other comments on the regulations being followed. No analysis of the regulation.

And from Netherland Live:
https://netherlandsnewslive.com/max-...ampion/307910/

And that article says nothing about much - just a recap of the race.

Neither say anything like "It went down exactly the way it should have. EXACTLY."

No one is saying the results should change, but most are saying the rules need clarifying and that Masi screwed up.

I didn't think Racer.com was British:
https://racer.com/2021/12/12/opinion...-end-this-way/

Even Max fan Mansell says it wasn't the right way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5Ee0czVr5s

Peter Windsor is very much a Max fan and concludes the regulations weren't followed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4j-HOtNDMw

You stick with your "exactly" position. I'm open to finding someone to explain the interpretation of the regulations that say it was done right.

[mikey]

Why do you guys focus on one incident or decision when talking about the championship?

[Dennis McCarthy]

Why do you guys focus on one incident or decision when talking about the championship?

Because people spend a lot of time and money to race. Obviously F1 is the ultimate racing chess match with many decisions being made in the pits by the various teams utilizing statistics and data to optimize their chances within the current ruleset.

When they make those decisions they have an expectation of the sanctioning body to follow the same ruleset they have put in place for that year.

No matter who you are racing with when you lose because the rules you are playing by are applied differently on different days you've thrown away all of that time and money and for all intentions the game may as well be fixed.....

[Thomas Copeland]

And that article says: With one lap remaining, Masi controversially allowed the lapped cars between. No other comments on the regulations being followed. No analysis of the regulation.



And that article says nothing about much - just a recap of the race.

Neither say anything like "It went down exactly the way it should have. EXACTLY."

No one is saying the results should change, but most are saying the rules need clarifying and that Masi screwed up.

I didn't think Racer.com was British:
https://racer.com/2021/12/12/opinion...-end-this-way/

Even Max fan Mansell says it wasn't the right way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5Ee0czVr5s

Peter Windsor is very much a Max fan and concludes the regulations weren't followed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4j-HOtNDMw

You stick with your "exactly" position. I'm open to finding someone to explain the interpretation of the regulations that say it was done right.

All right all right:

Daily Express:

Bernie weighs in

Former F1 chief executive Bernie Ecclestone has jumped to the defence of FIA race director Michael Masi despite suggesting that he is not the right man for the job on a long-term basis.
"In many cases he was overwhelmed with his job all season and maybe shouldn’t have had it at all," Ecclestone told Bild.

"In the end, though, he made the right decision to let Lewis and Max race against each other again on the last lap.

"It would have been unfair to end such a season and such a finish with the safety car.

"Hamilton would have been world champion and all the fans would have said: 'What are these stupid stewards doing?'

"No, he did the right thing in this case."


Sounds to me like exactly. That's just one example. There are others out there. But I got more important things to do than research all this.

When you're subjective you see what you want to see, when you're objective you see everything.

[FVRacer21]

Interesting - Liberty stock near high but not done much since the race - either stock holders not sure or outsiders not paying much attention.

Just to summarize before I sign off this thread, I have been critical of decisions all year, not just this last race, as the driving rulings do have some effect on new driver’s attitudes. As an instructor and mentor, it was one thing to fight the NASCAR mentality, I really don’t want to have to explain why not to drive like a F1 driver. ????

Plus, as Motorsports enthusiasts, we are asked about racing from the general populous, and I like to talk in positive terms.

ChrisZ

[Purple Frog]

I believe this is a forum used mostly by people who race open wheel cars or maybe did so in the last 30 years...

Put yourself in this example:

You are leading the Runoffs with only a few laps left. You find yourself not only in the lead but leading by 10 seconds and with 5 back markers between you and second place. Then another back marker wrecks and ends up parked in a dangerous location. Double yellow flags come out. During the next couple of laps the stewards allow the 5 backmarkers to get their lap back and pass you. They also allow 2nd place to move up behind you. Then they wave the green flag and white flag to signal one final lap under the green for the national championship.

What would you think of that deal?

I think you would be pissed that they took away all the advantage you had gained.

[lance3556]

Mercedes had plenty of options to change the tires, they made a calculated error. Not a big fan of the out come, but stuff happens when racing and the team at that level with how many smart people (50) sitting at the table made a judgement call that was not good for the end of the race.

To many media people have opinions rather than talk about facts, so lets all go and make the call after the fact, because we now have all the details and can probably make a better decision.

[TimH]

Meanwhile, how much did track design contribute to the need for a safety car in the first place?

[grapefarmeral]

Years ago I refereed High School, Junior High and Elementary school wrestling. No matter what call I made I pissed off 50% of the crowd. So if the scenario had been reversed, with Hamilton in second with newer tires, Max leading and the backmarkers between, the crash, the safety car, the jabbering on the radio to Masi, the restart and Hamilton passing Max in the same way and winning another title...well the controversy would be the same... that said, it was an exciting last lap..

[BorkRacing]

Interesting - Liberty stock near high but not done much since the race - either stock holders not sure or outsiders not paying much attention.

Just to summarize before I sign off this thread, I have been critical of decisions all year, not just this last race, as the driving rulings do have some effect on new driver’s attitudes. As an instructor and mentor, it was one thing to fight the NASCAR mentality, I really don’t want to have to explain why not to drive like a F1 driver. ????

Plus, as Motorsports enthusiasts, we are asked about racing from the general populous, and I like to talk in positive terms.

ChrisZ

The entire market is unsure right now. Not a good time to think ONE incident causes a drop in Liberty Stock. Brokers don't care who won or how, they want to know if Liberty is making money in all of its markets.

As far as the championship, in general people have been positive about it (exclude the media which is no longer relevant post covid). The only negative posts are here and really what does complaining do about it? Will they take the championship away? Will they give it to Hamilton so he can grow more arrogant and think even more we care what he thinks about the world?

[BorkRacing]

I believe this is a forum used mostly by people who race open wheel cars or maybe did so in the last 30 years...

Put yourself in this example:

You are leading the Runoffs with only a few laps left. You find yourself not only in the lead but leading by 10 seconds and with 5 back markers between you and second place. Then another back marker wrecks and ends up parked in a dangerous location. Double yellow flags come out. During the next couple of laps the stewards allow the 5 backmarkers to get their lap back and pass you. They also allow 2nd place to move up behind you. Then they wave the green flag and white flag to signal one final lap under the green for the national championship.

What would you think of that deal?

I think you would be pissed that they took away all the advantage you had gained.

This is only valid if it went the other way and Max did not pass Hamilton and you would still say it was a bad deal.

[Thomas Copeland]

I believe this is a forum used mostly by people who race open wheel cars or maybe did so in the last 30 years...

Put yourself in this example:

You are leading the Runoffs with only a few laps left. You find yourself not only in the lead but leading by 10 seconds and with 5 back markers between you and second place. Then another back marker wrecks and ends up parked in a dangerous location. Double yellow flags come out. During the next couple of laps the stewards allow the 5 backmarkers to get their lap back and pass you. They also allow 2nd place to move up behind you. Then they wave the green flag and white flag to signal one final lap under the green for the national championship.

What would you think of that deal?

I think you would be pissed that they took away all the advantage you had gained.

yeah...but it's called racing. It's a fluid situation.

I actually won an F2000 race at Laguna Seca in 2002 that same way. One lap last lap shootout. The other guy had a much newer car than me and a better motor and a faster car and a few seconds lead on me, somebody crashes, and after the safety car I had 2 cars between him and me (it proves it doesn't make any difference if you're determined - there could have been a million cars or none - ok maybe not a million). As we started the last lap they threw the green I drove totally balls out like I never did before got a run on him coming down from the Corkscrew and passed him on the 2nd to last corner of the last lap and won.

It's called racing man...

I don't get you guys....

[JustDave]

From MOTORSPORT.COM

"Sky Formula 1 pundit Martin Brundle says he wishes that Lewis Hamilton and Max Verstappen could share the world championship, in the wake of the controversial Abu Dhabi season finale."

Dave C.

[pleavens]

Years ago I refereed High School, Junior High and Elementary school wrestling. No matter what call I made I pissed off 50% of the crowd. So if the scenario had been reversed, with Hamilton in second with newer tires, Max leading and the backmarkers between, the crash, the safety car, the jabbering on the radio to Masi, the restart and Hamilton passing Max in the same way and winning another title...well the controversy would be the same... that said, it was an exciting last lap..

I didn't see it as that exciting.. more like inevitable. Don't care who you are, you are not going to hold off a driver of the same caliber over a full lap when..

A. Your on OLD hard tires
B. They are on NEW softs
C. Both cars are low fuel
D. You CANNOT afford a crash
E. Cars have relatively equal pace

IMO Once the decision was made the result was a forgone conclusion.

[BorkRacing]

From MOTORSPORT.COM

"Sky Formula 1 pundit Martin Brundle says he wishes that Lewis Hamilton and Max Verstappen could share the world championship, in the wake of the controversial Abu Dhabi season finale."

Dave C.

Once again why do we care what sports figures think?

[alangbaker]

But there is no way of knowing in advance that it wouldn't matter. There could have been a pileup in front of them.
That's why the implementation of the rule has always been is either unlap ALL or None.

Unless you've gone back and reviewed every safety car period since they introduce their use, I think "always" is a bit of a bold statement.

The purpose of letting cars unlap themselves is to let those who are racing race each other. In the context of the final race of the year with the championship on the line, surely one can rank which races between places are the most important.

[alangbaker]

I find the radio communications that went on between Hamilton and his engineer very interesting. I watch using F1TV and I reviewed the last laps watching Hamilton's in-car and listening to all his radio calls.

First of all, it's clear that Hamilton has no problem with radio comms just because he's racing hard. We'll come back to this.

When the incident first happens, Hamilton is vocal about his bad luck. And when he arrives behind the safety car he complains about its pace: repeatedly.

He is informed there are 5 cars between himself and Verstappen, and when he hears (and sees) that they are going to be let through, he makes NO complaint of unfairness even though he now knows that Verstappen will be starting right behind him on fresh(er?) soft tires.

He ONLY complains about the supposed unfairness of the situation ("this is being manipulated, man") AFTER he fails to defend into turn 5 AND hasn't repassed Verstappen in either of the two places where he had a legitimate chance—turn 6/7 and turn 9, and he doesn't get by because Verstappen did a far better job of defending his lead than Hamilton did.

Maybe no one else finds that telling, but to me, it suggests very much that Hamilton himself thought nothing of the situation.

[E1pix]

Once again why do we care what sports figures think?

Because they’re atop their field, and we may even learn something.

Beyond that, for better or worse, public opinion is swayed by anyone of influence.

The same “Why do we care?” has been repeatedly said of actors, media, politicians, advisors, Hell, everyone it seems of late. We don’t have to agree with someone to still have regard for why they’re where they are.

But would I take health advice from Martin Brundle? Probably not.

[RussMcB]

Frog, I agree, and inserted an extra, important bit (in bold italics):

<snip> ... Double yellow flags come out. During the next couple of laps the stewards allow the 5 backmarkers to get their lap back and pass you. They also allow 2nd place to come into the pits and get new Hoosier 35's, then move up behind you. Then they wave the green flag and white flag to signal one final lap under the green for the national championship.

What would you think of that deal?

I think you would be pissed that they took away all the advantage you had gained.

[intrepid]

One thing I hadn't realized about the lapped cars, is that the only reason they were between Hamilton and Max was because Max stopped for new tires. Max had cleared all of these cars before the safety car incident. At least that is the impression I got from Joe Saward's article on the race. (I can't re-watch to confirm, and I am not sure the ESPN coverage would have answered this question anyway.)

If this is the case, that might explain Masi's initial plan to leave the lapped cars in place, against the standard practice of allowing them to unlap themselves.

I still think that leaving those cars in their position between Hamilton and Max would have made a more satisfying conclusion to the ending.

[stonebridge20]

I believe this is a forum used mostly by people who race open wheel cars or maybe did so in the last 30 years...

Put yourself in this example:

You are leading the Runoffs with only a few laps left. You find yourself not only in the lead but leading by 10 seconds and with 5 back markers between you and second place. Then another back marker wrecks and ends up parked in a dangerous location. Double yellow flags come out. During the next couple of laps the stewards allow the 5 backmarkers to get their lap back and pass you. They also allow 2nd place to move up behind you. Then they wave the green flag and white flag to signal one final lap under the green for the national championship.

What would you think of that deal?

I think you would be pissed that they took away all the advantage you had gained.

I would defend going into T5 and not send an invitation for someone to drive a bus past me instead.

[CGOffroad]

i would defend going into t5 and not send an invitation for someone to drive a bus past me instead.

exactly

[BeerBudgetRacing]

No one is arguing about the racing. They all played the hands they were dealt as best they could.
With Max's tire advantage, whether Ham left a bus lane open or closed it off, Max was going to pass him on the exit.

We are disappointed with the "revision" of procedure that had an obvious affected on the race outcome.

Removing the lapped cars gave Max a free pitstop. The cost was and should been having to re-pass or re-lap cars.
Max's pitstop unlapped those 5 cars. Ham was the only one that remained in his position ahead of them.

The racing was great. The race directing sucked.

[Zonker]

A comment or two for those wanting to draw and quarter Michael Masi based on having spent a fair bit of time in the "hot seat" over
the years...


When an on track situation occurs you gotta do something NOW. The guy in "the chair" does not have the luxury of ruminating for some time, nor the benefit of multiple replays and advice from all and sundry. You have about 30 seconds or so to sort it out and make a decision. You gotta juggle the urgency of the situation (fire? Track blockage? Injury?) and also consider how much time is left in the race and how long it will take to clean it up.


As far as affecting the outcome of a race, anytime you bunch up the field either with a safety car or a total stop some will gain track position and some will lose. Nobody likes it but that's the nature of the beast.


Did Michael Masi get it wrong? IMHO the best solution was a red flag with the restart on fresh tires for all with four laps left, but hindsight is always 20-20 so I won't throw stones at him from the comfort of my recliner.

[Jim Garry]

Maybe no one else finds that telling, but to me, it suggests very much that Hamilton himself thought nothing of the situation.

And if he had complained it would have suggested to you that he's a big whiner.

[Jim Garry]

I would defend going into T5 and not send an invitation for someone to drive a bus past me instead.

If it was earlier in the race, or if he was on equal tires, I agree completely. But if he defended into T5, then he would certainly have been passed on the next 1 km straight. So I'm wondering if Ham let him go because it was inevitable AND he'd rather be behind and drafting for the next two straights.

[bob darcey]

.... because it was inevitable AND he'd rather be behind and drafting for the next two straights.

That is the way it looked to me.

[stonebridge20]

If it was earlier in the race, or if he was on equal tires, I agree completely. But if he defended into T5, then he would certainly have been passed on the next 1 km straight. So I'm wondering if Ham let him go because it was inevitable AND he'd rather be behind and drafting for the next two straights.

When MV went past LH in T5, it sucked the life blood out of LH and MV checked out to a 2.7 second margin of victory in less than one full lap. LH folded like a cheap suit.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

When an on track situation occurs you gotta do something NOW. The guy in "the chair" does not have the luxury of ruminating for some time, nor the benefit of multiple replays and advice from all and sundry. You have about 30 seconds or so to sort it out and make a decision. You gotta juggle the urgency of the situation (fire? Track blockage? Injury?) and also consider how much time is left in the race and how long it will take to clean it up.

Peter Windsor talks (link in my previous post) about the fact the Masi has like 2 helpers. The teams have dozens of strategists.
F1 needs to provide more people on the RD team.
I also agree with him that the RD's radio conversations should not be broadcast (thanks Liberty).

[DaveW]

When MV went past LH in T5, it sucked the life blood out of LH and MV checked out to a 2.7 second margin of victory in less than one full lap. LH folded like a cheap suit.

Having been in similar circumstances, it's a case of accepting the inevitable. Lewis, on his old hard tires, had absolutely no chance to recover after the pass, or IMO, to prevent it from happening.

The only way to prevent Max from passing and motoring off to a substantial lead would have been to cause a crash and that would have had absolutely no upside for anyone or anything any way you look at it.

As stated many times, basically Max had a no-risk pit stop for the new softs. Lewis did not have the same option.

So the best/only thing Lewis could do was exactly what he did - accept his crappy luck and behave like an adult, congratulating the "winners."

[BorkRacing]

So the best/only thing Lewis could do was exactly what he did - accept his crappy luck and behave like an adult, congratulating the "winners."

It's a shame Toto can't behave the same way. My order for a new Mercedes was cancelled that morning. I cannot support bad behavior that future drivers will copy. "I didn't win so I will protest"

[t walgamuth]

They used to require the cars to maintain the distance between them at Indy. I always thought this was fair....though impossible to enforce....we could enforce it today.

Allowing them to bunch up under yellow increased the excitement though.

[DaveW]

It's a shame Toto can't behave the same way. My order for a new Mercedes was cancelled that morning. I cannot support bad behavior that future drivers will copy. "I didn't win so I will protest"

I think that protesting the decision was forced on him by the corporate Mercedes presence. If he didn't explore the protest option, he'd have been in hot water. In a sport as high profile as F1, IMO, there was no choice on his part.

[stonebridge20]

Having been in similar circumstances, it's a case of accepting the inevitable. Lewis, on his old hard tires, had absolutely no chance to recover after the pass, or IMO, to prevent it from happening.

The only way to prevent Max from passing and motoring off to a substantial lead would have been to cause a crash and that would have had absolutely no upside for anyone or anything any way you look at it.

As stated many times, basically Max had a no-risk pit stop for the new softs. Lewis did not have the same option.

So the best/only thing Lewis could do was exactly what he did - accept his crappy luck and behave like an adult, congratulating the "winners."

Dave, you're probably spot on but could you explain "accepting the inevitable"
That does not compute in my smooth brain when it comes to racing.

[Jim Garry]

When MV went past LH in T5, it sucked the life blood out of LH and MV checked out to a 2.7 second margin of victory in less than one full lap. LH folded like a cheap suit.

I didn't see it that way. Ham made a pretty good run on Ver but the tires just wouldn't allow him to get the job done. He didn't truly fall off until they got into Sector 3. It only makes sense that he felt his only chance was to be behind going down the long straight.

[bob darcey]

... his only chance was to be behind going down the long straight.

I agree. The "inevitable" was that by pass or crash, Lewis wasn't going to finish ahead of Max.

[GregSmith]

A comment or two for those wanting to draw and quarter Michael Masi based on having spent a fair bit of time in the "hot seat" over
the years...


When an on track situation occurs you gotta do something NOW. The guy in "the chair" does not have the luxury of ruminating for some time, nor the benefit of multiple replays and advice from all and sundry. You have about 30 seconds or so to sort it out and make a decision. You gotta juggle the urgency of the situation (fire? Track blockage? Injury?) and also consider how much time is left in the race and how long it will take to clean it up.


As far as affecting the outcome of a race, anytime you bunch up the field either with a safety car or a total stop some will gain track position and some will lose. Nobody likes it but that's the nature of the beast.


Did Michael Masi get it wrong? IMHO the best solution was a red flag with the restart on fresh tires for all with four laps left, but hindsight is always 20-20 so I won't throw stones at him from the comfort of my recliner.

Jack, thanks for putting this into perspective, the key word being “NOW”. Masi didn’t do that, piddled around, changed his call on the lapped cars, etc., all while crucial laps wound down. From what I’ve seen on news reports his tenure with F1 will be ending soon if not already a done deal.

Given the enormity of the situation with all parties involved and his stated desire for a green flag racing end, a red flag would have been the only viable option IMHO.

And thank you for your service as Chief Steward over many years. Always a pleasure to work with you!