FC tire survey e-mail

[Brandon Dixon]

I got a chance to test the FC spec tire at Carolina Motorsports Park (Kershaw).

I ran some used R35 Hoosier radials and then switched to the bias R60. We had to make the change quickly so camber was just a SWAG and there is room for improvement based on the tire temps. The balance of the car and feel of the car were essentially identical.

There was some rain early in the day that meant that the track improved as the day went on, and it was my first ever trip to CMP, but I was 2.5 seconds quicker on the R60 spec tire. Wear was very good. The outlap had good grip.

We put about 70 miles on the spec tire. I think that we had a bit too much camber in the LF, but the tire held up just fine. I expect to easily do a majors weekend on one set with the ability to test/practice after. With a slightly reduced pace, two or more weekends would be possible.

I'm a long time Hoosier cheerleader, but my on-track experience with the FC spec tire was better than I expected.

[Steve Demeter]

The way I read the rule if you mess up a tire you are allowed to replace it with a USED one.
I would highly suggest FWIW to keep a set of not too bad tires on hand in case you mess up a tire and have to switch it out.

[Purple Frog]

Good team managers will always have one set of tires with only 3 scuff laps sitting in the trailer. One reason for test days... take a session to scuff tires.

[jpietz]

We tested the new tires at Thunderhill on March 19-21. I ran the race weekend as if I were adhering to the new rules. Tires were marked for first quali and then left unchanged for the weekend. We ran two 20 minute qualifiers, one 20 minute race and one 30 minute race.
The weather was mild with temps in the 60s to low 70s. Thunderhill is not usually hard on brakes or tires so much as Laguna.
In the last laps of the last race my times were comparable to my best times ( 1:50.3} of the weekend which by the way were all in the last race. So on a cool track that is easy on tires with a mediocre fast driver the Hoosiers held up well.

However, I had Ethan Shippert drive my car on a test day at Thunderhill with similar weather conditions.
He is some kind of quick. My best time in my car at Thill is 1:49.9. The lap record set in 2014 is 1:44.9.
Ethan took my car out and on his first flying lap he ran a 1:44.5. Eventually he ran a 143.5. He did 5 heat cycles on the tires of about 3-5 laps each. By the fifth cycle he felt the tires were going away significantly. I put a 6th and 7th cycle on the same set of tires and I was able to run a 1:50.9.

So the spec tire may be more of an issue for faster drivers in general.
It also remains to be seen how they hold up at a hard braking track like laguna on a hot day.
I suspect tire management will be an issue. I hope people are not skipping sessions on the track because we are saving a few
bucks on the tire prices. I suspect we will need a harder compound before we get done with this.

Jeff Pietz

[Rick Iverson]

Jeff;

Good input, friend.

We tested the new tires at Thunderhill on March 19-21. I ran the race weekend as if I were adhering to the new rules. Tires were marked for first quali and then left unchanged for the weekend. We ran two 20 minute qualifiers, one 20 minute race and one 30 minute race.
The weather was mild with temps in the 60s to low 70s. Thunderhill is not usually hard on brakes or tires so much as Laguna.
In the last laps of the last race my times were comparable to my best times ( 1:50.3} of the weekend which by the way were all in the last race. So on a cool track that is easy on tires with a mediocre fast driver the Hoosiers held up well.

However, I had Ethan Shippert drive my car on a test day at Thunderhill with similar weather conditions.
He is some kind of quick. My best time in my car at Thill is 1:49.9. The lap record set in 2014 is 1:44.9.
Ethan took my car out and on his first flying lap he ran a 1:44.5. Eventually he ran a 143.5. He did 5 heat cycles on the tires of about 3-5 laps each. By the fifth cycle he felt the tires were going away significantly. I put a 6th and 7th cycle on the same set of tires and I was able to run a 1:50.9.

So the spec tire may be more of an issue for faster drivers in general.
It also remains to be seen how they hold up at a hard braking track like laguna on a hot day.
I suspect tire management will be an issue. I hope people are not skipping sessions on the track because we are saving a few
bucks on the tire prices. I suspect we will need a harder compound before we get done with this.

Jeff Pietz

[Lyngengr]

I switched to the spec Hoosiers at Laguna last weekend, from bias-ply Avons. The diameters of the Hoosiers are smaller in the front and essentially the same in the rear, so we had to change front ride height, but nothing else. Left camber the same, around -1 deg in the front and -0.5 deg in the rear. Looking for around 19 psi hot with the Hoosiers.

I wanted to go out in the morning practice session with the Hoosiers but the track wouldn't let me in on Friday to have the tires mounted, so I went out in the qual session with the new tires. I tried to gradually bring the tires up to temp, doing a few slow laps, then started pushing. I really didn't notice much difference between the Hoosiers and Avons. I ended up on pole with the Hoosiers on a cool and relatively green track, about a second off my best time.

The short race (25 minutes) was uneventful. The long race on Sunday (35 minutes) was surprising. Started fine, no issues with warming up the tires on the pace lap. Was good until about 2/3 thru the race, and the car started to get "nervous." Moving around a lot on braking, low speed push. Going to full soft on the front roll bar helped but didn't cure the push. Laguna is notorious for low speed push so probably not entirely the tires, but the general nervousness was tire specific. High speed corners were fine.

Tires look pretty good after the 3 sessions. I plan to use those for a test day in a couple of weeks. So overall, I'd say the spec tires work fine, and with some setup adjustments, probably just as fast as the Avons.

[Chas Shaffer]

1 lap in qualifying and a regional race in which I pulled off early. It was sunny and hot. I wasn’t pushing hard since I was the only FC there. All four tires are separating at the mold line. The car had a horrible vibration after only a few laps. No way I could have made it through a majors qualy and two major races.

This is on a car that could make a major race distance on R25’s in the past.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Geez!
Not the experience others have been having.

What was your setup? Car? Pressures?

[Adriancnh]

Mine also separating on the mold line on left rear and the right front. Hoosier rep said "should be fine but doesn't look good"... Whatever that means..

This developed after about 2x 20min sessions

RF95, 18psi hot with a very professional alignment
20210612_140435_HDR.jpg20210612_140350.jpg

[rallaer]

1 lap in qualifying and a regional race in which I pulled off early. It was sunny and hot. I wasn’t pushing hard since I was the only FC there. All four tires are separating at the mold line. The car had a horrible vibration after only a few laps. No way I could have made it through a majors qualy and two major races.

This is on a car that could make a major race distance on R25’s in the past.

Mine also separating on the mold line on left rear and the right front. Hoosier rep said "should be fine but doesn't look good"... Whatever that means..

This developed after about 2x 20min sessions

RF95, 18psi hot with a very professional alignment

I am very interested in knowing when you guys bought these tires and which distributor did you get them from?

[BeerBudgetRacing]

I am very interested in knowing when you guys bought these tires and which distributor did you get them from?

And do they have manufacturing marks or batch numbers?

[Adriancnh]

I am very interested in knowing when you guys bought these tires and which distributor did you get them from?

Bought them less than 2 months ago from a distributor here in Canada. They were drop shipped from whatever Hoosier warehouse.

[DaveW]

I've seen that sort of thing in the past. In my experience, it has usually been related to slightly uneven curing/temperature in the tire mold. That sort of area would likely have been slightly cooler, and so that part of the tire would have cured a bit less. Since cure level is critical to performance, any deviation from optimal causes issues. Too much cure and the tire tread rubber can get too stiff plus lose hysteresis and adhesive components and thus grip would be compromised, similar to what happens after many heat cycles or extended storage in a hot environment. Too little cure, and the compound may have more grip and less tensile strength, especially anywhere components were joined. This can result in the compound delaminating or tearing.

Tire manufacturers make every effort to cure as evenly as possible, but things can happen to compromise the molding process and may not be detected until after the fact. So even the best ones can have an issue.

[Chas Shaffer]

I should mention that the tires felt amazing, had grip immediately and I was able to go quickly on them without pushing very hard. Wear was excellent and I anticipate they'll last a long time. I went out on R35's for the test day since I had them and preferred the R60's.

Hoosier is a top notch tire company and I have no doubt they will address the situation quickly. I'll be going out again in a few weeks and will let you all know what I experience on the next set.

[DaveW]

Speaking about feeling amazing, the FRP spec F2000 55A radial tires are way beyond my expectations. At PIRC, they gave super feedback and good grip on the 1st hot lap out of the pits. And they maintained it throughout the sessions and race.

Also at PIRC, I used only used tires from Mid-Ohio and Carolina Motorsports Park throughout the weekend, and they were as good after 7 heat cycles as they were new. I found that I was somewhat under-geared everywhere because I was carrying more speed through every turn and gaining more on the straights than with any of the previous FRP spec tires. They look like they could do at least 4 more sessions based on the feel and wear.

I'll have to go up a tooth in each gear to correct the under-gearing. I also have yet to optimize my setup or maximize my performance on these tires. So we'll be faster yet when I do.

I had a new set mounted and ready to go, but I saw no reason to use them.

[Tim Minor]

I have used both the Radial & Bias ply both R60 compounds and while I have not experienced what some people found I do know if there was any potential safety problems Hoosier Tire would correct it.
I have done extensive testing with this company and can say they strive to build top shelf products for every series they compete in and are the first ones to address any problems.
I have been using the new R60 Bias tires and my experience has been positive,but I certainly will keep a close look at my tires and see if we experience any of these issues.
Hoosier is trying to help this class grow and keep our participation numbers going in the right direction and we should thank them for that.
Hope to see everyone at Indy,It’s going to be a great event
Tim MinorFc88

[Adriancnh]

I have used both the Radial & Bias ply both R60 compounds and while I have not experienced what some people found I do know if there was any potential safety problems Hoosier Tire would correct it.
I have done extensive testing with this company and can say they strive to build top shelf products for every series they compete in and are the first ones to address any problems.
I have been using the new R60 Bias tires and my experience has been positive,but I certainly will keep a close look at my tires and see if we experience any of these issues.
Hoosier is trying to help this class grow and keep our participation numbers going in the right direction and we should thank them for that.
Hope to see everyone at Indy,It’s going to be a great event
Tim MinorFc88

If you could lead me to whoever cares that'd be great, they certainly didn't give two ****s when I emailed them lol.

[problemchild]

The people at Hoosier who have the ability to resolve this are now aware of the issue. I am sure that a solution will be forthcoming.

[Adriancnh]

The people at Hoosier who have the ability to resolve this are now aware of the issue. I am sure that a solution will be forthcoming.

Perfect, I shall shoot them another email... I'm happy to buy another set as the tire itself sure performs.

[Steve Demeter]

I have looked high and low and probably have looked right at 5 times, but can someone PLEASEEEEE point me in the right direction to find it. Thanks

[BeerBudgetRacing]

I have looked high and low and probably have looked right at 5 times, but can someone PLEASEEEEE point me in the right direction to find it. Thanks

9.1.1.20.B

Around page 238-9 in the July GCR

[Steve Demeter]

Thanks!!!

[Steve Demeter]

say someone has a set of spec tires with a cycle or two left on them. And they want to use them for practice and then use their one allotted set of new tires for quually and the race. The way i read the rule this is not allowed since one is only allowed to change out 1 tire in the course of a weekend and that tire must be sufficiently damages as approved by an official. That guy is stuck with a set of tires that can not be used up.

Say someone like me who makes Mr. Purple look like the last of the big spenders has a set of used tires with a couple of cycles left. normally I would "use them up" them switch to another used set that is not used up as much. Again,, the way I read the rule I am out of luck.

This is posed as a question that might suggest a tweak of the rule might be in order to say change the wording to allow only 1 NEW set per weekend.

Just my humble opinion and asking what thoughts others might have.

[DaveW]

New and used tires are all the same per the rules. As long as you declare and get marked the 4 you want for the "official" sessions, you're good to go. At PIRC last month I used 4 used FRP F2K spec radials for the Q's & R's. At the end of race 2 they had 7 heat cycles and were fabulous!

Per the latest GCR:
h. FC shall be permitted a maximum of four (4) dry tires and four (4) wet tires for all Regional, Major and
Super Tour events; eight (8) dry tires and eight (8) wet tires for Runoffs. This rule shall be effective
beginning with the first (1st) qualifying session of the event. It is the responsibility of the competitor to
ensure that their tires are declared, marked and logged by Tech in advance of their on-track session(s).
1. Use of an undeclared tire shall automatically result in all times being disallowed in that session
or finishing position in that race.
2. If a tire is damaged during a qualifying session or a race the competitor may replace the damaged
tire with a used tire upon approval by the Chief Steward without loss of time or finishing position.
Second or subsequent damaged tires may similarly be replaced upon approval by the Chief Steward,
however such shall result in the loss of grid position in the subsequent race or session; the competitor
shall start at the back of the grid.

[EYERACE]

Examples
#1
Non-RunOffs weekend. Friday test day. No one will care what set (sticker or new) or brand or compound type tire they run.
#1A
Saturday starts with a Practice session (again - run anything - and someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think I'm getting it right).....even if one has already declared a set of spec tires as what will be used for Qualy or Races, they could still run anything for the Practice session. Qualifying later in the day will require FC to declare by then a set of spec tires they're going to run (not necessarily sticker specs)......and use same set for the rest of weekend.

#2
No test day Friday. First session Saturday is Qualifying.....go out on your declared spec tire.....and use same for rest of weekend.

#3
perhaps argue with Tech after Qualifying or first race as to how bad your "flat-spotted" spec tire(s) are such that one will need to replace 'em. Can you see this coming? Anybody had to switch out a 'declared tire' yet ?? Please mention what happened and how things went.........

[problemchild]

Per the latest GCR:
h. FC shall be permitted a maximum of four (4) dry tires and four (4) wet tires for all Regional, Major and
Super Tour events; eight (8) dry tires and eight (8) wet tires for Runoffs. This rule shall be effective
beginning with the first (1st) qualifying session of the event. It is the responsibility of the competitor to
ensure that their tires are declared, marked and logged by Tech in advance of their on-track session(s).
1. Use of an undeclared tire shall automatically result in all times being disallowed in that session
or finishing position in that race.
2. If a tire is damaged during a qualifying session or a race the competitor may replace the damaged
tire with a used tire upon approval by the Chief Steward without loss of time or finishing position.
Second or subsequent damaged tires may similarly be replaced upon approval by the Chief Steward,
however such shall result in the loss of grid position in the subsequent race or session; the competitor
shall start at the back of the grid.

The rule is very clear. It is a good rule. The tires are cheap and durable. For the cost of wheels, and tire mounting, swapping out cheap used tires for other cheap used tires during a race event is counter productive to the individual racer's best interests, and the intentions and benefits of having a spec tire. Either you are competitive enough that you need to abide by the spec tire rules, or you are uncompetitive enough that no one will care. The rule is fine as it is.

We are seeing very little degradation in tires after 8 sessions while running at lap record pace. I would expect slower pace would allow people to run 4-5 events on a single set of new tires. Of course, the ones trying to win, will be running 1 or 2 events on a set, so the tire will work well for the range of competitors with different agendas.

We have now run 3 events on 8 new tires (3 wins, two 2nds). There is probably 4-5 hours of testing/practice time left on those 8 tires, should we have budget to pay for all the other costs associated with 4-5 hours of testing..

[Steve Demeter]

Dave, my question was say I start with a set of used almost used up tires Saturday for the two sessions. And after the second session (race) they are totally used up, the way the rule seems to read to me is that the other "used but not used up" set I have already mounted and balanced can not be used for Sunday's quallly and race since one is allowed only 4 dry tires for a weekend. Meaning that I would be stuck with running Saturdays totally used up set on Sunday. Make more sense as to what I am getting at. I always start out with used tries.

Ah but you see Greg, I do my own mount and balance. So no cost involved and I have 2 sets of dry wheels.

NOT griping. Just trying to make sure I am thinking correctly.

[DaveW]

Yes, Steve, you are understanding the rule correctly. To have all your times and finishes count, you will have to run both qualifying sessions and both races during that race weekend on the total of one set of 4 tires, which you had to declare and mark. Of course, if you run more than 4 tires, any qualifying positions or race finishes on the unmarked tires will not count. That is your decision to make.

The way I see it, these tires are durable enough to easily run more than 4 sessions, so you just have to manage your tire inventory to accomplish what you want in the most practical way for you.

[EYERACE]

So Steve - instead of flat spot. as per my #3 example, you'd be saying to Officials > your Saturday tires are "too far gone" to run the Sunday. If they're down to showing cord....well probably you'd get to change them out.....other than that what might "too far gone" mean?

In Club Ford the spec Hoosier 60s can be run down to cord - but since there's no rule for Club Ford as a declared tire set, I've never known of problem with Officials when someone slapped on stickers for Sunday. I've seen that done.

So it's back to my question as per #3.....anybody had to change out a 'declared' tire yet ?? ....under what circumstance ??

[Dennis McCarthy]

Seems to me there are a lot of folks who are spending much more time worrying about hypotheticals of no real consequence than racing. Day one of runoffs registration and 17 signed up. Let’s go racing….

[Steve Demeter]

Point taken Dennis.

I normally buy used tires from John B. Figuring that I can get 6 cycles out of them. It is a bit of a stretch. Doing 3 double weekends =12 cycles.

Normally I would run set a for the first weekend and Saturday on the second weekend, then switch to set b.

But having to run the same 4 tires for an entire weekend means getting 8 cycles out of an already used set, which may be a bit of a stretch. Hence my concern. Hope my inane questions make a bit more sense now.

Thanks for all the replies.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

I normally buy used tires from John B. Figuring that I can get 6 cycles out of them. It is a bit of a stretch. Doing 3 double weekends =12 cycles.

Not sure what you are paying for used sets, but I suspect there won't be a lot of good used FC spec tires.
And, at approx $700/set (+tax+mount) and no shipping if you buy them at the track, they have to be within $$ range of used.

If you are paying for mounting those costs add up and quick math (questionable accuracy) says you can go the same distance with 3 sets of new v 4 sets of used.

And you get more cycles (the first ones).

So, maybe its time for a tire re-think.

[EYERACE]

The Club Ford Hoosier R60s would be good for some drivers an entire season - translate 5 weekends. So 8 cycles out of John's used FC R60s seems possible to me

[BeerBudgetRacing]

The Club Ford Hoosier R60s would be good for some drivers an entire season - translate 5 weekends. So 8 cycles out of John's used FC R60s seems possible to me

No doubt, but my thought is: will JB be able to source used FC spec tires.

Since we are limited to 1 set a weekend, and 2 or 3 sets for the runoffs (where people would bring 5),
they aren't using 3 sets a weekend and dumping them after 2 cycles.

And, since the tire rule requires a previously used (marked) tire for damage replacement, last race weekend tires become practice tires - and you hang on to your best used tires - just in case.

So, at best, a used set would have 4 cycles on them? and probably a lot of wear...

[problemchild]

Our tires from the June Sprints and Thompson (5 sessions) have no visible wear. You would need a depth gauge to monitor it. I would imagine that cars going 5-10 seconds per lap off the pace would not have any wear whatsoever. I really think that the time managing old take-off tires would be better spent trying to improve performance. I cannot believe that there will be much performance change between 8 or 10 or 12 or 16 session tires, nore that they would suddenly wear out at some point, after surviving many sessions.

Instead of fighting the spec tires, let them work for you! People that are trying to get maximum tire life are the ones that can benefit most ..... if they allow that to happen.

[Steve Demeter]

Good point Greg about the performance probably not changing between 8,10 or 12 cycles. My tire management consists of well this set feels shot I will put the other set on for now and see what happens.Had not thought of that.

Not fighting at all. Just trying to fully understand the options and implications.

Beer Budget, I am paying About $350 a set from John , delivered. I mount them myself and also balance them myself.

I was asking to understand rule was for only 4 tires per weekend or 4 NEW tires a weekend.

Trying to make sure I had full grasp. Since one could start out with 4 new tires and say puncture one and replace it with a used tire. Now what happens, I know the odds are very long against it , say if said driver picks up a second puncture?

I am trying to run through what if's as well as understand the rule thoroughly so perhaps an issue such as this will be addressed before some poor devil has that second puncture and everyone is wondering what do we do now.

As I said in my OP I think that maybe there might be a tweak here or there needed after time for lots of floks to think about it.

[Purple Frog]

The Captain and I are thinking this over...

Why not buy one set of NEW tyres and run them 3 weekends (with tires you know their whole history),

Instead of buying three sets of JB's tires* (one set for each weekend) at $350 a set and going through the hassle of mounting and balancing 3 sets. And, dealing with 12 tires you know nothing of their history.

YMMV

*note: Now that we are on spec tyres, just how good can the tires be that end up with JB?

[Steve Demeter]

Great idea!!!!!

But I already have 2 used sets.

But there is next year!!!!!!!

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Our tires from the June Sprints and Thompson (5 sessions) have no visible wear. You would need a depth gauge to monitor it. I would imagine that cars going 5-10 seconds per lap off the pace would not have any wear whatsoever. I really think that the time managing old take-off tires would be better spent trying to improve performance. I cannot believe that there will be much performance change between 8 or 10 or 12 or 16 session tires, nore that they would suddenly wear out at some point, after surviving many sessions.

Instead of fighting the spec tires, let them work for you! People that are trying to get maximum tire life are the ones that can benefit most ..... if they allow that to happen.

So, last weekend was my 4th weekend on the first set of spec tires I bought (and 4th in the car).
More than 16 sessions. Couple spins. A few weed abatement adventures.

I think there was 12 FCs, 16 FFs, and a few FST/FV.
In Saturdays race I matched my best time from the previous race 8 weeks ago.

Sundays race was a bit of a mess with 2 double-yellows. With 2 laps to go I thought the tires had finally given up.
No front grip.
Then as I slowed down I realized one end of my front wing was dragging on the ground!
For us blunt end runners - these things might go 5 weekends !

No, I don't plan to try for 5. But I am amazed at how much rubber remains. They really hold pebbles well.

In the paddock no one had bad things to say about these tires. No one thinking they were on the wrong tire.
No one saying the tire is holding them back. None of that.

This is a good thing.

[Steve Demeter]

That is GREAT^ to hear!!! Beer