Congratulations Greg and Simon - yes indeed, Simon is a deserving champion.
Congratulations Greg and Simon - yes indeed, Simon is a deserving champion.
In-car video?
Anybody got any in-car video to share? I'd love to watch that super-competitive race again from in-car.
Jim
Swift DB-1
Talent usually ends up in front, but fun goes from the front of the grid all the way to the back.
Jeff Bartz in car.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k396RxAZHJU
Man, that was awesome! Thanks for posting it. Not often you get to see that level of talent on display, in the camera car, and all around. Really fabulous vantage point for the action too.. Love the helmet cam too. Unbelievably good video, even able to see the mirrors, which was really cool. Congratulations on a great race, Jeff!
Jim
Swift DB-1
Talent usually ends up in front, but fun goes from the front of the grid all the way to the back.
Wow!
I could do that for about four laps in the seventies LOL
Wow
Wow great clean competitive racing - the pros could learn from these guys that you can race clean and close. What a race!
Great racing! Reminds me of the '77 runoffs at Road Atlanta - 10-car lead pack until a couple of laps from the end !Originally Posted by tlusk31
That's the way we used to race back then - no one blocked. We just worked on our strategy as the race developed and hoped we were in the right place to pass before the bridge on the last lap.
Dave Weitzenhof
That was an epic race. I recall a 17-car lead group one year, but not sure when... 1979?
I had to rewind it around the 29+ minute point to catch the yellow flag. Reminded me of '05 when the sun was behind the yellow flag. At that instant looking forward nothing looks amiss, then once around the corner then you see the red truck... oops. I can imagine in the intensity of that battle one could miss seeing that flag.
Minutes later... A little bird pointed out that I got it all wrong. Said Tim's infraction was not at T14 at 29 minute mark. So I was all wrong in my evaluation.
But... that flag at 29+ minutes at T14 was hard to see if you are watching in-car video.
Last edited by Purple Frog; 10.13.20 at 2:15 PM. Reason: Intercept from above
It wasn't shown with much enthusiasm, either, considering the location of the incident. Since they all got through safely I suspect all would have been fine if he'd just given the positions back right away.I had to rewind it around the 29+ minute point to catch the yellow flag. Reminded me of '05 when the sun was behind the yellow flag. At that instant looking forward nothing looks amiss, then once around the corner then you see the red truck... oops. I can imagine in the intensity of that battle one could miss seeing that flag.
Caldwell D9B - Sold
Crossle' 30/32/45 Mongrel - Sold
RF94 Monoshock - here goes nothin'
3:20 area of video will get you the obvious blowing of the waving yellow and the passing of two cars.
Yes, obviously, intentionally, as the first opportunity it is safe to do so giving the position back accompanied by an "ooops I was focused on making the pass and missed the flag" gesture would quite likely go un-protested by a fellow competitor. However, a corner worker or tow operator may feel very differently about the fact that less attention/regard was given to their safety and file a protest against the offender anyway.
I think a penalty is required in both instances, however, I think the sportsman-like thing to do is immediately give the position back being crystal clear that you are giving it back so the exchange is not to be confused with the guy you just passed under yellow passing you back while racing.
I wonder if the penalty given of 6 places didn't break down as:
- One place for the place you should have given back (because you can't gain a place illegally(
- Five more for the actual penalty for passing under yellow.
I, too, think that a penalty is appropriate for the act itself. Giving back the place is good sportsmanship, but the whole point of the rule is to reduce the risks to the safety workers at an incident. If all you have to do is give back the place if you get it wrong, you will get people pushing the envelope. The penalty MUST be painful enough to make taking the risk of incurring it too unpalatable.
I'm sitting in a recliner, doing zero MPH, with no cars around me, and I know there is a flag at that station, but I don't really see it before I see the nose of Tim's car. Maybe it's these new glasses, the camera angle, or maybe it's the yellow leaves, but it seems an easy flag to miss. Bummer for Tim, if that's what happened. Not disagreeing with the SOM, and I agree the rule has to be enforced for everyone's safety, [seen or not seen] but it is always something of a downer when races [or football games] get decided on a penalty call. On the other hand, Simon drove a superb race, and didn't pass under yellow, and certainly deserves the Gold. I'm glad FF has such outstanding young talent in our class. We will lose him to something further up the ladder, and soon I suspect, but I'm glad I got to watch him race a Formula Ford!
Jim
Swift DB-1
Talent usually ends up in front, but fun goes from the front of the grid all the way to the back.
The flag that Mike is referring to is quite a bit easier to miss given the sun angle and the lack of sharpness/contrast. However, the yellow at the 3:20ish mark is quite apparent, and would be even moreso on track IF 120 degrees of your vision isn't being obstructed by the gearbox in front of you.
I've been in that situation, and missed several yellows because of being intent on the car just in front of me. Luckily I never did that when the penalty was so significant (losing a national championship). So I feel bad for Tim because it's obvious to me that he would never violate a yellow on purpose.
I hope he doesn't feel as bad about it as I would under the same circumstances. I know that when I do something like that it bothers me for a long time.
Dave Weitzenhof
I suspect Bartz has that exact feeling for Turn 3 on the last lap. Otherwise once he went to 1st, he was dead perfect. Very impressive run for him.
A couple random thoughts of mine:
I doubt that he purposely violated the yellow to gain an advantage.
I also seriously doubt once he easily made the pass on two cars and then had the incident scene immediately in his vision, that he didn't realize he had just blown a yellow. But what do you do at the point (sportsmanship aside)that would prevent you being penalized?
Before a corner worker/emergency crew member gets hurt perhaps SCCA needs to re-examine the way they handle yellow flag situations.
Allowing passes until perpendicular to the yellow flag station means nobody in any kind of battle is going to slow as they approach the yellow flag station. What happens when the accident is 300 feet beyond the flag station? 50 feet? 5 feet?
If we are still racing hard and in a tight-ish group, chances of trailing drivers seeing the yellow goes down tremendously. Seeing a hand up and a lifting of the throttle from leading cars would be enough to get folks attention, but also allow you to be legally passed by a gaggle of cars. So that's not happening. I certainly don't want FCY and restarts. Maybe two stations display yellow? One standing yellow where it is safe to race to that yellow. Followed by a station with a waving yellow where you are expected to have slowed considerably. Racers who blow the first yellow would be permitted to give back the position before the waving yellow station? Just spit-balling.
Some of the best racing I’ve ever seen. Thank you for the in car video.
There is a tool available to race control to prevent the scenario you paint and it was used in this situation. The incident was just past 3 which was showing a waving yellow. Station 2 had a standing yellow. That's the one he missed.
Peter Olivola
(polivola@gmail.com)
I guess I am old school. I still throw a hand up. If anything maybe it helps a corner worker notice that I got passed after seeing the yellow. I don't let people go by easily and I don't lift suddenly, but I like to make it known that I saw it at least.
I think turn two could have done a much better job making that flag visible. It was sort of just lazy hanging on the wall. I thought I saw it in real time in the broadcast but it was hard to tell for sure on my screen. Maybe not waving there, but certainly more prominent.
Apologies for ignorance on this and I’m sure it’s been discussed ad nauseum here, but...
What are the hurdles preventing on-dash lights?
Yes, I saw both the standing and the waving. The pass was made between the standing and waving.
I'm suggesting that the opportunity should exist to give the position back between the standing and waving without penalty. Of course that's also counting on everybody understanding that giving the position back isn't actually the previously overtaken car making a pass under yellow
You can still be passed after seeing the yellow as long as they pass you before getting perpendicular to the yellow.
Lifting suddenly, certainly dependent on situation, what's prudent/required. If I have someone's nose up my tailpipe that's not happening. If I'm the trailing car and the leading car didn't slow appreciably, I'm not likely to either. Debris/cars/workers on the racing surface, yeah I'm slowing a bit.
Cost is usually given as the primary. I think it would be equally a question of implementation including training and consistency.
Peter Olivola
(polivola@gmail.com)
Up here in BC, we use the standing then waving yellow system, and I like your refinement!
The whole point of the first yellow is that there is an incident in the track sector following the one where the standing yellow is displayed, so yeah: if you pass after the standing but before the waving, you should be allowed to avoid penalty by simply giving the place back.
But if you pass in a sector with a waving yellow: no. There should be a penalty over and above giving back the position.
Another video. From Burton Kyle August's car.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIExL1H3kdU
He likely would've gotten passed in any case - pos 2 & 3 were just waiting for the right time to do it. Bartz was the "rabbit" giving 2 & 3 a tow before the final attack. I've been both the attacker and the attackee in that situation.
Dave Weitzenhof
Thanks. Great race, and great video. I think I'll be watching this race, from one vantage point or another, all winter.
Jim
Swift DB-1
Talent usually ends up in front, but fun goes from the front of the grid all the way to the back.
Damn--that #70 lacks awareness, doesn't he? He's a danger to himself and others!
Nice race!
And yeah... ...#70 nearly had two cars off on the first lap.
Clarifying it’s not Bob Perona, car is #10.
With respect, exiting turn 1 on the first lap, car #70 ran wide letting the #23 car (I think based on who didn't finish up front for the front half of the grid) get almost (perhaps only 6" behind) completely along side him as they approached turn-in for turn 2 and the #70 ran into him.
Then as they ran down the straight away from turn 2, the contact at turn 1 left the #70 car a little vulnerable and both the #85 and Kyle Burton's car (the camera car) had a run on him. As the progressed down the straight #70 squeezed #85 (Livingston, I believe a litte) before forcing Kyle's car two wheels off the road. If Kyle hadn't gone two wheels off, there would have been wheel to wheel contact at greater than 116 MPH.
That's just wrong.
Pushed off one driver at turn 1, then forced another driver who had a run on him to drive two wheels on the grass.
There is no doubt the car number was 70, and the official results say that it was driven by Bob Perona.
If I were steward, he'd have been penalized if someone brought me that video; at least once.
You can clearly see the number is 70 at 0:56.
https://youtu.be/DIExL1H3kdU?t=56
Sorry Gents, my bad... I missed Alan's "first lap" reference, thinking we were referring to later incidents with #10, including one at about 25:07.
Definitely some "sense of place" errors from both cars. Camera car definitely did well to protect himself.
Thanks for the clarity.
#70 cost one guy his race by driving into him, and nearly did it to the camera car too. He also caused the incident that led to the yellow-flag penalty for the eventual on-track winner. Lack of situational awareness seems a bit of an an understatement, to me.
Of course, the driver of the camera-car probably has a few choice words for car #10 [lap 12, turn 5] also.
Some of this is Red Mist, no doubt, and I won't claim I could run so close without a bit of those kind of mistakes myself. However, the camera-car driver [Kyle August, I think] did a heck of job staying on track and out of [hard] contact while driving far faster than i can pull off, even out of traffic, Nice work!
Last edited by swiftdrivr; 10.15.20 at 11:05 AM.
Jim
Swift DB-1
Talent usually ends up in front, but fun goes from the front of the grid all the way to the back.
Careful not to confuse lack of awareness with lack of respect.
Agreed.
He MIGHT not have been aware of the car he put off at Turn 2...
Pardon me, I mean and meant Turn 3; I always forget RA calls that almost imperceptible kind "Turn 2"
—I'm sure he was busy gathering it up after exceed track limits at turn 1...
...but there is NO excuse for his squeezing off the camera car on the straight.
With good reason. It may not be a turn from a driver's perspective, but it covers an impact zone for cars hooking right exiting 1.
Peter Olivola
(polivola@gmail.com)
Sorry... ...but I don't understand why that means you should call it a turn.
It's not a turn.
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