"Normal" vs Vintage Racing
Hey everyone, it's me again. Things changed up a bit this year as far as budget went so I sort of missed out on the open wheel fun, but I am yet again doing research for this possible year. Could someone explain the difference between these two? Is one cheaper than the other? I am guessing vintage Vee/Ford cars are slower than the newer counterparts. I'd like to know the differences.
The big difference is attitude. Vintage racers try to keep their first priority the ability to load up undamaged at the end of the weekend. Real racers want to win.
A true vintage car can be at least as expensive to buy/maintain as something more modern. Club Ford, however, can be pretty affordable.
In all cases, the driver is usually more important than the car in determining speed.
Caldwell D9B - Sold
Crossle' 30/32/45 Mongrel - Sold
RF94 Monoshock - here goes nothin'
I’d add, vintage TENDS to have rules more “stationary”. You usually don’t have to do a lot of updates to keep up with the Joneses because car rules generally don’t change aside from safety equipment.
I know this is being picky/weird, but Formula Vee vs Vintage Vee and Formula Ford vs Club Ford. Are the performance differences noticeable (X amount of seconds?)Originally Posted by TimH
You say that as if those things are mutually exclusive. If you have a big budget, crew, and you only need to do well in a few events to qualify for the runoffs, crash away. But if you're broken, or just broke from paying for parts, then you aren't racing. There are plenty of real racers in vintage - they just don't value a 5% move over the consequences.
Car counts
Car counts are MUCH higher in vintage, like multiples of SCCA, runoffs, or FRP. I don't mean that as a cheap shot, just an objective data point. Also, the treaded tires most vintage organizations use are affordable, consistent, and absolute crap their first heat cycle. This prevents people from overspending on rubber just to makeup a few spots on the grid. The treads also require a different driving approach than slicks.
It's also nice to see chassis diversity.
Historically, vintage drivers have been looked upon as 'slow', or not 'real racers'. Those who know, know.
Good luck with your decision,
Scott
Trust me, you will not be anywhere near the front your first few years whether you run vintage or SCCA. So I would not worry about how fast the fastest cars go.
You are in NJ, the middle of Vintage Racer Groups scope of races. Come to one or 2 and talk to us.
Robby
Maybe car counts are higher with Vintage Ford but that's not the case with FV.
You live in the perfect place to take advantage of the two largest FV groups in the country. The North East FV group and the Challenge cup continue to grow and regularly get 25+ cars and single class run groups.
The Challenge cup with the Falken tires last years and the new spec slicks that the NEFV group run last much longer than the old slick.
Modern FV vs. Vintage is something like 4-8 seconds a lap depending on the track.
Both groups would be happy to have you visit. People are more than willing to let you sit in their cars and give you advice.
Last edited by B Farnham; 12.30.19 at 11:39 PM.
I have no experience with Vee but if you got a CF, you can race with any organization. Most Vintage groups run CF on the treaded tires and most SCCA Regions have a harder Spec tire rule (Hoosier R60, American Racer).
In Vintage, 4 wheels off will get you a visit from an unhappy official. Contact with another car is worse (although I don't have first hand experience with that). In SCCA, 4 wheels off will get you a dirty car and that's about it.
If you have karting or similar experience, you may be quick sooner than most. A CF should hold reasonable value if you decide to sell and get a more modern car. But in FF, the spec radial tire is another learning curve! At Road Atlanta for the ARRC, 1:33-34 puts you at the pointy end of FF on spec radials (one guy at 1:31.5). With Vintage tires, 1:40 is pretty quick!
Garey Guzman
FF #4 (Former Cal Club member, current Atlanta Region member)
https://redroadracing.com/ (includes Zink and Citation Registry)
https://www.thekentlives.com/ (includes information on the FF Kent engine, chassis and history)
In VARA, 4-off requires you to report to tech. Part of it is self-penalization, part of it is that 50 year-old cars have a higher chance of breakage in a rough off than something newer.
Contact? In my experience, punishment varies based considerably on the circumstances, how contrite you are, the amount of damage to the other car and injuries. Everything from a short suspension to being 13/13'd to a lifetime ban.
In my 30 years of observing vintage racing, it has morphed from pre-1970 cars that are driven at 7/10s as "exhibition" into more recent cars that often get pushed real hard. (I watched a gorgeous E-Jag get wadded into a ball a couple of years ago.) A lot depends on the sanctioning body as to what is eligible and what's not (such as adhering to the Monoposto rules or their own home-brew). That also affects the on-track rules - some places are more strict, avoidable contact used to get you an automatic 13 month bye bye. Now a lot of the groups do a points system, kinda like "accident forgiveness" for a one-time cock-up, but if you make a habit of it you're going to stay home.
Most vintage groups are not big on technical inspection for legality - a lot of Vees are running bigger motors than 1200, Trans-Am cars with 383s and the like. Most have group committees that do self-policing, though: if your "FV" is keeping up with a Ralt FA and passing other Vees like they were running on 2 cylinders, you might get a talking to.
Generally, though, vintage is more low-key, social, and fun than running SCCA Nationals or even Regionals. Perfect for us old guys that don't want to bang wheels any more.
To investigate the many vintage organizations, their rules and their events. it's easiest to just visit www.The-VMC.com. Go to the Member Organizations page. Then follow links to the various organization's websites.
Something for everyone in vintage.
I was just asking about the potential of the cars rather than where I may or may not be capable of running just out of curiousity.
Anyways, thanks everyone for the information and advice! Lots of thinking to do. I just like the idea of racing an open wheeled car as most of my driving and knowledge is with production cars.
FV Vintage to SCCA club
Big difference is belt driven cooling fan and generator on Vintage (about a 4-hp draw) and treaded versus slick tires. Treads should last 5-6 weekends and slicks maybe 2-3 weekends. Vintage entries are slightly higher.
Ohh. When you say vintage entries are higher, are you referring to car count or fees?
Entry fees..usually a dinner Satyrday
at Vintage.
Your questions are difficult to answer, because racers generally have a preferred discipline, and tend not to understand the attraction to disciplines that they are not active in. A modern and vintage FF racer, or modern and vintage FV racer, have perceptions about each other that may be totally inaccurate. Myths and stereotypes abound. Some would rather be in a 40 car entry with a 20 seconds range in lap time. Some would rather be in a 4 car entry with 2 tenths separation. Some will stay up all night partying, then skip the next afternoon race to get an early start going home. Some will be up all night aligning their car. Some will not go on track if its raining for their race. Some will go out in a rainey practice session, when the weather forcast for the event is hot and sunny.
The biggest favor you can do yourself, is go to a bunch of races in different classes and disciplines, and talk to people. Everyone will give you their sales pitch, but you will find that you fit into particular groups better than others. You will drink their brand of kool-aid and go home knowing what and who you want to race!
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
Retirement Sale NOW, Everything must go!
"Problemchild" has provided the very best advice! Check out some events and mingle. The choice will become obvious.
Sometimes it's just an opportunity for a short stop-n-go so they can ensure your head is screwed on straight.
Yes, it does vary. I had contact 2x with VARA. Neither incident resulted in any suspension or penalties for either party. Both incidents did result in some minor body work damage. I think much of it has to do with attitude and how both parties present to the Chief Steward.
FunnyWhen speaking of large fields with huge disparity in performance I get the impression you are speaking of a VIntage FF race, but it's how I perceive the RunOffs.
^^^ exactly ^^^
Vintage event sessions are typically half those of an SCCA event. That right there reduces cost.
Jim Gustafson
Exactly as Brian said... In the case of Formula Vee in the Northeast/Mid-Atlantic, car counts are massively higher for modern FV. And if you run Challenge Cup over SCCA (or even vintage), the tire bills are much lower. And Frank mentions tire life... in Challenge Cup, the tires last 2-3 seasons. I won the championship on 2 season tires, and plan to use them again in 2020. We just don't wear out the Falkens.
Also as mentioned, Vintage FV is a ton slower than a modern FV due to the cooling fan robbing so much power. With that being said, the Vintage to Challenge Cup gap is slightly less than the Vintage to SCCA slick gap because of the larger Falken tires.
Another aspect you want to consider, is track time & value of your entry fee. Challenge Cup runs with FRP, and we get 2-2.5hrs of track time per weekend for $500, plus other giveaways. SCCA normally gives you half that track time for basically the same fee.
~Matt Clark| RTJ-02 FV #92 | My YouTube Onboard Videos (helmet cam)
Thankyou, but within minutes, but the thread was back putting other people down. It seems sad that the way we promote our own interests, is to poop on other people's interests. I accept that I fall into this trap occasionally myself, but do my best to minimize it. I wish that all the junior OW groups would realize we are all in this together. Cheers!
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
Retirement Sale NOW, Everything must go!
Really? I was merely speaking to the picture your scenarios painted in my head likely being different than the ones painted in yours. Were you complimenting those folks who pack it in early (could be talking about start and park RunOffs qualifiers, could be talking about fair-weather vintage racers). Or those who will wrench all night instead of party to prepare for tomorrow?
It's an awfully wide brush that both of us were painting with. I'm sure we could both point to multiple examples that enforce our own perspective.
I "liked" your post because your advice was spot-on. Even if your stereotypes were not more right/wrong than mine.
I was actually referring to a general tone, rather than your specific comments. I picked 3 topics, and offered opposing views, that would spark varied responses from different people. I was attempting to illustrate how we need to fit into a group of people, rather than choose from a spreadsheet of info about different classes from different organizers. When I hear others publicly disparaging other similar groups, I find it offputting, and recently sold a car because of that tone from a certain group.
But thank you for calling my views "right wing". I was once called "elitist" on Apexspeed for suggesting that cars at the Runoffs be black-flagged before being lapped. Clearly, as eloquently as I try to explain myself, I can be misunderstood. Perhaps I will try to be more liberal and open minded for 2020. Happy New Year everyone!
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
Retirement Sale NOW, Everything must go!
Since I offered the only opposing view minutes after your post, I assumed you were speaking to me.
Uhhh...you read that wrong. I said "right / wrong". For future reference, if I ever refer to you as right wing, it will be intended as a compliment.
Me, too.
Happy New Year to you as well!
Usually the vast majority of racers want to be on the track as much as possible. That's the first time I've seen less track time spun as a positive
I started going racing with Vintage guys when I was in college and found the people to be a lot of fun and the events enjoyable. I worked a bit harder with an SCCA guy running for the Championship in GT3 but still enjoyed myself. After getting my DB1, I made friends with other racers and the SCCA workers in Cal Club. Still lots of fun.
Last year, I finally got on the track with a Vintage FF and enjoyed my time, making more friends and enjoying every event. I think it's really a matter of what you want to bring to the event that determines what you get out of it. I hope that others I've met have enjoyed meeting me as much as I have enjoyed meeting them!
The bottom line, to answer the OP, the main difference is the perceived level of intensity and that running up front in SCCA will require more sets of tires and more precise prep. The treaded tires in Vintage have a wider range of "good" behavior for a range of setup. The other major difference is that Vintage may have a similar number of sessinos but less time per session, saving on wear and fuel.
Get a car, go racing, have fun!
Garey Guzman
FF #4 (Former Cal Club member, current Atlanta Region member)
https://redroadracing.com/ (includes Zink and Citation Registry)
https://www.thekentlives.com/ (includes information on the FF Kent engine, chassis and history)
IMHO Vintage racing can be as expensive as you want or it can be very affordable if you choose the right car, particularly a CFF. Vintage might have slightly higher entry fees in SOME cases. Vintage is very much concerned about the drivers and cars going home in one piece while having great fun. Most vintage racers are pretty serious about racing each other but do not do a lot of the stupid moves you see club racers doing.
The biggest downside to vintage or upside to club racing is that depending on where you live you probably will have to travel lots more to do a lot of vintage ( 5 or 6 a season) races than the same number of club races.
If I was starting over I probably would still go the club route mainly because I absolutely hate to travel. If it weren't for that vintage would be my choice.
I think I'm pretty lucky cause I have access to a lot of Formula Vee related things and the Vintage races in particular aren't in bad spots for me to visit. Maybe I'll show up to some paddocks next year to check it out.
Ryan,
Rather than just "show up", you should make some contacts ahead of time. Getting access to a track unannounced these days can be difficult. Some (maybe MOST?) Vintage groups generally allow walk ups to sign a waiver and get in at the gate. However, SCCA CLUB races are quite different. If you are an SCCA MEMBER, many will allow you to show your membership card and go in after signing the waiver at the gate .. Others will REQUIRE you to be there during limited registration hours to do the same.
If there is an event you think you might want to 'drop by' at, post a message here and ask if anyone has a crew spot available. Most drivers do NOT fill their available crew spots very often and would be happy to add you to their list.
Steve
Steve, FV80
Racing since '73 - FV since '77
You live in Beaver Creek? Umm there are at least 5 or 6 Vintage race events within 3 hours from you, up to 8 if you drive 4 hours. all at the same venues as SCCA. (PittRace x2 or 3, MidOhio x2, Watkins Glen x2, Indy, and the list goes on)
Robby
Follow this and you won't go wrong. Don't read the rest of the posts here. Usual rhetoric from the usual suspects.
By the way, don't watch any vintage racing events from Europe and think that's what it's like. Especially the Goodwood Revival. I mean, yeah, watch them because it's fun as hell (with the occasional cringe when something like a D-Jag hits the tire wall), but those guys are crazy and many would get insta-banned for some of those antics if they did them in the US. Although some of the big events like Monterey and the Mitty are getting pretty aggressive from what they were, the usual vintage club meets are pretty low-key.
Agree with this. I'd be much more inclined to race vintage if we vintage-raced like that here.
Case in point, the 18 year-old kid who utterly thrashed a Cobra in I think 2018 — meaning, drove it as Carroll intended. I loved it. Race cars were only built for one purpose, and to me anyway, that's the correct one.
not that cllose
Robbie,
If only I drove as fast on the road as you.
Mid Ohio and Indy are about 3 hours. Pitt is a good 6. The only time I have been to the Glen it took almost 10.
With my vacation challenged work career, those over 3-4 hours are very very tough.
If only ,,,,,,
In many cases vintage is "been there done that" drivers that raced at the highest level and just want to have fun like john Morton, Davy Jones ,Steve Ohara, Dave Dwoskin ,Case Montgomery, Tommy Ave, all at the top of their game at a point in time.
Well the speed limit in Ohio is 70 and most go close to 80!
You are East of Dayton? I drove from Canton to Dayton in 3 hours and Pitt is just an hour East of Canton...just saying
I must have driven fast because when I drove to PRI in Indy it was less than 2 hours from Dayton...
But I feel for you...I am often driving into the night to and from events.
Robby
With my rig, the speed is closer to 55-60
Two things no one has mentioned.....1. In my opinion some vintage cars, in a crash, could be less safe than something newer because of their chassis design be it front or sides...2. SCCA insurance on you while on track versus other organizations....some will have none on you, whatever you've got on your own already is all you would have
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