FA Parity

[B Farnham]

The class missed the boat when the FC aero and chassis rules were changed. As PF alluded to you cannot just take an FC and swap out the engine and be competitive in F1000.

Had they kept all the rules besides the engine and transmission being changed then I imagine FC would be on the chopping block not FB.

Those in power treated the class as a development class with the flavor of the month engine, aero and air/electronic shifters. Most of those things aren't a huge advantage but if they're perceived to be then people will opt out of a class.

Those with money will always chase the unfair advantage, the leaders of the class never put an end to that.

[jose gerardo]

Ultimately Frog’s correct. Participation has decreased, but which came first the chicken or the egg? While participation numbers were down, FB wasn’t dying. I can name 10 owners on the east coast who stopped showing up. Their main reasons were more personal, financial, or health related. I prefer to believe the class has ebbs and flows. Those 10 owners will eventually bring them out again or get tired of looking at them. These cars are too expensive to be garage art. Maybe the current or eventual owners will breathe new life into them.

At least one new car is being built as we speak.
Participation is growing again, albeit slowly and not in Club racing.
Cars are making their way East.
There is no more politicking or bureaucracy.
The rules are stable.
The track time is abundant and of high quality.
No more alphabet soup.
FRP listens to our input and makes us feel welcome.
And if drivers want to compete exclusively against other F1000s, it’s the only gig in town.

I guess Tim is mostly right ( Except that if you are not racing a JDR then there is politicking and bureaucracy ), that's why I am selling my 2014 F1000 JDR for whatever I can get for it and not Racing in this series anymore.

[Thomas Copeland]

I guess Tim is mostly right ( Except that if you are not racing a JDR then there is politicking and bureaucracy ), that's why I am selling my 2014 F1000 JDR for whatever I can get for it and not Racing in this series anymore.

Jose, when you, Zane Gibbs, Jerry Hodges and I started the NorthAmF1000 it had such good promise. A driver owned and driver managed series. It was something to really get excited about. In the the beginning it actually started out that way too. That first year was beautiful. I guess we never expected Jerry to violate the trust we put in him to get the LLC for the series and then going behind our backs and using that to steal the series for himself.

I know most of the other drivers don't care about the history of the series, they just want to race and I can't blame them. I've had enough of politics too. I guess I no longer care who owes what anymore. It bothered the hell out of me all this year and that's why I stayed away and didn't race in 2019. But now I just want to get back in the car and race too. Somewhere, someplace, wherever. All this fighting is just wearing me down. I think I'm just going to get in the car and drive. Hope to see you on the track sometime. Be great if we can get together and race someplace. No politics, just fun.

[jose gerardo]

Jose, when you, Zane Gibbs, Jerry Hodges and I started the NorthAmF1000 it had such good promise. A driver owned and driver managed series. It was something to really get excited about. In the the beginning it actually started out that way too. That first year was beautiful. I guess we never expected Jerry to violate the trust we put in him to get the LLC for the series and then going behind our backs and using that to steal the series for himself.

I know most of the other drivers don't care about the history of the series, they just want to race and I can't blame them. I've had enough of politics too. I guess I no longer care who owes what anymore. It bothered the hell out of me all this year and that's why I stayed away and didn't race in 2019. But now I just want to get back in the car and race too. Somewhere, someplace, wherever. All this fighting is just wearing me down. I think I'm just going to get in the car and drive. Hope to see you on the track sometime. Be great if we can get together and race someplace. No politics, just fun.

I should be ready for the February Major at Cota, I will try to test before that at Arroyo Seco in NM.

[John Nesbitt]

... I think I'm just going to get in the car and drive. Hope to see you on the track sometime. Be great if we can get together and race someplace. No politics, just fun.

That is a strategy that we can all agree upon.

[Steve Demeter]

I do not have a dog in this directly (I have a FC), but it seems that FB started with a whole ton of promise and seemed to prosper for several years. But somewhere the powers that be managed to screw it up by taking what should have been a relatively inexpensive class with great sounding engines that were very available and allowed rules creep to make it stupid expensive to be competitive.

Am I close to what actually happened?

I truly feel sorry that those that invested in FB are now essentially left in the cold.

[jose gerardo]

I do not have a dog in this directly (I have a FC), but it seems that FB started with a whole ton of promise and seemed to prosper for several years. But somewhere the powers that be managed to screw it up by taking what should have been a relatively inexpensive class with great sounding engines that were very available and allowed rules creep to make it stupid expensive to be competitive.

Am I close to what actually happened?

I truly feel sorry that those that invested in FB are now essentially left in the cold.

you are spot on Steve, politics and greed don’t mix well with race fuel, and the class managed doing it twice !!

[Purple Frog]

OH how i remember that Road Atlanta race in 2008 (?) (ARRC?).
Red Piper with Suzuki.
Novak VD conversions with Suzukis.
Wald had a new Sthor (sp?) in McClaren orange.
Fairly good field.
High hopes then for the future....

[jose gerardo]

OH how i remember that Road Atlanta race in 2008 (?) (ARRC?).
Red Piper with Suzuki.
Novak VD conversions with Suzukis.
Wald had a new Sthor (sp?) in McClaren orange.
Fairly good field.
High hopes then for the future....

yes amigo Mike, pritchard in the red piper leading a stohr driven by cole morgan, 2007 it was My Friend Hector and I were watching the race from corner no. 10 and could not believe how hard they were braking and the sound reverberating from the straightaway concrete walls coming down the hill, it was then and there that we both decided what was coming next down the pit lane for us, and today 12 years later and 4 f1000 cars later, this is ( was) a great class back then.
it can still be a successful class but it would have to be organized in an independent manner and away from people who are trying to benefit from it ( read thomas copeland comments ) for reference.

[Purple Frog]

My ah-ha moment in FB was watching Brandon Dixon a few years later going through T1 at Road Atlanta flat in his Citation. Something like a 1:20 or 1:21 lap. OMG! It was so awesome. I think FCs at the time were dreaming of a 1:26.

Lathrop had already told (warned) us the potential. But, standing there watching Brandon was eye-opening.

[jose gerardo]

My ah-ha moment in FB was watching Brandon Dixon a few years later going through T1 at Road Atlanta flat in his Citation. Something like a 1:20 or 1:21 lap. OMG! It was so awesome. I think FCs at the time were dreaming of a 1:26.

Lathrop had already told (warned) us the potential. But, standing there watching Brandon was eye-opening.

2013 sprints ,If memory serves me, We went to meet him that time and see him get into the car with that big pair of Huevos !!

[reidhazelton]

I do not have a dog in this directly (I have a FC), but it seems that FB started with a whole ton of promise and seemed to prosper for several years. But somewhere the powers that be managed to screw it up by taking what should have been a relatively inexpensive class with great sounding engines that were very available and allowed rules creep to make it stupid expensive to be competitive.

Am I close to what actually happened?

I truly feel sorry that those that invested in FB are now essentially left in the cold.

Entirely accurate from what I remember, but left out a few parts. SCCA did want to reign the cars in (restrictors), and deal with shifters but there were enough participants that made enough noise to push off anything that was suggested. With shifters, it was a 'the genie is out of the bottle' scenario and SCCA never makes the hard choice to right a wrong and put the genie back in. I'm not saying the way shifters went was wrong, that was before my involvement, just the scenario that happened. Backdating and mixing throttle bodies and engines was another genie SCCA, I think, did nothing about.

The merger with FA was just a complete disaster from the jump.

Frog's account is very accurate. The OG's of the class moved out and it lost its way.

[Jnovak]

It could have been so good! We saw what was happening and had to sell.
Still love the original concept of a 1000cc bike engine in an FC chassis!.

Back the rules up please! There must be 75 cars that are NOT RACING now becauuse of cost escalation!

[924RACR]

OH how i remember that Road Atlanta race in 2008 (?) (ARRC?).
Red Piper with Suzuki.
Novak VD conversions with Suzukis.
Wald had a new Sthor (sp?) in McClaren orange.
Fairly good field.
High hopes then for the future....

I remember that too... I was there with my ITB car, and when I for some unknown reason (probably all the good noises I was hearing) wandered over to the front straight to watch the race start, I was blown away. After years of watching things with wings struggle around Waterford and other smaller tracks, seeing that herd blast through Turn 1 and up the hill en masse, formula cars finally made sense to me.

A month later, I was picking up my FF roller to start my DSR build...

[jchracer]

Entirely accurate from what I remember, but left out a few parts. SCCA did want to reign the cars in (restrictors), and deal with shifters but there were enough participants that made enough noise to push off anything that was suggested. With shifters, it was a 'the genie is out of the bottle' scenario and SCCA never makes the hard choice to right a wrong and put the genie back in. I'm not saying the way shifters went was wrong, that was before my involvement, just the scenario that happened. Backdating and mixing throttle bodies and engines was another genie SCCA, I think, did nothing about.

The merger with FA was just a complete disaster from the jump.

Frog's account is very accurate. The OG's of the class moved out and it lost its way.

Alright, I'll finally bite…..after slogging through this waste deep BS. I own one of these cars and have modified it, raced it and other cars.

The facts:

1. You do not need the engine of the month to be competitive (you can still win with the “old” Suzuki engine).
2. You do not need a wiz-bang shifter to be competitive (you can still win with a manual shifter).
3. The stock engines are very reliable if you keep oil in them and don’t abusively over-rev them.
4. If prepared properly, the cars are not significantly more expensive to run than an FF or FC.
5. If you lack driving skill, you will get crushed. You can then manufacture excuses and blame your lack of results on 1 through 4 above.

The whiners spreading mis-information have been one of the big reasons for the death of FB.

OK, the sewing circle may now return to it’s previous programing……

[Mike B]

The facts:

1. You do not need the engine of the month to be competitive (you can still win with the “old” Suzuki engine).
2. You do not need a wiz-bang shifter to be competitive (you can still win with a manual shifter).
3. The stock engines are very reliable if you keep oil in them and don’t abusively over-rev them.
4. If prepared properly, the cars are not significantly more expensive to run than an FF or FC.
5. If you lack driving skill, you will get crushed. You can then manufacture excuses and blame your lack of results on 1 through 4 above.

The whiners spreading mis-information have been one of the big reasons for the death of FB.

All of the above cannot be stated enough or more emphatically. Throughout its life, the rules in FB were more stable than almost any other class. It was the online threat of rules changes that hurt the perception.

[jose gerardo]

All of the above cannot be stated enough or more emphatically. Throughout its life, the rules in FB were more stable than almost any other class. It was the online threat of rules changes that hurt the perception.

If anyone is interested in hitting the Reset button on FB, I am game, Let's go race guys

[Jnovak]

I do not have a dog in this directly (I have a FC), but it seems that FB started with a whole ton of promise and seemed to prosper for several years. But somewhere the powers that be managed to screw it up by taking what should have been a relatively inexpensive class with great sounding engines that were very available and allowed rules creep to make it stupid expensive to be competitive.

Am I close to what actually happened?

I truly feel sorry that those that invested in FB are now essentially left in the cold.

Yes, exactly!

[Thomas Copeland]

Alright, I'll finally bite…..after slogging through this waste deep BS. I own one of these cars and have modified it, raced it and other cars.

The facts:

1. You do not need the engine of the month to be competitive (you can still win with the “old” Suzuki engine).
2. You do not need a wiz-bang shifter to be competitive (you can still win with a manual shifter).
3. The stock engines are very reliable if you keep oil in them and don’t abusively over-rev them.
4. If prepared properly, the cars are not significantly more expensive to run than an FF or FC.
5. If you lack driving skill, you will get crushed. You can then manufacture excuses and blame your lack of results on 1 through 4 above.

The whiners spreading mis-information have been one of the big reasons for the death of FB.

OK, the sewing circle may now return to it’s previous programing……

This is 100% accurate.

I don't know why we have to keep beating down these "it's too expensive " rumors and the other misinformation about this class. And the class hasn't "lost its way". It's the SCCA that's lost and it's been lost for a long damn time. It's so damn lost it doesn't know what the class is about anymore and is now turning it into something it was never suppose to be.

I've spent less money getting into F1000 than I ever did getting into Formula Ford, Formula 2000, Formula 3, or Formula Madza. Even if I went completely "JR" in this class and built the most souped up car I could and then went completely orbital on the prep I'll probably still would have spent less (most of the guys on the pointy end aren't spending JR money anyway).

This class is the best bang for the buck hands down. It's also a hell of a lot more fun to drive. By about 5x. (and this includes FA, FE, and all the boring closed wheel racing cars that I've also driven). That's why I'm here and not in one of those other classes I used to drive in previously and I'm not one single bit sorry or sad I'm in F1000. The only thing that saddens me is the constant battle we have to wage with these arrogant idiots that keep jerking us around.

[jchracer]

Yes, exactly!

This right here is a prime example of the mis-information that contributed to the demise of the class...….

[Jnovak]

This right here is a prime example of the mis-information that contributed to the demise of the class...….

Joel i am curious about why you changed from the Suzuki to the Kawasaki?

[reidhazelton]

Alright, I'll finally bite…..after slogging through this waste deep BS. I own one of these cars and have modified it, raced it and other cars.

The facts:

1. You do not need the engine of the month to be competitive (you can still win with the “old” Suzuki engine).
2. You do not need a wiz-bang shifter to be competitive (you can still win with a manual shifter).
3. The stock engines are very reliable if you keep oil in them and don’t abusively over-rev them.
4. If prepared properly, the cars are not significantly more expensive to run than an FF or FC.
5. If you lack driving skill, you will get crushed. You can then manufacture excuses and blame your lack of results on 1 through 4 above.

The whiners spreading mis-information have been one of the big reasons for the death of FB.

OK, the sewing circle may now return to it’s previous programing……

So, all things equal if someone has 15 more hp, that doesn't matter? Hypo - HotShoe1 shows up with a Suzuki. HotShoe1 beats Mr.MidPack with a Kawi. You don't need a Kawi/BMW to win. Now, HotShoe2 shows up with a Kawi and beats HotShoe1. Do you still not need a Kawi to win? That is not how rules are supposed to be written. The single variable should be considered on it's own - not dependently on driver skill or other factors. Now, I know you are not saying this, but just because someone somewhere can win when they are at a HP disadvantage does not mean the hp does not matter. Yes, Brandon Dixon beat Kawi's with his Suzuki. Would he have went faster or won by more if he had 15 more hp? What if Brandon Dixon's doppelganger shows up with the exact Citation but with a Kawi or BMW? Who wins? Brandon or doppelganger Brandon?

I agree with your other points. While you may not NEED a shifter system, the perception was that you did. Right or wrong, if it is perceived that you need Part X to win, that will have a negative affect on those who cannot afford it. The perception is the problem. I know it sounds a bit absurd, but that's how it goes. If the racers think they need something, or they lost because of reason X, that is what they are basing their future decisions on. Sometimes, that decision is to not race.

Backdating the rules and going back to Year 1 in the life of FB would be a great idea. Put all the genies back in the bottle.

[jose gerardo]

So, all things equal if someone has 15 more hp, that doesn't matter? Hypo - HotShoe1 shows up with a Suzuki. HotShoe1 beats Mr.MidPack with a Kawi. You don't need a Kawi/BMW to win. Now, HotShoe2 shows up with a Kawi and beats HotShoe1. Do you still not need a Kawi to win? That is not how rules are supposed to be written. The single variable should be considered on it's own - not dependently on driver skill or other factors. Now, I know you are not saying this, but just because someone somewhere can win when they are at a HP disadvantage does not mean the hp does not matter. Yes, Brandon Dixon beat Kawi's with his Suzuki. Would he have went faster or won by more if he had 15 more hp? What if Brandon Dixon's doppelganger shows up with the exact Citation but with a Kawi or BMW? Who wins? Brandon or doppelganger Brandon?

I agree with your other points. While you may not NEED a shifter system, the perception was that you did. Right or wrong, if it is perceived that you need Part X to win, that will have a negative affect on those who cannot afford it. The perception is the problem. I know it sounds a bit absurd, but that's how it goes. If the racers think they need something, or they lost because of reason X, that is what they are basing their future decisions on. Sometimes, that decision is to not race.

Backdating the rules and going back to Year 1 in the life of FB would be a great idea. Put all the genies back in the bottle.

agreed, alex and I ran 07-08 gixers and managed to beat or lap folks with kawis or even ‘17 gixer motors, a guy who is 4-7 seconds a lap slower can bolt on 400 hp onto the car and still will not win !. the key based of what I saw these last three years of running naf1000 series has to be on equalizing power output via a restrictor or rev limiter, raise min weight to the average for the class ( say around 1050-1080 ), a spec tire ( some of us were overspending guys who could only afford one set per weekend), it can be fixed very easily guys and anyone can afford the fix, all we need is a unified effort and the support of the drivers/car owners to do it.

[Daryl DeArman]

. . . equalizing power output via a restrictor or rev limiter, raise min weight to the average for the class ( say around 1050-1080 ), a spec tire ( some of us were overspending guys who could only afford one set per weekend), it can be fixed very easily guys and anyone can afford the fix, all we need is a unified effort and the support of the drivers/car owners to do it.

I'd propose that in addition to an increase in minimum weight and some tire rule (spec tire or limit on amount utilized per event) I'd think it would be prudent for those in the class to look at freezing the eligible engines to model year 2019 or older until 2024 season. In 2024 freeze the eligible engines to 2024 until the 2029 season, etc. It's possibly another opportunity to get it right without disenfranchising any current owners and forego all the BS politicking and bickering that comes with restrictors and other forms of competition adjustments. The shifting aids should likely go back in the proverbial bottle as well.


The engine freeze does not stop engine development or HP creep. What it does do is prevent the engine of the week/month/year. It also allows all the competitors to know that they can race with their current package for several years and concentrate their efforts/funds elsewhere.

Don't let the fear of the "no more engines left" argument carry much weight. There were at least 200 BMW S1000RR sold for every F1000 out there. Imagine how many ZX10, R1's and GSXR1000's are likely.

That said, I have zero horses in this race. However, I do tend to learn from previous mistakes and experiences so thought I would pipe up with my $.02.---again

[John Nesbitt]

What do these seven gentlemen have in common: Dave Caswell, Thomas Copeland, Jeremy Hill, Mark Nixon, Jay Novak , David O'Leary , Greg Pizzo?

Give up? They were the only members to provide input to the CRB on Stan's FA/FB merger proposal. It was published a whole year ago, so nobody can claim lack of time.

Folks have time, and energy, and keystrokes enough to take over this thread with 140+ posts and almost 6000 (so far) views. But not enough to type three sentences into an online form that actually informs the rules-making process.

[Daryl DeArman]

Folks have time, and energy, and keystrokes enough to take over this thread with 140+ posts and almost 6000 (so far) views. But not enough to type three sentences into an online form that actually informs the rules-making process.

Why should any of us that have contributed to the 140+ posts and 6000-ish views affect the rules-making process in any official capacity if we don't have any skin in the game? Those letters/3 sentences, IMO, should be reserved for those active in the class who will suffer/benefit from the outcome.

Here on this forum we're mostly just spit-ballin'.

[Steve Bamford]

What do these seven gentlemen have in common: Dave Caswell, Thomas Copeland, Jeremy Hill, Mark Nixon, Jay Novak , David O'Leary , Greg Pizzo?

Give up? They were the only members to provide input to the CRB on Stan's FA/FB merger proposal. It was published a whole year ago, so nobody can claim lack of time.

Folks have time, and energy, and keystrokes enough to take over this thread with 140+ posts and almost 6000 (so far) views. But not enough to type three sentences into an online form that actually informs the rules-making process.

This goes back to the letter writing process being antiquated.

Why wouldn’t “The Powers that be”, whomever they are, speak with ALL the actual racers in the class & ONLY the racers in the class for the past 3-5 seasons? I don’t understand how anyone who pays their yearly dues has a say in the class. Also forget the manufactures as they always want to change/adjust/improve something that typically doesn’t need fixing.

Most of the people who are really disturbed in all these posts are FB racers or former FB car racers. Most others, including myself, are just adding useless comments or justifying why things are the way they are. SCCA leadership blames the participants without accepting any responsibility for mismanagement of the rule book. The response we were worried about being sued is not an excuse IMO.

[Mike B]

Backdating the rules and going back to Year 1 in the life of FB would be a great idea. Put all the genies back in the bottle.

How would the class be different than it was at the beginning of this year?

[Zcurves]

What do these seven gentlemen have in common: Dave Caswell, Thomas Copeland, Jeremy Hill, Mark Nixon, Jay Novak , David O'Leary , Greg Pizzo?

Give up? They were the only members to provide input to the CRB on Stan's FA/FB merger proposal. It was published a whole year ago, so nobody can claim lack of time.

John,

So you’re saying my letter, Jerry Hodges, and other affected drivers/owners in NorthAmF1000 were never received? I can tell you for a fact that I and others submitted. Hell, we even called as many BoD members as would speak with us.

[John Nesbitt]

John,

So you’re saying my letter, Jerry Hodges, and other affected drivers/owners in NorthAmF1000 were never received? I can tell you for a fact that I and others submitted. Hell, we even called as many BoD members as would speak with us.

My list came from the latest Fastrack, in which the CRB published its final recommendation about the merger. My comment was directed at those complain here, but did not respond to the original proposal published in January. I have nothing but respect for anyone who engaged with the process.

[jose gerardo]

A

I'd propose that in addition to an increase in minimum weight and some tire rule (spec tire or limit on amount utilized per event) I'd think it would be prudent for those in the class to look at freezing the eligible engines to model year 2019 or older until 2024 season. In 2024 freeze the eligible engines to 2024 until the 2029 season, etc. It's possibly another opportunity to get it right without disenfranchising any current owners and forego all the BS politicking and bickering that comes with restrictors and other forms of competition adjustments. The shifting aids should likely go back in the proverbial bottle as well.


The engine freeze does not stop engine development or HP creep. What it does do is prevent the engine of the week/month/year. It also allows all the competitors to know that they can race with their current package for several years and concentrate their efforts/funds elsewhere.

Don't let the fear of the "no more engines left" argument carry much weight. There were at least 200 BMW S1000RR sold for every F1000 out there. Imagine how many ZX10, R1's and GSXR1000's are likely.

daryl, very good comments, the main issue with engines is that since scca or stewards don’t have a way of verifying if engines are stock or built then people tended to “experiment” with little chance of getting caught, a very well known engine builder i know well mentioned that he decided to stop building engines for a certain team because he was being asked to perform modifications that were illegal, when i asked him what would help level the field he said rev limiters as these are cheap and most engines develop very similar hp numbers at equal rpm’s.

That said, I have zero horses in this race. However, I do tend to learn from previous mistakes and experiences so thought I would pipe up with my $.02.---again

[Stan Clayton]

daryl, very good comments, the main issue with engines is that since scca or stewards don’t have a way of verifying if engines are stock or built then people tended to “experiment” with little chance of getting caught, a very well known engine builder i know well mentioned that he decided to stop building engines for a certain team because he was being asked to perform modifications that were illegal, when i asked him what would help level the field he said rev limiters as these are cheap and most engines develop very similar hp numbers at equal rpm’s.

With very few exceptions SCCA does not aggressively police engines. They primarily rely on competitors, engine builders, and teams voluntarily complying to the rules, and for competitors to protest the engines of competitors who they suspect of cheating. It's been that way for decades. As you know from your conversation with the "very well known engine builder" they have reputations to protect as well, and their business is literally at stake if they knowingly build cheater engines.

As to rev limiters being the answer to leveling the playing field, an inlet restrictor is just as effective, easier to implement across a variety of engines, and very affordable. Of course, the time to have done that was years ago when the CRB tried for what, two years, only to back down in the face to relentless opposition from some FB competitors. Same thing with shifters.

[jose gerardo]

With very few exceptions SCCA does not aggressively police engines. They primarily rely on competitors, engine builders, and teams voluntarily complying to the rules, and for competitors to protest the engines of competitors who they suspect of cheating. It's been that way for decades. As you know from your conversation with the "very well known engine builder" they have reputations to protect as well, and their business is literally at stake if they knowingly build cheater engines.

As to rev limiters being the answer to leveling the playing field, an inlet restrictor is just as effective, easier to implement across a variety of engines, and very affordable. Of course, the time to have done that was years ago when the CRB tried for what, two years, only to back down in the face to relentless opposition from some FB competitors. Same thing with shifters.

agree stan, we spoke a few times about protests but some people did not want bad blood between a small community of drivers, how ironic, we ended up bleeding to death !.

how is the crowd down under doing so well ?, I sold my stohr through adam proctor and it seems that the only reason they don’t import more is the exchange rate.

[jose gerardo]

My list came from the latest Fastrack, in which the CRB published its final recommendation about the merger. My comment was directed at those complain here, but did not respond to the original proposal published in January. I have nothing but respect for anyone who engaged with the process.

john, quite a few of us responded and are very surprised as to the mention that they only got a half dozen responses as it was jerry and i calling people to insure we voiced our concerns.

[Daryl DeArman]

As to rev limiters being the answer to leveling the playing field, an inlet restrictor is just as effective, easier to implement across a variety of engines, and very affordable.

NASCAR restrictor plate engines were a lot more expensive than their unrestricted engines, and not because the cost of a $5 piece of aluminum. Lacking an effective process of policing/enforcing rules you end up with engines modified to effectively circumvent the restrictors' intent.

Rev limiters are also easy to bypass and difficult to enforce.

What either/both of them do is make it exponentially more expensive to go marginally faster. While some may argue this removes most of the incentive from the have$, what it does in practice is make it much more expensive to be competitive. Spec Miata is a perfect example. How much to run up front, how much to be grid fodder?

[RussMcB]

The good thing about restrictors or rev limiters is, people can spend tons of money on their "stock" engines but they wont get more that a handful of HP for how ever many thousands of dollars they spend. I mean, go ahead and let them try. I think it was "established" earlier in this thread, a few HP (like, up to 15) won't help anyone win races.

The class shot itself in the foot when it didn't even try maintain a certain level of HP.

[problemchild]

That is not how rules are supposed to be written.

This post sums up this thread and the whole history of the class.

Racers in the class being told by outsiders, with no skin in the game, why their class has issues, and why they need SCCA to fix it for them. The outsiders, in the name of SCCA, having now all but killed the class, are more interested in defending and justifying their motives and actions, than helping the racers save their class.

[reidhazelton]

This post sums up this thread and the whole history of the class.

Racers in the class being told by outsiders, with no skin in the game, why their class has issues, and why they need SCCA to fix it for them. The outsiders, in the name of SCCA, having now all but killed the class, are more interested in defending and justifying their motives and actions, than helping the racers save their class.

So you are in favor of using horsepower to balance chassis, drivers, and other variables? The FA engine table must be your jam then.

Additionally, I was a strong vote against the FA/FB merger and argued against it at length. Nice try.

[problemchild]

Nice try.

My ego is not driving my thoughts on this topic. My only concern is that a group of fellow racers are getting shafted by people that do not understand the class and insist on fighting battles despite their lack of understanding. Real people are having their racing effected and outsiders are more concerned about defending their motives for past actions and telling off other outsiders. It is typical of the SCCA process which is in desperate need of reform.

[reidhazelton]

My ego is not driving my thoughts on this topic. My only concern is that a group of fellow racers are getting shafted by people that do not understand the class and insist on fighting battles despite their lack of understanding. Real people are having their racing effected and outsiders are more concerned about defending their motives for past actions and telling off other outsiders. It is typical of the SCCA process which is in desperate need of reform.

So if you have all the answers, step up and get involved rather than throw stones from the peanut gallery. Yeah, I know - you're "too busy." Yet, plenty of time to fingerblast out 4,000+ post on apexspeed. Numerous other people are just as busy as you are and yet make time to get involved and try to make it better. One successful and reputable prep shop owner even did a stint on the BoD for five years or so. That is a big time commitment, and personal expense. None of which is covered by SCCA.

I'm not justifying anything. I'm giving background and explanation from first hand experience during my time on the FSRAC to give people a transparent understanding of what occurred. Mostly so people know how things happen so people can work within the SCCA system for positive change. Seems a better approach than just screaming how stupid and inept everyone is, baseless conspiracy theories, and claiming everyone involved is engaged in a giant illegal fraud of self enrichment every time something happens that I don't like. But hey, that's just me. Some people like broccoli, some don't. Whatever.

Go look at the members of the FSRAC, CRB, and BoD. Several are FB racers, mfg's, suppliers, and stakeholders.

Lastly, it's getting really old to hear how there is a huge lack of transparency (to which I agree), but then the same people who scream conspiracy are the ones who **** all over anyone who tries to offer an explanation or transparency. That's a pretty solid way to assure there is even less transparency and that scenario was the overwhelming rationale to reject my letter asking for public explanation on rules changes.

I do agree with you the system is in need of reform. I heavily advocated for such and was shown the door. As Dr. Seuss said, "UNLESS someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It's not." So, how much do people care? Enough to just internet troll, or enough to get involved and try to affect positive change?