Some vintage clubs in SoCal are now allowing later model FFs up to 1983. Was there a dominate car at that time? What were the top cars from that period? And what were the pluses and minuses of the various makes?
Thanks for your insights,
Bud
[size="1"][ 02-24-2003, 08:55 AM: Message edited by: Bud Byrnes ][/size]
Lola 640.
Zink Z16 - the only car of that era that was banned from Club Ford in most areas. It kept winning after the DB1 was out for a few years. About 65 of them made, I think.
First off 1983 was a great year to be racing Formula Fords. The Nationals were filled with different makes and designs. The class would never be the same after the Runoffs and the Swift. Here is a ranking from that year
1. REYNARD RF-83 Anyone that raced that year will tell you bar none that this was the easiest car for mere mortals to go fast in. Jackson Younge not included in the of this earth category if you ever seen him drive under the bridge at Raod Atlanta.
2. LOLA T-642 Very fast car no doubt. Rick Gonzales tore up the CENDIV that year
3. ZINK Z-16 Fastest car in 1983 if your DAVE W.
Brian
Ex '96 Van Diemen Owner
None of these cars was a huge leap forward in performance. In Southern California the Crossle 30/40 series cars were still running up front, and the 83 Van Diemen was a nice car to have. As a matter of fact at the first Riverside Nationals, the year after the Swift won the Run-Off's, a Crossle 30 series car was on the pole. Some guy named R.K. Smith driving it. In the race the Swifts drafted by, but he was still up front.
I know I'm partial but Loynings Viking should be high on the list. Won the 82 runoffs was leading in 83 and was forgotten by the DB-1. All mentioned cars are good cause once ya know it's the wing nut in the seat that makes them fast.
Because pre-83 Crossles are extensively raced in the Spec Ford and Club Ford classes there is a ton of setup data and PARTS and they go real good. Ask Neil Porter.
The 83 Reynard was a really good car and Jackson Yonge was evem more amazing.The Lola 640 was a good car also.Bob Lobenberg was also amazing.I believe that was the car that was winning the Runoffs in front of the Swift.The Swift should never have won that race.But that's racing.
Ok let's look at the question from a different direction. VARA has added a new classification for cars built between 1973 to 1983 called Club Ford. The best situation would be for all the elegible cars to be of similar technology so that there would not be any cars in the grouping that would result in a situation where in order to be a front runner there are only one or two cars that have a chance. If there were specific cars that would be dominant they could be excluded or perhaps the top age reduced to 1980 or so. What do you guys think?
Murray, I think it's really more about preparation and driver skill. I don't think there is a huge difference in preformance potential of the cars, except the Swift. Which car is faster is also a function of which track you are racing at, short and tight or long and fast.
Thanks Roland. That sounds like what we need to know. Are there any DB-1s that could fall under the 1983 cutoff, or similar prototypes that should we should be worried about? As you point out, small differences in cars will be lost in driver or preparation/set-up differences in the Vintage race groups. We really only worry about big technical edges like the Swift.
Actualy Murray, I was more interested in that time period of racing that I'm truly unfamiliar with. In the early 80's I was making my living with a guitar and pretty much ignored racing.
But I must say that I agree with Roland's observation; car prep and driver prep/skill are far more important than which car you are competing in. At the Vintage level just look at Bob Hatle's Macon.
The Anatomy and Design of the Formula Ford and Sportcar's review of FFs in the eighties describe the Macon as one of the worst of the early Formula Fords but you and I are seriously eating his dust. In fact he is usually so far gone we don't even see his dust.
Lets not get carried away with more rules tinkering. The goal in VARA has always been to have a simple rule book and not become the SCCA. From the comments posted so far there does not seem to have been a dominant car but rather dominant drivers that prepared their cars well.
[size="1"][ 02-24-2003, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: Bud Byrnes ][/size]
I agree to a point. January 19th there was a SCCA double national at PIR and the fastest DB-1 posted a 1:02.9 which was a full 5 seconds faster than our fastest Vintage Ford and something like 7 seconds faster than our fastest Club Ford. Is that all driver? Shoot, I don't know. That is why I think the question needs to be asked. It kind of makes a mess of the class if there are a couple of late model cars that run a way with everything and make the other eight or nine model year cars obsolete, and uncompetitive.
Good point Murray, but last year (or the year before) the first of those Nationals was won by a Corssle 30 series car. It was driven better than the rest of the field of Swifts. Those lap times were all done on stickey tires. This year at VARA PIR Chuck in his Titan was several seconds quicker than the fastest Club Ford. The hard tires help close up the field also. You don't have to buy a couple of sets a weekend to run up front.
Interesting discussion. The prototype Swift DB-1 was built in 1983 and won the Runoffs with the talented R.K. Smith driving and this very same car proved very effective in the hands of the late Bruce May (a true FF hero) who won several more SCCA National Championships behind its charmed steering wheel.As for the effectiveness of newer, all-inbaord cars... I think they should be quicker although I do remember the aforementioned R.K.Smith in a Paul White prepped Crossle 32F making them all look silly on his way to qualifying for the 1983 Runoffs. BTW, if I were king I would make the Vintage Mod Ford cut off consistent with the Club Ford Rules: 1981 or older "second generation" designs with at least one one end having shocks outboard. Don't get me wrong, I think the "third generation" all-inboard cars are cool but they are an different breed of animal. They should have their own vintage class in a few years (in 2007?) along with F2000. Oh, one more thing. I think vintage racing should be about preserving and celebrating the past --not a low pressure alternative to modern club racing. I know there is a need for entries but c'mon! My take is: no modern gizmos: shocks, digital dashes, 1990s bodies w/ massive tail extensions, etc. Regardless of where you race... a well driven car is still the best answer. That is what I love about FF. Too bad most of the well driven cars I have seen belong to someone else!
I tend to follow this line of thinking of 1981 as a cut off also. Not that I don't agree that the later cars may be mid pack still in the hands of moderate drivers, but for these reasons;
First the market- the current market for pre '81 cars is soft. The vintage club can help that market by keeping this cut off. Sure it may bolster the cost of some of our 197? XYX, but it also may bring a few folks out of the garage who don't run much due to their regions not having decent fields to run with.
Next, cost. The current market also keeps the DB1 at a pretty steady state, but we all know it costs more to buy parts for this car, it requires additional maintenance or at least a 'good eye' to keep them up, and when compared to other earlier cars it's simply a more costly machine. Now I full well know that the vintage crowd is not short on cash, but why not still apply the kiss line of thinking here.
Size. Size? Yup, let's think safety and fit for a minute. Many of the vintage owners are not really up for a safe and fun weekend when they can't get into the car without some measure of tuck and roll. This covers a lot of the cars of the early '80s which started to see a narrower design. Now consider the guy who had just had good bang up somewhere, somehow (because of a broken hub he didn't know about?) and he is struggling to get free of the car. He's in his late 50s, overwieght, bp up, heart rate racing and paniced. Doesn't sound healthy to me.
Domminance. The fact that the cars of manutacture later than 81 are a bit more competitive means there may be a bit more push to have that car. Same as now perhaps, but why add to this if it can be haed off? Let's see....I can have any car up to '83 and a Swift makes the cut, so I know it can win, thus I need one. Now if it's up to '81 let's see....I can have any of these cars, a number of them seem to win, they are available for a bit less money, and we can have diversity in our fields.
Just my thoughts. I'm sure there are DB1 owners who are already planning their ads for $20k. lol
Thanks to everyone. This was the kind of enlightened discourse I was hoping for. Todd what about us 60+ guys struggling to get out of our T-200s. ;).
I agree completely with Paul's comments that vintage racing's purpose should be about preserving and celebrating the past. When the past is the past remains an open question. There are clubs that don't even allow Formula Fords.
I don't think vintage racing should be a dumping ground for cars that are merely obsolete or no longer competitive. I do think that car preparation and presentation are important. Having said all that I appreciate all the input from you gentlemen and I will now sign off.
Best regards,
Bud Byrnes
Club Ford rules around the country generally use 1981 and having suspension outboard on one end as the requirement to run as a Club Ford. I am not sure how much of an advantage the full inboard '82 and '83 cars have. As noted above, I think set-up and driver skill are usually the big factors at the SCCA regional level and vintage.
- Frank C
[size="1"][ 02-25-2003, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: Frank C ][/size]
2006
2007
A DB-1 was on the pole for the RunOffs in 1983:
[url="http://www.scca.org/amateur/club_racing/runoffs/records/poles-formula.html"]http://www.scca.org/amateur/club_racing/runoffs/records/poles-formula.html[/url]
I thought I'd heard that the VARA Fords had to be pre-83 because the Swift debut in 1983.
Brad
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