Does anyone have contact with CART or IRL principles?
CART supports karting, CART stars of the future. Why would they not support the midlevel in some way? What good is getting through karting and having no way to get to CART?
Or are you supposed to go from Karts to Skip Barber or something?
I assume IRL guys will come from an oval series.
Current speculation is that IRL may start doing some road racing as the new Dallara has fuel filler provisions on both sides. With a former Formula Ford Runoffs champion in the family tree maybe Tony would entertain a FF Pro Series being a feeder to IRL.
Tony was a FF guy too. Still an SCCA member.
2003 VanDiemen FSCCA #29
Follow me on Twitter @KeithCarter74
Guys,
Now this discussion has some meat to it, ..
Great idea but what would we offer them at this point?
I for one would give 120% support.
Curtis
vector FF
Racing Flow Development
I read an article in Autosport. Chris Pook of CART said the new model of CART is to follow the success of the NFL. Which is they are going to try to run more events in metro areas to build local interest. From there interest in the sport will spread nationally.
Local SCCA racing supports this model. What would be cooler than having a couple exhibition CART cars traveling to SCCA events. FF lets the avg guy experience a little of what a pro experiences. It is as if the local softball team can play a pick up game every Sat at Yankee Stadium.
But what you really need to accomplish is generating interest in the sport. Giving the average guy the belief that he/she can participate. CF needs to be promoted as an affordable real race car. SCCA needs to see the public as a revenue source, not driver entry fees. They must market the events as family weekend events. Come to the races, have a picknic, camp overnight and have some entertainment. If CART sees an audience, they'll invest. Right now the people at SCCA events are already fans. They need exposure to new audiences. Give some people who might not attend a reason to. One good way would be to do something for children. Then the moms will make the trip.
Joe,
Could this be as simple as going to CART with a 20 car field of FFs and getting track time at their events?
Based on this we could produce a CART FF series and promote the entry level class to all the fans at CART races.
Humm, Karts to FF to Atlantic to CART, .. seems right to me.
Curtis
Vector FF
Racing Flow Development
CART allready has it's ladder system and they don't include the SCCA.
Karts
Barber-CART run-offs (these are Dodge powerd FF's) the winner gets a scholorship for the next step.
Barber Dodge pro series
Toyota Atlantics
CART
There is no money to be made by CART in the SCCA.
[size="1"][ December 19, 2002, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: BrooksHall ][/size]
This is the problem, exactly. There should be no Skip Barber in the CART ladder. Karts, FF, FA, CART... period.
The ladder should be based more on talent than on pocket book. Barber series' are for corporate outings, not making racers.
So how do we get FF noticed in the US, like the rest of the world?
The rest of the world has pro FF championships. A pro series is the only way to elevate this class. Now you go and do that and you'll get your engine change. Keep in mind that the SCCA is building it's own entry level open wheel class that will have a pro series so I wouldn't look for to much help from them. FF in Europe is big big business which includes big big dollars. With the elevation that you all desire will come the enevitable rise in costs.
BTW A.J. Allmendinger might dissagree with your assesment of the Barber/CART ladder system. Having watched A.J. in karts I can tell you he is the real deal.
You got to offer them something they are not getting with Skippy that they feel is more valuable.If you can come up with a marketing idea that will promote young drivers to Formula Atlantic and bring in spectators and some income, maybe new sponsors or something.I tried to organize a FF Pro Series thru the AFFA and I was told we would have to buy the track time slot for the race weekend and it was a minimun of $35K per weekend.Those kind of buy in figures don't allow a promoter to make any money.It is difficult to have affordable entry fees if you have to pay that much to put on a race unless you have a big Corporate sponsor.Figure entry fee $500.00 and have 30 entries still only $15000.00.It is a tough nut to crack unless you can convince CART,IRL or even F2000 to make you part of their ladder system.It sure would be cool if it could happen.
You can contact Chris Pook at:
Championship Auto Racing Teams Inc.
5350 Lakeview Parkway South Drive
Indianapolis, IN 46268 USA
Email:cartbusiness@cart.com
TEL: (317) 715-4100
FAX: (317) 715-4110
For the IRL try:
Indy Racing League
4565 W. 16th Street
Indianapolis, IN 46222
Phone: (317) 484-6526
Fax: (317) 484-6525
e-mail: [email]indyracingleague@brickyard.com[/email]
From my experiece, race promotors have been charging in the $40k+ range for the track time for a support race. Even with 40 cars, the entry fee (to cover costs) would probably be $1500+ per entrant. It would help if you have sponsors to offset that cost, but as Jay Ivey has pointed out, currently there is no one willing to step up and put money into FF.
GUYS GUYS GUYS.....Don't start writing letters to Chris Pook. If you want to do something, you need to contact the Canadian Pro Series people FIRST, not Chris Pook. They already have a system in place that works. There has to be some sort of organized plan, and it is not going to happen here on FF1600.
This is a business venture, not individuals 'poping off' and sending a letter to a 'very' powerful individial, and coming off looking as amaturish as everyone thinks we are. A meeting has to be organized in a central location, like Chicago, and rules must be 'followed' at the meeting, and a agenda 'followed'. This cannot be conducted like an out of hand town meeting. Money has to be collected to organize an 'assault' on the masses. Yes, MONEY. Everyone on this site complaines about cost. Do you really think that a CF race would ever be held at a CART event? Lets be real.
There will have to be a very good representation made similar to a 'Runoffs' grid, not a regional race. Newer cars, not old 32F's or Tiga's, are what will appeal to Cart. Tony George knows what a FF looks like, it is Kyles Vandiemen. Think first, don't react. Trust me, that is the route that produces the most fruitful results, not knee jerk reactions like what I have been known to do.
A.J. You want to know what it takes, MONEY, MONEY, MONEY, and more MONEY. Money has always driven who gets the rides. You got a budget, you can drive for Jordan or Minardi in F1 right now! IT IS CORPORATE WINING AND DINING, BLOWING IN THEIR EARS, AND THE PARTY THAT MAKES THEM LET LOOSE OF THEIR M O N E Y !!!!
Jon
[size="1"][ December 19, 2002, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: Jon Horgas ][/size]
Dave Weitzenhof
Jon,
You are absolutely right. MONEY. I guess I just wish that it was like what I hear in the 'good ol' days,' when a poor Italian kid named Mario could make it based on his talents. Yeah, I'm just dreaming and waxing, and missing the most important element: Money.
...not to get too far off topic.
Yes, lets talk to the Canadians first, most letters to Chris Pook probably wouldn't advance our cause.
Also, maybe we should talk to Ford. They help 'pro-series' in Canada, Europe, Australia... Ford could help offset a huge entry cost at a CART event. They do it elsewhere.
[size="1"][ December 19, 2002, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: A J Graff ][/size]
First - Why does CART look to Skip B? If every company folded because of competition where would we be?
2nd - Spec Miata has been built from the ground up. This is what FF needs to do. Read sports car and you'll see they are getting some good sponsor deals in thier new pro events. No one is going to hand you a pro event. Build it first.
3rd - Just because there are FF, you may need a new formula - car engine chassis whatever.
4th - FF offers something the Skip does not, local avg guys. If you market the sport as affordable and the avg person can relate to the driver behind the wheel, you've got something. I know the racing may be good, but if I know that the driver is talented and some rich silver spoon boy/girl, I am not interested. But if you have a talented driver, and he has a story to tell, then you have human interest and marketing potential.
Lot's of good reasons posted in this forum as to why CART will not run any sort of an amateur series during their weekend. Additionally, how many weekend warriors have the talent to run through a concrete canyon at race pace? And how many drivers can afford to lose their entire investment to one small error of judgement? The cost of competing in street circuits would limit the PRO series to the best funded teams with few local drivers competing. Maybe, a PRO series to run in conjuction with a kart road racing series may attract younger drivers to FF. Just a thought...
DW
JR Pringle
Another data point in the discussion: The only truly successful FF 1600 pro series run in the U.S. was geographically very limited to an area not much beyond SCCA's NEDiv.
The class does not lend itself well to the economics of nationwide travel and time committments. Yes, it might draw local talent much as the original TransAm did, but it needs a large enough pool of regular, full time participants to be anything more than a time filler in the pro weekend like the aerobatic demonstration at the RA CART weekend this year.
While a true nationwide " ladder" pro series sounds like big fun i wonder how many realise just how much their racing cost would go up. The travel alone would would be crippling to many. Then add to that the time off work needed to get to the tracks. We already have a situation in club racing where very few people run every race in their divisions because such and such track is just to far. No series is going to survive based on local drivers only.
Now consider that a race promoter is going to want to see only the top level of appearence and preparation levels. Thats going to be a huge increase in speding for alot of drivers. Take a wheel to the bodywork while racing hard for position and get broken bodywork. Taping over the cracks for the next event isnt going to cut it. Either going to have to replace the panel or at least remove, repair, and repaint the offending piece.Even transport equipoment is going to get bigger and more expensive. A big time race promoter wants only the best and most professional appearence.
Crash damge will obviously go up. The combination of street cicuits and if its beiung promoted as a "ladder" series, young drivers is going to break some racecars. More $. Spares inventory is going to go up. Cant see myself leaving from my Baltimore Maryland area shop to attend pro race at CARTs laguna weekend unless i can replace every single part on the car if my driver crashes.
All this seems to go against everything this board always debates....cost control. How in one breath can we worry about having to spending the money for a second set of tires on a given weekend, then promote the idea of a pro series that could easily end up creating budgets in the 100k area to win not including buying the car?
Ok its also possible to be attached not as a ladder series event but as part of a " b" package to an existing series. The ff2000 setec series would be good example. But alas smaller lower level pro series usually rely on product sponors in order to achieve purses. Thats going to lead to spec parts on cars. Yes thats right spec parts if not just plain old spec cars. eeeeeeek ! Another of this boards taboo topics.
Now I personally would love to see a pro series formed as i enjoy working on the cars and also just watching a good FF race. Lets just not fool ourselves into thinking getting a pro series is as simple as asking for one.
Frankly the Canadian series is almost ideal. A series attended by some good older drivers as well as some guys who have future pro racing asperations. You appear not to need the " car of the year" to compete and get to race on tires far more suited for the low power levels of the Kent. Add to that the fact that the Canadians seems to support and love their motorsports and actually show up to spectate the events.
The most common complaint i hear when suggesting that option is " travel ". That being the case then how will i nationwide pro series ever work here? Alot of distance between the east and west coast.
sory to ramble on a bit but just wanted to get some topics out in the open for future discussions. I think if we sit back and relax a little bit we'll find that what we have now isnt so bad. We have a place to race our cars, a great support group of suppliers, and an engine that if treated properly isnt a time bomb despite popular opinion lately.I almost forgot the best part of what we have: a great group of guys with which to race hard.
thanks,Kevin
If you are a young, talented karter with some backing, what direction are you going to go?
You need to go to a series where your sponsors want you to go. Just ask DARIO.
Many will run out of money during their climb long before they run out of ability.
How could FF possibly be restructured to be on the aspiring pro's list of viable options? What is it that a FF could offer that isn't already available in other series elsewhere?
edited to delete some redundant points that were better made by others above.
[size="1"][ December 19, 2002, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: Quickshoe ][/size]
Just as a point of reference, we need 150 entries just to break even at a regional in Cal Club. Putting on a race ain't cheap folks. This is the reason that CART uses Skippy the infrastucture already exists. The cars are well prepared the money is there. It's all about the benjamans. Groups like Skip B and Fran-Am have it, we club racers don't that's why we are club racers.
How many of you would go to the runoff if you qualified? I don't mean to drive but to go to there to win. The ones who do spend a ton of cash to do it. The time off of work the tires the runoff motor and spares. Hell most of us couldn't afford the runoffs let alone a pro-series.
Somehow I just can't see CART 'aligning itself' with the SCCA! I'm still puzzled if that would be a step up or down right now.... Then again, given car counts they will have next year maybe we could give them a larger field.
Let's see.... I'm envisioning 35 gray haired old farts in clapped out mid 70s oil leakers and 12 or so rich boys who don't speak any English. PARTY!
[size="1"][ December 19, 2002, 08:02 PM: Message edited by: Todd TCE ][/size]
The idea is to support the local level racing like Mazda does with spec miata. All you guys can think about is a pro series. First fix what you've got, then look to a pro series.
Building a new open wheel road racing base is what is needed. You need to realize that you need an organized, focused 5 year plan to revive the class/sport.
If not it will exist as it is. Little new car sales. Bitching about the engine or no engine. Fields shrinking. Spec cars displacing the class. I don't have the investment many of you have. I just hate to see a good thing wither.
my dad ran the Toyota Atlantic series for a couple of years. the Atlantics were always treated as second class citizens. if CART practice
ran long and screwed up TA qualifying, then too bad. At one race the Barber Dodges had to practice in the dark, with a pace car with its headlights on leading the way. The TA races were always getting cut short so the CART races would start on time(TV). so now i ask the question, what kind of treatment could a bunch of amatuer FF expect? CART has their own problems right now.
You don't need to run with CART or IRL to be supported by CART.
Inclusions in marketing materials, show cars at events, a logo on every CART car. A ton of small things can be done to increase the visibilty of local club racing without much money.
For Example, - m. gidley (spelling) and Paul Tracy participate as drivers in the CART stars of the future. Just have some drivers compete in an SCCA race on a weekend. Just like NASCAR drivers do at local tracks across the country.
Get a little interest and you'll then see opportunities for sponsors. Get a few big ones and guess what, they'll say, "we need a bigger splash" lets have a pro series.
However, When I look at the SCCA, I don't see them giving you any of this effort. If you ask me they punch the clock. They seem to be a bunch of car enthusiasts that are getting a wage in the industry. You need someone with business and marketing vision. This is not about racing.
Silly replies aside, the real way to support the dying ways of FF is not to start by trying to find a way to Pro Race the cars or start a Series.
Many of you don't have any idea what this would cost to run and if you do, you already are relegated to spectators. Can you really afford to spend $3-5K a weekend on your FF just to attempt to revive a dying breed??
Want to help? Yes, in fact I do. Start at the level you work at now; support the local races, ENTER an event damn it! Then support the prep shops, the engine builders, the tranny builders (plug for me and Craig) and BUY some parts once in a while. Hell, if you can't afford to replace rod ends or masters how are you going to go Pro Racing??!
Start by getting the class up again in your own region. Come to PHX for the National, FF or CFF or whatever. Stop making exucuses and waiting for someone to offer you the magical fix. It aint coming.
In the end FF will still die a long term death. There isn't any new blood and there won't be either. But at least you can enjoy the coming ten years or so at a raasonable cost and keep the memories.
Todd-I agree,all this complaining and not enough racing.I run 10-12 events a year plus the Runoffs.If every one who owned a FF would race 8 times a year our numbers would double.In Texas this year we had a Reg/Nat at Texas Motor Speedway in Ft. Worth and Jay Ivey offered contingency prizes,Tony Lama boots gave a new pair of boots and I spent $300.00 and donated really nice trophies for the event.We had 14 cars show up.Our average until this year was probably 12-13 cars with our largest field at our Double National.(15 cars).I have come to Phoenix many years where there were 18 cars.We need 20 plus car fields and FF will return to some prominence and visability.The point is we as FF owners and drivers must do it ourselves by participating that means racing.I remember my first trip to the June Sprints,50 cars and before 1991 there were more.Wouldn't that be great to see 30 or 40 or even 50 car fields again?It probably will never happen but I think 20 plus car fields should be the average.I think that is attainable number.
Right now there are two main ladder systems in America.
"Skippy ladder" Karting-Formula Dodge-Barber Dodge-Atlantics-CART
or
"SCCA ladder" Karting-Formula Ford-Zetec-Atlantics-CART
Some of you might be forgetting how much SCCA is involved in one of those two ladders. Next year you will also see the new Formula SCCA as a pro series on the Formula Ford level (when I say it is on that level I mean it is designed to be an entry level class). Zetec's are sanctioned by SCCA Pro Racing don't forget. Drivers on their way to CART are going to go where they have the toughest competition and get the most exposure. SCCA club racing does not offer that because the CART community is not aware of SCCA club racing at all and open wheel fields in SCCA club racing are not always incredibly deep. I believe in the SCCA ladder personally although I am not knocking the Skippy system. On a CART weekend, people are there to see a pro weekend. They want to see pro classes. A regular SCCA race is not what the fans are necessarily wanting to see. Also the whole goal of SCCA club racing is to have fun, not to train drivers for CART, leave that for the SCCA Pro Racing division. I know some of you might be thinking that I left out Fran-Am but right now they are so new that it is hard to see where they will fall in a few years. Right now I look at a third ladder to be the "Fran-Am" ladder of Karting-Fran Am 1600-Fran Am 2000-Fran Am V6- Atlantics- CART. But it is too early to tell. Anyways, just remember that SCCA Club Racing is for club racing not pro racing. I don't think SCCA club racing could survive because the average joe that it caters too wouldn't be able to afford running at a pro level. I know that if I didn't have a lot of help I wouldn't be able to afford it and I don't even know if I can afford it in 2003. I for one love SCCA club racing. I tell people that I love to race and once I can make it in CART and accomplish my goals that I will go back to SCCA club racing and run Atlantics and Formula Ford to just have fun, which is what it is meant to be, cheap (relatively) and fun. I am a bit upset right now because I had so many thoughts about all of this but I can't seem to find a way to type them so I will have to come back to this later.
Chris frank
Andy:
For a young man you have a very mature perspective on the situation. It seems many of the older guys have forgotten that club racing is just that, club racing for the enjoyment of racing. For me, now 47 years old, and having started racing only 10 years ago I am not interested in pro racing. I have another life and a profession that interests me just as much as racing.
My goal is to be competitive, work on on the car and balance my family and professional activity with an activity so different that it totally pulls me away from my other life.
Good luck with your racing career.
Frank
Andy and Frank: Perhaps you could be persuaded to cut and paste those 2 posts into an e-mail and send it directly to Steve Johnson at SCCA headquarters. If the management of this club would take the content of your posts to heart, and manage with these posts as guidelines half the membership would stand up and cheer.
Merry Christmas. gm
[quote]Originally posted by 86bre:
[b]...once I can make it in CART and accomplish my goals that I will go back to SCCA club racing and run Atlantics and Formula Ford to just have fun, which is what it is meant to be...[/b][/quote]Andy,
Good luck to you. Checked out your site, see you are an ex-karter from Phoenix. Perhaps you and Buddy get along well and he can pull a favor and get you an Atlantic test with Lynx? ;)
Best of luck to you, at 18 with the success and experience you have, you should have a better shot than most.
[size="1"][ December 22, 2002, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: Quickshoe ][/size]
Thank you guys for the kind words. Hopefully this can be an awesome year for me in 2003. And yes, I talk to Buddy on almost a weekly basis ;)
Chris frank
My view is as follows:
There is and can be no "pro racing" without solid grassroots racing.
If you look closely, this is what CART is doing. They are having more urban venues and associations with karting. Why do you think all those grandstands are empty? So CART is trying to build a long term foundation for it's sport in the US.
The FF stakeholders need to get together and get in the game. The last we read, new car sales could be counted on your hand. Todd, says that the guys in the sport are not big spenders. So it sounds like the aftermarket community is hurting.
If you guys all want an SCCA "club", then that is fine. But then I find hard to imagine companies investing money in engine parts and chassis for a group of low-buck "club" only racers.
"Production" car racing can get away with this because the cars are essentially homebuilt and have an abundance of parts. However, forumla cars require manufacturer support. So, the class should look to the pro ranks for marketing support to drive interest. NOT have a race at a CART event. Why, because SCCA is not going to do it for you, they are looking to promote the SPEC car. To you it is a nice club, to them it is a business and you are competition.
ok...my two cents worth...keep this pro vs amateur in this clear perspective - - - who owns the car? if you own the car, you are probably an amateur. what pro owns their own cars as they rise up the ladder?....none with very very few exceptions. some at the top rungs do indeed own their own cars but then they own the team too. if you think you as the owner/driver belong in support races to pro series, think again. the closest thing to that for me was an HSR experience with my vintage MG as part of the 50th anniversary of the Sebring 12 hours weekend but HSR is not part of it this year, HSR is part of the Daytona 24 hours weekend instead...no formula car grid though. you seen what HSR entry fees are?...even for thier own events not linked to pro events....if you drive a 1990 Mazda/Kudzu you can be part of the 24 hour weekend for $895. ouch says the amateur. Happy holidays/Hannakua/Christmas/Kwanza/Solstice/HumanLight/Festivus/Ramadan/or ....what do Buddists or Hindus do?
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