FV disc brakes

[S Lathrop]

"The track width restriction seems to be a major challenge as I research the possibilities."

Yep. Seems many choices if track width is not a consideration, but few, if any, good ones to keep the standard required track width.

I'm assuming a viable choice will present itself prior to 2019.

I have looked at this design challenge. Not only is the track width going to be tough, using the required wheel will also further complicate the design problems. I think that this is going to necessitate a purpose design, there is not some combination of "stock" parts that are going to work..

We will all have to look at what the final rules are going to be.

[B Farnham]

The kit from Jamar that Ray designed works with the current wheels, keeps the same track and is the same weight as the drums.

I believe it also uses the same bearings that are currently used on the drums as well.

[BLS]

Jamar website doesn't give any details, but I'm sure some will be forthcoming.

[Stumpthumper]

For discussion sake, doesn't this kit meet the rule as we know it, assuming it meets the weight requirement?
http://www.jbugs.com/product/22-2880.html

[Hardingfv32]

Absolutely.... Easily meets weight requirement.

Brian

[S Lathrop]

That is the only approach to a disk brake setup for FV that I think will work.

And that price is really reasonable, if not a bargain.

[Hardingfv32]

A note about the Jamar kits. Do not expect them to redesign their kits to meet our requirements. They were sold a few years ago and they have not introduced and new brake products since then (2012). The guy who does the design/CNC programing (former owner?) is never at the shop and is unresponsive to phone/email communication. I doubt they are in the going to introduce any new very low volume products.

Brian

[FVRacer21]

My concern from the beginning is how will the wheel mounting flange hold up under heavy cornering and braking (at the same time)

I assume these are coming from China and to make up for the quality of material, they sometimes increase the thickness (weight).

Has anyone tried these yet? Even on a street car?

Chris

[Matt Clark]

A note about the Jamar kits. Do not expect them to redesign their kits to meet our requirements. They were sold a few years ago and they have not introduced and new brake products since then (2012). The guy who does the design/CNC programing (former owner?) is never at the shop and is unresponsive to phone/email communication. I doubt they are in the going to introduce any new very low volume products.

Brian

at times like this, I really wish the people who actually know & in the mix would post the correct information, instead of blind guesses from those not even involved.

[Hardingfv32]

Yes... it is my opinion based on what information I have been able to gather. People you claim to be in the know have yet to post anything about a kit that meets the no change track requirements.

I have some Jamar parts in hand and I can safely say, with no doubt, that completely new hubs are required for the front and rear. Even then it will not be physically possible to fit a 2 piston caliper at the front. Those are the facts.

Please relate the engineering/design facts that you are aware of.

Brian

[Matt Clark]

nevermind.....

[problemchild]

at times like this, I really wish the people who actually know & in the mix would post the correct information, instead of blind guesses from those not even involved.

You are complaining to the wrong people.
If you don't want "blind guesses from those not even involved" then post the information.

How many people on this board, or in any class, would have blind faith that SCCA has got this right?
Like really?

BTW, I would love to get the source for those $80 FF brake pads.

[Hardingfv32]

$80 FF brake pads...

Talking LD-19 Caliper.... what do you considered the normal prices for competitive pads these days?

I see Hawks from $63-87. I have just started reviewing the pad compound issue and welcome your insight.

Brian

[IntegraR0064]

Just thought I'd mention, I've been going back and forth about getting into FV for at least 5 or 6 years now, and the one thing that makes me always pause and not jump in is the lack of disc brakes. Even adjusting the drums on my trailer is one of my least enjoyed jobs, in the world, and I always feel like it comes out suboptimally. If it was my race car I'd drive myself crazy with it. If they had disc brakes, I would already have one, for sure. Even now as soon as it seems like the dust is settled and there's a kit we can use and the rule is for sure passed, I'll immediately get very serious about buying one.

Just wanted to make it clear that we're not just mythical creatures.

[problemchild]

Just thought I'd mention, I've been going back and forth about getting into FV for at least 5 or 6 years now, and the one thing that makes me always pause and not jump in is the lack of disc brakes. Even adjusting the drums on my trailer is one of my least enjoyed jobs, in the world, and I always feel like it comes out suboptimally. If it was my race car I'd drive myself crazy with it. If they had disc brakes, I would already have one, for sure. Even now as soon as it seems like the dust is settled and there's a kit we can use and the rule is for sure passed, I'll immediately get very serious about buying one.

Just wanted to make it clear that we're not just mythical creatures.

Well yes .... but the problem is ....
10% of the group hates adjusting the effun brakes.
and 10% hate the effun steering box
and 10% hate the effun intake manifolds
and 10% hate having to change the whole transmission instead of some gears
and 10% hate having to use all that rpm instead of having a spec transmission and taller tires
and 10% hate having skinny funny looking tires
and 10% hate having to use genuine 60 year old German parts because they are better than the Chinese crap online
and 10% hate having swing axles
and 10% hate still using LP front beams instead of BJ front beams
and 10% hate something else
It used to be that 80% hated the lifespan of tires, but most of those people quit the class or went to Challenge Cup, so now only 40% hate the open tire deal.
Like an old family member, FV is what it is. You accept it for what it is or you do something else.
Considering where you live, you can race Challenge Cup, which has no competition as the cheapest formula class in North America. The competition is really good, as are the people involved. You are fortunate to live where you do. Get involved and spend your resources doing some racing. In a year or three, you can waste some of your money on new brakes.

And, if adjusting brakes on a FV was anything like on my trailer, I would hate it too. But it is not. You could teach a monkey to do it.

[problemchild]

Talking LD-19 Caliper.... what do you considered the normal prices for competitive pads these days?

I see Hawks from $63-87. I have just started reviewing the pad compound issue and welcome your insight.

Brian

I don't want to sidetrack the endless cycle of complaining about what's wrong when we know that the time to choose any direction but the status quo, was 3 decades ago, but I think the FF brake situation has changed a bit in the last few years. Since alloy brake calipers were allowed, you can put much bigger brakes on a FF without the weight penalty. While there is the full gammit of people using different combinations at different competitive levels, most of the top competitors are using PF pads that list in the $125 range per end. By using LD20 sized pads (also twice as thick as LD19) you get more than double the life. The extra lb or two, and $80 cost for the bigger calipers, is quickly offset by cost of pad replacements. I still run surplus Hawk blacks on the front of my Reynard, and surplus crap on the rear, but I am not winning races or setting lap records. Some have the PF calipers but those pads are common with USF2000 so those pads cost 90% more. Depending on the track, fast guys may get 4 or 5 weekends on LD20s or 2 or 3 on LD19s.
The good pads definitely use up the rotors, but most would run rotors for several years.

Note: I am just providing basic info from my experience. I am not interested in defending my experience, when the inevitable stories develop about winning guys who use $25 pads, changed once a year, with rotors that are two decades old.

Back to the endless cycle.

[Matt Clark]

Just thought I'd mention, I've been going back and forth about getting into FV for at least 5 or 6 years now, and the one thing that makes me always pause and not jump in is the lack of disc brakes. Even adjusting the drums on my trailer is one of my least enjoyed jobs, in the world, and I always feel like it comes out suboptimally. If it was my race car I'd drive myself crazy with it. If they had disc brakes, I would already have one, for sure. Even now as soon as it seems like the dust is settled and there's a kit we can use and the rule is for sure passed, I'll immediately get very serious about buying one.

Just wanted to make it clear that we're not just mythical creatures.

Considering where you live, you can race Challenge Cup, which has no competition as the cheapest formula class in North America. The competition is really good, as are the people involved. You are fortunate to live where you do. Get involved and spend your resources doing some racing.

Greg is correct here. You are in a great location for Challenge Cup, and as of this past Wednesdays membership call-in, it was announced we actually are starting to allow disc brakes for the 2018 season.

[Matt Clark]

If you don't want "blind guesses from those not even involved" then post the information.

I agree... but the problem is, even when info IS posted (such as below), people completely ignore it or try to hold you to something when you are still working the solution.

I can safely say, with no doubt, that completely new hubs are required for the front and rear. Even then it will not be physically possible to fit a 2 piston caliper at the front. Those are the facts.

I guess we all imagined seeing & running against 2-piston calipers 6 months ago....
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...l=1#post545473

[problemchild]

it was announced we actually are starting to allow disc brakes for the 2018 season.

That would be a logical step. If you can find a few volunteers who are not worried about points, they can sort through the problems and development. Then people can invest in what they think are going to be a trouble-free update. While 40-50 hours would be better, 8-10 hours of use would hopefully identify the initial issues. also, it is probably better to shakedown with the radials, which have different loading characteristics than the racing tires.

[Hardingfv32]

I guess we all imagined seeing & running against 2-piston calipers 6 months ago....

What you are picturing is a assembly that is about .5" wider (per side) that the legal limit set for SCCA FV's. Now if CC is changing the max track dimension... then you will be fine. Is CC proposing something that is not usable under SCCA rule?

Where is the picture of the rear brake assembly? Oh I forgot front only is good enough for CC.

Brian

[B Farnham]

That set up meets the track requirements, I'm not sure how you can tell that something is .5" wider from a picture other than you just want to argue just for the sake of arguing.

[S Lathrop]

Matt Clark;

I assume you looked at the EMPI VW front 5x205 wide 5 lug disk brake conversion for Beetle and Ghia 1954 - 65 kit? That is Stumpthumper's post #244. That package is close to $250 a corner. My post #3 stated that something like this is what is going to be required. I did not know that there is a conversion kit available now. Don't know if they have a conversion kit for the rear.

My bet is that the calipers and pads are not going to be ideal for a FV. But if I were going to develop a disk brake setup, I would start with the EMPI package. Unfortunately developing a disk brake package for FV is going to be a challenge, time consuming and will cost significant money.

The setup in the picture you posted does not appear to me to have any application to FV.

[B Farnham]

.

The setup in the picture you posted does not appear to me to have any application to FV.

It doesn't have any application to FV other than it meets the track requirements, meets the weight requirements, uses the current bearings used on the drums, is reasonable cost wise and is made in the US. Was it mentioned that this is a bolt on kit that only takes a few hours to convert to?

This thread just needs to be closed, discs are coming in 2019 and that was the point of the thread. The great thing is this kit already exists and will be tested in challenge cup over the next year. If someone wants to use the EMPI kit then go for it, that's the beauty of options but it's made in China if that tells you anything.

It's an exciting time that change is finally coming, don't let all the negative comments in here drown that out.

[S Lathrop]

It doesn't have any application to FV other than it meets the track requirements, meets the weight requirements, uses the current bearings used on the drums, is reasonable cost wise and is made in the US. Was it mentioned that this is a bolt on kit that only takes a few hours to convert to?

This thread just needs to be closed, discs are coming in 2019 and that was the point of the thread. The great thing is this kit already exists and will be tested in challenge cup over the next year. If someone wants to use the EMPI kit then go for it, that's the beauty of options but it's made in China if that tells you anything.

It's an exciting time that change is finally coming, don't let all the negative comments in here drown that out.

What I see in the picture would not be legal for FV because the wheel is not legal. You have to stay with the wide 5 FV wheel. I did not hear that new wheels were going to accompany disk brakes. It is the wheel that is the biggest restriction on what you can do.

[problemchild]

This thread just needs to be closed, discs are coming in 2019 and that was the point of the thread..

I went back to post 1. I saw no declaration of the point of this thread. There appears to be a lot more info to come out. How do you expect people to make informed opinions if everything is secret? When is the announcement of the info scheduled for?

I do have one question. Your post listed a bunch of criteria the parts in the photo met, but being SCCA legal was not included in your list. What is not legal to this point?

Also, from the rule ...... "Any ferrous alloy, unvented rotor may be used, but must have a maximum diameter of 11.75 in. and a minimum thickness of 0.20 in. The otherwise smooth rotor may have a maximum of three pad cleaning grooves per side"
Do I see lightening holes in the pic that would conflict with the rule?

[R. Pare]

, but I think the FF brake situation has changed a bit in the last few years. Since alloy brake calipers were allowed, you can put much bigger brakes on a FF without the weight penalty.
Back to the endless cycle.

Actually, that changed 27 years ago when we introduced our lightweight CI calipers - the allowance for alu calipers has done nothing to change what was already happening.

As far as the system in the picture, it is not SCCA legal because of the lightening slots that go all the way through the rotor, and the wheel is not the standard VW bolt pattern. Can't tell from the picture about any possible track width change.

[Amon]

What I see in the picture would not be legal for FV because the wheel is not legal. You have to stay with the wide 5 FV wheel. I did not hear that new wheels were going to accompany disk brakes. It is the wheel that is the biggest restriction on what you can do.

Steve,

The wheel and tire you're looking at is the FV Challenge Cup set-up and NOT the std. SCCA FV wheel / tire comb.....

Mark

[B Farnham]

That is the wheel and tire package of the challenge cup, the brakes will work with stock wheels as well. Those rotors are not the ones that are going to be used, the final production rotors weren't ready from Jamar at the time of the picture. Solid rotors will be used on the final product.

All the other specs have been discussed throughout this thread.

[Speed Sport Engineering]

While everyone is considering what options are going to be available for conversion kits, I wanted to let it be known that we have been working diligently for the past year to come up with what we think will be a fantastic conversion kit that will meet all of the requirements and not change the front or rear track, all while having a total weight extremely close to the drums. We're finalizing everything and will be determining pricing soon, as well as providing more details.

Thanks,

Michael Varacins

[Hardingfv32]

That set up meets the track requirements, I'm not sure how you can tell that something is .5" wider from a picture other than you just want to argue just for the sake of arguing.

I know because I have been designing a system all week and it is not physically possible to use a 'normal car racing' 2 piston caliper in the pictured location. For the caliper to clearer the back of the 5/8" wheel mounting plate, the disc has to be located in a position where it contacts the link pins. That is a fact.

Just use what ever track (or disc) you want in CC. No one at SCCA is going to care.

Brian

[B Farnham]

I know because I have been designing a system all week and it is not physically possible to use a 'normal car racing' 2 piston caliper in the pictured location. For the caliper to clearer the back of the 5/8" wheel mounting plate, the disc has to be located in a position where it contacts the link pins. That is a fact.

Just use what ever track (or disc) you want in CC. No one at SCCA is going to care.

Brian

Obviously someone is a better designer than you then because it does meet the SCCA track requirements and physically exists....

[Jnovak]

I agree... but the problem is, even when info IS posted (such as below), people completely ignore it or try to hold you to something when you are still working the solution.


I guess we all imagined seeing & running against 2-piston calipers 6 months ago....
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...l=1#post545473

does anyone know what this caliper is?

[S Lathrop]

Here is a cross section of what I sketched up as an exploration of what would be involved in doing a disk brake setup for FV.

The wheel, spindle, drum/ / hub are dimensioned from stock, FV legal parts.

This should give everyone a good idea of the challenge in building a disk brake setup. The caliper I have drawn is a single piston / floating caliper. What ever comes down the road is not going to be a lot different. Bottom line is there is very little space inside the FV wheel.

[Hardingfv32]

Obviously someone is a better designer than you then because it does meet the SCCA track requirements and physically exists....

The photo shown was stated to be of an original/un-modified Jamar front kit for a link pin front end. It was stated that it was tested last year or maybe even the year before. By definition the parts pictured could not have been re-engineered to meet the track requirement. ALL aluminum link pin front kits sold retail with multi piston calipers exceed the SCCA track requirement.

This is really not about engineering. With the parts physically in hand you will see that it is not possible.

In the above drawing note the surface where the backing plate normally mounts and note how close the disc is to this surface plane.

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

does anyone know what this caliper is?

The caliper pictured above is the Jamar 2 piston caliper. Standard for this kit. Nothing unusual and looks like all other 2 piston calipers made by the offroad manufactures. Car calipers... Wilwood is about the only company making extra small multi-piston caliper. That would be something smaller than a LD-19 which is common in FF.

Unfortunately most of these smaller calipers do not meet the new rule's 1.65 lb minimum weight requirement for the caliper.

Brian

[B Farnham]

The photo shown was stated to be of an original/un-modified Jamar front kit for a link pin front end. It was stated that it was tested last year or maybe even the year before. By definition the parts pictured could not have been re-engineered to meet the track requirement. ALL aluminum link pin front kits sold retail with multi piston calipers exceed the SCCA track requirement.

This is really not about engineering. With the parts physically in hand you will see that it is not possible.

In the above drawing note the surface where the backing plate normally mounts and note how close the disc is to this surface plane.

Steve can you provide a larger drawing?

Brian

From the start it's been stated the Jamar kit in that picture is not an off the shelf kit but one that was specifically designed for formula vee. Ray Carmondy has already tested this set up and has had it on the car, the track is correct and it fits inside a stock wheel. What else is there to argue?

[Hardingfv32]

If anyone else has any doubts just examine that drawing that was posted then go out and view the relationship of the backing plate to lower link pin.

Can someone post the Jamal P/N for the FV brake kit? Is there a P/N for the rear? If you call Jamar the person running/manning the shop does not know anything about any such parts?

Brian

[Jnovak]

The caliper pictured above is the Jamar 2 piston caliper. Standard for this kit. Nothing unusual and looks like all other 2 piston calipers made by the offroad manufactures. Car calipers... Wilwood is about the only company making extra small multi-piston caliper. That would be something smaller than a LD-19 which is common in FF.

Unfortunately most of these smaller calipers do not meet the new rule's 1.65 lb minimum weight requirement for the caliper.

Brian

sure is a nice looking package!

[Matt Clark]

What you are picturing is a assembly that is about .5" wider (per side) that the legal limit set for SCCA FV's. Now if CC is changing the max track dimension... then you will be fine. Is CC proposing something that is not usable under SCCA rule?

Where is the picture of the rear brake assembly? Oh I forgot front only is good enough for CC.

Brian

You keep insisting it is too wide, yet we have a our parts installed and say it meets it. I guess Ray Carmody doesn't know what he is talking about or how to use a tape.

As far as why we do not have much for the rear yet, it is because we are focusing on getting the front correct first. The track width and drum shoe costs are a much bigger deal on the front, the rears were a much less important problem... it has nothing to do with being "only good enough for CC". Those will be forthcoming as well.

Matt Clark;

I assume you looked at the EMPI VW front 5x205 wide 5 lug disk brake conversion for Beetle and Ghia 1954 - 65 kit? That is Stumpthumper's post #244. That package is close to $250 a corner. My post #3 stated that something like this is what is going to be required. I did not know that there is a conversion kit available now. Don't know if they have a conversion kit for the rear.

My bet is that the calipers and pads are not going to be ideal for a FV. But if I were going to develop a disk brake setup, I would start with the EMPI package. Unfortunately developing a disk brake package for FV is going to be a challenge, time consuming and will cost significant money.

The setup in the picture you posted does not appear to me to have any application to FV.

Yes. The Empi kit is basically the most obvious kit out there to start looking at, so we did. If I remember correctly, Ray found that kit does widen the track too much. They had a Wilwood package as well that would be cool, but was getting more expensive than we wanted to get into. We had no interest from them in working with us to re-engineer or develop anything to fit our needs. There also has been a LOT of concern over the quality of the metal Empi uses, both in this forum & in person to person talks at the track.

Also, from the rule ...... "Any ferrous alloy, unvented rotor may be used, but must have a maximum diameter of 11.75 in. and a minimum thickness of 0.20 in. The otherwise smooth rotor may have a maximum of three pad cleaning grooves per side"
Do I see lightening holes in the pic that would conflict with the rule?

Those rotors are the "stock" kit rotors. We spec'd solid ones, without the scallops on the OD, but they did not arrive in time for that test. Everything would be SCCA legal.

does anyone know what this caliper is?

sure is a nice looking package!

Yes, that would be the Jamar piece. Their parts really are very nicely done, which is one of the reasons we chose to work with them. Last I heard, I believe our front package is $600 now... but I can't find my message that made it official.

Can someone post the Jamal P/N for the FV brake kit? Is there a P/N for the rear? If you call Jamar the person running/manning the shop does not know anything about any such parts?

I have repeatedly said Ray Carmody is one of the ones working on this project (basically the main guy), and that it is a WIP... so no part numbers or kits officially exist yet. Why do you not simply contact him with any serious questions instead of trying to go directly to the supplier, potentially irritating them & messing up any progress? At work, I have seen vendors quit projects & agreements for very similar reasons.
I understand wanting info & being frustrated if you cannot get it, but doing that could hurt everyone here. It would really upset a LOT of people if someone not even involved from the west coast completely ruined something being done by a group 2000 miles away.

--------------------

I just want to point out & remind everyone of something quick.... the brake package we were working on was NOT intended to be an all-out pure race package, as we could have done. It was intended to be an OPTIONAL equivalent to the drums in performance, mass, etc. while reducing overall costs & maintenance. Now with the new SCCA rule wording & implementation looming, the target is kinda moving around some. We *may* have to tweak things further, we do not know for sure yet.
That being said, I am pretty much done here... no matter what is said or shown, it gets drowned out in an online pissing contest that helps no one. Offline contact seems to be where things are most productive anymore.
To all the new people reading or researching topics; always keep in mind that most people are sadly not posting in the forums for that exact reason, so do not take what you read online as Gospel.

[Stumpthumper]

Matt, as a new guy sadly it hasn't taken long to see who the constant naysayers are.