FF, to be or not to be?

[Aiken Racing]

Well I'm sure most of you know about my Citation FF that I've been rebuilding and upgrading the past year or so and I'm at a turning point.

Some of you also may know that I lost my engine and now my car is sitting in 3 pieces now (transmission, engine and chassis). So now I have to spend between 2-3k on a rebuild. Luckily I didn't blow it up so I didn't break anything... at least to my knowledge.

I love road racing and especially open wheel classes like Formula Ford. I never imagined that a Formula Ford would be this expensive though like any racing, nothing is cheap. The history of FF is amazing and the cars are a perfect tool to learn how to race as if you can get good at FF it will help you in many aspects.

Honestly, all I want to do it race with a big competitive field and have fun. I think I could race anything (other then oval track stock cars) and enjoy myself. From Showroom stock to Rally, good racing can be found where ever you look. In a lot of regions there aren't many FFs which I hate seeing this because this is a good class filled with great drivers.

So if I want to race and have a good time should I just rebuild my FF engine and try to scrounge up as much money as I can?

I have a good job, make good money, single, young and have no kids. I spent almost every cent I have on the car and I don't even have a trailer yet or spare parts. Some would say that I should have just saved my money and bought a totally done car or rented a car...BUT would I of learned anything out of it? I would have more driving experience but I wouldn't understand all components of a FF as I do now. I don't consider myself an expert but I have learned so much from all of you in the past year or so that I can't even put a dollar figure on that.

So where do I go now? I want to race, with more then just a few cars and be able to do it for a number of years. I have a FF near complete now but I still need to invest money for a rebuild, body work, extra tires, etc. For the best bang for the buck, so I just continue with my FF since I already have a lot of money invested or should I go elsewhere?

Don't take this as a "should I ditch you guys or stay?" question... I'm just asking for your honest opinion since all of you have raced more then me and I'm sure others have came to this point at sometime. Forget about what I should of done differently…. What should I do now?

Let me know how you all feel.

Thanks,
Chris More
[url="http://www.chrismore.com"]www.chrismore.com[/url]

[Bryan Pacelli]

Chris,

I am like you. I have a lola 342 sitting in the garage, but got priced out of the SCCA to race it.

Lets start a new FF class under NASA. Imaging 4 hours of track time per weekend running enduros for the same price as an SCCA 15 lap weekend.....

[Ferris11]

Chris,

Dude, .. after all that work, .. don't give up now!

You have one of the nicest, cleanest cars around, .. take a step back, .. take a month away from the car, ..
then ask yourself if you want to continue.

It's no doubt that racing is expensive in any form, .. and not just entry fees, .. but tires, .. engines, gas, ..tires, .
and of course for those qualifying sessions, .. tires.

If you need an engine rebuild, .. maybe after the off season it'll be in the budjet. But what else can
we do that will bring so much joy and excitment??

Just take a break, .. tear the engine down next month and see what it needs, .. it may not be too bad.
Once it's torn down, .. contact me and I'll help any way I can.

As for Lola 342, .. if a $200 entry fee priced you out of SCCA, .. what will the tire bill for 4 hours of track time do? The most expensive part isn't the entry fees.

Curtis
Vector FF

[Dale Carter]

Chris, what happened to the motor? In over 200 events, I have never lost a crank but twice I burned main bearings. I build my own engines. Total cost of rebuild was turning the crank .010", new bearings and a gasket set - $250. Latest problem I have heard about is lifter failure which I believe Jay Ivey is in the process rectifying. So I think it depends on what failed and why. Then you can look realistically at the true re-build cost and go from there. Of course it's more if you need an engine builder to do it all and if you lost a lot of the internals. Stick with it. After all you've done on that beautiful car, you deserve to race it for a year or so before you look to move up. Let me know if I can help with any engine info.

[ennis bragg]

Chris,
Drop me a line...I may have some ideas for ya.

Dave

[DENIS]

You don't NEED to spend a ton-o-cash to fix that motor. You state that you goal is to have fun and do some races etc. You do not have to send your motor to a 'builder' to have this happen. I have nothing agains them, they have their place, just not in YOUR car. Talk to some local shops and us here so we can help and let's just fix what's wrong and put it back together.

As for Lola 342, you have some valid points, but in this case he's not looking to spend $4k on a motor or $3k on the shocks. Seems you two have much in commons. UN park that thing and join the race.

[DKRock]

Hang in there Chris! I think Todd is dead on. You don't need a pro rebuild. Nothing that makes HP is hurt, right? It looks like the regulars here are more than willing to help you with any questions you might have.

I've been away from the Northeast for a while, but I would imagine there are more than a couple of FF's to dice with? Are you determined to run only SCCA? What about EMRA? How about some other FF's from the Northeast weighing in here?

Put together a low cost rebuild and go for some kind of track time to get the fires stoked again! Don't give up now!

PS: I'm not a FF guy, but you should stay the course!

[cdona]

I have been listening to many comments about the cost of racing and the costs of FF.FF was never meant to be no cost class just a low cost class and it is.You may be able to run a Showroom stock car or other low cost class cheaper but look at the differences.FF is a real race car that you can learn to drive,learn about the motor and service it yourself.Think how much a rebuild will be on anything Spec (designed to be low cost racing)and you cannot rebuild-repair it yourself.You will have to send it to the proprietary builder,if you decide to repair a broken wishbone you can't do that either.The point is that FF allows you to set the price somewhat based on what you are willing to repair-rebuild yourself.Few classes that offer so much will be cheaper to own or maintain.Mr.Lola 342,I understand you have not raced much and are not very experienced.I don't think the reality has hit home with you about Road Racing.Track time is expensive whether it be a santioned race or a practice day.Real tracks have to charge real money to offer the facility.SCCA has the best racing insurance around for you the competitor or your crew members.All these things cost money.I don't like paying $250.00 for entry fee anymore than the next guy but it is the reality of the times and no one I know is getting rich putting on races except maybe the guys selling Spec cars.
Racing is and has always been a story of the haves and have nots.Money rules the sport and always will.Anyone who thinks there exists a level playing field in racing is fooling himself.The playing can always be level with money because it will buy all that is necessary to win.But if you want to compete and your pockets are not full of money do what I have done and work 12 hours a day 11 months a year so you can race.I have done it since 1985 and I have fun and I don't spend as much as most of my competitors but I don't complain about things that I cannot control.

[dc]

Who said racing was supposed to be cheap? There's always RC cars if you can't bite off the real ones. ;)

[Walter Renna]

Chris, I would have to agree with sticking it out. I'm in a similar situation. A year ago I bought a tired V-D and have been re-building it. After checking prices on pro rebuilds, I decided I'm going to freshen it up Myself this winter. Most of the specialty tools (mic's, etc.) I'll borrow from work. I also saved alot doing it the "cheap" way. Painted the a-arms instead of plating, etc. I would love to have a mint car also, but I try to concentrate on what will get me to the track reliably and safely. I plan to hit the track next spring. Good Luck!
Steve

[ThinkFast]

Chris,
I've also followed your saga to complete your car and your feelings are very much in line with my own. This is my first year racing and although I had some car prep experience going in, there is still a lot to learn. I had a low oil pressure problem and after taking the bottom end apart, I couldn't find the problem. I decided that although a pro builder is expensive, they get paid for their experience.
I decided to learn about the cars' setup this year and pay for the pro's experience for the engine. I was also becoming overwhelmed by the number of things involved in getting a car from being a roller to a racer but thanks to the help I got on FFU, I've kept at it and now have a whopping 4 races under my belt.
The bottom line for me was that it was worth saving money to pay for a pro engine (I emphasized my need for reliability, not ultimate HP). Now I can go to the track without worrying too much about the motor. Sure, I missed a few events while saving money for the motor but I think I made the best decision for my long term racing goals.
Bottom line for me was that I'm the only one working on the car so I need to focus my attention on what I know best and can learn quickest. It'll be many years before I'll know as much as Todd or Mike or any of the others have already forgotten but I just try to do the best I can, one day and one project at a time.
Garey

[El Guapo]

Chris, stay with it! There's a lot of talk but your investment is safe. You are going through similar circumstances that I have. Things are going to go wrong, but the challenge is to learn and find out WHY things went wrong and then add that to your knowledge and prep skills so it doesn't happen again. This is my 3rd year at this (cars), and I've sometimes became so frustrated I wanted to go back to motorcycles. But have kept at it and I see the smoke clearing and am starting to get confidence I can outmart the mechanical demons with good preparation and forethought. The Kent has many problems in my opinion, but you can beat them back to a minimum and enjoy the satisfation of prepping and driving a REAL race car. It's all part of learning to be good at racing, and FF is an excellent place to learn how to do everything right. This is NOT just a driver's class!

[P Calhoun]

Hey Mike Sauce,

I can go to Buttonwillow and get 5 hours of track time on a Friday for $100. I don't even need a competition license to do so. You said track time is expensive, where do you live?

I could meet with several FF guys next Friday and have the cheapest enduro going.

[cdona]

You may can get cheap track time but don;t forget the costs of fuel,motor,tires and all the necessary things you need.I don't suspect that $100.00 for 5 hours of track time is sanctioned races,safety personel,passing in corners etc.If you get all those things including the costs of the car you have found the motherlode.You I suspect are not from the same generation as I and you probably expect to know more and work less.I think that motor racing is a serious sport that should be taken seriously so I choose to use the proper safety equipment with safety personel and I have fun testing myself.SCCA is not without it's problems.Some can be solved and some can't.I just think that your problems with the SCCA are not going to be solved in this thread.Drive your FF when you can and market yourself.These days the guys that make it in the sport are sometimes better at marketing than they are at driving.Both those skills are necessary in todays world of motorsports.

[Jeff Smith]

Chris,
Dont give up. As mentioned by the others you have done a wonderful job on your car. It has been interesting and educational as well to observe from afar. My personal opinion is to put together a mule engine and get out and drive. The last little bit of horsepower isnt needed now. Save back some money so at the end of next season (or when the right deal comes alon) you can purtchase another engine and send it out to be built by a pro. That way you havew a good reliable back up as well as a screamer.
Good Luck,
John :D

[Aiken Racing]

Thanks everyone for the comments!

All your postive attitudes have changed how I feel on this subject and I'm sticking with it. I told my friend at work to bring in his engine stand and I'm going to take apart the engine asap.

Question: What part of the engine do the professional rebuilders spend most of their time making the HP? I assume in the head area but I'm not an engine builder.

I talked to the previous owner and I figured out what happened to my motor. He said before he sold the car to me he purchased a head from Farley engines and the previous owner did the rest. He said he put new rings and bearings in. He said the engine sat a while before selling it to me and I had it a year before starting he. He said that he thought I was going to take the engine apart before starting it to freshen it up. He said that when an engine sits for a while that the oil has a chemical reaction with the bearings and he said I probably spun a bearing.

Hopefully I will just have to turn the crank, install new bearings, new gaskets and a way we will go! If the problem was the engine sitting for a while, would the oil pressure problem of creeped up at the 2nd autocross? or would it happen right away?

Thanks everyone!
Chris

[J STAZ]

Chris -- I've never heard of oil eating up a bearing. FWIW, one thing you could do, if you don't want to do the motor work yourself, is take it to a local machine shop and have them do the bottom end. Turning the crank and new bearings shouldn't be that great an expense. Take along Jake's book in case they need to look at other parts of the motor.

Bill

[Ferris11]

Chris,

yea, .. sounds like a trip to the local machine shop for a bottom end rebuild will do, ..
Turn the crank, bearings, rings, hone cylinders, .. shouldn't be much over $600 or $700, ..

It sounds like you have a good head, .. but if you need some work on it or the intake manifold, ..
to find that power I can help you out at a very reasonable cost. I port heads and have a computerized
Superflow flow bench.

Curtis
vector FF

[DENIS]

I agree. In your case, pull it out, take off the head and pan then , have a look-see.

Then take it immediately to a small shop for their opinion. What I don't see is you taking it all apart and doing it yourself. Why not? Because despite the work you put into the car to now you are going to find yourself way over your head in this one. Not that you cannot do it, but rather that you will OVER do it and then find yourself right back here again with a large bill, and asking questions abou things in Jakes book etc. that are simply overkill for what you need.

Hope you can follow that comment.

Have them simply check out the craank, prep it some if needed, replace the bearings, and do the simplest assembly needed. That's all. Get it in the car and drive. If you chase every gram, fix everything else "just because I was in there" this thing will spiral out of control on you.

[markD]

Chris, stick with it you will have a blast once you sort things out. You are ahead of most due to your experience putting your car together. Find someone in your area like John who has been building their own engines for years and have them assist you. You won't win the poll at a national event buy you will have a motor that runs good and lasts. The important thing now is to get some seat time and believe me, anytime on the track is fun and educational. Rex Gunning has been building my engines for years, they last and they are competitive in my regional events. Make sure you pay particular attention to your dry sump pump, often times this is overlooked when rebuilding the motor and you have insufficient pressure and volume leading to spun bearings. Hang in there you will love it!

[H82BSLO]

Chris:

Make sure you hang long enough to try it out for a season. If you don't have some highs, it may not be worth the lows. But, the highs, they are high! If you are having trouble at the track, you will find all kinds of other racers willing to help get you out there. That in itself is one of the highs. Good luck!

[zcar72]

Chris:
I too had an engine problem with my used Pro built motor, Loyning, and put a rock through the oil filter (don't ask) causing loss of oil pressure and three spun rod bearings and one spun main bearing. I had to turn the crank and all new bearings, rings and re-balance. It cost about $650 total and the engine now produces the same power it did before the excitement. It does not have to cost a bunch if you have Jake's book and do the assembly yourself

[jon baytos]

I have been reading the comments that everyone has been making about this topic and I am a few steps behind Chris. I am a former ITA racer who ended up getting married and having kids. I had to sell my car to help make ends meet. Now I find myself in a situation where I can get back behind the wheel. I got into IT for cheap. I had a very reliable Honda to race. It rarely needed anything and I was having a blast. All my buddies have been racing FF and now my dilema is to decide if FF or IT is the way to go. I hear all the comments about expense. Racing is expensive. I spent about 8000 on my CRX over three years. I then get a job with Kelly-Moss Motorsports and really see some money spent on cars. Some may say that SCCA is too expensive. Well then don't race. It is just that simple. If you don't have the funds, then don't do it. It is like complaining that crack is too expensive. I could not afford to race with the group of people that I wanted to race with, could not afford to take my car to the shop that I wanted to. If I wrecked my car, I was screwed. Now I look to FF1600 to give me some direction. There are a lot of good people in this class and that is why I am leaning toward FF(the cars might have something to do with it too) I am looking for a solid beginner car. I am not worried about qualifying for the Run-offs my first time out. I am looking for car to get my feet wet, see if I like the cars. Can you guys give me any input? I have looked at the classifieds and have been contemplating the 87 EuroSwift and the 88 VD. I have some close friends who run this class as well who have been helpful. Any other input would be appreciated.

Rick Mitchell
formerly #94

[Aiken Racing]

Here's an interesting quote I found in the latest sports car magazine (Oct 2002) that I'm sure others have read:

Quote start talking about the DSR cars on page 26:

"People just love the way they look", says Richard Leslie, who with his son run a competition prep shp in Waymart, PA. The shop is also a Radical dealership and the younger Leslie finished second in the DSR race at the 2001 runoffs.

Leslie said that last season his son raced a new Formula Ford and a new Radical, and when the season was over the DSR costs about 1/3 of what was spent on the ford.

"The parts are cheaper, and the maintenance is only a fraction of the costs and the engine lasts a full season".

End quote.

I have no problem with spending a lot of money in racing as I have in the past year. I bet I have put 15k into my car. Now sure I could have just saved it and bought a new car totally done but I would have learned nothing met all the great people in FF.

I don't have any problem with spending over $2,000 on shocks as I did or $1800 for a dash. I know that the money is well spent as they are quality pieces and I can see where the money is going. What I do have a problem with is the price the professional rebuilders charge for a rebuild. The price that is spent to get 115hp is insane and that HP could be obtained though ways that the rules don't allow. The ways to obtain that HP cheap also have benefits that could lengthen the life of the engine. Sure I don't need a national rebuild on my engine to compete at a regional level but you still can't ignore the price others are paying. Sure the top drivers may have loads of money to throw around but I don't see how they can justify $8,000 on a basically tweaked stock engine. Other car classes would love to see $8,000 for an engine rebuild but few series have engines as simple and non-technologically advanced as ours. Things that make other engine series expensive are not even allowed in ours. I’m going to be rebuilding my engine cheap now but that’s beside the point.

Now there are awesome drivers out there in the regional level that if given the right amount of money could make the runoffs. So why not give those who don't have that sort a money a chance with the big dogs? The problem is that talent isn't the driving factor for championships.. it's money.

I'm not saying that racing is cheap or even should be but I'm just tired of watching all the rich kids with their parents money win races and move up into bigger series. I know a lot of you enjoy it here and that's where you want to stay but wouldn't it be nice to get into the spotlight from time to time without having to spent your whole life savings?

Maybe my arguments are a little extreme but sometimes you have to be a little controversial to make your point known.

I love FF and the cars and I haven't blinked twice about spending money on it except when it came to the engine. Formula Vee has similar problems and they are limited also too be rules which make their engines skyrocket too. SCCA is introducing a new Formula Vee class with 1600cc engines and new chassis designs.

With a few rule changes we all could be playing on a more level playing field though those with the money will object because they know their money is the driving factor for winning races and do make others more equal for a lower price would seem to be a threat to their performance.

Racing used to be about pushing the envelope…. Now it’s about stuff the envelope.

Chris

[Richard Pare]

Chris

I've fully enjoyed your saga of joining the racing ranks. You made it pretty successfully through the journey of restoring your car and if the pictures are any indicator, did a very nice job of it. Now the on track learning starts and it can be frustrating and sometimes expensive but always instructive.

When we started racing we were constantly flailing in the pits between on track opportunities and often didn't make it. But we worked at learning the car and invested heavily in preparation time. Last year we made it on track for 63 out of 64 opportunities and this year we are hitting 100%. I can't say we are 100% for finishing every session, but we generally beat the tow truck in on most of them.

Hang in there and listen to Todd. He's giving you very good advice about striking a good balance between going full bore with a pro engine builder and beating your brains out in your own garage.

Stay the course-the fun is just around the corner!

Dan

[size="1"][ September 15, 2002, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: Dan Schmutte ][/size]

[Greg]

To RCB Motorsports -- There's quite a "thrill" difference between IT and FF - once you do FF, you'll never go back! I have a DB-1 and my wife has an ITB car (she's more comfortable with fenders!)that I occasionally drive - it's like wrestling a pig and I'm always glad to be back in the DB-1. Yea, the DB-1 costs me more than 5 times the IT to run, but it's worth the rush!

As for what car to buy, get some input on availability of suspension parts - you'll need them sooner or later! I have a friend with a CFC (2liter) Euroswift and parts are not as easy to come by as some other chassis like the Swift (USA version) and VD. With the DB-1, I can have most suspension pieces on my doorstep 2 days after I order them.

[Ravemotorsports]

I have a question for Chris More. Are you being quoted $8000 for a Kent rebuild, as suggested by your message? I know those prices do exist for the fabled runoffs engine that is good for ~ 3 hours. What are you expecting to pay for an engine that will last for a 12 race season or more of competitive regional racing?

FYI - My costs from a nationally recognized builder have never been more than $2500 for an engine that dynos at 112 hp. I've got 15 race weekends on this engine and after freshening the head I get leakdowns of only 6% to 8.5%.

[M Wheeler]

I feel it is incumbent on the SCCA should be honest with itself and side up to all the lower and middle income younger drivers who want to have a chance at a pro formula driving career and steer them away from the club. Unless they have a silver spoon in their mouth the SCCA is not the place for them to get recognized in their early driving years when getting the most out of their driving $ is most critical.

This proves itself time and time again since the current ranks of INDY Lights and other ladder series are only full of kids living off Dad’s trust fund. This may even be the reason why there are no good US drivers in the F1 series since there is no ladder series in the US to draw from the a very broad spectrum of the masses. (This is the British way of doing things and maybe why they are a second rate nation.)

I have nothing against the SCCA or anyone born with a silver spoon in their mouth, the SCCA has its place, but I cannot help thinking that the most of next US drivers champions may actually be stuck in the depths of the SCCA with no way to break out due to the slow-to-change rules that support $6000 race engines, $25000 chassis, $3000 shocks etc to be competitive.

Other organizations are springing up lie RCCA and NASA, but these are more a testament of the current dysfunctional system than anything. They are no more a seeding ground that the SCCA.

The SCCA should be honest with these kids by telling them that the club is really a quasi Walter Mitty organization and that if their last name is not Andretti or Unser, etc, that they really are not efficiently getting the most out of their money and that they should look elsewhere since the SCCA has never been recognized by the US professional teams as having a driver development ladder series.

You know the one’s I am talking about, the kids right out of engineering school with more heart and ambition than money who scrape up enough $ to go buy an old FF and drag it to the track on an open trailer behind a pickup truck. Might even be that kid who couldn’t afford to go to college who works behind the counter at the local parts store who races his RX-7. They last only a season or two and are written off by the older drivers as being a rookie with no talent anyway.

Funny thing is Danny Sullivan was one of these drivers. Dragged his FF on an open wheel trailer behind an old van for ten years. He was smart enough to go to England to race FF. Schumacher started in a g-cart his dad made for him then raced Europe FF while he worked as a mechanic. Mario was a truck driver before he started racing and the Unser’s had no silver spoons in their mouths. Others include Rick Mears, AJ, and on and on.

Michael Schumacher was interviewed on one of the prime time news stations about a month ago where he very poignantly stated that US drivers are not up to par with European drivers. He said that even Micahel A. couldn’t make the cut in Europe and gave up. He said that all the second tier F1 drivers currently migrate to the US to race INDY when their F1 careers go away.

Essentially he told all US driver “come and get me’.

The US Grand Prix will be held at Indy this year. Will there be any US drivers in the field?

Suggestion: How about the US SCCA have a FF class with British rules(treaded tires, steel rims, etc.) so that we could send the US champion(s) to the European championships each year to kick some butt over there? They would get exposure for a F3 ride. Using British rules means that US drivers could use their same car and go over there to race without having to buy a ride. Maybe even alternate the World FF championship between the US and Europe every other year.