Delta Wing at Le Mans?

[John Merriman]

Speaking to Richard's point above, it might be wise for the SCCA to take the initiative and actually create a class which has rules specifically based on the pursuit of efficiency - in both the use of materials and consumption of energy. It would present a whole new challenge to club racers and might prove to be very appealing to the young people that we've talking about engaging in our sport. It would also be a welcome redirection from the current trend in all forms of racing - including CLUB RACING - which seem concentrated on and dedicated to cars, components and technologies which are MORE EXPENSIVE, MORE EXOTIC and MORE COMPLEX.

[R. Pare]

Hmmmmmm.... Light weight, simple, efficient....

Sounds suspiciously like Formula Ford......

Or even the Lotus Super Seven........

[Scott Gesford]

[QUOTE=DFR Dave Freitas;348936]It's the Danica Patrick of cars- not as good as it's fans think it is and not as bad as the haters think it is.

That's actually quite good.

[Brands]

Good points, Ian. The "problem" with LM in my opinion is that it's become ossified into a too narrow range of classes: hyper-expensive prototypes on the one hand, and spec P-cars on the other (with a few oddballs thrown in for variety.

As much as I love prototypes, I would like LM more if it reverted to something more like its original purpose -- a showcase for actual road cars. You know, like...

Spec-B cars - 1.5 liter, four seat econoboxes like Mazda 3, VW Polo, Fit, Yaris, etc.

Touring cars - 4 doors, 2 liters

Sports cars - 2 seats, 2 liters, open tops

Grand Touring cars - P-cars, Corvettes, etc.

Yeah, I know. I'll wake up from my after-lunch nap any minute now!



PS - Dang it...as usual I am a dollar short and 9 minutes late!

Ah, but would you re-write history so that the Porsche 917, 962, Sauber Mercedes, Mazda 787, Peugeot 905 etc etc never existed?

[Chris Livengood]

Well as much as I dislike the machine itself as a racer I feel really bad for the Delta Wing crew for what was a real shame of an accident that put them out.

For those who haven't seen the footage of Motoyama, the driver of the Delta Wing at the time of the crash, attempting to get the car back to the pits to avoid retirement here it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJylUpzQ-iQ

FYI, It's pretty heartbreaking footage, but it's a great example of the emotion and passion that auto racing brings out of people.

[Tiago Santos]

Taken out by a gas guzzler! Gosh darn it!

[Stan Clayton]

Ah, but would you re-write history so that the Porsche 917, 962, Sauber Mercedes, Mazda 787, Peugeot 905 etc etc never existed?

Not at all. Though I could make an exception for the Lola B2K/10.

[rickb99]

Well as much as I dislike the machine itself as a racer I feel really bad for the Delta Wing crew for what was a real shame of an accident that put them out.......

Yes that was one of those terrible 'no excuses' deals for sure as was the Ferrari taking the Toyota out... Grrrr.

But the most fascinating thing I heard during the Le Mans coverage was.. it cost $50,000 EURO's to enter the Le Mans race and the winner gets... gets... $48,000 EURO's.....

LOL you race Le Mans for the pure passion for motor sports.. NOT for money!!!

[R. Pare]

Did anyone get a list of comparative lap times?

[Rennie Clayton]

Did anyone get a list of comparative lap times?

The results are available right on the Le Mans website.


Cheers,
Rennie

[R. Pare]

Found it just after posting.

Not bad lap times for the DW, actually, but nothing that could not be done by other, less "weird" means as well.

[ianashdown]

a conventional car had some of the trick bits that they are not allowed, such as the diff.

How fast could they go then?

This really is a solution looking for problem!

Ian

[T644HU05]

Did anyone see the annual Henri Pescarolo whine about not being able to compete? How can that guy continue to get sponsors when every year on international tv he claims he can't compete with the factory teams. He should give seminars on getting sponsors.

[R. Pare]

Take almost any "conventional" layout, run the same weight as the DW, reduce the drag coefficient to the same, and run a decent engine with the same HP, and it would run about the same, if not actually faster, with the same fuel consumption.

Take a car along the lines of the Mercedes C111-111, cut it's weight down to that of the DW ( original weight was nearly 2450 pounds, and the streamliner wasn't that much lighter), with the same .191 Cfd, and a bit more hp than the 215 that the Merc had to help off-corner acceleration, and with that long straight at Le Mans, it would probably run faster with half the fuel consumption - the C111-111 got 14.7 mpg at speeds of 195+, so the 2.5 that the DW is getting is pitiful in comparison.

So the DW proved what? That basic physics works?

[T644HU05]

The results are available right on the Le Mans website.


Cheers,
Rennie

Did you catch the name of the official timeskeeper?

[starkejt]

So the DW proved what? That basic physics works?

I think it also proved that many people who sign checks don't understand those basic phyics.

[Dennis Valet]

Why are so many people so desperate to see this car marginalized? You say that it can be done by other means - well maybe we'll see it in 2014 when the rules are changed to promote efficiency. As it stands now, this is the only car doing something radically different. While the hybrid cars are nice, they aren't radical thinking.

"well if I do this and then this and then this...."

We could hypothesize all day about what other cars would run; however, those cars don't exist. This one does. Someone took the time and money to put this idea into practice, and I'm happy that it had a very successful debut. I'm not going to reach into the land of make believe and assumption in order to find faults with it. I'm going to enjoy the engineering experiment that was the Delta Wing.

[ianashdown]

In Racing we all run to a set of rules. The delta wing, whilst clearly inovative, was able to run to a unique set of rules.

True innovation would have been to something exceptional within the framework that everyone else had to work within.

[Stan Clayton]

Why are so many people so desperate to see this car marginalized? You say that it can be done by other means - well maybe we'll see it in 2014 when the rules are changed to promote efficiency. As it stands now, this is the only car doing something radically different. While the hybrid cars are nice, they aren't radical thinking.

"well if I do this and then this and then this...."

We could hypothesize all day about what other cars would run; however, those cars don't exist. This one does. Someone took the time and money to put this idea into practice, and I'm happy that it had a very successful debut. I'm not going to reach into the land of make believe and assumption in order to find faults with it. I'm going to enjoy the engineering experiment that was the Delta Wing.

Thank you, Dennis...exactly my thoughts!

[EACIII]

What lap did the Delta Wing go out on? I had 47 in the Lime Rock contest, I think I may have been close.

Ed

[Rennie Clayton]

Did you catch the name of the official timeskeeper?

Well played, ACO. Well played.


Cheers,
Rennie

[rickb99]

Actually, in terms of lap times and overall performance of the DW.....

They interviewed Dan Gurney by phone shortly after the DW was taken out, even he said .... HE was rather disappointed at it's performance. HE THOUGHT it was further up the development curve then it turned out to be.

Will it run again? He didn't have a FIRM yes or no.

[R. Pare]

Why are so many people so desperate to see this car marginalized? You say that it can be done by other means - well maybe we'll see it in 2014 when the rules are changed to promote efficiency. As it stands now, this is the only car doing something radically different. While the hybrid cars are nice, they aren't radical thinking.

"well if I do this and then this and then this...."

We could hypothesize all day about what other cars would run; however, those cars don't exist. This one does. Someone took the time and money to put this idea into practice, and I'm happy that it had a very successful debut. I'm not going to reach into the land of make believe and assumption in order to find faults with it. I'm going to enjoy the engineering experiment that was the Delta Wing.

And that is the issue - the DW is not the great groundbreaking design that the media is having fun hyping. To an engineers mind, it is an easily calculable outcome of what can be done when you do not have to abide by any rules. It exists in its current form solely because Ben did not have to abide by any class rules and could play as he wanted.

What may or will be seen next year will again depend almost entirely on what the final rules structure is - never mind the capacity of the brains behind each effort.

[ianashdown]

they will be cars designed and built to a set of rules, not a set of rules designed to a car!

[R. Pare]

True. It would be most interesting if they just went with no rules at all besides certain minimum safety specs. THEN you might see some actual groundbreaking being done.

[Dennis Valet]

The Delta Wing engineers exist in the same universe as every other engineer. They all could have done the same thing, but I don't see anyone but Delta Wing making something unique. They didn't explicitly design this car to be faster than a current LMP1 car. They designed it to replace the old Indy Car. When it didn't work, they decided to enter it in the 24 hours of Le Mans as an example of what different design philosophy can accomplish. Maybe if their original goal was to beat LMP1 cars at Le Mans, all of your theories would be correct and we could say "well, they broke the rules, of course the car did well."

Everyone relies on this torque vectoring theory without any proof. It's all assumption. You don't know what the car will do without it, if it even is running it.

One thing I do enjoy, is how the discussion has shifted from "It wont' turn" to "whatever, it broke the rules"

Anyway, I don't want to argue. That's my 2 cents on the situation.

[R. Pare]

The Delta Wing engineers exist in the same universe as every other engineer. They all could have done the same thing, but I don't see anyone but Delta Wing making something unique.

Ben was lucky in that the IRL was looking for a new car, and he was employed and backed by Ganassi. Everyone else (engineers for teams outside of the IRL) is working for companies and teams that are contesting specific rule sets. - even the X-Prize guys.



No shift at all that I can see from most people. What we haven't seen yet is section time comparisons - what is it losing/gaining in the corners, what is it losing/gaining on the long straight, what is it losing/gaining in acceleration? Only then can an analysis be made in relative performance since we do not have the design specs to play with in simulators.

Regardless of what the philosophy is/was behind the design, the performance still has to obey the same physics laws that everyone else has to obey, therefor the performance is mathematically quantifiable down to the fraction of a second, and any decently experienced engineer can do some quick off the cuff guesstimates as to its performance. My guess was 20 or so seconds off of an LMP1, and I was slow by about 2 seconds. When taking track length into account, that is about the difference between a D-Sports or FA and an FE at Road America (if I remember my lap time for those classes correctly!). HUGE difference in ultimate performance.

What the engineers here are grousing about is the over-hyped "groundbreaking" and "revolutionary" monikers that have been attached, 'cause it ain't no such thing.

[Rick Kean]

... seems to have been initially invited to be this year's Garage56 entrant, but the ACO passed them over for the DW. The ACO, now perplexed, wonders why no one else applied.
http://green.autoblog.com/2011/06/16...-le-mans-2012/ Pau is a wee-tight

Apparently torque-vectoring differentials are green racer de rigueur

[T644HU05]

<snip> What we haven't seen yet is section time comparisons - what is it losing/gaining in the corners, what is it losing/gaining on the long straight, what is it losing/gaining in acceleration? Only then can an analysis be made in relative performance since we do not have the design specs to play with in simulators.

<snip>

Not quite true. The results sheets link provided above does show "best specific sector times" and some other tidbits.

T6 = 36th
T7 = 29th
Porsche = 31st
Ford = 49th
T6+T7 = 31st

Fastest Average Top speed = 22nd
Fastest Top Speed = 15th

[R. Pare]

OK - I hadn't seen that chart yet. However, if all it gives is relative position (not actual time or speed), then it is useless in making any determinations. If it gives speed (most charts like that do), AND you sit down with a detailed track map, then you can start making decent comparisons to see where the performance differences are.

[10rmotor]

Actually, in terms of lap times and overall performance of the DW.....

They interviewed Dan Gurney by phone shortly after the DW was taken out, even he said .... HE was rather disappointed at it's performance. HE THOUGHT it was further up the development curve then it turned out to be.

Will it run again? He didn't have a FIRM yes or no.

Rick

I think Dan Gurney was referencing the state of the car before him and his team got on board with the project.

[Tiago Santos]

OK - I hadn't seen that chart yet. However, if all it gives is relative position (not actual time or speed), then it is useless in making any determinations. If it gives speed (most charts like that do), AND you sit down with a detailed track map, then you can start making decent comparisons to see where the performance differences are.

You calculated the lap time of this thing with less than a 1% error, so I'm sure you know exactly what it was doing and where!

[R. Pare]

You calculated the lap time of this thing with less than a 1% error, so I'm sure you know exactly what it was doing and where!

Really just a lucky guess based on what little public info there was, and very much a guess- I could only wish I were that good!

[SEComposites]

A little bit off topic, but the fastest car at Le Mans last weekend? Sauber C9!

[John Merriman]

Where is the info on the SAUBER C9 speed found?

Also, does anyone know where I can find info on the NISSAN V6 engines that are used in many of the P2 cars? RACE ENGINE TECHNOLOGY may have it in some back issues but can't seem to find anything on the web.

[Mark_Silverberg]

The P2 cars use a 4.5L V8 Engine code VK45DE

Zytek claims they did the development and have some specs on their page.

http://www.zytekmotorsport.co.uk/zyt...ngines/vk45de/

[RussMcB]

The Delta Wing team stayed after Petit LeMans and did an interesting 15 minute video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=c_INdbXMqsw

[Rick Kean]

The Delta Wing team stayed after Petit LeMans and did an interesting 15 minute video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=c_INdbXMqsw

Thanks for the link Russ

[Tiago Santos]

Russ, you promised a 15 minute video and I only got 14. I demand to be entertained for an extra 60 seconds!

Thanks for posting that, cool video. It amazes me the flak these guys have to endure, but I'm glad to see how excited they still are about the project.

[Brakeguy1]

For all the admirers and haters of the Deltawing,

After spending 7 days at Petit LeMans I can say the Deltawing was far more effective than the "haters" would have given it credit for and surprised and delighted the admirers and fans even more.

Had the car been classified as a say LMP2, it would have had maybe 9 wave around during cautions. I think it was 3rd in the least amount of time spent in the pits. Think of what position the Deltawing would placed with that simple race control practice been implemented.

The below link is a video taken after the Petit LeMans where the car finished 5th overall. In qualifying, the LMP2 Pole was a 1:13.2, Deltawing was a 1:13.8 after missing a day for repairs. It used just 3 carsets of tires for the 1000 miles, and less than .4mm of total wear on the PFC low drag carbon brakes. Going into turn 10a the car was doing -3.44G @75bar stops.

http://www.pistonheads.com/news/defa...ber_181032912;

You will finally get a nice walk around the car with Ben Bowlby and you can see, especially the rear of the car, it shares more with a F2000 car than it does with any LMP. Look at the tube substructure bolted to the carbon tub and the tubular wishbones.

No one will argue the car is very counter intuitive but after Petit, no one should argue wither the car is effective, durable or if done from a commercial standpoint could be built and sold for about what a fully dressed modern F3 would go for as opposed to a full LMP2 car.

I must admit my own personal journey with this car had it's challenges (especially when trying to justify the project to the my company president!) but when the data started to show what the car capabilities were especially at place like Road Atlanta after the 1st 1000 miles of testing, it was quite gratifying and very cool indeed.

Darrick Dong
Director of Motorsports
PFC Brakes