March 783

[Chris Robson]

...I moved my request to here so I would "Hi-Jack" any more threads...

I have a March 783, -(not a 79FSV). My chassis is #026, one of only 11 total F3 cars produced during 1978. They did not make a FSV in 78, rather they sent over two 783 F3 cars minus any components required by the series (engine mounts, calipers, gearbox adapters, etc...). From what I can gather, these two cars were the "mule's" used to evaluate competitiveness of the chassis in the US FSV series and create the VW FSV "kit"or 1979. I am not sure if Dennis drove, one or both of the chassis'. I believe that the cars did not run until mid-season. The car was entered by either Wilbur Bunce, or Mike Rogers.

Also, I have no knowledge of what happened to the car, or who drove them during the 1979 and 1980 series, but one was retained and used during the first half of the 1979 campaign. I do know that the car was last raced in '81 at "Mike Hull Racing" (the Mike Hull, of Target Chip Ganassi Racing) and then "stored" in the rafters of a shop until 2004.

If anyone has contact for the above mentioned people, especially Mr. Firestone, I would greatly appreciate an introduction, so I can try to piece together the history of my car.

Thank you in advance for your assistance.

Chris

[Brad Ellingson]

Chris,

Dennis owns KKW Trucking in Pomona, CA. I would try dfirestone@kkwtrucks.com. If that doesn't work you could always use the generic info@ email address...I am sure it would get to him.

Brad

[Lola_T360]

Chris

I've got the March build records for 783s and you are right that there wasn't a separate FSV model.
However, there are nine built as FSV of which five are sold in Europe and four to Wilbur Bunce for US

The first two cars to ship are chassis #20, sent 31 Jan 1978 and #7, sent 25 Feb.
#26 is sent out 8 May and finally #27 on 24 May.

The first 783 to appear in 1978 SV is Firestone at Trenton 23 April, so this must be #7 or #20, though there's no reason why Firestone might not have run #26 later in the season

If your car was run by Mike Hull in 1981 it was probably the car used by Jerrill Rice in both that season and 1980

I can dig out the Rice results for 80-81 if you want

Chris

[Chris Robson]

Hi Chris,

I would love to see what you have. The only information I have been able to gather has been from the folks at Marchves.com. They provided the delivery and production numbers, but if you have number and delivery dates for specific cars, that would certainly be much more concrete evidence. I would like to get a real idea of who's car I have, as I want to present it in it's correct livery. Thanks to Brad I have made contact with Dennis Firestone. He was very helpful along with being very interested, as he is currently restoring his championship car from 1979. He seemed to remember two cars coming over, but it was a long time ago. Also, any light you could shed on whom drove the car in 1979 would be fantastic. The car still carries Jerrill Rice's name on the side and Hull Motorsports on the wing from 1981.

Chris

[Lola_T360]

Chris

Here are results I have for Rice with March 783

Minneapolis 23 Aug 80, 17th Retired 52 laps
Minneapolis 24 Aug 80, 9th on lap down after penalty
Ontario Motor Speedway, 31 Aug 80, 21st
Charlotte, 17 May 81, DNS
Milwaukee, 7 June 81, 10th, on lead lap
Riverside, 4 October 81, 8th, on lead lap

1980 records are far from complete and Rice might have run a couple more races late in that season.
Also, I don't know if he ran Californian SCCA events with the car - if anyone reading this has programmes, results sheets, entry lists or SCCA Cal Club magazines with race reports from the 1970s or 1980s PLEASE get in touch - we want to put SCCA single seaters onto www.oldracingcars.com, as an extension of our Atlantic/SV research but urgently need more documents.

March 783 chassis #26 is listed in the works records as built with white bodywork as an FSV conversion, and left the factory 8 May 1978, to Wilbur Bunce Racing. Original tub for the car was stamped 78M84 - on other Marches of the time this is on the tub under the roll hoop

Chris

[Chris Robson]

I have made contact with Dennis Firestone and he has been tremendously helpful. He, inturn, contacted Wilbur Bunce and we are now starting to piece together the 1978 season. Below is the email I received from Wilbur. I hope this sheds some more light on the season. His account of 1978 helps to explain about the "4" cars shipped to the US, as it appears one was written off early on during the season.



Hello Dennis and Chris;

I will try and help with information on the 1978 March FSV.

There were Four kits purchased from March Engineering (F3/FSV)

These kits were only sold to David Rogers and Bunce Engineering (Wilbur Bunce).

Yes; David Rogers and I went to England and met with March (David Reeves and Robin Herd).

We left England and went to the Auto Show in Germany; Where we saw the following FSV/Water cooled cars offered for 1978; Argo, Lola, Ralt RT1 another one or two Built in Europe and the March FSV/F3 car converted from F3 to FSV by Marcus Hotz (The European March Distributor).

I was not impressed by any of them! I felt that the March had the best potential for David Rogers and Myself.

So David Retuned home and I went back to England to work the best deal for us possible!

I met with David Reeves and Robin Herd and discussed a FSV project. They wanted us to buy them thru their European agent (Marcus Hotz). I did not agree with the way the conversion was done and discussed my ideas With Robin Herd. ( I had worked with the March FB and Atlantic Cars 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1976 and 1977!
Very successful with Bob Lazier, Denis Firestone and others. I felt that what we wanted to do retained the original Design as well as added new ideas and innovations for David Rogers Racing and Wilbur Bunce than had been accomplished by the European Team.

Robin Herd and David Reeves agreed and we worked out the details for our purchase.

The Kit was made up of any parts that I wanted from March Engineering;
The following were F3 Components.
Front Nose and Support, Rear Wing, Engine Bay Frames; Transaxles (no Limited Slips), Rear Suspension complete with Koni double adjustable Dampers, Front Suspension Complete F3 with Koni double adjustable Dampers

Wheels were assembled from parts for rear 8" specs. we had front ones made 6" specs

Tub was F2 for the Kits and Formula Atlantic for the replacement tubs (The difference being that there was a deformable structure attached to the side of the F2 Tubs for driver protection.

We used the Formula / F2 Cockpit and windshield and the Side pods. Also the water lines and the Radiator were Atlantic.


We had to fit engines ourselves; meaning we machined the engine to transaxle adapter from billet and fabricated the front engine mounts.


We fitted the F2 front uprights with the VW required brakes caliper and disc. We fitted the transaxle with with the required VW brake calipers and disc.

We modified the vw drive shafts and cv's to suit our specs for the March Car

All the 1978 March FSV's were built with the engine tilted 15 degrees to the left Maximum for 1978 specs.

We later used the FA/F2 front suspension Complete for certain tracks total 2.8" wider front track

Yes! The first time the March FSV was ran was at Trenton NJ! Dennis is correct on the details of our weekend.

very disappointing as a whole but were ecstatic about our progress and the fact that we had proven that we were up to meeting the challenge of the other Manufacturers. Everyone had laughed at the size of our cars appearance! In fact it was the main section of the FA/F2 car with a smaller Nose and Rear Wing. (Spec sizes) so compared to the others skinny bodies it was large.

Since the car was so badly damage David Rogers did not want any parts used on the new car. We purchased 2 more DRR/Bunce Engineering, kits of parts.

I will try and recall the 1978 races that we attended with the March FSV;

Trenton NJ, Milwaukee Wisconsin Twice, Watkins Glen New York, Mosport Canada, Phoenix Arizona 2cd race,
Ontario Ca. Two races about one hour apart, Texas Motor Speedway College Station Texas?

I will try and find more information and the correct race dates and places in the next few weeks.

I don't know if Dennis has a picture of the 78 car in red and white; with what we sometimes referred to it as the paint job with Hockey Sticks in the paint scheme. I thought that it was one of the best looking cars of all.

Regards;

Wilbur

...so there you go... more info, more intrigue, more to follow...

Chris

[Merak]

Hi Chris,

Have you determined how many of these cars survive? I have the book "Formula Vee/Super Vee Racing, History and Chassis Engine Prep" published in 1981 and it shows a Wilber Bunce March photo titled "Wilber Bunce's March 79V sits in his shop in Anaheim waiting for the 1979 season" page 132. I was wondering if this is titled incorrectly or did he replace the 783 cars with 79V for 1979 season? Would love to see a photo of your car. Sounds like a great find.

Mike.

[Lola_T360]

Mike

783 to 793 was an easy upgrade, but Bunce bought at least three 79Vs
one for Firestone, one a spare also used by Billy Roe and one run by Jim Harvey (which Harvey maybe owned and Bunce ran)
He bought three 80Vs as well!

783 is the same series for the Super Vee and F3 car in Europe but for 1979 March built separate series for the 793 for European F3 and 79V for the Super Vee. Looks like 21 super vees built that year, with most sold in Europe.

Chris

[Merak]

Hi Chris,

I find it interesting that although F2 tubs were used the cars were still categorized as 783s. I suppose that these SVs were, however, mostly built up with F3 parts.....and as in the message from Wilber Bunce - the only difference between the F2 tub and the F3 tub was the extra crush zone or deformable structure, or is that a reference to the difference between the F2 tub and Atlantic tub? It does make the 1978 March FSV cars very interesting though - to me more so than the later official production cars.

Mike.

Mike

783 to 793 was an easy upgrade, but Bunce bought at least three 79Vs
one for Firestone, one a spare also used by Billy Roe and one run by Jim Harvey (which Harvey maybe owned and Bunce ran)
He bought three 80Vs as well!

783 is the same series for the Super Vee and F3 car in Europe but for 1979 March built separate series for the 793 for European F3 and 79V for the Super Vee. Looks like 21 super vees built that year, with most sold in Europe.

Chris

[Jim Gustafson]

I own an 83v. This tub looks as though it could pass for an F2, as it is quite large. There were 25 F2's built in '83, but no 83V's shown as being constructed, yet there were 3 in the Pro SV series that year. March was notorious for mixing & matching, and when you read about how strapped they were for cash, you get the picture.

Jim Gustafson
Visual Communications

[Chris Robson]

A quick update on my car. We have torn the car down to the tub and refurbished/repaired the Magnesium bulkheads. The tub is back together and we are now fitting the radiator and water lines. We have also made jigs for all of the suspension pieces and have made new a-arms and toe links.

One area we are deficient is the bodywork. I am missing the correct '78 side pods and also the engine cover. I have an '81 "tunnel" side pod, but need the correct flat bottom side pods. If anyone knows where I can get some, in any condition, I can make molds and produce a pair. If someone has a set and is willing to lend the pieces to us to create a mold, I will make a additional set for you. I also have a brand new '78 nose for the car, so if anyone is interested in a trade for the bodywork I need, let me know.

Chris

[Lola_T360]

I own an 83v. This tub looks as though it could pass for an F2, as it is quite large. There were 25 F2's built in '83, but no 83V's shown as being constructed, yet there were 3 in the Pro SV series that year. March was notorious for mixing & matching, and when you read about how strapped they were for cash, you get the picture.

Jim Gustafson
Visual Communications

Jim

March's records for the later SVs are confused to say the least.
There are no works records of serial numbers beyond 1980 and some of the chassis numbers have notes beside them that they became the basis for 81Vs [for European customers] and 82V-1 built for Fay Marlow out of a Wilbur Bunce car in September 1982.

My guess is that the same deal went on with the 83Vs and that they were developments of existing cars. I know you have the late Bob Tankersley's old car. He also ran an 80V in 1982, and I wonder if the 83V was a rebuild from that car

Does your car have a tub stamping anywhere, that might tell us a lot

Chris

[Jim Gustafson]

Chris, there is only a generic March tag on the car. I once owned a 73A F-5000 car back in the day, and it had no chassis tag. It was thought to be a 731 tub, the uprights were 722's etc. so this went on with March thruout their existance. I do have the original logbook for my 83v, and the logbook # is stamped on the rollbar.

Cheers,
Jim Gustafson

[Lola_T360]

Chris, there is only a generic March tag on the car. I once owned a 73A F-5000 car back in the day, and it had no chassis tag. It was thought to be a 731 tub, the uprights were 722's etc. so this went on with March thruout their existance. I do have the original logbook for my 83v, and the logbook # is stamped on the rollbar.

Cheers,
Jim Gustafson

Jim

I wasn't querying the identity of your car BTW! I know its provenance is impeccable. What there might be is a stamp either on the back of the tub, under the roll hoop, or in the front bulkhead. In theory all March tubs were stamped, whether built by Arch Motors, 1969-77, or March themselves, 1978 onwards. This should tell us the date of the tub.

Does the March plate have other numbers than the chassis number? [after 1979 March plates included a number which was the build number of the car in the year, regardless of model, and the number of the car in the register of all Marches, regardless of model and year.] The latter number is a bit meaningless, given that March were all too fond of recycling cars into next years model [The 1977 works F3 cars were built out of the works 1976 F3 cars, which had, mostly, been the 1975 works F3 cars for example] I've found several examples of two cars carrying, legitimately, the same chassis number. So when March claimed to have built their 900th car in 1980 [an 80A to Pierre Phillips] they meant about 975...but probably had no clear idea of how many they'd actually constructed.

Cheers
Chris

[Jim Gustafson]

Thanks Chris for your insight. I will have to check the locations you mentioned on the car.

Jim Gustafson

[Merak]

Thanks Chris for your insight. I will have to check the locations you mentioned on the car.

Jim Gustafson

Jim,

I was looking at your 83V and I have to say it looks very much like the 822 (bodywork at least). Yes I would think it is/was probably derived from the F2 tub.

Mike.

[Jim Gustafson]

Jim,

I was looking at your 83V and I have to say it looks very much like the 822 (bodywork at least). Yes I would think it is/was probably derived from the F2 tub.

Mike.

Yes Mike, the the 83v and 822 and 832 all look alike.

Cheers,
Jim Gustafson