"Fun One" Rip Off???

[Monte]

So I am going to need some help and also need some time to get some sh#! off my chest. I ran the Finger Lakes region "Fun One" at the Glen last year and felt that I got a little ripped off on track time as an open wheeler. I loved the event overall as there were national guys and regional guys running. All in all a great group. We had over 30 cars in our run group. But still, we got a 7 lap race on Saturday. We were schelduled for 10 but as usual, open wheel got screwed. Spec Miata ran their full race with multiple full course yellows though!!Kudo's to them!!

So here it is, time to sign up for the "Fun One". I Know a number of guys racing this year and am ready to do battle. BUT, As I see on the schedule, an 8 lap or 25 min race on Saturday with a 12 min qualifier, and on Sunday, (short track) a 12 min qualifier and a 12 lap race or 22 min time.

WTF!!!! should I say it again?? WTF!!!this is such a rip off!!! Of course, by now many of you reading this far have said, "just dont go and stop bitching". But is this what it is coming to? 0 time on tracks with a 4 hour tow? This is what the SCCA really is?

I just need some guidance I guess. Where can I race and get any decent track time?
How are Nationals? I know the F2000 series but just can't afford. Is there an organization that actually gives a rats ass about the guys who show up and pay to race?
Some one give me some help here. I want to go to the Glen for more than 20 laps of racing at a double event!!!!!!

Thanks.

Chris

[Matt King]

Are those "green" flag times or total session time? That would make a difference, and if it's green flag time, it's probably pretty close to what other regions provide for track time in a double regional event. But having raced with some other groups, I do tend to agree with you about the relatively low value of many SCCA events from a $/track time perspective.

[Monte]

Ok, some one changed my 4 letter word for poopie to ****. Sorry if I cursed and spelled it out. I'm a little peeved.

[Beartrax]

Ok, some one changed my 4 letter word for poopie to ****. Sorry if I cursed and spelled it out. I'm a little peeved.

I think the forum software does it automatically. It even did it in a PM that I sent to a friend!

[TimW]

Ok, some one changed my 4 letter word for poopie to ****. Sorry if I cursed and spelled it out. I'm a little peeved.

"someone" is a software engineer somewhere in the world who added a potty mouth filter to the web application. This is common on most community message boards like this.

[Pop Chevy]

Sounds like a rip off to me ! I am thinking more and more of staying away from SCCA.
Pops

[AlanVDW]

Unfortunately it happens all the time. I had a small bore regional race at Lime Rock pissed away for a car off driver's right in Big Bend. Car was pulled way off in a place where cars rarely end up. SOMEONE wanted it moved. Why? I don't know. So we're all stuck under a double yellow and behind the pacecar while the EV's tried to get the car out and not get themselves stuck in the mud.
I, as a flagger, leave cars if in a safe enough location as to not waste a racers entry fee for a race cuz some knucklehead can't keep it on the track for the first 4 laps. Total waste of my $300 or so entry fee. I was not too happy.

[Amon]

Monte / Chris:

I had considered making the 6 hour trek from Ohio but after reading the schedule,
I feel the same way as yourself and won't bother! I'm also worried about the Nascar
"full course" yellows that seem to dramatically shorten the races. Unless the SCCA
convinces WGI to change their ways about track time under green, it's hard to justify
the long tow etc.....Good luck to everyone who runs.

Mark

[Dennis McCarthy]

Save up for an F2000 weekend - 3 hours of track time.

[Larry]

Take it from a long-time SCCA member, FRCCA is the answer! They race only formula cars, and they have avoided much of the over-regulation that diminishes the typical SCCA weekend while driving your costs up--and there are no Miatas running around. They operate mainly in the northeast and Mid-Atlantic, so you left coast guys are on your own.

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[Tom Valet]

On the one hand, yes, the amount of track time is pathetic. On the other hand, the Fun One has always been our favorite event whenever we have been able to attend. The turnout for this event is always incredible, I think the last two we attended had over 30 FF and CF cars on the track. So dont be so quick to sit this one out. The schedule this year is the same as it has always been yet this is always a terrific event.

Ironically, the Pocono National this weekend has the opposite problem. Since NeDiv made this a single national instead of the traditional double, but kept it as a 3 day event, there is actually too much track time. Three 40 minute practices on Friday, two qualifying sessions on saturday total of 45 minutes and then a 40 minute race on Sunday. All that for a track that takes about 5 minutes to learn (right foot to the floor, keep it there).

[glenn cooper]

At the recent Glen Double National we had a much shortened Sat race with about 5 or 6 laps behind safety car due to a FA off in the grass at the Inner Loop. I know there was some suspension damage, which did not allow a flat tow, but how about picking it up by the hoop and taking it directly across the track, and out of the way on driver's right? Shoulda been able to be done in about 5 minutes, including any diaper for dripping, IMO. It was close to half the race time.
We were all held after impound for a group meeting with the stewards dealing with a slew of passing under yellow, etc...
After the Stewie's had their say, some in our group wanted to know why we had such a long period of yellow, when other groups had no such treatment, and were allowed to race with standing yellows.

Conspiracy Theory or not, open wheel run group seems to get the shaft up there a lot.

On Sunday's race we were left with only a half distance affair after some knucklehead allegedly lost his brakes at the inner loop / straightlined it in an earlier run group, kept going until he had nuthin' at the heel of the boot, flew off the track and through the tire wall, and split the guardrail, necessitating about a 2 hour delay.

Sometimes it's not any officiating / WGI NASCAR owned track BS, which believe it or not is actually better than in years past, probably due to the loss of all the gravel traps that have been paved over and are now driveable, instead of being stuck up to the wheel hubs.

In the past they would throw a black flag if there was any kind of incident, which at virtually any other track would be cuase for a standing yellow.

Further edit:
ALL on track calls at WGI are made by their own staff of ISC employees.
No corner workers are allowed over the wall to assist until such time as it is deemed safe, and I believe that time is when all the cars are in hot pit road.
It seems like the SCCA has their hands tied when it comes to the operations side of things at the Glen.

[LenFC11]

mmm F2000 championship series marge.... lmao

[mmi16]

At the recent Glen Double National we had a much shortened Sat race with about 5 or 6 laps behind safety car due to a FA off in the grass at the Inner Loop. I know there was some suspension damage, which did not allow a flat tow, but how about picking it up by the hoop and taking it directly across the track, and out of the way on driver's right? Shoulda been able to be done in about 5 minutes, including any diaper for dripping, IMO. It was close to half the race time.
We were all held after impound for a group meeting with the stewards dealing with a slew of passing under yellow, etc...
After the Stewie's had their say, some in our group wanted to know why we had such a long period of yellow, when other groups had no such treatment, and were allowed to race with standing yellows.

Conspiracy Theory or not, open wheel run group seems to get the shaft up there a lot.

On Sunday's race we were left with only a half distance affair after some knucklehead allegedly lost his brakes at the inner loop / straightlined it in an earlier run group, kept going until he had nuthin' at the heel of the boot, flew off the track and through the tire wall, and split the guardrail, necessitating about a 2 hour delay.

Sometimes it's not any officiating / WGI NASCAR owned track BS, which believe it or not is actually better than in years past, probably due to the loss of all the gravel traps that have been paved over and are now driveable, instead of being stuck up to the wheel hubs.

In the past they would throw a black flag if there was any kind of incident, which at virtually any other track would be cuase for a standing yellow.

Further edit:
ALL on track calls at WGI are made by their own staff of ISC employees.
No corner workers are allowed over the wall to assist until such time as it is deemed safe, and I believe that time is when all the cars are in hot pit road.
It seems like the SCCA has their hands tied when it comes to the operations side of things at the Glen.

WGI does it's own thing when it comes to flagging, FCY and BFA....it is not a NASCAR thing it is a WGI thing as I have never had a similar experience at Daytona....and NASCAR is Daytona and vice versa....I understand that Daytona does use Central Floriada Region as their F&C group instead of the WGI only people that WGI uses. I would be nice if the WGI group actually knew what they were doing....Got the passing flag while dicing for position amongst 6 cars.....never got the passing flag when being overtaken by the faster cars in the group.

[EACIII]

With all the things said I still plan on going to the Fun One this year. missed the earlier races and need to go to the Glenn at least once a year. Besides the pig roast dinner on Sat night make the trip worthwhile.

Ed

[AlanVDW]

"ALL on track calls at WGI are made by their own staff of ISC employees.
No corner workers are allowed over the wall to assist until such time as it is deemed safe, and I believe that time is when all the cars are in hot pit road.
It seems like the SCCA has their hands tied when it comes to the operations side of things at the Glen. "

I once, and only once, flagged at WGI. I was told not to go over the rail. Ever. Period. If I did so, they will pick me up and drop me off outside the gate. Only the WGI rescue EV's are allowed to respond. Your car could be on fire right in front of the flag station and we would just have to stand there and maybe wave a flag.

I love driving the track, but WGI runs the show, full race or a shortened one. It's their sandbox.

[Bob Wright]

umm- I watched a formula car effectively burn to the ground as a corner worker stood helplessly on the other side of the guard rail watching and waiting for the crash truck.

Chris- It's still probably worth going, because you might get some track time, and you will get some decent competition.

Thanks to all for mentioning our Series re track time- that and great tracks, are exactly why we run it.

[Monte]

Oh yes, I am still going. I just had to start this whole thing because I find that an 8 lap race is pathetic and would like to have a word with the race chair people. I sent one email and will send another. Trying to eek out 2 more laps for the race.
Besides, .....I do need the track time. Bob, the car you saw me in at NJMP is new to me and it was the first time in it. I need to pick up a ton of speed to try to play at a F2000 event next year! Also, you are correct.... There are some great drivers that go and I am looking forward to see what we can do against them.

Chasing Jonathan around the track in Jersey was fun but I need a few more seconds. Oh, and I get new tires this time. Not the 3 year old tires I used in Jersey.

So after my starting all of this, I am still going. Hope to see you all there.

Chris M.

[Steve Demeter]

As a former RE, I can assure all that the region putting on ANY race's first priority is safety above all costs.

Any region that is smart at all about putting on a race tries very very hard to give the competitors the best possible bang for the buck, and most of them are acutely aware of the importance of track time.

If your customer is unhappy they are less likely to come back.

This awareness on the part of regions has not come overnight. I can remember long ago it was almost non existent. But with what has happened in the last years, the customer base is smaller and ...

That all said, SAFETY is the most important thing regardless.

As far as unnecessary FCY's and the like, sometimes the track has their own set of rules, such as will not dispatch a wrecker on a hot course, etc.

And remember that the control of the race is turned over to the stewards organization once registration opens. If a FCY or red is called by the stewards, please be assured that the operating steward believes it is necessary to maintain SAFETY, not just of the drivers but of all people involved.

And remember that drivers (which I am) have been known to overdrive yellows and cause an already bad situation to become worse.

I know this is a long rant, but I believe that although unfortunately sometimes track time is lost, there is always a good reason that makes it necessary. (and yes I have been p##ed off at losing track time).

[Amon]

Steve,

I don't believe many people will disagree with your post. However, requesting
constant "Full Course" yellows on a 3+ mile long track when a "local yellow"
would suffice is the biggest gripe among us in regards to track time. Not every
yellow is the same but you'd be hard pressed to know it at several tracks,
especially the Glen

Mark

[Albatross]

Geeeez, and I was planning on fullfilling a life long ambition of trecking back from the Northwest to race those courses sometime in the next two years before I close out my racing. And, yes, save the kink.

[Tom Maycock]

FWIW, decisions on FCY and BFA at SCCA events at Road America are made by the SCCA stewards in charge.

Between the SCCA stewards, emergency services, and F&C people and the track's own ES and dispatch staff, you'll see every effort made to deal with incidents under local yellows only.

Obviously some events mandate an instant FC or BF, but usually you only see those come out when the quantity of incidents exceeds the ability to cope with them all, or when drivers aren't respecting the local yellows--something which seems to be becoming a more serious problem.

Our crews are very willing to put their health and safety at risk to keep race under green if at all possible. That makes it all the more frustrating when you see drivers ignoring the yellow (and white) flags intended to protect those workers (and the drivers).

I think we had a total of 3 safety vehicles hit (hard) between the '08 and '09 June Sprints--I think two were under local yellows and one was under a full course yellow. That's not good.

I'm sure different regions and tracks have their own rules. But if you want to maximize your track time, showing a big amount of respect for local yellows will be key.

Tom

[John Nesbitt]

As one who has operated races at the Glen, let me offer some facts.

The operating steward is SCCA. He/she is the one who orders a FCY or a Black Flag All. Not the track.

Unlike at most other tracks, the communicator in Race Control is a track person. However, the operating steward still runs the show.

Flagging is done by an outfit which is effectively affiliated with the track. The rules for flaggers are restrictive in terms of crossing the wall. Out-of-region SCCA flaggers typically stay away.

EV is a track operation, and does not do hot pulls.

As mentioned, it's SCCA which orders an FCY or BFA. However, if we want a car moved before end of session, it's either BFA or FCY. With the limited run-off in many areas, there are few places where we feel comfortable leaving cars until end of session.

That's the environment we work in.

[Monte]

My apologies to John Walsh, race chair for "the Fun One".

I sent an email to him which he did not deserve. Then I started this blog before I got the answer. I guess I dont like waiting for answers. I fully intend to be at this event unless a problem arises out of my control. I stand by my misunderstanding of the amount of laps to track minutes as they do not equal out. There is a dead space of time and as last year had it, we did not have a full race like the other groups did.

Still. I gave John a little attitude that he did not deserve. See you all there....I hope.

CM