Brake Pads

[JByers]

I have been using PF 01 brake pads since I began running FA and I feel it is time to explore optional pads for improved performance. The 01 does have good life and they modulate fairly well but I am curious if there is another pad out there that might work better? I am seeking some real world experience that would help reduce the necessary process of elimination.
Any opinions out there?

[DB4 Tim]

Good post...I too am in that arena...but for the DB4...so maybe we can get a view from many different cars/brands.

[Jim Gustafson]

Jason, after you kicked everybody's arse at the Run-Offs, it seems there aren't alot of racers willing to divulge information that might help you go even faster

Jim Gustafson
Visual Communications

[DB4 Tim]

OK that part I did not know......

[Franklin Futrelle]

i have run pf pads and hawks on my formula mazda. i like the blue hawks. no fade. require a little more pedal pressure but i feel it gives me more modulation.

[Rennie Clayton]

Jason, after you kicked everybody's arse at the Run-Offs, it seems there aren't alot of racers willing to divulge information that might help you go even faster

Now that the proper amount of doubt has been cast upon any advice offered in this thread... here are my thoughts!

Here's what I've found, by brand:

• PFC: best fade resistance & modulation of any I've tried, and very good on the wear factor
• Mintex & Ferodo: both have reasonable friction and modulation, not quite as good as PFC's, but they shred like tissue paper in an FA
• Hawk: meh - never could get consistent braking modulation with 'em, although the wear rate seems reasonable

Dunno if that narrows things down for you or not, but we will be sticking with PFC's next year.


Cheers,
Rennie

[Paul LeCain]

We use PFC 05.

[davecadrealty]

if anyone is interested i have aquired a bunch (10+) new sets of ferodos between both of my .008's, I would'nt mind unloading some cheap as I wont need all of them. By the way if have used them back to back with pfc. i think pfc have more initial bite and bead in faster but ferodo's are easier on the rotors.

[JByers]

Jim, not everybody and there was some luck factored into my results. Rennie & Paul thanks for breaking the ice on this thread, I was hoping but I wasn't sure if there would be any objective statement submitted regarding the type of braking systems and tires that we use. I believe that we all can benefit from sharing information without giving away trade secrets that will give us all a better racing experience. If we can make improvements in our lap times or drive more consistently at a reduced cost through knowledge of others we all benefit. It's a hell of a lot more fun dicing with another driver for position or turning quicker lap times than ever before compared to just turning sub-par lap times and nobody to race with.
It is my opinion that those of us who are not running on 15" wheels are at a disadvantage but together we might be able to close the gap.

BTW Paul, I could not find an 05 compound listed.

Jason

[Purple Frog]

Jason,

go here for good info on all PFC compounds. (including 03, 05, 06, 07...)

http://porterfield-brakes.com/manufa...+Friction.html

the PFC web site sucks, but Andy has a great site for racers.

[DB4 Tim]

Great picture behind his listings.

Why the disadvantage against the 15' wheels

[Paul LeCain]

BTW Paul, I could not find an 05 compound listed.

Jason,

Here's where I get them. The PFC web site is years out-of-date.

http://www.rotorsandpads.com/Perform...-05-16-44.aspx

Paul

[JByers]

Thanks Frog & Paul that is helpful, it did look like an old site cause I thought the discontinued the 93 compound. Would you know if any rotor preperation is required going from one PFC compound to another PFC compound?

Thinking of rotor preperation, what is the best way to remove the old residue from the rotors when going from one brand to another?

[kea]

Jason,
Machine the rotor surface, when going from late PFC compounds to anything else.

[Paul LeCain]

didn't do anything going from PFC 83->93->01->05.

[JByers]

didn't do anything going from PFC 83->93->01->05.

Paul, what were the differences between the 01 and 05 pads that convinced you to stay with the 05's?

[kea]

Paul,
Problem wasn't with the 83 or 93, but somewhere in the 01 range and up, I heard about problem going to other manufactures. In the order you did it, obviously, it was not an issue. Might have been if you went the other way?

[Graham Rankin]

My 02cents worth:

When we ran the RT4 PFC93 worked well, consistent with others opinion.In fact we would sometimes use 83's on the rears and 93's on the front.

On the 014 we have been using Hawk. I cant say I have had the inconsistency Rennie points to though.Id say wear is reasonable but not great. I have had a couple of sets of late that started to break up in the corners.But to be fair these were "test compound" pads that i had several boxes of that came with the car.So that may not be a fair comparison.

When my Hawk supply runs out (soon) I'll probably go back to PFC

[tonyave]

I have acquired a massive inventory of PFC pads and rotors, and I am selling them for closeout prices. Contact me with PFC part numbers at :
tony@tonyave.com

[DB4 Tim]

Email sent

I have acquired a massive inventory of PFC pads and rotors, and I am selling them for closeout prices. Contact me with PFC part numbers at :
tony@tonyave.com

[Brakeguy1]

Readers

Yes, the PFC website needs freshening up. There is much in place to do just that so stay tuned. Here is the latest compound descriptions;

PFC Race Compounds, the PFC Philosophy

The mission of Performance Friction and all of its employees is to provide the correct pad compound for each application and venue. Instead of using a “you choose” method of pad development as some of the competitors, wherein every pad shape is made in every compound, PFC builds the correct pad to suit the venue it is designed for. This is the reason in many applications; there are only one or two pad options. These options are what PFC recommends for those applications, and are arrived at only after very careful consideration and evaluation. Below you will find a description of the currently available PFC Race Pad Compounds and “Classic” PFC race compounds.

In 2006, PFC race pads won 257 world and national championships, more than all other competitors combined. Winners choose Performance Friction Brakes.

All PFC pad compounds have been thoroughly processed. This means very easy burnishing to bed pads and discs.


2009 Production Performance Friction Race Compounds listed in the order of highest bite and torque vs. endurance and balance.

07 Compound

PFC’s newest high bite and torque compound and has gained immediate favor in the NASCAR, Sportscar, and Open Wheel racing due to its unsurpassed performance. 07 have higher initial bite and higher average torque than any other PFC compound. 07 will have some friction rise with temperature for the most severe applications. The release and modulation characteristics are second to none. Very low abraded disc wear with a fine micronic polished disc finish. Despite its considerable performance, 07 will have slightly better wear than 05. This compound demands the most from the vehicle setup and is designed to handle the most severe applications.
07 Recommended Applications:

For high grip, high downforce, or severe duty applications.

NASCAR Short Track and Road Course

Indycars

F-Nippon

Indy Lites

Professional GT

Daytona Prototype

05 Compound

05 compounds have gained immediate favor in the NASCAR, Sportscar, and Open Wheel racing due to its performance in applications where smooth initial bite is a must especially where coil bind type front setups are used such as in NASCAR. 05 have virtually no friction rise with temperature, with excellent release and modulation characteristics. Very low abraded disc wear with a fine micronic polished disc finish. This compound demands the most from the vehicle setup and is designed to handle the most severe applications.
05 Recommended Applications:

For high grip, high downforce, or severe duty applications.

NASCAR Short Track and Road Course

IndyCar

F-Nippon

Indy Lites

Professional GT

Daytona Prototype


01 Compound

01 is one of the most accepted race compounds in the PFC's arsenal, and has become the standard by which all brake pads are judged. 01 has good initial bite, with very little torque rise with temperature. At the end of the stop, 01 Compound has less torque scatter than the competition for improved modulation with excellent release. 01 Compound has good disc conditioning properties with low wear. 01 Compound is one of PFC’s most popular race compounds, and wins more World and National Championships annually than any other brake pad on the market.

01 Recommended Application:

01 is recommended as an all-purpose pad in a wide variety of applications.

NASCAR Short Track and Road Course

NASCAR Speedway and Intermediate

All Oval Track Race series

IndyCar

Professional GT

Daytona Prototype

SCCA Racing

Porsche/BMW/Corvette/Viper Club Racing


06 compound

06 compound pads are very similar to PFC 01 for both bite and torque, within 4% of those values. Excellent release and control with very low wear. Very low abraded disc wear with a “powdery type” transfer layer. 06 pads are an excellent alternative to other brands of endurance compounds but with much higher performance. Excellent for club racing type shapes as well in OE brake calipers where ABS is used.

06 Recommended Applications:

Endurance Sportscar and GT

NASCAR Short Track and Road Course Rear

NASCAR Speedway and Intermediate Rear

All Oval Track Race series Rear

SCCA Racing

Porsche/BMW Club Racing

Track Day and Driver Education events



08 Compound

08 compounds are one of PFC newest and have gained immediate favor in Endurance Sportscar, and GT racing due to its performance in applications where smooth initial bite is a must. 08 have a slight friction rise with temperature, excellent release and modulation characteristics. Very low abraded disc wear with a fine grey slate like disc finish, similar to 01. Despite its considerable performance, 08 wears the longest of all PFC pads and easily matches wear of the other competitors with much higher bite.

08 Recommended Applications:

Endurance Sportscar and GT

NASCAR Short Track and Road Course Rear

NASCAR Speedway and Intermediate Rear

All Oval Track Race series Rear

SCCA Racing

Porsche/BMW Club Racing

Track Day and Driver Education events

97 Compound

[FONT=&quot]This compound has been a favorite of sportscar endurance racing since its debut. 97 Compound has won races in CART, ALMS, Grand Am, and ASA, and Club Racing, and is a preferred pad for touring car and rally. 97 Compound has less initial bite and average torque than 01. It has great modulation, a very flat torque curve, and enhanced release characteristics. 97 are recommended as a general-purpose pad for Club Racing and Track Day events as well as a rear pad for less locking.

97 Recommended Applications:

Recommended for applications that demand excellent wear and modulation.

NASCAR Short Track and Road Course Rear

NASCAR Speedway and Intermediate Rear

All Oval Track Race series Rear

Endurance GT

SCCA Racing

Porsche/BMW Club Racing

Track Day and Driver Education events

81 Compound

81 Compound is the bench mark for “cold bite” applications such as dirt oval. 81 have excellent release and control. Very low abraded disc wear.[/FONT]
81 Recommended Applications:

High Performance Street

Time Attack

Auto Cross

Club racing

Late Model

Oval Dirt Racing


Classic Performance Friction Race Compounds-Special Order only

Performance Friction has policies and rules based structure for special orders. In some cases, some raw materials are no longer available. The descriptions listed are to help those who have acquired the “classic” PFC pad compounds. Check with your PFC distributor or contact Performance Friction Brakes, INC for further details.

03 Compound

03 Compound has shown to have higher bite and higher average torque than 01 Compound. 03 have very good initial bite, and there is a slight rise of torque with temperature to handle severe conditions. 03 has excellent modulation and release characteristics, less torque scatter than competing pads, and very good disc conditioning properties. Requires finesse so as not to over slow or overwhelm the car’s set-up in some venues.
03 Recommended Applications:

Recommended for high grip and high downforce applications.

NASCAR Short Track and Road Course

Champcar

Professional GT

Daytona Prototype

93 Compound

This compound has higher bite, higher average torque than 99 compound and is one of the more popular of the PFC compounds. 93 Compound is easy on the discs with long wear. This compound has been a favorite of CART, ALMS, Grand Am, Japanese GT, and NASCAR throughout its history. There is a slight torque rise with temperature to handle the most extreme conditions. Requires finesse so as to not over slow the car, or overwhelm the car's setup. This compound has been replaced in PFC’s lineup by 01, 03 and 05, but is still popular and available in limited applications.
93 Recommended Applications:

Recommended for high grip and high downforce applications.

Champcar

Professional GT

GT Prototype

SCCA Formula Car Racing

Recommended for high grip and high downforce applications.


83 Compound

This is the compound that has won more championships since its debut than all others. It is a perennial workhorse in NASCAR. When it comes to slowing down under the most severe conditions, 83 Compound has a tremendous history of success. Higher bite than 80 Compound, with a rising torque curve to handle the most extreme conditions, along with low wear. 01, 03 and 05 Compounds are steadily replacing 83 Compound in most applications. It is still available in many applications and remains a viable choice nearly 20 years after being released.

83 Recommended Applications:

Recommended for high grip and severe duty applications.

NASCAR Short Track and Road Course

NASCAR Speedway and Intermediate

All Oval Track Race series

Recommended for severe duty applications.

99 Compound

This compound has won in CART Champ Cars, and the 24hrs of Daytona. 99 Compound has slightly higher bite, and higher torque than 97 Compound with excellent release. It has improved modulation throughout its range, and a very flat torque curve compared with 83. 99 Compound is very easy on the discs, and has very low wear. 99 has been a favorite for street circuits where the track conditions are at their worst, and lock up is a problem. It has been replaced in PFC’s lineup by 01 Compound, but there is still limited availability in some pad shapes.
99 Recommended Applications:

Recommended for applications that demand excellent wear and modulation.

Champcar

Endurance GT

SCCA Racing

Porsche/BMW Club Racing

90 Compound

This compound has been a favorite of race driving schools because of its modulation characteristics. Used exclusively at race schools such as Bob Bondurant, Derek Daly, and Jim Russell because of is forgiving nature. 90 Compounds is very easy on the discs, yet has higher cold bite than 83 compound along with less torque rise for improved modulation. 90 Compound has been replaced by 97 in most applications, but is still available in a limited number of applications.[/FONT]
90 Recommended Applications

Recommended for applications that demand good wear and modulation.

GT

SCCA Racing

Porsche/BMW Club Racing

80 Compound
80 Compound has the longest race winning history in PFC’s arsenal. Newer compounds have replaced 80 in most applications. 80 Compound is a traditional favorite in the dirt and late model markets. It the It is the lowest torque race compound in PFC's lineup. This compound has won in every venue that it has raced in, from NASCAR at Martinsville, VA, to sportscars at the 24hrs of Daytona.

80 Recommended Applications

NASCAR Short Track and Road Course Rear

NASCAR Speedway and Intermediate Rear

All Oval Track Race series Rear

Late Model

Oval Dirt Racing



Glossary of terms used in the racing brake industry;

“Bite” is the initial reaction the pad’s have when first engaged. This characteristic is designed into the PFC pads to maximize deceleration at the first 1/3’d of the stopping event while both aero and dynamic grip-traction of the racecar are at their optimum

“Torque” is the amount of decel during the braking event for the given amount of driver effort. An important area of improvement for PFC is how smooth the torque delivery is for the given driver’s input.

“Release” or modulation, is the ability to control the last 1/3’d of the stopping event and prevent overwhelming the available mechanical grip of the tire’s traction with the track surface. This is where PFC stands out from other manufacturers, in that our superior release characteristics give the driver unrivaled control with the highest torque.

“Feel, trail braking, threshold braking” is how dynamically, the bite, torque, and release interact with both the brake system components and the vehicle’s grip-traction level. This interaction, and the subsequent effects and their value are subject to debate from driver to driver. Certainly a moving target for all racing brake manufacturers.

“Mu” is the value of the coefficient of friction between the rubbing surfaces. Like tires, many factors effect this value.

“Race ready” a term that PFC refers to in it’s processing of brake pads regardless if they are race or street compounds. Essentially, the PFC brake pads are processed were by the “green effectiveness” is minimized and very little “bedding or burnishing” is required. New PFC pads may be used on new PFC discs with no issues (See technical section as to the simple procedures of bedding the brakes”


“Prebedded or Dyno bedded or Dyno burnished” Although not required for PFC products, culturally it is an accepted practice to help minimize the perceived track time lost or to help isolate the driver’s influence. The pads and/or discs are dyno burnished in a controlled environment, with computer control plans in place to insure peak performance. There some companies who tout their procedures for their dyno bedding but leave a lot to be desired. It is highly recommended that if these type of products are desired, that use PFC prebedded components as proper procedures have been implemented for optimum quality.

“Transfer layer” is the layer of friction material that is transferred to the disc’s wear surface. This layer contains specialized elements to aid in the release and control of the interaction of the friction between the discs and brake pads. Transfer layer’s have their character as to their look. Some pad materials have a heavier, grey slate like look while others have a more micronic “bright” metal look.

“Oxidation layer” this refers the pad’s color at the interface area between the pads and discs. As the pads receive energy, the friction material will discolor. In PFC’s case, there is a patented extremely high temperature powder coating that reduces the effects of oxidation and will have a brownish tint to it. This can be a very good visual aid to determine if the brake pads have been over heated. See technical section. [

“Hard, Medium and Soft” brake pads, within the Performance Friction Carbon Metallic patented processes there is very little difference in the pad’s density. These terms come from earlier pad technologies where race tire terms were used to describe the pad’s characteristics. Today’s PFC pads have the different nuisances designed into them with very little change to the friction material’s density.

“Brake Fade” is when the brake pedal is still firm but both the bite and the brake torque diminishes. There are many factors that influence fade, including excessive pad temperature, fluid temperature, vehicle traction degradation, and green effectiveness.

“Green Fade, Green effectiveness” is a common problem with other manufacturer’s brake pads and or discs. It occurs when either the pads or discs require an extended period of “bedding or burnishing” before they become effective. Green Fade is not an issue with PFC due to the Race Ready processing for it’s brake pads and the machining procedures of it’s discs. See technical section as to proper bedding procedures.


Racing Brake Component Terms

“Boiled brake fluid” There are 2 types of brake fluids made today. Glycol-ester blends and high percentage ester content blends. Most popular is the glycol based. The glycol based fluids, normally has low compressibility but is “hygroscopic” which means it absorbs water. It is the water that gasses off and adds to the “spongy pedal” effect. This should not be confused with “brake fade”. The moment the fluid container is opened, it is absorbing water from the humidity in the air. When reviewing brake fluids, the contents label will list a dry and wet boiling point. Pay no attention to the large numbers used by the marketers to describe the product as they can be very misleading. Glycol brake fluid’s dry boiling point seldom exceeds 580F (304c) even though you’ll see 600, 610 and 660 as a label description. The use of PFC caliper temperature stickers, p/n 032.0007 is highly recommended to monitor brake fluid and caliper seal condition. If the calipers exceed 430f (210c) for an extend period, the brake fluid and or caliper seals will deteriorate.

High percentage ester blends have the promise of higher dry and wet boiling points. These type of brake fluids are usually more expensive than the glycol-ester blends. The reason is ester’s less water absorption qualities. But not all high ester blends are equal, and in many cases, although less water content to boil, compressibility may be an issue at elevated temperatures so spongy pedal effect is the same.

PFC recommends Castrol SRF racing brake fluid because of decades of proven consistency and performance. Replacing brake fluid often and bleeding the brake system correctly (see technical section) is the cheapest insurance of consistent brake pedal.

“Knock-back or Knock-off” this is when the brake pad is has been forced away from the disc while the vehicle is in motion. The effect leads to soft or inconsistent brake pedal. If the driver taps the brake pedal and the brake pedal, improves, this is knock back. This can occur with both 2-piece and 1-piece design discs. There are a number of factors that influence this phenomenon. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Drivers banging curbs is the leading cause. Too much or too little lateral float with the 2-piece design disc assemblies. Other areas of interest are spindle, bearing hub deflection. The caliper’s mounting to disc concentricity at elevated temperatures. Dynamic disc symmetry to the pads to list a few.

“Seal pull back, seal roll back” the symptoms are the same as knock-back. The pistons in the calipers are being pulled back due to seal geometry. There are many factors that effect how the seals interact with the piston surface. Seal design, seal tension, seal groove shape, seal condition, and bore distortion are just a few areas of interest.

“Knock-back springs” these are typically cone shaped springs that sit behind the caliper’s pistons. All proper race caliper designs have provisions designed into the caliper’s well area for these springs. The goal of the springs to help stabilize the seal’s roll back. You want the pistons to have just the right amount of roll back to help the brake pad release and reduce brake drag. Excessive tension can lead to excessive brake drag and over heating.

“Recirculators or closed loop systems” refers to a hydraulic brake line system that has a series of check valves to insure fluid fill in one direction. The theory behind these systems is as the brake pads wear, a certain amount of fluid is displaced localized in the caliper’s well area. Although there may be some benefits initially with providing a promise of a firmer brake pedal, the subsequent added brake drag due to the hysterisis of the inline check valves affects release, modulation and reduces the ability for the brake pads too cool. PFC highly discourages the use of these products. These systems should not be confused with “bump cycles” strategies used in modern ABS systems.

“Judder or brake shake” this refers to the vibration the driver feel in either the brake pedal or steering wheel or both. In most cases, the dynamic disc symmetry to the brake pads is not being maintained. There is a series of complex reasons for this especially when the vibration is intermittent and is tied into all the geometries used in all the brake components that surround the vehicle’s corner.

“Balance bar or dual braking systems” refers to the brake pedal controls that use 2-master cylinders for separate hydraulic circuits for the front and rear but limited to that configuration. Their pressures can be adjusted with the use of a balance bar attached to the brake pedal. Most responsible racing sanctioning bodies require the use these controls as it offers redundancy for safety reasons. There are number of nuances with both their configurations as well as setting these systems up. Refer to the technical section.

“Fiddle brakes” this refers to a balance bar system that can not only control fore and aft brake bias but side to side brake bias. These systems are typically found in rally of off-road type race vehicles. Most sanctioning bodies have banned their use because of the electronic controls required to make these systems work. These systems should not be confused with modern ABS systems.

“Proportioning or prop valve” refers to a pressure limiting hydraulic valve usually inline with the rear circuit. Racing versions of these valves are typically adjustable. They can only bend or limit peak pressure, they can not add more pressure. PFC recommends the balance bar systems over the use of these valves due to inherent hysterisis, which affects release and modulation.

“Soft or long pedal” dynamically, there are number of reasons for the brake pedal to be soft initially or go soft while the car is in motion. If initially, the area of interest is the bleeding procedures especially when a dual master cylinders when a balance bar is used. If a new brake system is installed, then insuring the correct size master cylinder(s) is used. If the brake pedal is firm initially, but drops or pumping the brakes is needed to firm up the brake pedal feel than refer to brake fluid, knock-back, judder sections as all will affect the brake pedal consistency.

Hope this helps,

Darrick Dong
Director of Motorsports
Performance Friction Brakes

[DB4 Tim]

Most excellent +

[P.W. LeCain]

Paul, what were the differences between the 01 and 05 pads that convinced you to stay with the 05's?

Jason,
I like short, quick pedals and the 01's initially grab pretty quick. But to me, it seemed to fade a bit over the course of a session. The 05's seem to stay the same for a whole race and/or session.

Other than that, I did not notice sny significant difference.

[Brakeguy1]

Jason,
I like short, quick pedals and the 01's initially grab pretty quick. But to me, it seemed to fade a bit over the course of a session. The 05's seem to stay the same for a whole race and/or session.

Other than that, I did not notice sny significant difference.

Hi Guys

Fade is when the pedal is firm but there is a loss in decel vs effort applied. Flat torque curves may mimic that response as opposed to having some friction rise with temps. The key is understanding the dynamic brake temps using brake temp. paints on the discs.

Do you you know what the dynamic brake temps are? And what the dynamic brake bias is?

Is this "fade" a loss in braking effectiveness or does the pedal lose some of it's firmness and there by "threashold braking feel"?

Darrick Dong

[D.T. Benner]

Darrick,do you still make these? (7720.93.15.44) I had only found them at Pegasus latly.

[Brakeguy1]

D.T.

I checked the 7720.93.15.44 inventory and its all gone. 93 compound was a kick ass pad but some of the compound elements are no longer available and has since been replaced with 05 compound. PN 7720.05.15.44

05 has 4% more cold bite than 93 with roughly the same torque as 93 at the last 3rd of the stop. 05 does have better control and has the same disc finish as 93's. At very high temps, the 93 will last about 5% longer than 05.

Everything you like about 93 is in 05 and the 05's are in stock.

Darrick

[DB4 Tim]

I need to talk a bit about help......OK weird way to start...however I have been talking with BRAKEGUY1 since the thread started and DAMN this guy is good, knows his STUFF....now you might say well I already know...


....HE is good, I thought I knew also .....bottom line is he helped me a ton......you have questions ask him he is not all about selling only....very cool...and you know I don't own stock in PFC..

maybe I should...customer service is a thing of the past