Factory 48

[Purple Frog]

I couldn't decide whether to post this in "Getting Started" or "CFC". But I'm already 11 years past the last time i "got started", so i'm putting it in CFC.

I have been debating what to do with Pollywog since her little cross-country escapade at the SIC. In that small excursion i destroyed all the wings and wing mounts, a diffuser, a nose and attenuator, two rear corners, two sidpods, and assorted other pieces and parts.

I've phoned a lot of folks, and had philoshopical discussions with Sean O'Connell (Carnut169). The delimma is that in order to repair Pollywog into a car I'm willing to go flat into T12 at Road Atlanta, it is going to cost probably more than a 87-90 Reynard is worth. And, after spending all that money, it still will be a 90 Reynard.

I debated selling off all the good parts I have such as the frame, motor, front casting, gearbox, 2 sets of wheels, steering racks, 6 complete corners, spare uprights, aluminum rads, yadda, yadda, yadda. A sale like that would probably make me more than selling a complete car. Then I could use those funds to help get into a push rod car. In some ways though, a sale like that seems like a travesty.

There is a lot of work involved in getting Pollywog back into shape. But as Sean agreed, if I buy somebody's used car in a price range i could afford, there would be a lot of the same work to get it up to standard.

Yesterday, walking through the shop, Speed TV had some show airing about a tour of the Factory 5 business. You know, Factory 5 is that outfit that sells kit cars of car like Cobra roadsters, etc. Buy the kit from them, add one donor car, spend a lot of time and money, and if all goes well you have a nice Sunday afternoon cruiser. I admit that now that I've completed 6 decades, there is some attraction to building another car from the ground up, especially considering the big odds one would not do major damage to it making laps through the local drive-in restuarant on Saturday evenings. When building race cars from the ground up, there is always that small chance that soon after completion it will get wadded up.

But racing is what i like to do, not cruising down the boulevard in some over polished garage queen. So, instead of building a kit hot rod street car, I'm going to build a "kit" racecar. At this time it just seems like the cheapest way to get back on the track with a solid car.

So... instead of Factory 5, I'm doing Factory 48 (in honor of Pollywog's number).

As you can see in the attached picture, i have a frame that is ready to be massaged. It seriously needs a floor. Somebody in Colorado a few years ago changed the rollbar and expanded the shoulder area for a "big boy" fit. To make it safer and fit better, I need to change a tube or two, and maybe add a tube across the bottom. After all that I'm leaning towards powercoating the frame.

Last night i spent three hours reading all the archived articles about replacing floors (Thanks again, Tom Johnson). During all that reading, I got to wondering if there was maybe a reason to do a thread showing the process of doing a ground-up restoration from start to finish. But after doing a few hours of reading, i have come to believe most of the readers here have already done a major rebuild or two.

When the car was running so good at the SIC, and just being back from this year's Runons, I was giving some thought about qualifying for the 2010 Runoffs in the old Reynard. I was thinking about running a bunch of early Southern nationals, and getting qualified before I had to go to work in the Summer with the F2000 Series. I think with the expense of this rebuild that plan is being shelved. But I might be ready for the first Road Atlanta national.

I expect there to be significant "scope creep" with this project. You know, the scope of the project creeps ever upward as one progresses. e.g. the motor is out, so maybe it's time for a refresh, new cam and flywheel. Maybe get the gearbox blueprinted. Replace all the rod ends. and of course new paint all over. Whew... this could really get out of hand.

OBTW, a dismantled race car takes up a whole lot more shop space than an assembled one.

[jim morgan]

Go get a DB-6 frame you can always get spares from JRII. He hardly ever runs anyway.

[DanW]

Mike,

There is a reason many of the collector car insurers won't touch a cobra kit... They are surprisingly easy to wad up.

My co worker just had the air cleaner nut ingested into #4 cylinder of his Factory Five to cause substantial indigestion...

I'm glad Pollywog didn't go off anywhere at Willow Springs. You would have needed more than just a floor pan.

How about creating a blog of your build? Yes it will be more expensive the buying a car, but I call a rebuild the "Easy Payment Plan" of getting a new car.

[azjc]

I'd go for a long running blog ... knowing you it will not only take some time to finish the project but also will be a bit wordy . Pictures are a must, even if a reader doesn't have a Reynard they will become handy reference. Besides... those like me that have only partially rebuilt our cars so far but dream of doing a complete in the future would rather watch you figure out what works & what doesn't !

[Purple Frog]

Before I started i got about 144 of those old fashioned paper tags that have a string attached to each one. When in doubt, label it.

Take pictures of assemblies, before they are disassembled.

[rickb99]

Mike,

I have an 89SF frame in the garage that looks EXACTLY like that right down to the front casting still being on it (thanks to one cantankerous bolt). Used medium and small zip-lock bags to keep the proper bolts/nuts for various locations together and labeled.

Some day soon I hope, that bolt will come out and it will be off to the sand blaster, welder and paint shop.

I've been advised to have the previous belly pan holes "taped" with a TIG welder and grind off smooth to avoid fighting with the old holes. What are you going to do??

[Redbone027]

Hey Frog :
I'm sure you've heard of this before but....
When I took my yellow Reynard to the frame last winter (glassbead blast is a major help to uncover all previous owner Sins), I was mortified by the "swiss-cheese of rivet blanks & holes" in the bottom frame rails. I built a rotating stand for the Frame (GREAT idea until the engine goes back in the car) & <against expert advice> I cut narrow access holes in certain parts of the frame. I knew I had a "few rivets" that were rolling around, but I had no idea how bad it would be !
I am 100% totally serious when I say that I have a witness & picture to prove that I removed over 4 POUNDS of rivets from a car with only 30+/- races since new in 1984 & still had the original belly pan on it !
That extra hour or 2 cutting/repairing the Frame was the cheapest weight savings I could have ever completed !
And THAT may be another good excuse to rebuild what you have - the way YOU want it to be done - and enjoy PollyWog for many seasons to come.

Good Luck....and hurry up too !

Ardie

[dc]

I see a perfect textbook use for Speed.Blogs.

[carnut169]

You know...

I don't think people buy all those models (you know, like your favorite WW2 airplane) for the joy of having them... it's the building that's so much fun.

Luckly you have a model that once complete has the power to weight ration of a Viper and better handling than any street car on the planet.

[formulasuper]

Go for it Froggy. You know me; Mr. "do-it-yourself" (and I've already done the FFR Cobra, using the 4.6 DOHC V8, no air cleaner nut to drop down the intake).
Like I've said before, real racers do it all, not just drive the car. I like knowing every nut, bolt, wire, hose, etc. is installed correctly. Taking pictures before disassembly is wise. When I recently restored the Lola T440 vintage FF I bought for the FF 40th Reunion I would have had a tough time figuring out how to put it all back together again without the photos. To save floor space in the shop I hang sections of body parts up in the unused space between the rafters. After you weld up the rivet holes in the frame tubes mark their location on the sides of the tubes so when you lay the new floor pan on & start drilling the new holes you won't hit the welded spots. It'll be good to read your story of another run for the "RunOffs"!

[kea]

Frog,
Go to it.
Remember, if you get yourself in a jam, there is nothing you can do, that I haven't done or seen already on a 88 Reynard.
You may be a distance away but you are not alone.

[RussMcB]

I had the same experience as Ardie above. I was amazed at the number of rivets inside my frame tubes - so many that I wondered if their shifting positions during braking and cornering might affect handling! :-).

Frog, if you take the time to do it right (and I know you will), there may very well be several future owners that will really appreciate the attention you gave it. Imagine the owner of your car showing it off at a vintage event in the year 2030!

[BruceRace]

Hi Frog....never met but know of you!!!! If you do weld up the old holes, make sure you stagger the new holes! I didn't, and it was crazy trying to drill through the "weld spots". I probably went through 30 or more drill bits!!!, plus the bit tended to wander , apparently because the weld was harder than the frame!!!!! I too cut access holes to remove the old rivets......got about 2.5 lbs. out of mine!!! Bruce (Reynard SF90).......

[nulrich]

The logical choice would be to buy a later chassis, as I think you realize. What's the going price for a pushrod Van Diemen roller these days? I've seen some pretty nice ones out there...Glenn picked one up for one of his club racing customers fairly cheaply. You already have an engine.

On the other hand, racing makes no sense in any case, so do whatever will give you the most satisfaction. I'd enjoy following your restoration project through a blog, for sure.

If you're going to strip the frame down all the way, you might consider welding a flange to the lower frame rails so you can use solid rivets for the floor rather than blind rivets. Are you over or under minimum weight?

I can see a few places where that frame could use reinforcement. For safety reasons at least, but also for stiffness. There doesn't seem to be much triangulation of the main roll hoop, for example. It would be great to see more photos. Be glad to give you my educated guesses!

Nathan

[rickb99]

.... I too cut access holes to remove the old rivets......got about 2.5 lbs. out of mine!!! Bruce (Reynard SF90).......

Hmmm, is that really necessary??

I havn't worked on rivet removal yet (it's on the agenda). But can't you tilt and work the chassis to get the rivets to drop out the casting bung holes front and rear?? Or, are they blocked off?

[BruceRace]

Some of the tubes go "through & through', and some don't.........some are side to side, etc. I spent a day with air pressure and a vacuum at the ends to chase the stuff out! not sure if I ever got them all!!!!

[Purple Frog]

Doug, i need to study up on that new fangled "Speed Blogs" thing. Maybe...

Nathan. The car with fatso in it was 35 lbs. over weight. I had a long discussion with Richard Pare about those 18 gauge strips being added to the bottom rails. The problem becomes just how big of a project do I want this to expand into. For instance, solid rivets... for the backyard guy that becomes a whole other technology to buy and learn. Somehow putting all those solid rivets in by oneself with only 1.5 hours to work before the Hysol hardens seems impossible. On the other hand, I really don't want to see grass passing below me ever again.

Also Nathan, I'll try to post more pictures of the bare frame mainly because Reynard owners might be interested in your thoughts.

One interesting discovery. There is only one set of holes on the bottom rails and they are not wobbled out. It looks like the floor that tore off was the original one. Not a lot of swiss cheese. So maybe i won't weld up all the holes and start over, but just copy the hole pattern i already have. Although that copying process can be a royal PIA from what I've read.

The floor had been bonded with some form of epoxy. Interestingly the epoxy was still firmly attached to the steel rails ( it required chiseling to remove), but had no adhesion to the AL floor. Probably the floor was not prepped correctly in 1989, or as Pare suggests, it was not anodized, thus preventing a good bond.

On the humorous side. I wonder how much a few hundred zip-ties weigh? I sure cut a basketful off the car during the disassembly.

The Reynard has a stepped floor up front. Pare suggested welding 18 gauge steel on the bottom of that very front portion (just behind the casting). He said to do it for safety reasons. It would help prevent the footbox from collapsing during a big hit, and the weight gain of that small piece wouldn't be too costly compared to the safety gain.

In the last few days I've discovered that decisions have to be made as to where the "cut off point" is in regard to improvements to make. For instance, DaveW walked into the shop in the swamp, took one look at the lower rear wishbones on the Reynard and winced. The wishbone pickup points on the transaxle are way too close together compared to modern cars. But am I going to try to redesign the whole Rear suspension as Tony Kestor has on his beautiful FF Reynard? NO. If I'm going to rebuild this thing, I don't think I want to get into some complicated reengineering project. It would be far easier and cheaper to just buy a modern car.

Another interesting point. Mainly because of the advancement of tires in the last 20 years we are driving these old cars harder and with higher G loads than they were designed for. Pare looked at the broken ARB blade and noted that it was constructed without eliminating the stress risers running the length of all the edges of the blade. It worked for 20 years. But could it be that going faster than i ever before went through T8 on new R35 stickers, put more load on it than it was ever designed for?

Some weight may be pared off if all the bolts on the car were cut to the length they only need to be. This car has AL floor, Al rads, lightened CVs, mag wheels, etc. There just isn't many places left to shed weight other than the driver.

[TimW]

So maybe i won't weld up all the holes and start over, but just copy the hole pattern i already have. Although that copying process can be a royal PIA from what I've read.

Sometimes, the correct tool for the job is not the closest tool to the job...

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...catorPunch.php

Tim

[rickb99]

... One interesting discovery. There is only one set of holes on the bottom rails and they are not wobbled out.

The floor had been bonded with some form of epoxy. Interestingly the epoxy was still firmly attached to the steel rails ( it required chiseling to remove), but had no adhesion to the AL floor. Probably the floor was not prepped correctly in 1989, or as Pare suggests, it was not anodized, thus preventing a good bond....

Ours (I think) is the original too. 1/8th inch rivets on 1 inch centers. Man, that's a lot of holes to try and duplicate accurately!

Bonding? What bonding. When I pulled all the rivets (that were still doing something), the belly pan fell off!!

[aerobach]

Keep it simple Froggy.
Lay out newpaper print paper (tape together pieces if necessary) along the frame rails then press a crayon onto the rails. In other words, make a trace of the holes in the rails. Once the trace is made, you now have a pattern to lay out onto steel/alum/whatever you choose to use as a floor pan.
Since you're the self appointed king of cheap, here's an idea for you. If you don't have any crayons handy, some night when you and Mrs Frog go out for dinner - ask for a kid's menu (to give to the grand Kids, of course) and snag the crayons from that!!!!
Lots of luck, John Bachmann

[R. Pare]

One interesting discovery. There is only one set of holes on the bottom rails and they are not wobbled out. It looks like the floor that tore off was the original one. Not a lot of swiss cheese. So maybe i won't weld up all the holes and start over, but just copy the hole pattern i already have. Although that copying process can be a royal PIA from what I've read.

If the original pan can be straightened enough, you might be able to use it as your template for drilling the nes one.

The floor had been bonded with some form of epoxy. Interestingly the epoxy was still firmly attached to the steel rails ( it required chiseling to remove), but had no adhesion to the AL floor. Probably the floor was not prepped correctly in 1989, or as Pare suggests, it was not anodized, thus preventing a good bond.

Breaking away from the alu is typical. The anodizing stops the corrosion process of the alu that will continue no matter how fast you sand and clean apply the epoxy to bare alu. It's the corrosion layer that breaks away from the alu pan, not the epoxy!

The Reynard has a stepped floor up front. Pare suggested welding 18 gauge steel on the bottom of that very front portion (just behind the casting). He said to do it for safety reasons. It would help prevent the footbox from collapsing during a big hit, and the weight gain of that small piece wouldn't be too costly compared to the safety gain.

Oops - I forgot that the Reynards had that front casting, eliminating the normal front cross tubes. In this case, a welded pan won't add much.

[Wren]

The strap duplicator is the right tool for the job. It's not super quick, but it's not bad.

As for the doubler strip welded inside the frame rails. Do it. It's cheap and easy. Find someone you can borrow the equipment from to bang solid rivets and have them give you a 30 minute lesson in banging rivets and you will be good to go. It is dirt cheap and easy and worth the extra effort. 1/8" rivets on 1" centers doesn't sound like very much.

Frog- are you going to be at the ARRC?

Ebay is an excellent source of aircraft surplus rivets.

[Brandon Dixon]

I'll provide the tools and help you pound the solid rivets if we can arrange to be in the same place at the same time...

[nulrich]

Putting it back together with minimal changes makes sense to me. This kind of project would drive me crazy, I'd end up wanting to redesign everything and I'd never finish. Unless you are into restoration projects, and get a lot of enjoyment out of the process, just get it assembled and on track so you can have fun.

There is nothing inherently wrong with blind rivets, especially if your frame rails are in good shape, they are really just to clamp the pan long enough for the adhesive to set (theoretically ). Still, there is a lot of satisfaction in a solid rivet. Aluminum is hard to bond well, even with the best prep and adhesives. Welding is the best glue, in my opinion!

I would be interested in more photos of the frame. It seems oddly designed from that one image, I would expect a lot more triangulation. The Citation frame is a good example of a properly executed tube structure from what I've seen. Before I had FEA, I used to design tube frames by making scale models using strips of balsa wood and super glue. You might consider doing that yourself, it wouldn't be hard make a 1" or 2" = 1 foot model directly from your frame. Ten pounds of tubes in the right places might make a huge difference.

Is there a stressed skin main hoop bulkhead?

Nathan

[Redbone027]

I will try to find that publication somewhere (its in the test-prep materials for A&P license) & forward to you Mike.
It states that WITH a great bonding agent (like 3M Panelbond #8115 Adhesive "officially licensed by NASCAR even !) a "mechanical fastner" is ONLY needed to secure the mating surfaces until the adhesive dries..... that means that the adhesive is MUCH stronger than the rivets, and that 1"on-center may be overkill.
One other suggestion : go to HarborFreight (home of CHEAP) & buy an Air Rivet gun. Its WAY cheaper than my "official Aircraft" Rivet Puller, but it'll work fine for the next 15 or 20 Formula Car bellypans you do before it starts failing the air rivet puller means Mrs.Frog will struggle to keep up "loading the rivets in the car" while you line-up & pull them down quickly !

GOOD LUCK !

[azjc]

I've always used Silicon Bronze rod with a TIG welder to fill holes (lot's of trim holes to fill when turning a street car into a race car). Much easier to work with / drill then if using steel rod. Miller makes a great easy to use TIG welder that I run off my electric dryer outlet. The best single tool I've bought since buying my Reynard.

My advice - Keep in mind what you have, what it will take to put it back on the track along with what improvements could be made without going overboard. I hope that you will find this a fun project, I know I've found mine to be a refuge in what can be at times a crazy world.

[bryancohnracing]

Mike,

I did a rebuild on the ex Defer/Baby Doc car for a customer some years back and I did weld in a steel floor in the footwell for added strength. This car had added frame tubes up front as well to add support.

In the end we went ahead and installed a .40 steel floor, welded in place. The tubes were swiss cheesed like everyone else's cars of this vintage, and full or rivets too. From memory I'd guess a coffee can full or dead rivets were removed from the frame. I sense a trend here...

I believe this car is running around in Michigan with WHRR.

Keith Williams (son of Charlie) did a rear suspension mod on my 88 Reynard FF. I think it was similar to the Kester changes. All I know is I wish I had it back!

[R. Pare]

In the end we went ahead and installed a .40 steel floor, welded in place.

Must have been a really tiny driver to require 140 pounds of ballast!

[bryancohnracing]

No, a crash prone gent with who liked to arrive 5 minutes before his session. He'd step out of his Ferrari already dressed, step into his car, I'd strap him in and off to grip he'd go.

At HPT, he had an off that took the floor off the car from the step to the firewall! That was just one of many offs.....

It was not as heavy as I thought it would be. The car came in about 40 over weight. He was happy and that what matters right?

[FC63F]

Yes - the car you are referring too is owned by Steve Myers who did a total ground up last winter and the steel floor was retained - Steve and the car have won the Great Lakes Challenge for CFC the last three years or so and Waterford Hills Road Race Championship and the SCCA Great Lakes Regional - car has a lot of trick items and he has done a lot of development. I do not know how many total races were on the car but Steve has run from 8-10 events a year for the last several years.

Last but not least - He is currently at the ARRC and was this afternoon running his first laps ever at Road Atlanta.

David Keep

[SWMyers]

Must have been a really tiny driver to require 140 pounds of ballast!

Actually I've never had a problem getting down to the minimum, even when it was 1,190. I crossed the scales at the WOR Games once right at minimum. Of course the car had all the trick parts: mag case, lighted CV's, hubs and rotors, aluminum rads, etc.

[rickb99]

Frog,

Thinking about 'weak spots' we've discoverd. Crack check or replace the lower A-arm brackets attached to the Hewland.

One of ours was cracked all the way through RIGHT under the bolts and impossible to see on a visual paddock inspection. It eventually 'slid' out from under the bolts and caused Jeff's one nasty spin and a pretzelized lower A-arm. They are aluminum after all.

[R. Pare]

It was not as heavy as I thought it would be. The car came in about 40 over weight. He was happy and that what matters right?

Bryan: I was point out your typo - a .40 thick floorpan instead of a .04 floorpan! About a 140 pound difference...............

Then again, a .40 thick floorpan will probably never get bent in a crash!

[aerobach]

.04 -- .40

"Pre-Law -- Pre-Med"

On a Reynard, it's all the same!!!

[Revs2-12k]

Frog, glad you've decided to rebuild! Your decision to rebuild seems to be a heartfelt one.

I'm subscribing to this thread, cause I want to learn, so please keep the details and pics coming!

I've also noticed that the terms racing + economic sense rarely appear in the same sentence.

[gord leach]

I've also noticed that the terms racing + economic sense rarely appear in the same sentence.

Sounds like you've been talking to my Wife

Gord

[aerobach]

Affordable Racing

[Purple Frog]

I just walked out of the Aircraft Spruce store/warehouse in Peachtree City, Georgia. My head is spinning... what a toy store! Sensory overload.

So now i'm leaning towards welding some 18 gauge strips on the inside of the bottom chassis rails and using a few hundred solid rivets along with the blind rivets into the rails.

Another phone call with the helpful Richard Pare, he acknowledged that in my case there is a forward cross tube immediately behind the front casting, so welding in a steel froor in that raised section would be a good safety feature.

I'm leaning towards painting the chassis versus powder coating. Some of the prep shops i called say paint is easier for future crack checking and modifications/repairs. Thanks Glen phillips.

I'm not decided on whether to weld up the old holes or try to copy their pattern onto the new sheet.

I can tell you that spending $.83 apiece for CherryMax rivets, versus $.07 for Avec rivets has me leaning towards Keith Averill's recommendation. We are talking over 300 rivets...

The .063 6061 T-6 arrives Tuesday. Enough fo two Reynard floors. So I might be selling the half i don't use, here on Apexspeed.

Tomorrow we'll be at the ARRC. That should help keep me excited about the rebuild.

Saving up the money for that large order i have to place with Mr. Averill.

[Purple Frog]

It's a shame i have to work for a living, or this would be proceeding faster.

I did weld steel in the floor of the forward raised area. Finished up all the other welding changes.
Media blasting is complete.
I was going to use the DP50 Grey epoxy primer. Then at the last minute...
I primed it with an etching primer and shot it in gloss black MSU single stage.

I'll try to shoot some pictures tomorrow. It's not "show car" quality, but looks a bunch better than when it was hanging from the hook at RRR.

It is sort of exciting to see it all shiny and on the road to be put back together instead of looking forlorne and beat up.

Now, it's just about money. But, there's so many little pieces that I want to clean up, and apply fresh paint, and that will take more time than money, so I should be able to stay busy while I save for those pieces I need from Averill, and that cam and flywheel...

[jim morgan]

Frog,
WTF, last time you totalled a car donations poured in! Have you lost the touch? As the Bernie Madoff of racing (sorry JP Sr. and the Widdington Bros.)you should net enough off this rebuild to support a joint Runoffs effort next year.