Honda engines in FF?

[openwheel]

-Thanks for the comments on my post guys, I respect what each of you had to say you make very sound arguments.

-I never told people if they don't like FF go somewhere else. Never did I say that. I was playing devil's advocate to see what the reasoning was for wanting Honda included in FF when there are already so many classes for Honda to play in already. I was glad to hear that some people still like the idea of a mechanical grip open wheel car. That is what I was fishing for.

-I never took up the elitest position that only National racers should have a vote on this. I think anyone currently running a FF or CFF regionally or nationally should have equal say. What I think some were having a problem with was Honda and their PR person getting Honda SSC or GT or whatever guys sending in letters. That has happened here.

-As for Ford not supporting FF over the past 20 years. I don't want to make excuses for them, but have any of you that are not cutting Ford any slack been involved in SCCA/Ford meetings the past 20 years. How do we know SCCA does not have some blame in that????????? How many CEO's has SCCA had the past 5 or so years? I ask those questions because it's a two way street. Besides what has Honda done the last 20 years. What is to say Honda will be around the next 40. They may be, but I don't understand that arguement at all.

-Again, let me say I like the concept of a modern engine upgrade especially for the regional guys. I totally understand why they are excited about it as it looks great on the surface. However, I just think that while the concept is great for the future of the class perhaps there are some things that need to be looked at before this proposal goes through. What is wrong with the Duratec? Maybe it does need to be the Honda but is allowing Honda the freedom to introduce any superceeded part they want a good idea??? Should SCCA just go ahead and make it the engine to have by a couple HP and then leave it at that so there isn't all the lobbying that went on with the Zetec in FC and all the rules adjustments that cost the racers additional thousands of dollars????

-Is it so bad to delay this vote until some of these addtional issues are worked out. Why not give Ford a chance to make their proposal???? Maybe the racers will get an even better deal with added contingency and or a better engine package and a more stable rule base.

[John LaRue]

Don't forget that one of the contributors to this site and I believe the person responsible for the broadcast of the Runoffs used to race in FF, namely Clark Camburn. If I am not mistaken when Clark was competing in FF in the late 90's his father (Bruce?) was the Director of Ford Motorsport. I believe he has since relinquished the position. It would seem to me that if something was going to come from Ford that would have been the time.

John

[M.Sauce]

Guys and Gals I was on the call last night and heard things from Ford I have always wanted to hear from them.I still have unanswered questions and I will find answers to them before a vote is brought at the BOD level.I heard many accusations from many of the people on the call.I heard self serving comments and reasonable questions.The Ford representative answered most with clarity and sureness.There is still much more to learn.Ford coming in at the 11th hour after Honda has made a postive presentation is somewhat suspect.But so be it timing is not always what you make of it.Continue to email the BOD and CRB with your comments.I always thought competition makes most things better but I want ultimately what is best for the class I have participated in for 26 years. Mike Sauce Area 7 Director

[Tom Valet]

So now we have a Petition that says calls were made by Ford, but nobody will say whom Ford called or what was said.

We have Mike A telling us he knows of big news from Ford but cant say.

Now we have Mike S telling us he heard direct from Ford things he has waited a long time to hear, but no details yet.

Are you guys all sworn to secrecy or is there some reason why nobody will say what Ford is intending?


Come on guys, spill the beans!

[kea]

John,
When Clark's dad was the big guy at Ford Racing (Clark was racing a DB-1), he asked SCCA about changing F/Ford to a newer Ford motor. They told him, if they were to make a change, than it would go out to an open bid among the different manufactures. Bruce, deceided to not rock the boat, and thus the Kent motor stayed.

[racer27]

The Honda proposal is already having positive benifit... A potential offering (I'll believe it when I see it) from Ford.

[dc]

Ford coming in at the 11th hour after Honda has made a postive presentation is somewhat suspect.But so be it timing is not always what you make of it.Continue to email the BOD and CRB with your comments.I always thought competition makes most things better but I want ultimately what is best for the class I have participated in for 26 years.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this more like the 13th hour? Didn't the deadline for 2010 rule changes pass in mid July? Is Ford trying to block Honda from adding to their propsal to this class? Did this all come about after it was obvious that the majority of the membership was in favor of a new engine?

I'm all for competition, but there is something to be said for fair play, too. Should be interesting to see how this all plays out.

[problemchild]

This could be a win-win for everybody!

New parts for those that think the class is just fine the way it is.

New engines for those that think the class is broken and needs fixing.

Hope for those that think Ford will show up.

Hope for those that long ago gave up on Ford.

Cheers!

[ric baribeault]

keith, thanks for the info. there's always so much that goes on behind the scenes that none of us are aware of. i wish the general membership was aware of this at that time. my feeling was that ford had abandoned the class and their renewed interest was only a result of honda's proposal. that aside, i have been on this forum for a long time, on many related threads, pushing for the introduction of a modern 3-5 year motor for FF. i really don't care who provides it, as long as it's done in a way that benefits the class.

[M.Sauce]

Tom- Once we have in writing the proposal from Ford we will make it available to all concerned.If it is not in writing then it is just hear say and hyperbole to me. Mike Sauce

[Stan Clayton]

Mike, is it really Ford versus Honda, in the sense that Ford are making an 11th hour bid to keep the BoD from a yes vote on the Honda? Or is Ford jumping into the fray with their own new engine to run alongside the Fit and Kent?

I sure hope it's the latter. A de-turbo'd Ecoboost 1.6 with 4 valves and direct injection would be an awesome addition to the class!

[Matt King]

My sources at Ford tell me they are floating a proposal to remanufacture Kent blocks that was already in the works over in Europe.

[ric baribeault]

.....more tractor motors. like i said before, american company mentality. their vision is limited to next quarters bottom line.

[Stan Clayton]

Mike, is it really Ford versus Honda, in the sense that Ford are making an 11th hour bid to keep the BoD from a yes vote on the Honda? Or is Ford jumping into the fray with their own new engine to run alongside the Fit and Kent?

I sure hope it's the latter. A de-turbo'd Ecoboost 1.6 with 4 valves and direct injection would be an awesome addition to the class!

After posting the above, I did some calling around to find out who participated in this private conference call between a Ford Rep and several interested SCCA members (hosted by Mr Kephart and including some engine builders (tho NOT QS...why not?), chassis builders, and Mike Sauce). I then called some of them and got two to talk with me about the call. Here is the juice...

Ford's senior management have approved casting new Kent blocks for the industrial and international vintage motorsports markets (of which they appear to consider SCCA a part of...). No new engine. No cranks, cams, rod, pistons, etc. Just blocks, due out in the 3rd quarter of 2010.

Oh, and they are asking SCCA' BoD to delay a decision on the Honda for a year to let the supply of Kent blocks to catch up with demand. Ain't that swell?

One more thing...no support for the Club. No contingency program. No nothing. Nada. Zip. Just a kick in the ass and the promise to keep teh ebil Honduh away.

I feel way better that a new Kent's price will drop from $14,000 to $13,000.

How you doin'?

[rmccown]

From the guys that brought you the Mustang II.

[PaulT]

No cranks, cams, rod, pistons, etc. Just blocks

Not that this changes anything... but we don't really need pistons or cranks do we?

We have forged pistons which are way better than the old cast Ford ones.
And a steel SCAT crank, which is also way better than the old ones.

Rods and cams may be useful. Though the Pegasus lists these, it may be useful to bring down the price...

Paul

[ric baribeault]

....it's still a 40 year old tractor motor!

[PaulT]

....it's still a 40 year old tractor motor!

The same old tractor motor that was in every FF that anyone has raced in the last 40 years.

Just to clarify, it would be cool to see you National and Regional guys running a Honda, but it will never be approved for my vintage tractor. And since I'm not SCCA I don't get a vote.

I am succumbing to FUD.

Paul

[Bill Steele]

My take is new blocks are better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick, actually, way better.

Kents are going to be running in SCCA and other venues for decades to come. Who cares why they decided to start building blocks, new blocks are great news.

[PCalhoun]

Rods and cams may be useful.

Paul

Actually these two items are also already approved for aftermarket parts in GCR section 9.1.1 if they match the OE components:

g. Camshaft

6. A camshaft that is a replica of the original camshaft and of the same material may be used.

j. Connecting Rods
Any ferrous connecting rod may be used provided it meets a minimum
weight of 630 grams and has a center to center length of 4.925 +/-0.020 inches. (Note: Weights include cap, bolts, and small end bush, but not big end bearing shells).

[ric baribeault]

exactly......40 years. couldn't have said it better myself. and how many of those years as the ugly red-headed step children of Ford?

my last statement on this subject. no new motor....i'm out of FF

[Stan Clayton]

Good discussion about the minor engine parts, guys, but my point was that Ford are not promising to support Formula Ford. They haven't made the emotional commitment to continue to support a class that has been loyal to them for decades. No. Not like Cosworth with the BD-series...where they still make every single piece 4 decades after the fact. Or Hewland, who continue to support every gearbox they ever made.

Ford is just filling the engine block needs of the Bobcat market for industrial engines...a laudable business decision. Oh yeah...and those vintage motorsports groups. Still, this is the company whose director once infamously asked their CEO, "Who is this Mr. Edmund Irvine Jr., our highest paid employee?"

Ford don't care about you. They don't care about SCCA. They don't care about racing. They didn't even know you existed for 20 years, and your loyalty to them is misplaced IMO.

Are Honda any better? I don't know yet. But I know this...if the BoD tells Honda to get lost we as a Club will have lost major benefactor that we could have had support us for decades, like Mazda. Do that and Honda will tell us to go pound sand and take their money elsewhere.

Hey Mike, remember what happened when one of our esteemed Directors told Mazda that they needed us more than we needed them? They took their money to NASA. Please do not treat Honda like some kind of interloper or red-headed step-child. This is your opportunity to convert FF to an "evergreen" format that survives for the ages as the best entry-level open wheel training class on the face of the planet. It takes some vision and it takes some leadership...which is what we elected you to exercise.

Your friend, Stan

[jivey]

Sorry Stan, You have incorrect information on the conference call.-- And also you WERE involved in the approval of the crank,pistons,regrinding the cams to the proper SCCA spec and the con.rods,rocker pedestal etc. Thank You for that because it has tremendously improved the reliability and affordability for the FF classes that use those rules only for their technical guidelines.--Respectfully --Jay

[Stan Clayton]

Sorry Stan, You have incorrect information on the conference call.

Please set us straight, Jay, as it's always better to have first-hand information. What info do I have wrong?

And also you WERE involved in the approval of the crank,pistons,regrinding the cams to the proper SCCA spec and the con.rods,rocker pedestal etc. Thank You for that because it has tremendously improved the reliability and affordability for the FF classes that use those rules only for their technical guidelines.--Respectfully --Jay

Yes I was involved, Jay, and I am proud of my contributions to the class. Unfortunately, we on the CRB felt we had to approve those new parts because Ford had abandoned the class. There were no OEM cams, pistons or rods available, so you and others stepped up to ensure reliable sources of those parts, and the class is better off for it.

So why should the Club say no to Honda?

[jivey]

Stan--That's what's great about FF. We can take care of our self.-- With a little help from our friends -- when needed. Ford just happened to put in place the people that give a damn. The people from honda could be gone in a year. -- Then who's going to take care of you guy's. The same people that have for 40 years. ALL OF US. This just hasn't been a corporate decision for Ford. This is a decision from people that want to help. ---Jay

[John Robinson II]

I was also part of the conference call and Ford did mention the possibility of a new engine, well actually one that is already in use. It was along the lines of a "world wide spec FF", the duratec as used in England and now being introduced to India. The downside is that it will not fit in our chassis. So a 12,000 engine conversion becomes a 55,000 new car. There was lots said in the meeting and I am sure every one took different things from it which is why we need a proposal in writing. I spoke with a few other participants only to find that things I thought Ford said were in the works were just suggestions of what might happen. At one point I thought I was on a reality show...pitchmen.

The one clear point was that the decision has not been made yet, so send in your ;etters, for or against and be sure to state that you are a FF competitor as they are researching who sent letters to make sure that it is FF competitors that will shape the class of the future.

John Robinson II

PS Tony C had what I felt was the best comment of the call, what is needed is a stepping stone system that funnels all the up and coming future race drivers through a non-winged set up based class. Right now FF is not an option. Maybe a world wide based class is the way to go, but it would mean a change in "our" rules to conform to the majority.

[Stan Clayton]

Oh, and they are asking SCCA' BoD to delay a decision on the Honda for a year to let the supply of Kent blocks to catch up with demand.

Since last night I have learned that this statement is incomplete. In addition to letting Ford catch up with demand for Kent blocks, I have been told that Ford's rep on the conference call (Al Slankard...I'm told the same Ford rep who was at the Runoffs) DID in fact mention a new Ford engine for the class...the 1600cc 4-valve Duratec as run in British, Oz and other FF clubs.

If Ford want to bring this engine in for 2011, I say great! The more the merrier!

But it won't fix the Kent problem. No matter how cheap the new blocks are, those engines will still cost $10,000-plus once race-prepped, and they will still require valve lapping every 10 hours or less and an expensive rebuild every 30-50 hours or less.

Give me an engine that will run competitively for 5-10 years with only an annual oil change and I will consider putting one in my Zink and bringing it back to FF. But I've already got one White Elephant engine in my Ralt and won't put another one in my Zink.

[Art Smith]

where are the 2009 SCCA National participation numbers YTD or at least pre-RunOffs?? actual 2009 participation numbers seems like a useful bit of data for the debate that rages on. it's hard to imagine why a top 5 (guess) class is the current target of the proponents of change. there's at least 20 current National classes that are more appropriate targets including a new class based on cheap modern (fuel injection and overhead cams) engines that are still in production. if the alternate engine being marketed for inclusion in FF is truly the better mouse trap its proponents claim, than surely the BOD can be prevailed upon to provide a sweetheart deal to this group as was done for FB granting them immediate National status for their new class..........................................

I also wonder what standard is being used for "competitor" as reported by JRII: driver; prep shop; crew chief; car(s) owner; supplier; ...........

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[Stan Clayton]

where are the 2009 SCCA National participation numbers YTD or at least pre-RunOffs??

SCCA National Participation YTD

[Mark_Silverberg]

Stan,

Actually I believe that would by Andy Slankard who is an engineering supervisor at Ford Racing and was previously the chassis supervisor on the Focus SVT. Andy is a real racer who has run a spec focus in NASA. Andy was a client when I worked at Ford and he is a good guy with a lot of energy and passion. Can he make Kent blocks appear? I don't know - probably if can put a business case together with Ford Power Products and their need to serve their industrial clients (There are probably more Kent engines in Tennant sweepers in the US then in all the formula fords ever run). I believe the AL kent head was in response to the industrial market - not the racing market.

Will the kent ever be part of Ford's core grass roots racing strategy - NO - never. OEM's are only interested (with the Exception of NASCAR) in racing what they are making - either vehicles or engines - it is the only way they can make any money.

[Tom Valet]

SCCA National Participation YTD

The final FF numbers for 2009 will be skewed by the 40th reunion National race, where 80+ entries took the green.

[Stan Clayton]

You're probably correct about Andy vs Al, Mark...my info is second hand.

I also agree that Ford are not really in the racing business, which strikes me as perfectly rational. Aside from some passionate individuals inside the company, Ford are in the businesses of making vehicles, engines and loans. If a tiny sliver of that business is supplying engines to the vintage car racing market, well...that's okay with them, but I agree that there is no passion for it on the part of the company.

[S Lathrop]

I would like to pass on my observations about the Honda program.

I have not seen this much interest in getting back to the track in FF in the last 20 years. I am getting calls from people about putting the Fit engine in every thing I have made. I have had calls from people wanting to change cars to FF. These are people ready to vote their approval with dollars and go the the track when this thing passes.

In contrast, I built Scott Rubenzer's Citation in 1994 and since then I have almost had an unbroken string of podium and top 5 finished, including 2 national championships. None of that has brought the interest in FF that the Honda proposal has.

I have been involved with FF since I purchases my first car FF, a US built car, in 1970. I started producing cars with Ed Zink in 1973. We turned out 30 cars in a single year -- Carl Haas did 150 that same year. Nothing is going to bring those days back but this might be the best that is possible.

The Honda package has the advantage of being smaller than the Kent engine. I already have the adapter done to bolt the Fit in place of the Kent in a Zink Z10. It will take less than a day to make and install the front engine mounts.

The Fit engine in a Z10 will cost less than $8000, a $200 adapter plate and new input shaft and you are ready to install the engine. For the exhaust system you can get the parts at NAPA to built it, less than $50.

[Matt King]

Ford actually is heavily involved in racing, to the point that Ford Racing builds, sells and supports three different turn-key, race ready Mustang race cars--the FR500C for Koni Challenge, the FR500S for the Mustang Challenge series (which it supports with technical support and contingency) and the FR500CJ NHRA Stocker, all built on current production chassis and using production based engines. The key words there being current production.

[Art Smith]

Tom-

I agree there's a constructive bias in this year's FF participation numbers only if the SCCA reverts to it's usual ways. why can't 40-60 car FF fields be the community's expectation for the CAT Nationals each and every year? inversion of the business plan that's killing SCCA National racing isn't rocket science: quality track time, large competitive fields, and a customer service focused host.
1.) offer FF exclusive run groups for practice and qualifying (NO F500's, FV's, FS's, FH's)
2.) premier reasonably centrally located venue that is also the home for the Sprints and RunOffs, Road America
3.) outstanding customer service focused hosts; from all accounts the Milwaukee Region ran a approaching flawless CAT National/Restricted Regional (aka: 40th)

FF's are being raced in large number every where except SCCA National racing. the 40th proved large competitive fields coupled with exclusive (almost) run groups at a premier facility can still draw large fields of FF's to an SCCA event. with all the discussion of hard tires, imagine the potential size of the fields with everyone on the same tires.....................................

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

ps: note that the third and fourth groups in year to date SCCA National participation have the oldest engines. note also that $1000 motorcycle engines haven't resulted in the promised/forecast explosive growth in SCCA National participation envisioned by the proponents of changes

[stonebridge20]

After posting the above, I did some calling around to find out who participated in this private conference call between a Ford Rep and several interested SCCA members (hosted by Mr Kephart and including some engine builders (tho NOT QS...why not?), chassis builders, and Mike Sauce). I then called some of them and got two to talk with me about the call. Here is the juice...

Ford's senior management have approved casting new Kent blocks for the industrial and international vintage motorsports markets (of which they appear to consider SCCA a part of...). No new engine. No cranks, cams, rod, pistons, etc. Just blocks, due out in the 3rd quarter of 2010.

Oh, and they are asking SCCA' BoD to delay a decision on the Honda for a year to let the supply of Kent blocks to catch up with demand. Ain't that swell?

One more thing...no support for the Club. No contingency program. No nothing. Nada. Zip. Just a kick in the ass and the promise to keep teh ebil Honduh away.

I feel way better that a new Kent's price will drop from $14,000 to $13,000.

How you doin'?

Stan, You are so misinformed. You really should have done a little more homework before you brought Fords proposal out into the public eye. I was on the call from begining to probably the last person to hang up. The call lasted 2 and a half hours. I know what was said because I heard it with my own two ears.The only thing you have correct is the fact of new blocks coming.
The reason I have not posted anything about the call is because it's just second hand hearsay coming from me until Ford puts it in writing. I didn't think any more hearsay "fact" would benifit anybody pro or con to the Honda proposal. That's why I kept my mouth shut. Let Ford speak for themselves. God forbid if it turned out to be better than what Honda is proposing!

[Stan Clayton]

Mike, you say I have everything wrong except Ford's plans to reproduce the Kent block. What exactly am I misinformed about? Specifically...

1. Was not Mr Slankard the Ford rep on the call? Did not Bill Kephart host the call? Were not engine builders, chassis constructors, several competitors and Mike Sauce on the call?
2. Did not Mr Slankard urge the conferees to press the BoD to NOT approve the Honda package?
3. Did not Mr Slankard talk about offering the Duratec FF engine for 2011? Did he offer the outlines of or even vague reference to a contingency program? (I'd love to have bad info about that!)
4. Will not the price of a new Kent drop from its current $14,000-plus with a newly cast block?

As for your implication that I should stay quiet until and if a formal proposal comes out, I say bollocks! No one hesitated to excoriate Honda when rumors of them appearing at the 40th surfaced. Why should Ford get a pass on the same level of scrutiny and speculation?

Let me tell you why I think you and Mike Sauce and the other conference call participants are staying quiet. I think the Ford rep asked you to stay quiet because he hasn't sold Ford's senior management on his plans yet, and is not in a position to promise you ANYTHING beyond the new blocks, which Ford had already decided to build. In other words, you collectively bought a pig in a poke because Mr Slankard told you what you wanted to hear, and you are now praying that Ford will come up with something, anything to keep the Honda out.

Personally, I hope Ford does bring a new engine to the class in 2011, but I don't see that possibility or the arrival of new blocks as reason to delay a decision on the Fit.

If Ford do NOT bring out a new FF engine the class remains moribund because of the high purchase price of the Kent and its high ongoing maintenance costs.

If Ford DO bring out a new FF engine, all of the issues raised about the Honda in these hundreds of posts will apply to that engine as well. How will you deal with an engine that already makes 140 hp in Formula Ford? When the UK brought in the Duratec it was an entirely new car to the Kent version. Not just does it make 140 hp; it has alloy calipers and a 5-sp sequential gearbox. Are Ford going to want those features brought to SCCA FF as well? Or just the engine? And how will the engine be dumbed down to 112-ish hp?

How much will the engine cost to buy and install? Will Ford subsidize the cost? How reliable will it be, and how long will it go between rebuilds? Will it fit all the chassis in service? Will Ford demand that it have an advantage over the Kent? Will Ford demand that there be a phase-in period, after which the Kent won't be allowed, like they did to the Renault in SFR?

In other words, Mike, you guys that are cheering for the home team better be doing your due diligence and asking the hard questions, as has been done to Honda, or you're just being played for fools.

[John Robinson II]

Mike, you say I have everything wrong except Ford's plans to reproduce the Kent block. What exactly am I misinformed about? Specifically...

1. Was not Mr Slankard the Ford rep on the call? Did not Bill Kephart host the call? Were not engine builders, chassis constructors, several competitors and Mike Sauce on the call? YES
2. Did not Mr Slankard urge the conferees to press the BoD to NOT approve the Honda package? No, he asked to delay the vote, until ford could make a pitch
3. Did not Mr Slankard talk about offering the Duratec FF engine for 2011? Did he offer the outlines of or even vague reference to a contingency program? (I'd love to have bad info about that!) YES
4. Will not the price of a new Kent drop from its current $14,000-plus with a newly cast block? DOUBTFUL, blocks are out there, and cheaper then the quoted price range, but more machining might be needed.

As for your implication that I should stay quiet until and if a formal proposal comes out, I say bollocks! No one hesitated to excoriate Honda when rumors of them appearing at the 40th surfaced. Why should Ford get a pass on the same level of scrutiny and speculation?

Let me tell you why I think you and Mike Sauce and the other conference call participants are staying quiet. I think the Ford rep asked you to stay quiet because he hasn't sold Ford's senior management on his plans yet, and is not in a position to promise you ANYTHING beyond the new blocks, which Ford had already decided to build. In other words, you collectively bought a pig in a poke because Mr Slankard told you what you wanted to hear, and you are now praying that Ford will come up with something, anything to keep the Honda out. I really dont know why nothing but tidbits has been mentioned here, Kephart joked that the conversation would be all over Apex by midnight... Unless all the "good" forces are quietly amassing to over throw the"bad" pro honda forces. Andy did ask that we all send in more letters and to get all involved with FF to send in letters requesting for the delay. He did not, at least from what I remember, ask to vote down the honda proposal.

Personally, I hope Ford does bring a new engine to the class in 2011, but I don't see that possibility or the arrival of new blocks as reason to delay a decision on the Fit.

If Ford do NOT bring out a new FF engine the class remains moribund because of the high purchase price of the Kent and its high ongoing maintenance costs.

If Ford DO bring out a new FF engine, all of the issues raised about the Honda in these hundreds of posts will apply to that engine as well. How will you deal with an engine that already makes 140 hp in Formula Ford? When the UK brought in the Duratec it was an entirely new car to the Kent version. Not just does it make 140 hp; it has alloy calipers and a 5-sp sequential gearbox. Are Ford going to want those features brought to SCCA FF as well? Or just the engine? And how will the engine be dumbed down to 112-ish hp?

How much will the engine cost to buy and install? Will Ford subsidize the cost? How reliable will it be, and how long will it go between rebuilds? Will it fit all the chassis in service? Will Ford demand that it have an advantage over the Kent? Will Ford demand that there be a phase-in period, after which the Kent won't be allowed, like they did to the Renault in SFR? My understanding is that the duratec will not fit in our chassis, so a new chassis will be needed, but that is ok, it will bring us in line with the "global" market known as FF racing.

In other words, Mike, you guys that are cheering for the home team better be doing your due diligence and asking the hard questions, as has been done to Honda, or you're just being played for fools.

I doubt any hard questions are beong asked, we just assumed that the duratec could be dumbed down to 155ish hp and everything would be just peachy, because it is a FORD. The class would remain FFord and after race events all the cometitors will join hands in a big loving circle and chant "long live Ford, our savior."

Stan, I think you pretty much got the jest of the call. There was a lot of comments made about what ford could do and how things have now changed with the new management.

I will state here that I am a Ford supporter. 2 of my 3 vehicles are Ford products. They are the best solution for the vehicles I need, but I dont think the duratec is the best solution for our racecar problem. Honda has a product that will fit in our existing chassis and has/is doing their homework to make it work. I am not a shill for Honda, if Ford was to present a motor that will retro fit in existing chassis then great, but if Hyundai, Kia, Toyota, BMW, VW et al propose the same thing then they should be reviewed as well.

I probably wont be invited to the next revival meeting, er, I mean conference call, but that is ok. I am not invited to any of the CRB or BOD calls either.

If you really want to know what the future of FF is in the US, then ask Jay Ivey why he was not present at the runoffs. This is no knock on Jay or ANY of the herculian efforts he has made to keep FF a viable class here. My Ivey, I applaude your efforts and your passion for the class. It is because of people like Jay that FF IS as strong a class as it is today.

John

[Bill Steele]

JR II, thanks for clearing things up.

Could somebody bring me up to speed why it is OK for Ford to "potentially" propose a new engine and it isn't OK for Honda to propose a new engine?

When I read Jay Ivey's letter, it didn't say anything about how great it would be to have a Ford Duratec (or any other "modern" ford motor) as a replacement to the Kent.

[Stan Clayton]

Thank you, John. I am confident that I speak for many when I say that I appreciate your candid first-person appraisal of the call. It's also good to know that in spite of what Mike wrote, I did in fact get all but some fine points of the puzzle together correctly.

So let's summarize. Ford want the Fit decision "delayed" so they can pitch a new engine. In other words, Ford want to keep the class "Ford-only". Understandable on their part, but a big mistake IMO. Why? Because in a few years management will change as it always does, and there is no guarantee that Ford will not tell us to get lost again.

Moreover, it is clear to me from what you write and from what I have been told that Andy Slankard needs that year's delay to sell the idea to Ford's current management, NOT the Club! If it were a matter of presenting the technical proposal to SCCA, they could have dusted off the UK specs, changed the hp to 115 and had it posted within a week of Honda going public. But they didn't, because Andy hasn't gotten buy-in from his bosses!

I am not a shill for Honda, if Ford was to present a motor that will retro fit in existing chassis then great, but if Hyundai, Kia, Toyota, BMW, VW et al propose the same thing then they should be reviewed as well.

I agree 100%. The only "guarantee" that FF will remain viable long-term is to assure a steady supply of competitive and affordable engines. There are only two practical ways to do that...own the rights to critical designs so you can produce them forever, free of the whims of external corporate management, or create an open, performance-based "engine formula" that allows new engines to come in at will so long as they meet the criteria laid out for the class.

Thanks again!