Honda Letter from Runoffs

[SpeedAddict82]

Below is the body of the letter written after many discussions among drivers, with CRB members, and with Honda at the Runoffs. This letter was signed by most of the Runoffs drivers and is being forwarded to the CRB and BOD.

Every FORMULA FORD driver with a well thought, educated opinion on the subject needs to write both the CRB and BOD. Per two area directors, personal letters carry a lot of weight. Please write.


SCCA Competition Racing Board
SCCA Board of Directors


September 27, 2009

2009 Formula Ford National Championship Runoffs Entrants


RE: Introduction of Honda Fit engine into Formula Ford


Dear members of the CRB and BOD:

After weeks of due consideration and group discussion about the introduction of the Honda Fit engine into our class, the undersigned drivers agree that the current proposal for inclusion of the engine is not in the best interest of the future of Formula Ford.

Please consider the following points in your evaluation of the proposal from Honda. These items have been thoughtfully addressed by each of the undersigned and represent our unanimous concerns.

• Formula Ford as currently regulated by the GCR represents a stable, successful formula that has endured for over 40 years. FF ranks third in the number of National race entries. This is largely due to the rules allowing only one engine.
• There is a rumor of parts shortages for the current Ford Kent engine, however this is only a rumor. There are parts accessible and readily available to build competitive engines. There are more than plenty of engine blocks available at this time for new engines. Furthermore, calls have been made by Ford and they are capable and willing to make a production run of Kent blocks and other parts for our use.
• Honda Performance is an aggressive entity that is in motorsports to win. Their interest in building a formula car based around their power plant is a very interesting concept that requires thorough and due consideration. Their interest is unique and appreciated. However disrupting the current formula for FF with the inclusion of a second engine only serves to divide the class and increase costs to compete.
• We have not seen or heard of a comprehensive plan of how to regulate and control the Honda engine. The Fit engine is more than capable of obsoleting the current Kent motors that have, and continue, to serve the class so well. If the Honda motor is restricted to allow the Kent to be competitive, how will SCCA ensure that Honda will not have the ability to dictate an adjustment to their engine that will give them a competitive advantage? Our concern is when Honda is tired of being beat by a 40 year old power plant, they won’t be prevented from forcing a rules change or modification to a “stock” Fit engine that allows them to win consistently. Note that under D.3.A.6 of the proposed rules, that “superseding part numbers are considered equivalent.” This wording clearly allows Honda to have an element of control of the rules.
• There is no economical sense. The Honda engine is being presented as an option to the class. However, the cost to convert from a current Ford engine represents more than half the value of most Nationally competitive Formula Fords. It represents close to the entire value of a Regionally competitive car. For instance, Honda is proposing to offer a new engine and conversion kit for a Swift DB-1, Swift DB-6, and late model Van Diemens for $12,000. Please note that after a lot of analysis and discussion with Honda we realize that this does not include the cost of: 1) basic spares for the engine’s computer system, sensors, ECU, wiring harnesses, and fuel pump 2) the cost of engine diagnostic equipment and software, 3) the secondary for the exhaust system, 4) incidental wiring and unforeseen parts, and 5) the labor required for the conversion. Depending on which driver you talk to, it is estimated that it will cost between $16,000 to $18,000 to convert a Swift. This cost includes $12,000 for the kit, $3,000 for Honda’s recommended spares, and $1,000-$3000 for incidentals including unforeseen modifications to chassis, powertrain, bodywork, existing wiring, etc. Current manufacturers such as Piper and Citation are working to integrate the engine into their current designs. All other cars are on their own to convert to the Fit engine.
• For more detailed information on the break-even period for the investment to convert versus the current operating costs of the Kent, please see the attached page.

The argument could be made that if it doesn’t make sense, don’t buy it. However Honda will be investing a lot of money in this endeavor. And they will want to see their engine winning National Championships. As in every type of motorsports, competitors find a way to win. The Honda Fit engine has the capability of dominating the class and will eventually force all Formula Fords to convert to the Honda to remain competitive. This will dictate a large investment. Many Formula Ford drivers will be unwilling to make this investment and may potentially abandon the class.

In closing, there are very valid concerns in what this proposal will do to the class. This proposal threatens the very fabric of the formula that has allowed the success of Formula Ford over the last 40 years. Please make this decision very carefully.

[Jim Nash]

• There is a rumor of parts shortages for the current Ford Kent engine, however this is only a rumor. There are parts accessible and readily available to build competitive engines. There are more than plenty of engine blocks available at this time for new engines. Furthermore, calls have been made by Ford and they are capable and willing to make a production run of Kent blocks and other parts for our use.
.

Has Ford made a public announcement about making a run of Kent blocks? What is the price? This would be good news for FF. However, this has been "rumored" for years and yet to be realized. I have often heard the tooling was destroyed. Something directly from Ford would help. Otherwise it's kind of worthless.

Jim Nash

[Tim FF19]

Your post states that 'Most' of the Runoffs drivers signed this letter. Can you post which drivers signed the letter?

[lbrtruck]

Interesting - At this point I would say -- Mazda ' created ' Formula Mazda - Let Honda become Formula Honda. Leave the Fords alone!

[John LaRue]

I find interesting the comment about an adequate supply of blocks; when I last searched for replacement blocks there were none to be found. Is there a new source other than the proposed run of blocks by Ford? If so, can someone post the inventory and costs? (Forgive me if this has already been asked and answered; I seem to recall that John from Pegasus had put something up to this effect previously.)

Given that such a project by Ford would require new tooling and would certainly incorporate new technology in casting, machining and metallugry would we not expect the new blocks to be an advantage over the 40 year old ones we currently are using? What are their requirements for making a run? I can't imagine this would be a cheap endeavour.

John

[Wren]

It's interesting that they decide to include the purchase of spares in their total cost to convert. I think that the Fit makes even more sense when you consider the cost of the spare engine that most of those guys carry around.

I call on the new blocks.

[Tom Valet]

This letter was signed by most of the Runoffs drivers and is being forwarded to the CRB and BOD.

Furthermore, calls have been made by Ford and they are capable and willing to make a production run of Kent blocks and other parts for our use.

First, can you please identify yourself. It really irks me when someone creates a new user account for the sole purpose of making statements that he doesnt want to stand behind with his real name. I know that Bill Kephart organized the Petition, but who is posting these statements here? Not putting your name to these statements hurts your credibility.

Can you please identify the drivers who signed the Petition, since you assert that "most" of them signed. The Petition we were presented with had only 3 signatures on it on Sunday morning, so if there was more than one copy being circulated, I have no idea how many signed nor whose names were on it.

For the record, neither I, nor my son Bill nor Jim Little signed the Petition.

Also, you state that "calls have been made by Ford" Whom did Ford call? Why did they call? And what representations have been made by Ford about producing additional Kent blocks?

Thanks

Tom Valet

[Tim FF19]

Given that such a project by Ford would require new tooling and would certainly incorporate new technology in casting, machining and metallugry would we not expect the new blocks to be an advantage over the 40 year old ones we currently are using? What are their requirements for making a run? I can't imagine this would be a cheap endeavour.

John[/quote]


I think John is correct in his assesment of obtaining blocks and other components from Ford. Talk is cheap but I doubt a block from FoMoCo would be. FoMoCo has not shown any serious interest in this class since I have been involved (1982) so why would they get involved now? Honda is showing their commitment to the FF community with action. Count me with the group the wants the FIT. (I have expressed this to the CRB).

Tim Dunn

[racer27]

Has Ford made a public announcement about making a run of Kent blocks? What is the price? This would be good news for FF. However, this has been "rumored" for years and yet to be realized. I have often heard the tooling was destroyed. Something directly from Ford would help. Otherwise it's kind of worthless.

Jim Nash

I've seen articles and public announcments (Racer, Speed TC, SportCar, etc) all over regarding HONDA's plans... Where can I find any official Ford anouncment regarding producing and making availaible at reasoanble price such blocks?

[Bill Bonow]

Tom,

Just a guess, SpeedAddict82 = David Livingston

[Wren]

Tom,

Just a guess, SpeedAddict82 = David Livingston

David Livingston already posts under dlivingston82

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/member.php?u=8440

[Bill Bonow]

My clues leading to this conclusion were under his profile:

Name = David, Location = Nashville, TN

But, I've been wrong more often than right

P.S. I'd bet that pile of shinny new Kent blocks is in the same magical warehouse as all those long lost FV parts that the FV diehards claim to be "on-the-shelf"

[thewarehouse]

Okay, I hate rumors, so I'm not going to say what bits and pieces I heard on Sunday. But I spent about 1/2 chasing some Ford Racing guy around on his golf cart. He was talking to the FF teams just before lunch.

What was he doing there and what was he talking about????

[-pru-]

David Livingston already posts under dlivingston82

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/member.php?u=8440

David Livingston SR = SpeedAddict82
David Livingston JR = dlivingston82

[Wren]

My clues leading to this conclusion were under his profile:

Name = David, Location = Nashville, TN

But, I've been wrong more often than right

I had the same thought, so I went and looked it up. I think there is a good chance that we are both right. I should probably get Doug to add my last name to my user name so that people don't think I am not using my name.

[Tom Valet]

Dave, Jr., was one of the guys walking the Petition around to each of the drivers on Thursday, explaining his position against the Honda engine. If this is Dave's post, or even Dave, Srs, he should just put his name to it. Dave was very articulate about his position when we spoke with him, we just didnt agree with it and didnt want to sign.

[-pru-]

Okay, I hate rumors, so I'm not going to say what bits and pieces I heard on Sunday. But I spent about 1/2 chasing some Ford Racing guy around on his golf cart. He was talking to the FF teams just before lunch.

What was he doing there and what was he talking about????

Sorry, this post is just too perfect not to use these :

Seriously, I am curious regarding this story as well. That is, was this person officially representing Ford or simply a Ford employee (current / past) or associate...

[Tom Valet]

The only Ford person we saw or spoke with on Sunday was giving out Ford Motorsports hats. Nobody approached us about building us a new Kent block.

[thewarehouse]

He was from Ford for sure. I caught a glimpse of a business card. Kephart was driving the cart. C'mon somebody knows something!

[racer27]

I don't know if it still makes a differance but I just updated my letters resent. Figured if a Petition can be raised, I can re-voice my opinion with new input based on conversations with chassis and engine builders.

Adresses I sent letter to are: crb@scca.com; bod@scca.com

[Larry]

• There is a rumor of parts shortages for the current Ford Kent engine, however this is only a rumor. There are parts accessible and readily available to build competitive engines. There are more than plenty of engine blocks available at this time for new engines. Furthermore, calls have been made by Ford and they are capable and willing to make a production run of Kent blocks and other parts for our use.
__________________________________________________ ______________

We all KNOW for fact that there is a shortage of blocks. I haven't found a 711M block for three years. Prior to that, I managed to find only one or two/year. There have been other shortages, too (cams, heads). Last year I had to make several calls until I located a new, legal cam. Until such time as Ford makes an official announcement that they are going to commence production of 711M-equivalent blocks and provides a production rate and schedule, comments about "calls made by Ford" are specious and as such, should not be considered.

I was glad to see Tom's comment that he did not sign the petition, and that he identified that there were others at the Runoffs that did not sign. It sounds like the originator of the petition has overstated his case.

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[Tim FF19]

I have to say I am pretty insulted that Ford is showing ANY interest in this class considering their total lack of interest for 30+ years.

It's too late Ford. Where where you when we needed you?

Tim Dunn

[Purple Frog]

Honda has obviously jumped into this effort with both feet. They were at both the FF40th and the Runoffs with large labeled tents, engineers in uniform, exhibits of working parts, operational cars, etc. They were willing to talk to all comers about anything a person asked. All out in the open, visible.

Meanwhile, years after the horses are long gone out of the barn, supposedly one guy in a golf cart representing himself as Ford shows up on Sunday, to rebuild the barn and coax all the horses home.

Honda has put their proposals in writing and shown results. Ford is now lobbying to delay this decision so that they can get up to speed on something they abandoned.

OBTW, i say let every manufacturer in. If Sukuki, Nissan, Mazda, whoever wants to build a 1600 motor. Hand them a restrictor and let them have at it. Right now Honda has stepped up, so the Honda proposal is what the Club is considering.

There was some attitude at the Runoffs that only "serious" Formula Ford guys should be involved in this decision. "Serious" being defined loosely as currently owning and campaigning a Formula Ford, especially on a national level. I have some issue with that. I have two grandsons coming up, and i see FF as a possible entry point. So i have an interest.

If one is a Region executive putting on regional and national races, he/she also may have an interest in what might increase car counts. So he/she may have an interest.

[SteveLevin]

When I look at the spreadsheet, it appears that it makes a couple of assumptions --

First, that people wouldn't either run their existing Kent until it required overhaul, or remove it and sell it for any money while it is running.

Second, that Kent overhauls are stable and reliable over years at $3,500.00

Third, that most people will never damage a Kent beyond repair even over a span of more than a decade.

Fourth, that a Kent lasts half as long as a Fit will.

If you tinker with any of those assumptions much, the entire model in that spreadsheet can change radically.

Steve

[dc]

It also assumes that you have a Kent to begin with.

[Larry]

Very well stated! It's tough to build a case around "only the current drivers should vote" when one of the objectives should be to bring in new drivers. Many of the existing population want to protect the status quo only because they've got a possible monetary stake in the outcome...although I certainly see a large market for all existing Kent bits and pieces with the vintage folks.

The subsequent cost of operations analysis is accurate as well.

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[BWC54]

Honda has obviously jumped into this effort with both feet. They were at both the FF40th and the Runoffs with large labeled tents, engineers in uniform, exhibits of working parts, operational cars

cars like in plural? Did they have something in addition to the DB-1 that they had at the 40th?

[Purple Frog]

Honda had the new Citation chassis with the fit motor, bellousing, and gearbox installed on display at the Runoffs.

[RussMcB]

There was some attitude at the Runoffs that only "serious" Formula Ford guys should be involved in this decision. "Serious" being defined loosely as currently owning and campaigning a Formula Ford, especially on a national level. I have some issue with that. I have two grandsons coming up, and i see FF as a possible entry point. So i have an interest.

If one is a Region executive putting on regional and national races, he/she also may have an interest in what might increase car counts. So he/she may have an interest.

Another outside observer view point: I often look at rules things going on in other classes and want to know how the club deals with them. I'd like to see transparency, common sense, stability, etc. when changes are considered in every class. When changes don't go well (such as FC intakes, alum heads, etc.), it is disconcerting to all club members.

[RoadHazard]

There was some attitude at the Runoffs that only "serious" Formula Ford guys should be involved in this decision. "Serious" being defined loosely as currently owning and campaigning a Formula Ford, especially on a national level.

That's a very dangerous attitude that should be pulled out at the root. I don't want regional racers relegated to second-class status. Who says only the "serious racers" -- a self-appointed group, no doubt -- get to make the decisions for the rest of us? That smacks of elitism, at the very least.

We already have a CRB and a BoD to make these decisions on our behalf, based on member input. All members' input. Attendance at the Runoffs is not a requirement for membership, nor is it a pre-requisite for voting on Club matters.

[Bill Steele]

cars like in plural? Did they have something in addition to the DB-1 that they had at the 40th?

HPD has a VD chassis and a Swift DB6 chassis being converted as we post on this thread. I know Doug is planning for the Pipers to support the Fit.

I can't wait to see the run of shiny new Kent blocks at my local parts house.

Competition always improves living standards, even in club racing.

[carnut169]

Did a zetec will the runoffs or was it a Pinto? Did anyone quit FC because of the introduction of the zetec? Bet some joined because of it....

I've always been impressed at how Mazda supports racing Mazda powered vehicles, and disappointed by how Ford ignored Ford powered racers.

IE- Ford had nothing to do w/ creating an equal playing field w/ the zetec (that I know of)- people just got tired of an engine that had to be rebuilt every year, and a head that had to be done 2x a year so they found a better way.

We've got the same thing happening in FF, except Honda has stepped up to the plate in terms of support.

Saying no thanks, imho- makes no sense.

[Phil Wellner]

Third, that most people will never damage a Kent beyond repair even over a span of more than a decade.

Steve Wilson's recent post, complete with pictures of an utterly destroyed block, is a good argument for changing that assumption...

[MarkH]

Firstly, the disclosure statement.
I'm a vintage racer so come at this from a different viewpoint.

Having lived in the US for 13 years and travelled back to the UK on many occasions I can vouch for the fact that blocks are hard to find anywhere.
There have been talks over the last few years about a new block being available but talk is all it was.
The chances of Ford manufacturing a bunch of them for us is real slim so let's look at the alternatives.

As I see it this isn't a compulsory change, just an option.

[bryancohnracing]

---

[PaulT]

Its been a few years (probably 5 or 6), but there was a guy at a vintage event at Road America that was carrying around and showing off an aluminum 711M block he had made. It was intended to replace the block in a Lotus Twin cam application so only the first 2 cam bearing holes were properly machined. If I hadn't seen the block with my own eyes, I certainly wouldn't believe it existed.

But there's been nothing ever since, so I have a very hard time believing that new blocks are coming...

Paul

[John Duke]

I haven't weighed in on this string simply because I am not a current driver. I am however very interested in rejoining the ranks of 'current' driver vs. 'former' driver.

The frog has it right, let anyone who wants bring their best offering into the class. There are no long standing commitments from Ford, they have moved on and so should we.

Competition is a good thing (it seems that of all the people in the world racers should get that) and it helps reduce the cost when a) "A" manufacturer is actively involved and b) when more than one is engaged it is even more helpful.

I have waited for a couple of years now to purchase a car (either FF or FC) while watching this debate is not only interesting, it will likely settle the question whether I will purchase a car at this time. If there is a decision to allow such a reasonable entry by Honda who have demonstrated serious interest and research already, I will likely be there, if not, I will be an observer.

When I was much younger I threw considerations about cost to the wind and did whatever was necessary to go racin'. Now cost is a major consideration when it comes to optional activities roughly defined under the category of "FUN". I still have fun but only at a (somewhat) reasonable cost.

When reasonable questions about Ford blocks, etc. are left hanging with only 'impressions' and 'innuendo' or 'rumors' offered as an answer the sustainability of the entire situation is called into question. If the issue of sustainability is not answered the class will die. It will be gradual and there will be much griping and complaining that 'nobody did anything to save the class... and this opportunity as well as others will simply be a distant memory.

I will write a letter in support of the Honda engine proposal from the point of view of a potential participant if the club adapts and looks forward rather than backwards.

[Daryl DeArman]

Saying no thanks, imho- makes no sense.

Unless of course you have a significant investment or vested interest in the survival of the class as is. Then it makes perfect sense.

I see the desire of some of those who wish to maintain the status quo suggesting a new class if the Fit is really wanted. I'd suggest they take a hard look at that suggestion as objectively as possible. Any new open wheel blood coming into the sport likely to choose FF or FH? I really doubt it. Next time someone completely destroys a competitive Kent do you think they are going to search long and hard for a duplicate or go the Fit route? Do you think that 5-10 years down the road your FFord will have a date at the big dance if FHonda is created? Do you think if FFit goes away or isn't a threat to FF that new blocks would ever be produced?

Given the demographics of many of the FF racers I'd assume that 10 years down the road isn't much of a concern where FF will be.

[stonebridge20]

To put rumor to rest. The Ford Rep at the Runoffs is indeed a real person with a business card and everything. The "talk" about Ford Racing Technology producing a block for FF is very real and I'm sure more info will come out soon.

[Tim FF19]

A new block by itself is simply not enough to keep me interested in staying with Ford. I want fuel injection, coil packs and overhead cams.