Honda engines in FF?

[cooleyjb]

From the most recent fastrack
\

http://www.scca.com/documents/Fastra...strack-aug.pdf


Apparently there is a kit for teh DB1, cost 12,000 bucks and one is already done and will be shown off at the FF festival.

Nice to hear about this after the fact or did I miss something.

[Wren]

It has actually had me interested to the point that I have been looking around at cars(CF type stuff) for the last few weeks.

I know there are a lot of things to work out, and there will be a lot of resistance, but it has potential. I know the zetec thing took way longer to work out than originally promised and had some personalities involved that only made things worse, but I think it has been a net positive for the class and they finally have it close.

I know a FF competitor who paid $16k for his runoffs engine last year (carb-to-clutch) from a prominent builder and it is already going soft. There has to be some room for improvement over that.

I wonder what is in the $5050 engine conversion kit? Is that a one time expense? All parts required?

Any clue how long one of these might last?

Also- I predict more than 5 pages for this thread.

[Bernard Bradpiece]

Don't we usually do this in the winter?

[cooleyjb]

It has actually had me interested to the point that I have been looking around at cars(CF type stuff) for the last few weeks.

I know there are a lot of things to work out, and there will be a lot of resistance, but it has potential. I know the zetec thing took way longer to work out than originally promised and had some personalities involved that only made things worse, but I think it has been a net positive for the class and they finally have it close.

I know a FF competitor who paid $16k for his runoffs engine last year (carb-to-clutch) from a prominent builder and it is already going soft. There has to be some room for improvement over that.

I wonder what is in the $5050 engine conversion kit? Is that a one time expense? All parts required?

Any clue how long one of these might last?

Also- I predict more than 5 pages for this thread.

I think I'm in the same boat. It would be really nice to see an engine with the same longevity as teh Zetec, or longer.

Maybe since Honda proposed the change they could maybe do soemthing to subsidize the costs of the changeover for the intial roll out.

[Greg Mercurio]

Send your comments to the CRB.

crb@scca.com

Posting them here is like pissing in your wetsuit.

[Brad Ellingson]

Posting them here is like pissing in your wetsuit.

Maybe they are looking for that warm feeling...

[dc]

Woa. I just happen to have an empty one of these at home in need of a new engine.

[T644HU05]

Formula Fornda? Formula Honord? Formula Kentfit? Formula Fitent? I can't think what they would change the class name to.

[-pru-]

Proposal...

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

The CRB welcomes member comments, particularly from those directly involved in Formula Ford, on the following topic.

The CRB has received a proposal from Honda Performance Development (HPD) to include the Honda Fit 1.5 liter engine in the Formula Ford class. The proposal includes a general presentation of the concept, which is summarized below, and the specific FF rules changes that would be necessary. HPD has also submitted engine dynamometer graphs comparing a restricted Fit 1.5 liter engine and a current "National level" Kent FF engine. The restricted Fit engine produces slightly less horsepower than the Kent engine with a nearly identically shaped power curve. (The testing was done on the same dynamometer on the same day by a well known FF engine builder.) The Fit engine has been installed in a DB-1 chassis and has undergone over 200 miles of testing. HPD will present the car at Road America during the 40th Anniversary Formula Ford races, July 24-26. If member comment is favorable, the complete rules changes will be presented in a future FasTrack.

The CRB does not view this proposal to be in any way exclusive of similar future proposals for Formula Ford engines from other sources. Although the proposal includes an installation kit for the DB-1 and HPD may decide to produce kits for other chassis, use of the kit would not be required. The use of certain HPD parts would be required, but the base Fit engine could be acquired through other sources. Participants would be able to continue to use the Kent engine indefinitely. The rules for regional Club Formula Ford (and similar classes) would not be affected by this proposal unless regions chose to include it.

A Proposal for Incorporating the Honda Fit 1.5 Liter Engine in Formula Ford

Purpose: To phase in a new engine in the Formula Ford class that would substantially reduce the operating cost and extend the life of the class with a flow of new modern engines and replacement parts.

HPD’s plan is to enhance a nationally competitive formula with parity across multiple engine models with an easily manageable rules plan for SCCA. This proposal is a "turn key" engine solution with all parts (intake through to exhaust) being a mandated single source kit sold exclusively through HPD. This professionally designed "turn key" approach along with our established manufacturing supply chain reinforces our commitment to engine reliability, durability and a low operating cost.

The Honda Fit with the L15A7 engine is in the beginning of what is typically a six year production life cycle and has sales estimates of over 50,000 units per year. Long-term parts availability will be secure because Federal law requires manufacturers to supply replacement parts for a minimum of ten years after cessation of production.

This plan would bring a new, modern and reliable engine that requires minimal maintenance labor and cost, with an expected minimum 5,000 mile service range between rebuilds. It would have minimal impact for car owners by utilizing a chassisfriendly conversion that is a bolt-in design with components supplied in kit form and not requiring irreversible changes such as welding. Class involvement would be increased by greatly reducing engine maintenance and tuning. It could be of interest to car owners that have parked their cars due to current high operating costs and could make Formula Ford a cost effective "starter class" again.

Selected features of the proposal

No engine modifications, only standard rebuilds using stock parts allowed.

Stock Honda Fit flywheel and clutch.

HPD oil pan and dry sump lubrication system, available in kit form from HPD.

An HPD manufactured exhaust manifold is required. Headers, collectors and primary pipes are eliminated; cylinder head design incorporates a single exhaust outlet flange. Only exhaust pipes after the manifold need to be added.

An HPD supplied ECU and wiring loom is required. The ECU is sealed and maps can not be changed.

Fuel injectors are stock Honda Fit production items and may not be modified.

An HPD supplied Intake manifold, intake restrictor plate and throttle body is required.

Parts Kits and approximate costs

Part # 06200-F21S-A00 KIT $12,000
Complete kit for DB-1, which includes the following kits.

Part # 10000-F21S-A00 ENGINE ASSY $ 2,500
The base engine

Part # 06015-F21S-A00 KIT $ 5,050
Engine conversion kit

Part # 06020-F21S-A00 KIT $ 4,450
Chassis conversion kit

[dc]

Interesting looking engine in stock Fit configuration...

[glenn cooper]

they would probably still allow it to be called Formula Ford!

GC

[Jim Garry]

I have a feeling this is going to be a long thread ..........


Engine Type

Engine Block/Cylinder Head Aluminum-Alloy
Displacement (cc) 1497
Horsepower @ rpm (SAE net) 117 @ 6600 Torque (lb-ft @ rpm) 106 @ 4800
Redline (rpm) 6800
Bore and Stroke (mm) 73 x 89.4
Multi-Point Fuel Injection Standard
Drive-by-Wire™ Throttle System Standard
Front-Wheel Drive Standard
CARB Emissions Rating [1] ULEV-2
Direct Ignition System with Immobilizer Standard
100K +/- Miles No Scheduled Tune-Ups [2] Standard

[dc]

Please keep in mind everyone, that this is being proposed as an option engine to the Kent, with less power and longer life. This is not a proposal to eliminate the Kent engine, but to offer up a choice to those of us who aren't interested in playing the Kent engine game.


It's long overdue, IMO. Even with that steep entry price tag, it's something I would definitely seriously have to consider as long term plans for my car. The initial expense could easily be justified with almost no rebuild costs over many seasons.




Personally, I can't wait to see this car in person.

[-pru-]

The restricted Fit engine produces slightly less horsepower than the Kent engine with a nearly identically shaped power curve. (The testing was done on the same dynamometer on the same day by a well known FF engine builder.) The Fit engine has been installed in a DB-1 chassis and has undergone over 200 miles of testing. HPD will present the car at Road America during the 40th Anniversary Formula Ford races, July 24-26.

A couple of questions:

~ Which engine builder?
~ Who "donated" the chassis?
~ Who did the "200 miles of testing"
~ When / where did the testing occur?
~ Photo's of the install?

Come on, someone on here has the answers, and yes, we can "handle the truth"!

As a DB-1 owner, looking over the "Fit" conversion will be certain be high on my list of things "to do" at the 40th!

[dc]

I will post photos of the car here as soon as I have them in the camera on Friday.

I hope someone has something to post before then. I don't know if I can wait until this weekend.

[HazelNut]

Send your comments to the CRB.

crb@scca.com

sent!

pissing in your wetsuit.

DONE!

[-pru-]

Honda Perfomance Development, Inc

BACKGROUND: Honda Performance Development (HPD), a subsidiary of American Honda Motor Co., Inc., is the technical operations center for Honda's high-performance racing engines. HPD also coordinates Honda's participation in the IndyCar Series Racing.

FACILITY: HPD operates out of a 123,000-square-foot building in Santa Clarita, California and opened in late January 2005. The two-story structure houses comprehensive engine Research & Development operations, including engine design; development engineering; prototype and production parts manufacturing; race engine preparation and rebuilding; material analysis facilities; quality control inspection areas; five engine dynamometer test cells; machine shop; electronics lab; parts center; multiple meeting/conference rooms; and administrative offices.

KEY PERSONNEL: Erik Berkman, President
Jack Spurney, General Manager
Stephen Eriksen, Technical Director
Roger Griffiths, Manager, Development Division
Daisuke Horiuchi, Chief Engineer
Marc Sours, Manager, Production Division

Any guess as to the FF link within HPD? That is, who within the company is linked (past/present) to FF?

[-pru-]

Hmm...

Roger Griffiths
Manager, Development Division

A veteran engineer with experience in Formula One, endurance sports cars, and touring-car racing, Roger Griffiths came to Honda Performance Development in 2003 from the motorsports department of Aston Martin. He assumed the duties of Race Team Technical Leader, responsible for HPD's trackside operations and engineering team, and continues in that role today as Race Team Manager and Project Leader for Honda's IndyCar Series effort.

Griffiths is a 1991 engineering/design graduate from Loughborough University of Technology. After two years with Nissan's European Technology Centre, Griffiths joined Cosworth Racing as a trackside engineer for the Sauber F1 team from 1994-96. Four years with Ray Mallock Ltd., saw Griffiths gain experience in touring-car racing and he served later as design project leader for the RML P20 Supersports car.

He returned to Formula One in 1999 as project leader for the Minardi Formula One team, then as a race engineer with European Minardi in 2001. Griffiths was named Chief Engineer for the Team Ascari Le Mans Prototype program prior to joining Aston Martin and then HPD in 2003.

[cooleyjb]

Maybe we can get some good discussion going on this too. Yeah it's not going to affect what the CRB may do but it would help people like me get a better understanding of what's going on.


Right now I see the pluses and minuses.

Pros-

Engine Longevity
Not chasing the perfect head/parity
Bringing newer technology might bring in more drivers.
Factory Support from Honda??? Contingency, etc.

Cons

Initial Cost
Only DB1 kit currently. Would need to be soemthing that would work in the overwhelming majority of cars to be a good solution. Not just a few 'flavors of the week'.
It's not a ford motor, not a biggie but still it is Formula Ford
Competitive balance. Hasn't been the prettiest thing in FC with the Zetec.

[Dave Gomberg]

From the most recent fastrack

http://www.scca.com/documents/Fastra...strack-aug.pdf

Apparently there is a kit for the DB1, cost 12,000 bucks and one is already done and will be shown off at the FF festival.

Nice to hear about this after the fact or did I miss something.

No, Joe, you didn't miss anything. HPD sent the proposal to the BoD and CRB this month - barely in time for us to get it into the new FasTrack. Outside of HPD, the only ones who knew about it previously were the engine builder and the car owner.

Dave

[Dave Gomberg]

...

I wonder what is in the $5050 engine conversion kit? Is that a one time expense? All parts required?

Yes, it is a one-time expense. It includes all the required pieces (intake, restrictor, ecu, dry sump, exhaust manifold, etc. - only the pipe from the manifold is not included). The chassis conversion kit includes the Hewland adapter and all the parts to bolt it into the DB-1 (no welding required, no mods to the chassis required).

Any clue how long one of these might last?

No real data, of course, but multiple years of hard use at a minimum.

Dave

[SOseth]

This seems to me to be a much better fit (no pun intended) than the Zetec in FC. The power curve matches almost identically with a good Kent engine. (not the best Kent engine) I understand any person and/or any engine builder can purchase the necessary parts from Honda. This is, in my opinion is a huge step forward for the class.

SteveO

[Dave Gomberg]

they would probably still allow it to be called Formula Ford!

GC

More than "allow". It is what they want.

Dave

[dc]

Initial Cost

Yes, but would quickly be dispersed by the lack of engine rebuilds.

Only DB1 kit currently. Would need to be soemthing that would work in the overwhelming majority of cars to be a good solution. Not just a few 'flavors of the week'.

While not exactly the flavor of the week in FF, the DB1 the best place to start with new engine adaptation. There are more DB1s out there than just about everything else. With a solution that works in a DB1, everything else could be brought into scope following this chassis.

It's not a ford motor, not a biggie but still it is Formula Ford

Don't get hung up on the class name. Ford hasn't supported this class in my adult life. They are getting free press and exposure for an engine that hasn't been made in 29 years. Call it Formula F. Who cares about the name if it keeps the class alive and growing.

Competitive balance. Hasn't been the prettiest thing in FC with the Zetec.

Yes, but ask ANY FC driver who is in a Zetec now that raced a Pinto before and ask them which they prefer. In my experience, I don't know anyone who prefers the tractor motor in their car.



If the Fit engine could produce 112-115 hp out of the crate, and didn't need rebuilds for 5,000 miles, I think many would overlook the slight dip in performance. Besides, the DB1 is not pushing for a National title anytime soon, so I would guess that the target market is not the 10/10ths FF guy. Just a guess.

[stonebridge20]

FF = Formula Fit

[SteveG]

Looks like there's no where to go but up from the IRL and ALMS.

Formula Fit Forever.

[rmccown]

Anyone know, size-wise, how the Fit engine compares to the Kent? Curious, since I don't have a whole lot of space between the frame rails as it is.

[provamo]

end of an era......................forget the 50th

[Garey Guzman]

I got a write up on this last week but was sworn to secrecy pending the unveiling this weekend. I guess it got out a little sooner! As I recall, the two guys leading the charge on this are FF enthusiasts who happen to work at HPD. In fact, there is a former HPD manager who will be racing the Lola he's had since well before he retired. I think the write-up also mentioned that it will be doing some laps. It would be interesting to see how it compared with a kent-powered DB1 with similar drivers. I say we put a couple Runoff winners in them and run 'em!

Should be interesting to see the conversion. I wonder what the conversion does to the car's weight and balance....

[Rick Kirchner]

I called it (sort of) in Aug 2006:

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18347

post #48.......

[SOseth]

Anyone know, size-wise, how the Fit engine compares to the Kent? Curious, since I don't have a whole lot of space between the frame rails as it is.

The Honda engine is shorter than the Kent by about 3 inches. One of the reasons they chose to convert a DB-1 is because it would be one of the tighter installations.

SteveO

[Greg Mercurio]

Well who gives a good GDDM about rules stability anyway.

[-pru-]

Don't we usually do this in the winter?

I think it's a case of "Christmas in July"...

[dc]

Rules stability is great... just look at FV. No major rule changes since before I was born. Now even the engine builders can't find any of the parts that make those engines run. Great for the class. Should be really strong in the next 5-10 years.

</sarcasm>




Again, the Kent is not going away or changing or getting removed from the rulebook—just like the Pinto. If nothing else, it should bring the costs of second-hand Kents back to reality.




Anyone want a DB1 of their own to play with a Honda?

[-pru-]

Thanks for the feedback Garey!

A additional thoughts / questions regarding the HPD 1.5:

~ Fuel Injection
Improved throttle response vs the current light(est) Kent flywheel?
In cooler weather, FI has to be an advantage over the carb

~ Electronic Ignition
The Pertronix has made this less of an issue, but I believe the HPD 1.5 will be a marked improvement in reliability.

~ Rev Limiter?
I know most (if not all) of the Honda manual trans cars I have owned have a built in rev limiter. Will this be the case with the HPD 1.5?

~ Pump Gas?
It would be nice to run pump gas!

~ Weight?
I have to believe that the whole installation is lighter, but by how much over a aluminum head Kent?

~ Sound?
What is the difference between the Kent and HPD 1.5? There are a few road legal Honda's in Solo that seem much louder that my DB-1!

[mike g.]

I think I am all for this - until someone smarter tells me why it is a bad idea....

I am fearing a $5k rebuild this winter on a tired engine, only to run two or three seasons and shell out another $5k... and having to do the (most likely) more difficult maintenance on the 1600 for those years...

Also....One added benefit I haven't seen posted is, assuming it runs standard ECU/electronics - is that you can plug the ECU in for data acq in a plug-n-play config probably standard to the Honda [can?] bus....

I wonder what they sound like? If I put a Honda engine in there, does it come with a package of stickers and a racing stripe?

[RobLav]

Great idea. All for it.

[Dave Harmison]

I've had this discussion with my Spec Miata friends.

"What's stock?"

"Stock is stock!"

"Great, what does a piston weigh? What is the diameter of the intake and exhaust ports?"

My point being that HPD should provide (and be required to provide) every weight, dimension and specification that is currently written in the FF section of the GCR.

It is the ONLY way to keep "stock" stock.

Unless you want to go sealed engines like SRF, which I think also has its merits.

Granted, I am a Club Ford driver, but some day I'd like to try a modern car.

We should schedule a discussion (bar room brawl) of this at the 40th. Just joking.

[provamo]

dont forget the coffee can sized exhaust tip!

[mblanc]

I cry FOUL, NO FAIR, STOP !


It is completely unfair to even start this discussions, while anybody who IS anybody, is offline, and on their way to one of the best Formula Ford events ever.

I respectfully ask everybody to hold comment on this until AFTER the FF40th.

No doubt there are many issues to be discussed, but this weekend is about the

HISTORY OF FORMULA FORD !!!!

It is NOT about some proposal to rules, that may or may not ever be built and or raced.


Out of respect for the event, and the organizers, please, lets not have a wholesale discussion of this, while everybody that is seriously involved in Formula Ford is doing what everybody else wishes they were doing......... DRIVING TO THE RACE TRACK, THEN RACING,

In what is destined to be the best event ever.


Please discontinue this discussion here until 8:00 am Monday July 27th. Then have at it.