DefNder / PRI

[azjc]

Yes, cost is important. We struggle all the time to try to get costs out of the device and be able to offer the device at a lower price. How long will the be able to offer the device at that price? Maybe just to get a foothold? Who know.

Not to take anything away from your crash but what angle side impact are we talking about. SFI specification goes up to 30-degrees. If more than 30-degrees, the HNR has very little to do with a side impact of more than that. Heck, your not even restrained by the shoulder straps for an impact greater than 30 degrees. Admittedly, I don't have much experience in formula cars but they are not that much difference than a sedan when it comes to restraint. I still consider the HANS Device to be the best device on the market (of course I do) but I will admit there are some good devices on the market now and their performance has really closed the gap on the HANS Device.

Since you are in an industry the is high on safety, then you know what I am talking about.

Howard Bennett
HANS Performance

Man... what a snotty attitude! Your high & mighty attitude alone would have me looking for a alternative product. How long have you been in the retail market?? Customer support? I do both... First lesson: Don't put down the competitors product - promote your good points, know just as much about the competitor as you do your own. You should of had a defNder right away so you could evaluate it...

Side impact - hit exactly 90 deg on my right side, just behind the drivers (me!) door. My right rear wheel went over the other cars hood as it went under my car. Did 180 deg in a horizontal plain while rotating 360 deg on the axis. Stopped from 45~55 mph in no more then two car lengths facing the opposite way then I started. Was a car with a roof, both sides and the top had impact along with hitting hard back on the tires... first two to get to me thought I was dead. Had a concussion, head did not impact anything... walked away in a daze before taking a ride to the hospital, not a mark on me.

Major soft tissue damage was due to the side to side movement of my head - not only from the impact but also the spinning at a high rate of speed while bouncing off the pavement. In looking at the defNder the second tethers appear to offer more support for the type of impact I had... Hans seems to offer none. I'll bet my well being on the one that does appear to offer more support - period.

Oh, and I have had my hands on both the Hans and the defNder, unlike you.

[hbennett]

Man... what a snotty attitude! Your high & mighty attitude alone would have me looking for a alternative product. How long have you been in the retail market?? Customer support? I do both... First lesson: Don't put down the competitors product - promote your good points, know just as much about the competitor as you do your own. You should of had a defNder right away so you could evaluate it...

Side impact - hit exactly 90 deg on my right side, just behind the drivers (me!) door. My right rear wheel went over the other cars hood as it went under my car. Did 180 deg in a horizontal plain while rotating 360 deg on the axis. Stopped from 45~55 mph in no more then two car lengths facing the opposite way then I started. Was a car with a roof, both sides and the top had impact along with hitting hard back on the tires... first two to get to me thought I was dead. Had a concussion, head did not impact anything... walked away in a daze before taking a ride to the hospital, not a mark on me.

Major soft tissue damage was due to the side to side movement of my head - not only from the impact but also the spinning at a high rate of speed while bouncing off the pavement. In looking at the defNder the second tethers appear to offer more support for the type of impact I had... Hans seems to offer none. I'll bet my well being on the one that does appear to offer more support - period.

Oh, and I have had my hands on both the Hans and the defNder, unlike you.

Whoa. Sorry. I reread my response. I'm not really sure what I said to offend but I apologize. It sounds like it was a horrific crash. I was just trying to state a fact that anything greater than a 30 degree side impact was more of a function of a proper racing seat, not the harness or HNR. I don't recall ever saying any of the other products weren't any good. I questioned their claims of side impact protection without independent, 3rd party verification.

BTW, Yes, I have had my hands on a DefNder and looked at it pretty close. No, I have not used one. I have used the other SFI certified devices on the market though.

Howard Bennett
HANS Performance

[Larry]

Many of us appreciate your frank comments! I have admired the HANS device, but like many, have balked at the price. Your company is the leader in the field, but there is now competition--which is a good thing, as it causes everyone to raise their game, either through more aggressive pricing, improved product, or hopefully, both.

Thanks for being first in the market, and making racing safer!

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products
...and no, I don't carry any of the devices, nor do I intend to.

[Steve Demeter]

Just think how much less these types of things would cost if every time someone got hurt, there were not 10 lawyers chomping at the bit to sue anybody remotely connected to the incident in question.

Liability insurance aint cheap and given the relatively small volume companies like Hubbard downing, Dfender, simpson, Impact, Bell and so on produce the cost per unit sold has to bo borderline obscene.

Just ask an OB/GYN or a general surgeon. My brother's malpractice rune well north of $100k a year and he has been in practice for 20 myears without even a hint of a claim of any sort.

That stuff is a BIG reason why things cost so much.

[azjc]

Whoa. Sorry. I reread my response. I'm not really sure what I said to offend but I apologize.

Howard Bennett
HANS Performance

No problem, thanks... Like Larry said - Thanks for being the first to see the need and acting.

[Robert Zecca]

Regarding liability insurance it usually is the victim/racer who starts the ligitation or their family against the manufacturer. My company has witnessed this first hand in the past. They sue the manufacturer then us and then anybody else they can. This is the raason why in this thread I have been saying that I as a company will not sell anything that is not proven on the market. I am not saying the defnedr is bad at all. How do I know?? I have never seen one. I am just saying with my experience I would never jump into something that is a unknown. I realize it passed SFI which is great but still I would wait a bit. I understand from the racer's point of view that money is tight and it is less money then the competition but at least the competition is proven. Either way I want to see all racers safe and happy and doing what we love which is being on the track. We are very lucky to have Hans, if it were not for them all these other companies would not be jumping on the band wagon. Hans spent the money or got the resources from others but either way they built a great product that has helped saved lives and now other companies hopefully will be able to bring other great products to the marketplace to make our arena safer. From what I am reading this new product is well made, fits comfortably and so far so good from the racers point of view regaridng value. Next year the will be in the VW TDI cup races and they will surely get tested.

[JimLill]

The users are always looking to compare data but it's not always there nor does it align. I might suggest that OEM publish, at a minimum, the data that Defnder did. From my invetigations, it's a pretty good way to compare things.

On their webpage they show Fz and Nij at 0 and 30 degree frontal

To compare, see: http://www.am-rennsport.com/HNR.html (I keep adding to that as new info becomes available)

[azjc]

Some pictures pretty much as the defNder will be used (a few final adjustments are needed for the belts & tethers) in my '87 Reynard FC. Yes... I just meet the SCCA 2" and Ft/R hoop clearance requirements (but it took a lot of work!):

[Robert Zecca]

Dear Jim,

I took a look at your chart that was updated on the 13th. Under Hans you have the sliding tether listed as $15 but as of Dec. it is no additional charge. The price is $695 regardless of fixed or sliding tether. Keep up the great work.

Sincerely,
Bob Zecca

[JimLill]

Updated.... thanks Bob...

To all: I am always looking for data or corrections to that sheet.

[harmug]

FYI, if you run vintage events. SCCA won't be far behind.

From the SVRA website
News - Head and Neck Restraint System Will Be Required In 2009

Starting August 1, 2009, all drivers participating in SVRA races will be required to use a Head and Neck Restraint System that meets the SFI 38.1 standards. All acceptable devices are listed on the SFI Web site at www.SFIFoundation.com
under "Manufacturers" / "38.1". Pre-War cars will be exempt.

mike

[Robert Zecca]

Jim

Regarding your data sheet on different devices: You state 934 for Neck Tension for Hans at 0 degrees and 1117 for Dfender. The Hans seems to be 20% better in a frontal impact. Am I understanding this correctly? If so why would this be since to be the devices are very similiar in construction.

Thanks
Bob Zecca

[cooleyjb]

Jim

Regarding your data sheet on different devices: You state 934 for Neck Tension for Hans at 0 degrees and 1117 for Dfender. The Hans seems to be 20% better in a frontal impact. Am I understanding this correctly? If so why would this be since to be the devices are very similiar in construction.

Thanks
Bob Zecca

This actually addresses a question that occasionally comes up. Are the reported numbers the best that a mfr. sees, are they an average, or are they what happened in the most recent test?

It would be nice to have more transparency in this part of safety devices.

And then to address your quesiton of similar constrcution.... Maybe they aren't as similar as some patent holders may think.

[Robert Zecca]

Joe,

I have never seen one except in photos. My concern is to learn about a product and offer the customer the best that is out there and by the comments of many people in different forums things look very favorable for drnder. They certainly seem to have the right price and offer greater side protection over Hans but the frontal impact is probably the most common in racing so we need to find who is best in this area. As per the chart from Jim Lill it seems Hans is better in frontal and dfender is much better in a side impact. My experience over the past few years is frontal impacts far exceed side impacts.

The one thing that is very important regardless of which device a customer uses is proper installation of the belts. I would venture to say that 10-15% of belt installations are incorrect especailly on older vehicles. The industry needs to do a better job of educating the customer. We had a driver die at LRP in 2005 using a Hans becuase the belts were mounted 8 INCHES APART!!!! Thie was a Radical sports racer. Who is to blame here? My point is to buy from a retailer either in person or over the phone. DO NOT BUY THESE ITEMS OVER THE INTERNET. You must speak to a knowledgable salesperson so they can point out everything to you. In this particular incident the sports racer hit a sedan that was parked in the middle of the track at about a 15 degree angle probably trying to avoid him.

Bottom line the consumer needs to learn everything about the product and which will perform best and also make sure the installation is correct as well.

Sincerely,
Bob Zecca

[cooleyjb]

Joe,

I have never seen one except in photos. My concern is to learn about a product and offer the customer the best that is out there and by the comments of many people in different forums things look very favorable for drnder. They certainly seem to have the right price and offer greater side protection over Hans but the frontal impact is probably the most common in racing so we need to find who is best in this area. As per the chart from Jim Lill it seems Hans is better in frontal and dfender is much better in a side impact. My experience over the past few years is frontal impacts far exceed side impacts.

The one thing that is very important regardless of which device a customer uses is proper installation of the belts. I would venture to say that 10-15% of belt installations are incorrect especailly on older vehicles. The industry needs to do a better job of educating the customer. We had a driver die at LRP in 2005 using a Hans becuase the belts were mounted 8 INCHES APART!!!! Thie was a Radical sports racer. Who is to blame here? My point is to buy from a retailer either in person or over the phone. DO NOT BUY THESE ITEMS OVER THE INTERNET. You must speak to a knowledgable salesperson so they can point out everything to you. In this particular incident the sports racer hit a sedan that was parked in the middle of the track at about a 15 degree angle probably trying to avoid him.

Bottom line the consumer needs to learn everything about the product and which will perform best and also make sure the installation is correct as well.

Sincerely,
Bob Zecca

In my experience that number is WAY higher. If we follow the quickfit guide that HANS has with their device as the 'standard' as to how to mount the shoulder belts that number is closer to 80% when I walk through the paddock. It's been one of my pet peeves about people with a HANS setup. They get the device and think that they are done with the installation after the posts are installed on the helmet.

While the vintage cars are the most obvious cars that have the mount issues, modern cars are not immune. The FSCCA cars need an update bar that One Formula produces, all the 98-01 VD cars that I have seen don't have the belts as close togheter as recommended without modifcation. Same with DB-1s, I think Fast Forward has an update that takes care of it though. The pictures of the new F60 Ferrari formula 1 car also appear to have the belts further apart than HANS recommends.

[Robert Zecca]

You are probably right on this number. I am on the board of NNJR SCCA and will work with the Tech people of all regions and stress to them to look at for this on cars. The problem is they may not know who races with or without a Hans but still SCCA must do a better job as well. I also hope to be at the convention and talk this up out there.

[Marshall Mauney]

The FSCCA cars need an update bar that One Formula produces,

That's just one of the reasons I'm working with One Formula for 2009 - those guys pay attention to the details, and they don't cut corners.

[cooleyjb]

Joe,

I have never seen one except in photos. My concern is to learn about a product and offer the customer the best that is out there and by the comments of many people in different forums things look very favorable for drnder. They certainly seem to have the right price and offer greater side protection over Hans but the frontal impact is probably the most common in racing so we need to find who is best in this area. As per the chart from Jim Lill it seems Hans is better in frontal and dfender is much better in a side impact. My experience over the past few years is frontal impacts far exceed side impacts.

This is also another interesting point.

I think we need to get some symantecs in order first.

Front impact = 0 degreees

Side impact = 90 degrees and I rely on the seat and cockpit surround a lot at this point for safety.

Offset impact = somewhere in the middle, lets call it 30 degrees since that is what SFI tests for.

One issue that exists in this thread is the use of side impact. I know I have interchanged it with the offset impact I've described. I know that many others also use side impact when describing the 30 degree tests run for SFI.

We do know from the HNR matrix of JimLill that at some point between 0 and 30 degrees the level of protection that some devices (like DefNder, Isaac, Safety Solutions) appears to exceed that of HANS. At which point that is would be an interesting study in itself. Is it 5 degrees, 10 degrees, 20 degrees? If it's 5 degrees that would be something I would like to know. While many impacts that I have seen have been 'frontal' I'd consdier very few of them to be straight into the wall 0 degree impacts. Most of them have had at least some angle and 30 degrees really isn't that much. This is where a lot of people have voiced concern over the safety of a HANS. Most people do seem to gloss over that HANS reduces the levels by roughly 60% although it is nearly double that of the 0- degree tests and that is probably the root cause of all the people complaining about the so called 'lack' of side impact protection of HANS.

[Robert Zecca]

Lastly I will speak to Philip Royale of SportsCar magazine and have him stress this in his upcoming article on H&N systems. He will interview us on this story and we will make it a point regarding belt installation because there will be more users now than ever.

[cooleyjb]

Lastly I will speak to Philip Royale of SportsCar magazine and have him stress this in his upcoming article on H&N systems. He will interview us on this story and we will make it a point regarding belt installation because there will be more users now than ever.

That would be great. I remember thinking about that when the last gear issue was out. I'll send a letter as well just for good measure.

[Robert Zecca]

What customers need to do is what Indy cars and F1 cars did years ago. Build a helmet side support so your head can only go so far and there will be no need to rely on a device. Even NASCAR finally does this. Window nets are useless!!! You can easily form this like a seat and mould it into your cockpit and make sure it is secured properly. THIS IS BY FAR THE WAY TO GO. in the case of sedans there are now plenty of FIA seats out there offering you side helmet protection. I have been to the SABELT factory in Italy many times. They had a test sled in house that now goes to 70G impacts with a 220 pound dummy. YOU NEED TO SEE THE IMPACT. A 50G impact is only 38.8 mph. This is to a dead stop. I have seen test with dummies and belts and seat and Hans. Take my advice make your own side support so there is no question and NOT A FLIMSY ALUMINIUM THING or get a proper seat.


Then go out a buy a product that give you the best frontal protection WHATEVER ONE THAT IS? And then you will be as safe as possible. It does not matter which device you buy, they were really designed for frontal and not side impact. This can be easily resolved. BE SAFE and do this yourself for less than $100 in most Formula car cases.

TAKE IT FROM SOMEBODY WHO SPENT HOURS AT A TEST SLED. THE IMPACT IS INCREDIBLY VIOLENT!! How many others on this forums seen this with their own eyes. I am not a rocket scientist, I can not design the stuff, I only saw what happens and I am sharing this with my fellow members. They tape up the dummies arms and legs so that they do not break off!!! When I witnessed this the sled was only 50 G and 38.8 mph. How fast are you going? i HOPE that you are never in an accident but please do all you can. This is common sense. You do not need a sanctioning body or some BS adverting from a company giving you pie in the sky figures. Belts are mandatory Right? 50 years ago not the case. Now you have proper and safe seats....... Now take care of your head... all this can be done for so little.

FIA did this years ago and look at how many deaths and injuries thay have had in the past 3 years and they are going way faster then us. Rember the F1 BMW driver Kubica at Montreal two years ago. He should of be dead but walked away! FIA knows how to do it. Take their lead.

[JimLill]

I took a look at your chart that was updated on the 13th. Under Hans you have the sliding tether listed as $15 but as of Dec. it is no additional charge. The price is $695 regardless of fixed or sliding tether. Keep up the great work.

Bob.........

The looks are similar but the HANS results for the $1000 CF model not the Sport. The Defnder results are for the $549 unit.

The Geometry is different, straps etc. The 0 to 30 degress variance for the HANS is 130% whereas the Defnder is 10%.

Like I said aboive, it is hard to align the data.

[JimLill]

Lastly I will speak to Philip Royale of SportsCar magazine and have him stress this in his upcoming article on H&N systems. He will interview us on this story and we will make it a point regarding belt installation because there will be more users now than ever.

Feel free to have him contact me if he wants to use my survey results and data matrix.

Note to all: watch http://www.am-rennsport.com/HNR.html for updates, I just added pix of a HANS model 1

[Robert Zecca]

Jim,

Can you call me at work at 1-800-275-4667

Thanks
Bob

[Daryl DeArman]

Robert,

You raise some good points about proper seat and side protection. However, to suggest that we should by the "best" device for a 0 degree impact and then build everything else around it, in my opinion is not optimizing our chances to reduce injury.

We are better off getting a device that offers great 0* numbers and great 30* numbers and then supplementing that with side protection device(s) LaJoie makes some pretty good stuff

The Defender produces 0* numbers 20% higher than the HANS.
The HANS produces 30* numbers 77% higher than the DefNder.


Jim, just another trivial update to your chart, the ISAAC includes a carrying/storage case. Not that you need it, since the device stays in the car.

[JimLill]

Jim, just another trivial update to your chart, the ISAAC includes a carrying/storage case. Not that you need it, since the device stays in the car.

All models or just the pricey ones?

[Daryl DeArman]

hmmmm....don't know. My case came with the ISAAC Intermediate ($895) and I've had it at least 4 years. The intermediate is the basic with the upgrade to aerospace grade quick release pins. Their website doesn't say anything about a case being another difference between the basic and the intermediate.

I think if you buy the Ti version it comes with someone to carry it around for you.

Guess it is best to not update the spread sheet based on my experience.

[JimLill]

more than just the Defnder, this continues to grows with links added to pcitures and reviews. Those 2 grow as my time permits too. Keep an eye on it.

http://www.am-rennsport.com/HNR.html

[flat tappet]

Any one know which HNR looks best for Formula VEE seating?Broad question but any thoughts?

Thanks,

Bruce

[Larry]

Since there is no standard FV seat, your answer is completely dependent upon your car and your seating position in the car. That's one of the problems with any of these; their numbers are for their test conditions, and may vary according to how you wear the device, what your seating is like and certainly what your chassis design is. Robert's point about side-load protection is good. The only real certainty of this whole thing is that you will be better protected by using a device than not using one!

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[azjc]

SNIP
The only real certainty of this whole thing is that you will be better protected by using a device than not using one!

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

That is it in a nut shell.... well put.

[flat tappet]

Since there is no standard FV seat, your answer is completely dependent upon your car and your seating position in the car. That's one of the problems with any of these; their numbers are for their test conditions, and may vary according to how you wear the device, what your seating is like and certainly what your chassis design is. Robert's point about side-load protection is good. The only real certainty of this whole thing is that you will be better protected by using a device than not using one!

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

I guess better to ask what are Formula Vee folks using for HNR's. I've got a 90 LYNX and a 90 Laser MKII if that narrows down the choices.

[JohnnyOTS]

I guess better to ask what are Formula Vee folks using for HNR's. I've got a 90 LYNX and a 90 Laser MKII if that narrows down the choices.

1990 Adams Aero FV, 30 degree HANS. I didn't necessarily need to go with the 30 degree model with the fairly upright seating in the Adams but my heart belongs to open wheel racing and 30 degrees is best for most formula cars. For what these things cost, I didn't want to have to buy a different one when I changed cars.

[flat tappet]

1990 Adams Aero FV, 30 degree HANS. I didn't necessarily need to go with the 30 degree model with the fairly upright seating in the Adams but my heart belongs to open wheel racing and 30 degrees is best for most formula cars. For what these things cost, I didn't want to have to buy a different one when I changed cars.

Thanks for the help, John!

[DanW]

Before you pull the trigger, make sure it fits YOU in YOUR car with Your belts, with YOUR helmet on.

Seating positions vary by both car and driver as said before. What might be perfect for someone with a HANS 30, might be a model 20 for someone else because of body shape and seating. Make sure your shoulder belts are spaced apart within the specified distance, and the adjusters are in the right place.

If your helmet has a deep chin spoiler, it may interfere with your ability to see your gauges, switches, or fire bottle pull.

I bought a HANS via the group buy several years ago. In my old Zink , the 30 was the right angle. As soon as I buckled in, put my Bieffe F1GP helmet on, I could not see the gauges or tach at all. So, off to the local "brick and mortar" helmet and H&N restraint vendor with my car on the trailer, and I tried a total of 5 hats (with the balaclava too) and found one that I could easily see gauges and fire bottle pull.

So now I have a very nice F1GP hat that is for karting or autocross.

YMMV.

[flat tappet]

Before you pull the trigger, make sure it fits YOU in YOUR car with Your belts, with YOUR helmet on.

Seating positions vary by both car and driver as said before. What might be perfect for someone with a HANS 30, might be a model 20 for someone else because of body shape and seating. Make sure your shoulder belts are spaced apart within the specified distance, and the adjusters are in the right place.

If your helmet has a deep chin spoiler, it may interfere with your ability to see your gauges, switches, or fire bottle pull.

I bought a HANS via the group buy several years ago. In my old Zink , the 30 was the right angle. As soon as I buckled in, put my Bieffe F1GP helmet on, I could not see the gauges or tach at all. So, off to the local "brick and mortar" helmet and H&N restraint vendor with my car on the trailer, and I tried a total of 5 hats (with the balaclava too) and found one that I could easily see gauges and fire bottle pull.

So now I have a very nice F1GP hat that is for karting or autocross.

YMMV.

Which begs the question....where can we try on the Hans in New England? I live in Southern VT and spend the most time at Lime Rock. The shop at the track? Where else in New england?

[Robert Zecca]

Just had a customer come in to purchase a Zamp RZ3 sport helmet in xlg. He also showed us his new defneder device. From what we can see the bottom of the helmet is literally on the device and rubs when head turns left to right and may get caught up. I do not think you will have this problem with a small or medium shell but be careful with the larger helmets and any helmet with a spoiler lip in the front. The one thing I was not crazy about is that the shoulder belts sit on two areas of impact and not completely on the device. If you go to tighten the belts you may feel resistance and not get the belts properly tightened. I understand what they are trying to achieve with the design but I have my questions in actual application. I have always stated that I will not offer something for sale until I see the device and now after seeing it I have made a firm decision not to sell it. I think as time goes on other users will share their information and we will all be able to make a proper and knowledgable buying decision. Either way if you do decide to purchase one please make sure you may return it especially if you wear a newer more aggressive helmet design that is a large or xlg in particular. A small shell should not experience these problems or older designs like a Simpson where they are cut up very high on the sides.

[Daryl DeArman]

I went with the ISAAC for several reasons, but more to your question. The ISAAC does not have a different model for different neck sizes or seating angles. The device pivots at each end of the damper. Since owning the ISAAC I've owned a Crossle 32, a Caldwell D13, and a MR2, I navigated in a Group 2 rally car (RX7) and raced a WRX and a RX7 that belonged to someone else. All with the same device and no problems with any of them.

I believe the ISAAC to be a great, if not the best device on the market. However, you must decide how important the SFI thing and current trends regarding SFi are to you and your buying decision.

Whatever you buy, make sure your belts are properly spaced!

[JimLill]

Be sure to strap into a seat and tension your belts before passing judgment on any HNR and its interplay with the belts and helmet. I am finding that makes a difference on every one of the 6 HNR I have tried so far.

[Daryl DeArman]

The one thing I was not crazy about is that the shoulder belts sit on two areas of impact and not completely on the device.

Thanks for the insight regarding different helmet shells and shapes. I know that many folks have similar problems with other devices. A test fit and/or a liberal return policy is a must.

Regarding belts not sitting completely on the device---I know that is a concern with the HANS as well, make certain your belts are properly spaced and go with the two inch HANS specific belts if you need to.