Pinto / Zetec Parity 09

[S Lathrop]

Frog;

I had graphs from earlier this year (the current situation before aluminum heads). I am extrapolating from those graphs and from the information that Rick posted.

My point is that with the run offs at Elkhart, any deficiency in top end power might render the Zetec uncompetitive.

It may be that other things will mitigate the power deficiencies and the two engine packages will perform dead even. This is why I would like to do a good simulation so I can look at the different variables. My experience with simulation is that this will give good answers. It is not proof positive but neither are track tests or just dyno runs.

We still are left with the fuel problem. I think that the fuel should be 100LL av. gas. should be the standard. And the fuel should be purchased at the track.

Now that the graphs are posted, I stand by my argument. But this is a massive improvement. If you look at the graphs you see why I did not have any Zetecs at the run offs. Also, I will bet Nicky's power is in the ball pak of the target power curve.

[Art Smith]

graph with legend added for convenience

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[Rick Silver]

Carnut and Rob, I appreciate your comments and made these points strongly. The problem is the aluminum head is out there and legal. Although I dont personally agree, several people including reputable engine builders said the aluminum head could not be restricted by 2 to 3 HP in a repeatable fashion. So, allowing the cam which will be I am guessing under 300.00 solves this problem in a controlled manner. The flywheel is specifically to make rotating masses closer which will reduce the corner exit differences. Again, this can be done for around 100.00. So while I agree with your points, in the long term interest of the class, this makes the performance curves much closer. My comment about being optional is that if one runs regionals on used tires, these items dont have to be installed. On the other hand, this gives iron head pinto competitors a fair shot to compete with the aluminum head at a fraction of the cost of installing the aluminum head.

As can be seen by the dyno curves, this makes things much closer than before. Especially from a RPM vs HP characteristics perspective. There are some issues with fuel, but one cant penalize all pintos because they could run fuel. First, my experience is that half the HP gains from fuel can be had just be running the fuel without rejetting. Second, the fuel injection continues to have the advantage of real time mixture and timing control relative to ambient conditions etc. So, I think this is a reasonable compromise although I personally favor making exotic fuels illegal and hope that rule change can be made some time in the near future.

One other comment on the iron head pinto curves. This is a middle of the road QSRE pinto on the QSRE dyno. A top notch pinto has about 2 1/2 to 3 HP more than the one shown which leaves a top 10% pinto right on the Aluminum head curve +/- 1/2 HP (all of this based on the QSRE dyno calibration). Steve, I will post a more detailed response to your comments later today, but I think this is a huge improvement over last year. Also, this is difficult as there is not funding for this, QSRE donated the dyno time and cams while various competitors ran the new Zetec map, restrictor and pinto flywheel.

[Jnovak]

How is it possible, with a map & restrictor change, to totally change the shape of the Zetec power curve? I know that the change shown on the HP curves indicates that the low end torque of the Zetec will be dramatically altered. How is this possible without changing something in the engine?

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[Stan Clayton]

Jay, the changes to a/f ratios and ignition timing possible with a fully programmable ECU can result in astonishingly different curves. Unsurprisingly, gross changes are easier to get than fine-scale ones. Stan

[Jnovak]

Thanks Stan.

Jay

[sarrcford]

I want to thank Rick and others involved in the quest for parity. I really, sincerely appreciate all your efforts in keeping a level playing field.

While the cost of the cam/flywheel machining may only be $400-$500, there is more to consider. At minimum, the bellhousing will need to be removed to get to the flywheel.
It is necessary to remove the engine just to freshen the head in 96 & 97 Van Diemens.
I think it might really require a full engine removal, rebuild and dyno for maximum hp returns. If you factor in the cost of a Quicksilver or Elite rebuild, well, it's probably at least a $3,000-$4,000 bill. That's somewhat easier to justify if it's time for a rebuild anyway. If not and you want to go do a National race against someone with the latest/greatest engine/map/head/flywheel combo, you are already at a substantial disadvantage.
What if the racer has a second engine as a spare? It should be changed as well.
What if you want to sell/buy an engine from a CFC or a S2000 guy? It's more expense for someone.

I do not object to these proposed changes for the cam and flywheel provided the Pinto weight remain the same for at least a year or until the Runoffs when the strongest politician/racer will lobby for their motor supremacy.

I simply don't want all the Pinto engines to be immediately rendered horsepower/weight deficient as of 01/01/09 without a single real race to support the Pinto change. This is all moot IF you let the Pintos weight remain at 1190 lbs. Pintos can remain competitive and the engine builders can profit from the guys who want to pony up, so to speak.

I have another idea for parity along these lines and will start a separate thread.

Again, thanks to all involved.

Rob Poma

[rickb99]

Question on the graph?

Was the purple (iron head Pinto with alternate cam) spinning a 14 pound flywheel or a 9.5 pound flywheel?

This certainly looks like a worthy effort.

The weight doesn't bother me (1190 versus 1200). On no day will we cross the scales at 1199 or lower.

[carnut169]

Why not say if the competitor runs the lighter flywheel/ alt cam they run at 1200, if not, they run at the 1190?

[KevinFirlein]

atleast its much closer then its been. Its never going to be perfect as the motors are simply too different. My only question is why 1200 was picked as the weight and not 1190 ? I guess it doesnt really matter as long as everyone weighs the same. It just seems that the class standard has been 1190 and those cars get a natural weight reduction with the flywheel change so why the increase ?

For the record, based on the graphs I would probably pick the aluminum head but it may well be close enough to not matter on the track with all the variables that exist between car / driver combo anyways.

Its natural that guys still running the standard combo arent going to be happy but this class has been jacked up for 4 years now and we need to get on with things so we can move forward.

[John Robinson II]

It was expained to me that the majority of the FC competitors at the runoffs were closer to 1200+ then 1190. Nicki was the only one close to the min.

Rob, I understand your weight concern, but you dont hardly weight 150# soaking wet, so 10# more lead wont be that much more. I feel your pain, I will need more then 75# for the citation, or just let Morgan Sr drive it!

John

[jim morgan]

john,

That's cold man. Enough with the fat jokes!Hey I'm a sensitive guy with feelings. I was hoping for 1250# to allow me to worry about minimum weight for once in my career.

[Steve Demeter]

If I read the dyno curves correctly, the proposed new Ztec map and restrictor is clearly the best overall. Most top end HP and really close up til that point (but my arms are getting too short to read the small stuff).

Do not forget that horsepower sells engines and torque wins motor races and the Ztec has always been ahead in that department.

Nikki is simply a tremendous marriage of a great driver, great chassis and great engine.

How many Runoffs wins and poles in the last 4 years. You can't truly gauge whatever combination of engines unitl you have that level of combination in all the possible engine combinations.

That all said, the individuals trying to make things equal are to be commended for their hard and often thankless work to try to make the class interesting for a number of combinations.

[Purple Frog]

Jim, Now you have to weld 2 pounds back on your flywheel.

Rick Silver, Thank you guys for the hard work. I think one measure of how good the effort has been was Kevin Firelin's post. I respect Kevin as a very knowledgable experienced scholar of this class. Kevin liked the motor changes and accepts them as a good compromise. But...Kevin is wondering why the need for a weight increase, as are many of the rest of us. We have been an 1190 class for years and years, why the need to change? The front runners (pinto or zetec) with the great cars needed ballast to make 1190, now you lighten the flywheel and jack up the weight minimum. No sense.

Rob Poma makes a point. He speaks from the view of a highly competitive driver in an older (97) chassis. And weighing in at maybe 135 pounds wet, Rob would have to add even more lead to make 1200. Rob is so serious, he's not going to change his engine without shipping it back to the engine builder. So, for him there is a real cost.

I on the other hand, I race in the "wanker FC" class where most of us tip the scales every weekend at 1235 if we guessed right on the fuel load. For me this change is a easy no brainer. I split the chassis, pull the flywheel off, take it to my machinist, add a new cluth disc, and bolt it all back together. While I wait a day or two for the flywheel, I pop off the head and install the new cam. Put the head back on and away we go. Less cost than two tires. Two evenings in the shop. No brainer. OBTW, If i make the changes, and Rob doesn't, I'll still have to drive like the heck to make sure Rob doesn't lap me in a race.

As I have written for over six years now, these rule changes are more important to the pointy end of the grid....the drivers that are competing for national points and are really going to attend the Runoffs. In my opinion their voices are the most important. Regional racers, and owners of garage queens should have less weight in the decision.

As i said before. Good work Rick.

[DaveW]

Rick Silver, Thank you guys for the hard work. I think one measure of how good the effort has been was Kevin Firelin's post. I respect Kevin as a very knowledgable experienced scholar of this class. Kevin liked the motor changes and accepts them as a good compromise. But...Kevin is wondering why the need for a weight increase, as are many of the rest of us. We have been an 1190 class for years and years, why the need to change? The front runners (pinto or zetec) with the great cars needed ballast to make 1190, now you lighten the flywheel and jack up the weight minimum. No sense.
..................
As i said before. Good work Rick.

Ditto the thanks, Rick and everyone. I could never have enough patience to do what you guys did.

On the minimum weight issue - with the iron Pinto at 1190, I was running ~20 lb of ballast. Now, with the Zetec and the 1200-lb limit, I will be running ~65 lb of ballast. Heck, I could have made the old 1175-lb limit with the iron Pinto, and would have had to still run ~5 lb of ballast. BTW, I weigh ~170 with suit, helmet, and HANS. I think us old guys over 65 should be allowed to run without ballast - with the Zetec, that would put me at ~1135 w/o fuel.

Kidding aside, I'm glad we are finally going to have a reasonable (I think) equivalency.

Thanks, again, to everyone involved. I'm starting to get enthusiastic about next year!

[DaveW]

I am showing the proposed power curves with labels.

[rickjohnson356]

I, too, applaud the efforts to have parity at the National level, but would also like to consider containing the Regional drivers' costs as well.

I know or a fact that Rob weighs 145# with gear. I had to add 53 lbs to my car to get him up to min weight at impound.

With a lighter fw and an additional 10 lbs weight, i will probably have to try to find a place for another 15 or so pounds of lead. I do have one spot left, but I hope all the extra weight doesn't rip the floorpan off the bottom of the car! At least I get to put it low on the chassis...

Don't know if I am a candidate for the new cam and FW, though. I might be able to do the cam (if I can afford it) but taking the trans off to get to the fw, wiould be a major job for me. I just got the darn thing back together, and would not be enthused about having to take it all apart. Would also require re-setup when put back together too.

If I keep my current cam/fw, why not allow us regional guys to stay at 1190? Like someone said, it probably only matters at the pointy end of the group. If the 1190/1200 were allowed, it would be a mess to police at impound (said as I am wearing my Regional Tech hat). We would have to remove the valve cover on every car (finish position 1-3)to confirm which cam was in it.

So would 1200 for National events and 1190 at Regionals work? If any Nat drivers show up to run a local regional (for testing or whatever), they would be at the front anyway, so the extra 10lbs wouldn't hurt them.

This would hurt people like Rob, though, since he when he runs SARRC series as regional he usually wins handily and also enter Nationals competitively (he is that good!). So having to have him run at 1200 for the SARRC would not be fair either.

My position/opinion may be hypotetical, since I haven't driven for a long, long time, but it would be pertinent as an entrant for any potential drivers in my car.

[BrianT1]

The wieght being 1200 lbs is not an issue. Most drivers are a bit heavier than 135 through 170 lbs. If you wieght that little you are the lucky ones. I have always found it cheaper to add weight than to take it off. I was a big proponent of moving the class from 1175 to 1190 a few years ago. It was just getting to expensive to find ways to lighten up.

I think this is a pretty good compromise all around. All we can do is just try it and see what happens.

Brian T.

[Rick Silver]

I appreciate the kind remarks. There have been several people that have contributed to come up with this formula. One of the challenges in doing an equilibration formula is that there are 200 or 300 active racers each with their own perspective, size, weight, budget, goals etc. It is impossible to make everyone happy. But I believe this is a reasonable compromise that gives the class long term direction and stability while maintaining cost without being particularly unfair to any single group of competitors.



As far as the 1200 lbs minimum weight, several competitors have requested this. It is my understanding that the majority of competitors are not able to make minimum weight. I personally can make weight in my 98 VD but had to take steps to make weight. With an extra 15 pounds the obvious thing for those who can make weight is to use a stainless floor pan, they last three times longer than aluminum, add stiffness and puts all that weight very low. 1200 pounds seems like a reasonable compromise in the long term interest of cost and participation numbers. Those that can make weight have options on how to best accomplish this over time.

[John LaRue]

In working towards this the weight of 1200# was indeed thrown out because it was asserted most could not make the 1190#. Obviously this is skewed because the weights were supposed to be pulled from Runoffs and/or other major events where people would already have ballast in the cars. I don't believe a survey was ever made of what the cars weighed empty. Most everyone I speak with claims they are running ballast.

The powers that be wanted to see the class at the same weight; that was made very clear.

If you feel strongly about leaving the weight at 1190# speak up.

John

[Stan Clayton]

The data John alludes to were collected at the 2006 Runoffs, where only 3 of the 25 cars weighed in under 1200 lbs, post-qualifying or post-race (2 of those by only 1 lb). The average weight was 1217 (1214 lbs after deleting those weighed after shortened qualifying sessions), but I have no information about who might have been carrying ballast. Stan

[DaveW]

The data John alludes to were collected at the 2006 Runoffs, where only 3 of the 25 cars weighed in under 1200 lbs, post-qualifying or post-race (2 of those by only 1 lb). The average weight was 1217 (1214 lbs after deleting those weighed after shortened qualifying sessions), but I have no information about who might have been carrying ballast. Stan

At the 2006 (and 2007) Runoffs, there were a lot of yellow-flag laps. I am guessing that cars were close to 10 lb heavier compared to what they would have been if the race ran under green all the way. In addition, most people leave AT LEAST 5 lb extra, so that they will not be illegal on weight after the race. So, take off 15 lb (10 lb for yellow laps, and 5 lb for legality cushion) from your numbers, and you arrive at 1189-1192 lb. So it seems to me that the weight should stay at 1190.

[problemchild]

IMO, basing minimum weights (in any class) solely on Runoff competitors who make it to impound is a flawed evaluation. These are the guys who will spend the extra money to have the fancy light parts. Checking the weights of mid-pack National guys and front-running Regional guys will probably give the most accurate evaluation.

[John LaRue]

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the weight in FC 1175# for years only to be increased to 1190# after new cars were intorduced and were significantly heavier? I do not recall any changes to the formula which would have increased the weight otherwise.

[Stan Clayton]

My GCR collection shows the weight of F-2000 cars in FC at 1175 lbs through the y2k season. For 2001 the weight was raised to 1190 lbs. That was before my time on the CRB, though, so I can't state with certainty what the rationale was.

As John LaRue notes above, if the competitors want to retain the 1190, write the CRB. I don't think we feel strongly one way or the other so long as all configurations end up at the same weight, and folks can get there.

Speaking of which, we've heard from a few folks. How about others with late model VDs and iron heads. That configuration is the overwhelming majority of cars in the class...how much to you guys and gals weigh "as raced"?

Stan

[DaveW]

My GCR collection shows the weight of F-2000 cars in FC at 1175 lbs through the y2k season. For 2001 the weight was raised to 1190 lbs. That was before my time on the CRB, though, so I can't state with certainty what the rationale was.
Stan

IIRC, as John LaRue said, the reasoning was that the newer VD's (1998 and later) were heavier than the earlier cars, and so to make those cars (the majority of new cars at that time, and those in the Pro F2000 series) closer to the limit, the rules were changed.

[Westroc]

Honestly I think I would prefer 1190 but having said that if I judge our cars by the scales @ M/O I'm always +10 over what it weighs on our set up pad. We are usually over anyway no matter whether there are yellows or 22 laps. When it's all said it REALLY doesn't matter that much. I'm much more concerned with parity than the weight.

[EYERACE]

i've been legal (1190) by 1 pound in the past more than once (getting it down to a science) and have no objection to 1200.

[Greg Mercurio]

RF-94 iron head, typically at 1210# post race.

[Stan Clayton]

Any ballast, Greg? How much residual fuel? Thanks! Stan

[Bob Wright]

So if its 1200 or 1190, or 1220 whats the difference? All the cars have to be the same. Give the bigger drivers a bit of a break. Someone on this thread, I think Rick, mentioned its much easier and way cheaper to add weight than remove it. In the Series we have noticed that there is a wide variation in the weight of the same make of cars, even with what appears to be the same equipment on them. Go figure.

I got my '03 VD (Zetec w/12lb [?] heavier Hoosier radials) to about 1225 on an empty fuel tank by using a small battery, removing the jabrock, swiss cheese brake rotors, pennon wings/diffuser and careful attention to bodywork (no repairs). To get another 10 or 15lbs off would have to be more radical (alu belly pan, ICP calipers, etc). I weigh around 220 with gear.

[Rick Kirchner]

Just as a data point, my 94 VD is exactly 1005 lbs no fuel. That's with a 1/8" aluminum pan, AP LD-20's all around, Avon tires, no fancy rotors, no fancy driveshafts or CVs, small battery.

I'm 215, and I guess another 15 for gear, which puts min weight possible at 1235, race weight around 1285. I figure I can get 20 lbs off the car for about 2000 bucks with ICPs and other doo-dads, including the lighter flywheel.

Beyond that it's either taking weight off my a$$ or big $ for the aluminum head or thinner bodywork.

[BrianT1]

It is my understanding that this is not a done deal as far as the rule changes go.

Can someone post a link or e-mail of who we should be sending our letters of approval for the rule changes to.

It would be much appreciated.

Brian T.

[Brad Smith]

RF-93, iron head, aluminum belly pan, about 1210 lbs last race. No ballast. I am 185 lbs on a bad day (too many fig Newmans).

[Jeff Owens]

crb@scca.org, bod@scca.org. Wil we reach 16 pages of posts with this thread?

[Greg Mercurio]

Stan: Residual fule is around 1.5 gallons and the ballast is organic.

[Thomas Copeland]

Want to make the weight really fair? Raise the min. to 1400 lbs. I've never competed in FC at any weight lower than 1340 lbs. Never complained either...(well, hardly ever....)

[Art Smith]

what is the exhaust timing with respect to TDC/BDC for the proposed alternate camshaft? will the exhaust's primary length have to be adjusted ??

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[John LaRue]

That is a reasonable question Art and we have to understand that there is likely more to be had out of the revised cam, flywheel and aluminum head than what we have seen to date. Given that the development is locked down on the Zetec in every conceivable way including exhaust and the Pinto has no such restrictions (even to an extent on the aluminum head) this is a continuing endeavour. I do not favor being locked down on exhaust when the Pinto is open.

John

[Mark H]

So up the power on the Pinto and then add weight!! Hmmm why not keep the weight and not add the power? Same out come. Is this another engine builder driven rule change?
My Rf-95 has 35#s of lead and must go out on a full tank to make weight. No where else to add lead, Im 165#.

If you want a totaly even class go FM or FE.