Immediate input needed - FC

[Zebra]

So, as per Dan, Sandy is not gouging us on intakes and is NOT getting rich with the Intakes. Therefore we are dealing with a pissing match between Elan and Sandy to be kind. I think it has something more to do with "Unfair Agvantage" which is not in the spirit of F2000. I think SCCA is stuck in the middle. Between a race team that wants to win by taking advantage of others. Hmm. Maybe we should vote to dis-invite the team that arrives with the manifold. The rules allow US the DRIVERS to vote someone off for unsportsmanlike like conduct.

Charles Finelli

[jonbaytos]

Finelli you are far to serious for this group.I wish Steve L would come back. Remember when he was going to sit in the bushes outside Sandy's house and clock him with a brick! The good old day's.

[Zebra]

I haven't had this much fun.

Racing 'fun before during and after' where are my umbrella girls!!!!! Thom found a portable Tiki bar that we are going to set up next to Andersen's trailer, also massage tables and before and after race session robes.

Charles amusing himself Finelli

[Ron B.]

Finelli you are far to serious for this group.I wish Steve L would come back. Remember when he was going to sit in the bushes outside Sandy's house and clock him with a brick! The good old day's.

Dammit - the first thing I thought when I saw Indyman's post was "the return of Steve L..."

I've never seen buudrow1, Steve L. and Indyman in th same place at the same time....

[Zebra]

And we thought it was Manifolds, its all in the manifold, we will be faster because of the manifold, shiny new manifold.
I am willing to wager Dan a Scotch and a massage and another Scotch that I out qualify at least one of his drivers at VIR.
With my Gelles/Maisey/Finelli 6 season motor and weighing in at 240 LBS.

Charles lets make a deal Finelli

[Zebra]

It's Clark Kent

[rickb99]

An ex-Gelles engine? Hmm, wonder if that's the one that was delivered to my front porch a few years back when Bob was on his "western tour" ? Sorta miss Bob on the Forum. He's certainly one of the good guys.

[Zebra]

Reading Dan Andersen and therefore Elans post, they are the factory works team, it appears that Dan was sending Mike Rand a cryptic message wherein he used Mike Rands letter as a sword challenging Mike to keep his word as written. Mike Rand does have a trump card in tossing Elans Manifold out of F2000, PARITY, it is impossible to have a significantly different shaped manifold (help me out you engineer types) and parity. Therefore all the mapping in the world will never get absolute parity. I am sure what Mike Rand was refering to is an exact duplicate of the QSR manifold NOT what Dan Andersen/Elan, Andersen is the factory works team, presented. Nice try guys no Cigar.

Charles Finelli

[Art Smith]

as careful as Richard is and as good as his sources are I'm uncomfortable with the word "guilty" and would much rather see "apparantly responsible" used; we'll all feel better about ourselves a month from now when emotions are hopefully back to pre-spring equinox levels. with the amount of bad information, misinformation, and half-truths contained in the ten pages of posts here at ApexSpeed and in parallel off-line communications I'm pretty sure we're not collectively to the bottom of this sorted mess yet !!! it is extremely hard for me to imagine anyone having a conversation with a major supplier (for Enterprises) without filing a trip report or contact report. trip reports and contact reports in the organizations I'm familiar with were required to get reimbursed for travel expenses AND were reviewed by at least two levels of supervision and/or management........ so does the National office in Topeka not have processes and procedures in place for dealing with suppliers or did one or more others know and do nothing?? whatever the case, it's been my expereince that employees that do not know what they know, do not know what they don't know, or do not know when to ask questions represent an extreme risk to the organization that employs them (particularly in these litigation happy times we live in). the Club/membership can't afford extreme risk employee(s).......

like Richard, I continue to be concerned with a CRB that is apparantly more interested in expediency in the direction of the moment than GCR process compliance, independent objective data in the evaluation of proposed sole source hardware, and objectively verifiable rules. in the absense of an objectively verifiable specification for each piece of aftermarket hardware approved by part number how can there be any hope of compliance verification ???

if in fact the BOD prevented the 2nd manifold for the Zetec from going through as a "clarification" then we all owe them a hearty well done! those on the BOD voting with the majority should not be allowed empty glasses when next encountered.

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[stonebridge20]

Definition of spectrum

Finelli<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 0 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Smith

[DaveW]

Richard and Art,

Thank you both VERY MUCH for your input.

Whether or not Elan has plans to sue SCCA (that they would sue would not be a surprise, considering our litigious society) is, IMO, at this point, not particularly relevant to this discussion. What is relevant is making sure that this proposed rule change does NOT pass, and that SCCA has (hopefully) learned something from this.

It is my hope that the storm that this issue has raised has also raised the awareness of SCCA Club officers in this type of situation.

[Zebra]

Jim looking forward to that 1/2 bottle of scotch

Charles Finelli

Maybe Dan Andersen will join us

[GT1Vette]

Our Area 12 Director attended the Atlanta Region membership meeting last (Monday) night. He did not direct me to NOT post his comments on this and other matters, so here goes:

Although the final resolution to this will be "extremely messy", he was one of the (three?) Directors that threatened to resign if this was pushed through without due process. One of the tenants of his candidacy was that the BOD should step back from micro-managing the rules-making process, but this (and the C-6 Corvette bodywork fustercluck in GT-1) demonstrates that they (the BOD) cannot afford to do that just yet.

Although some of the "apparently responsible" parties tried to shove approval of the new intake through at Convention, rest assured this is NOT a done deal and your comments on the matter are important. i.e. - keep those calls, cards and letters coming in.

Completely off topic, but "8 or 9" tracks have expressed an interest in bidding for the 2009 Runoffs. He didn't have the entire list, but the ones I remember are Fontana, VIR, Mid-Ohio, Daytona, Sebring, ROAD ATLANTA (surprised me!), and of course HPT. IMS was not on the list due to activities they have planned for their 100th anniversary in 2009, but may be interested after that.

Although we as a club certainly face some "challenges" in the near future, I must admit I have a much better feeling about our leadership after last night's meeting.

Butch Kummer
Atlanta Region

[R. Pare]

Art:

The "guilty party" is indeed guilty - there ain't no ifs, ands, or buts about it. I've just left his name out as posting it serves no purpose in the overall arguement at this time.

Hazelnut:

Sounds like even our BoD isn't in agreement about the threat of a lawsuit!

But there isn't any question that there are many in the upper offices that are scared to death of the threat of a law suit, and as their response are willing to screw over the members of this class, who by the way, have what in effect is a contract between them and the Club with the Zetec rules.

The relevancy about the threat of a lawsuit in in the fact that that threat is steering the thought process of those in charge. It doesn't seem to matter to them that caving in to a possible threat will probably cause irreparable damage to the Club, nor that caving in to that threat will almost assuredly bring about another suit from the class members, or even a mass exodus.

Some I've talked with would like to find some sort of compromise, but the devil, as always, is in the details.

It may be possible to placate Elan if Sandy agrees to sell to them through a third party (Elan has already bought flywheels this way), with Elan in return providing to Sandy the name of the final purchasers and a guarantee that the manifold has not been modified in any way, shape, or form. With this sort of agreement, Sandy then can keep the records that he has been dilligent about in the past, and also not break the sort of agreement that he has worked under with other engine builders all along.

Personally, I think that this sort of compromise is the only valid way to get rid of this problem - anything else that allows the manufacturing and use of a second-source manifold system is not acceptable at all.

[Zebra]

Guys, there is no issue with Sandy. Dan Andersen post was clear on two points, 1: Sandy getting fair price, point 2: his open ended blatant challenge to Mike Rand that he adhere to the letter that was sent to Elan regarding approval by SCCA and subsequent approval by F2000

Elan trying to get an unfair advantage for one team, its works team. (Do they have 100 manifolds ready to go? who gets the 1st one? is it the test team?) They approached an official and hood winked him approached Mike Rand and hood winked him. Everyone thought that they would come out with a duplicate, they did not.

Elan and the works team who ever they should be should be ashamed AND
Lets take a vote on whether we dis-invite anyone who shows up with the new Manifold.

Charles Finelli

Lets stick together to defeat Elan and the Works team

[Zebra]

As for the board being afraid of a lawsuit from Elan, not a chance. I heard quad hearsay that Elan asked the official about a duplicate with parity NOT what they came up with. Very sneaky what they came up with.
Elan should expect that the shareholders of SCCA, the members, could bankrupt them in a lawsuit.

Charles Finelli

[Art Smith]

Richard-

my concern is not if at least one of the "apparantly responsible" people have been identified to some very high level of certainty, it's with the lack of process involving jury of your peers normally associated with the word "guilty" that concerns me. in addition to this group's well founded sense of fairness, I'm also concerned about both the practical and legal implications that might arise from a perception by some that the individual(s) were "lynched" on the internet by an angry mob without all the facts wild west style.

one of the very few potential good things that can come from this sorted and very amateur mess is the person or persons responsible for it are held accountable and shown the door as consequence of the Club's existing administrative/personnel processes and procedures. the rejection of this proposed rule change AND the dismissal of the person or persons responsible are the only outcome in my mind that would demonstrate the membership's hired help in Topeka and elected representitives are onboard with serving the membership's interests. these sorts of things have gone on long enough and lets hope this situtation serves as a catalyst for moving the Club toward use of it's existing processes AND objectively verifiable specifications for everything it requires or approves for competition. after all, fair and open competition on a level track is what the Club is about, not sorted organizational politics and greed.

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[R. Pare]

Art:

That is the exact reason why I am not naming that person - he does not need to be "hung" on a public forum at this time. If and when the Club officially brings that name out to the open, he can be "hung" then.

As to Julows supposed threat to override the BoD if the BoD does not approve this manifold: Julow serves at the pleasure of the BoD, not the other way around, and is supposed to be subordinate to them in matters such as this (judicial as opposed to day-today administrative). As such, he has ZERO authority to override the BoD, and to attempt to do so I would believe could be juat cause for his dismissal.

[Zebra]

Who else makes parts for our cars?

I would like to start a boycott of Elan products.

Chas Finelli

[Phil Picard]

3 days left, keep those letters coming.

I am curious though , is there a way to accurately determine for ourselves how many letters were sent to the CRB, BoD and el Presidenta?

[Zebra]

Boycott

[mark defer]

it may be prudent for everyone to keep a record of the emails they have sent. if this thing goes south, we may want to print and collect them. just a thought.

mark d

[Jesse Yorio]

i sent mine today.

why not start a poll on the site to count how many have been submitted. anyway to limit everyone to one response?

[Matt M.]

Holy cr@p - 5 more pages since I was skiing! Albeit theres probably 4 of just Finelli since.... I think Charles needs his own forum on here.....Where profanity is allowed.... Like Sirius radio.....

And who the hell lumped me in with Engineers....... I'm too good looking for that.

=====OFF TOPIC=======

I'm up for the boycott..... I thought I was leading that charge since the end of last year.... . They don't understand the customer base and they want to muscle their way into what they see is a growing (=$$$$$) class. Its all they have left for a market.

I was told there was going to be a press release in the last couple of days..... But I don't see it yet. Anyway... GTP has bought a new transporter. The contracts are not all signed yet - but there will be some major players with space to support the series - as well as the usual parts supply...... I think the proper way to get it started is a discount on parts the first race weekend..... I'll make a call in the AM and see what I can get the godfather to loosen up for..... Of course, some have already made their bed - don't be surprised if you order a pushrod and a dead fish shows up instead.... You know who you are. We had to take his credit cards today after the wheel anouncement - He almost flew to Indy with Tiny the toe cutter......

====== On Topic ========

Lots of funny stuff in here besides the overley serious....... I'm sending my letter to everyone in the scca - again - this evening.

Thanks to the Carters for hosting all of this....

[zach craigo]

Ours has been sent. We were planning on running both SCCA and F2000 but not like this. It looks like only F2000 Champion Series since JD said no manifold changes there.

[cooleyjb]

Just a thought--

Another way to cut Elan off at the knees would be for the F2000 series and the Pacific F2000 series to issue a rule that the Elan manifold will not be legal for their series.

As Stan Clayton said in another thread, there are only a half dozen or so, Zetecs regularly campaigned in SCCA (while the actual number may be higher), the majority of the people who would get an intake from Elan are going to be running the F2000 series it would seem to me.

In the little world I've been in today it seemed like a decent idea. Who knows.

[Indyman]

OK I could not stay away.

If you think the manifold is a headache check out this head that Ford sells.

M-6049-ZX3P

A Ford motorsport counter guy said that 6 of these went out last week to a certain engine builder in the midwest.

There is no differance from the outside what so ever. Meaning undectectable without teardown.

Now waht???

BTW I sent 250 emails from known SCCA member #s wanting the manifold to be passed.

John

[Matt M.]

BTW I sent 250 emails from known SCCA member #s wanting the manifold to be passed.
John

Wow I thought of that one too.....
Theres a spammer in Punjabi that owes me a favor....

I'm going to skip the head and just put neon lights under the car....... Red, Like my sleds on fire...

[Ron B.]

OK I could not stay away.

If you think the manifold is a headache check out this head that Ford sells.

M-6049-ZX3P

A Ford motorsport counter guy said that 6 of these went out last week to a certain engine builder in the midwest.

There is no differance from the outside what so ever. Meaning undectectable without teardown.

Now waht???

BTW I sent 250 emails from known SCCA member #s wanting the manifold to be passed.

John

Is the part number cast into the head not visible? This part number would not be allowed per the 2008 GCR (at least as it is now....)

[Zebra]

Indyman are you saying that an engine builder is cheating and knows it, wow that engine builder just sealed his fate and can never be trusted. Reputation shot.
Did you hear about this Mike/Bob/Al/Purple Frog and SCCA can this be true? What are you guys going to do about it?

never going to trust anyone again, only in the court room where everyone tells the truth.

Charles the naive Finelli

[Chas Shaffer]

OK I could not stay away.

If you think the manifold is a headache check out this head that Ford sells.

M-6049-ZX3P

A Ford motorsport counter guy said that 6 of these went out last week to a certain engine builder in the midwest.

There is no differance from the outside what so ever. Meaning undectectable without teardown.

Now waht???

BTW I sent 250 emails from known SCCA member #s wanting the manifold to be passed.

John

Anyone with a Ford Performance catalog has seen all this stuff before. If somone wants to cheat they will always find a way. There are camshafts, high lift valve springs and even a supercharger available from Ford for the Zetec http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts...tKeyField=8902

A similar CNC head is available for the Duratec as well. I can't imagine it would be too hard to copy they seals.

I'm starting to think we should just adopt the midget zetec engine sealed from Ford. If their intake can stand up to a midget on dirt it should be ok on an FC. Just bolt our oil pan and flywheel on and have at it. http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts...tKeyField=8901

Unfortunately its going out of production from Ford Racing as a midget motor once their inventory is used up.

[Matt M.]

Word on the street is EPP is saying they have $250k invested in the development of this motor - to SCCA. If the motor comes out at 12.5K - Maybe $2k of that is profit......... And if I know Elan - the first few will be non-profit......Sandy sells what - maybe 5-6 motors a year in off season........ So say half those sales go to Sandy after this... EPP sells 3-4 motors a year......@ $2k profit each... Anybody get this math? 35 years later they might break even. No way SCCA should be afraid to say no to this... The guy who started it probably won't have a job in 8 months anyway.

[Art Smith]

Chas-

original, independent, objective, and rational thoughts; more of just what you'd expect from one of those guys on "the list".

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[DaveW]

Word on the street is EPP is saying they have $250k invested in the development of this motor - to SCCA. If the motor comes out at 12.5K - Maybe $2k of that is profit......... And if I know Elan - the first few will be non-profit......Sandy sells what - maybe 5-6 motors a year in off season........ So say half those sales go to Sandy after this... EPP sells 3-4 motors a year......@ $2k profit each... Anybody get this math? 35 years later they might break even. No way SCCA should be afraid to say no to this... The guy who started it probably won't have a job in 8 months anyway.

The only reason they would say someting like that is so that they would have a large $ figure to base a settlement or lawsuit on. Geez...

[Chas Shaffer]

Word on the street is EPP is saying they have $250k invested in the development of this motor - to SCCA. If the motor comes out at 12.5K - Maybe $2k of that is profit......... And if I know Elan - the first few will be non-profit......Sandy sells what - maybe 5-6 motors a year in off season........ So say half those sales go to Sandy after this... EPP sells 3-4 motors a year......@ $2k profit each... Anybody get this math? 35 years later they might break even. No way SCCA should be afraid to say no to this... The guy who started it probably won't have a job in 8 months anyway.

Not a very compelling business case is it? Invest $250k to make $10k/year.

Interestingly I understand Elan came up with a nice alternator that runs off the engine. Now that is something they could sell a lot of and don't need a rule passed to make it happen. I'd be very interested in one (assuming your's isn't available Matt).

[gcuddy]

And who the hell lumped me in with Engineers....... I'm too good looking for that.

Matt ,
I am sure you are lacking a functional mirror in your crib, you are far from too good looking to be lumped in with the engineers.If there's to be a poll let's take a vote on the validity of your statement.

[Steven McWilliams]

We should all just go back to Pinto's by 2009, and restart from there, and get QSRE, and Elite to build them.

[HazelNut]

FYI I and an, un-named as of yet, engineer have already taken steps to duplicate the QSRE intake manifold. An existing one has been digitized and a complete solid works model of the entire zetec intake system from gasket to air horns will be finished shortly all in all it took about 2 days engineering time.

It will be sent out to several casting facilities for quotes on production. Initial estimates are in the $10-20k range to have several of them produced. Elan is either totally full of it or just about the most retarded and inefficient business around if it took them $250k to make their version of one of these.

[Zebra]

if you want to boycott elan you can:
1) get your a-arms from Ray at Protec in arizona. they're better parts anyway.
2) get brake rotors from protec or two dogs
3) get all the hardware you need from protec
4) uprights are a hard find but i hear there are a few people that make them
5) all fiberglass and wings from pennon



Chas Finelli

[Don Jones]

Don't forget www.aerocraftfiberglass.com for VD raised nose and shock covers.
My Pinto powered Mygale is looking better every day!