FC 8x10 wheels..Why not?

[Bob Wright]

Call GTP, they should have both OZ and BBS available. For rains, The Kodiak (3 piece) is probably a great deal and much cheaper.

[Thomas Copeland]

Greggy, I faxed in my entry this morning. I'm borrowing 6x8 wheels from Brenner, I have the latest SCCA map and QS restrictor plate installed, so I'll be running as a FC entry. Our grudge match is ON! (although I will be, of course, at a disadvantage because of the weight penalty SCCA currently imposes on all Zetec in FC).

Look I'm not looking to cause big ripples in the FC class here. And honestly this thing really should be doing that either.

But the truth of the matter is that these 6x8 wheels are both expensive to buy and difficult to obtain. I've been trying buy some for more than 6 months. The wait has been very difficult because I've had to test on wheels that aren't FC legal. I plan on buying some through the wheel deal being presented by GTP. But raising the money ain't easy because it cuts into other parts of my racing budget. I had hope to be able to be at VIR for the East Coast F2000 opener. Probably now not going to have the budget for it. Why? Cause I gotta buy wheels.

And once GTP deplete their stock of 6x8 wheels will I or anybody else be able to get them and how long will it take before I can receive them? And how much more will they cost? It's all totally crazy considering I got perfectly good wheels (8x10) I could run on already.

I already heard from others that are EXACTLY in the same situation as I am. They're being excluded from participating in FC as well. We're always talking about what we can do to increase car counts in FC. Well, here's one solution. But instead of embracing the idea some of you act like you got some kind of painful hemorrhoid condition.

I really don't understand this philosophy some seem to embrace that wheels alone somehow make or break an entire formula. To me it's the sum total of eveything that determines what a class it and this is just one element of that sum total.

I'm not saying everybody in FC now has to buy 8x10 wheels anymore than the guys running Pennon wings are saying you all now have to buy Pennon wings, or the guys running expensive shocks are saying you all now have to buy expensive shocks.

All I'm saying is if there is no real PROVEN advantage to running 8x10 wheels over 6x8's then let us run in FC. I'm not trying to be exclusive as everybody in the class will benefit from this. Increased car counts, increased competition, etc..

And I'm not moviate by just my own desires here (partly though, no denial there, but not entirely). I also voted for allowing Zetec back when I had a Pinto in the back of my car. Wasn't aganist that because I realized then it could only help the class. Same thing here.

[racecr]

Gentlemen,
Gtp motorsports went above and beyond working with the owners of the F2000 series to make sure there was a easy transistion for the drivers and teams that needed to switch between wheel sizes.
We worked hard on a special deal with Van Diemen and Oz racing to make the rims were available before the season started . I placed a call to England today and were told they were right on schedule.
We are all working towards the same goal ..The goal is to have a safe enjoyable trouble free weekend. Nobody wants to see anybody spend more money than needed, Thats why the f2000 series and Gtp offered the rims below market value.

In a another note. Gtp has been working with BBS to supply another source of high quality rims. BBS stated today they are also right on schedule and should be ready to deliever in several weeks. SO WE CAN GET THAT CAR OFF BLOCKS !!
To answer one racers question. The rim supply is not going to dry up after this order.
Gtp and The f2000 series is invested in making sure F/c Zetec or whatever you run ,stays racing, for many many years to come.
So lots stop the complaing and go RACING

BILL STEPHENS

[Zebra]

Keegan that will be fun, looking forward to yanking the lead keel off my sail boat to fullfill the need. How was the winter going?? I bet you can not wait to get out there!!!!

[Zebra]

Thomas Cope, come down to VIR with big wheels I know of 11 others who will be there with big wheels. Throw some tire softener on the Hankook bricks and they will be sticky as glue and more than enough to equalize the compaound disadvantage.

Charles Finelli

[Zebra]

Keegan I have 2 sets of rims for you to borrow, they came with my Zetec

Charles Finelli

[Charles Warner]

But the truth of the matter is that these 6x8 wheels are both expensive to buy and difficult to obtain. I've been trying buy some for more than 6 months. The wait has been very difficult because I've had to test on wheels that aren't FC legal. I plan on buying some through the wheel deal being presented by GTP. But raising the money ain't easy because it cuts into other parts of my racing budget. I had hope to be able to be at VIR for the East Coast F2000 opener. Probably now not going to have the budget for it. Why? Cause I gotta buy wheels.

I already heard from others that are EXACTLY in the same situation as I am. They're being excluded from participating in FC as well. We're always talking about what we can do to increase car counts in FC. Well, here's one solution. But instead of embracing the idea some of you act like you got some kind of painful hemorrhoid condition.

I really don't understand this philosophy some seem to embrace that wheels alone somehow make or break an entire formula. To me it's the sum total of eveything that determines what a class it and this is just one element of that sum total.

I'm not saying everybody in FC now has to buy 8x10 wheels anymore than the guys running Pennon wings are saying you all now have to buy Pennon wings, or the guys running expensive shocks are saying you all now have to buy expensive shocks.

All I'm saying is if there is no real PROVEN advantage to running 8x10 wheels over 6x8's then let us run in FC. I'm not trying to be exclusive as everybody in the class will benefit from this. Increased car counts, increased competition, etc..

And I'm not moviate by just my own desires here (partly though, no denial there, but not entirely). I also voted for allowing Zetec back when I had a Pinto in the back of my car. Wasn't aganist that because I realized then it could only help the class. Same thing here.

Keith is absolutely correct. This is the same argunent that occurs every time a pro-spec car is allowed to run in the Club races with some changes. At first all the pro racers eagerly and willingly agree to the small modifications (wheel size and, I believe, front wings) just so they can run. They tout the plusses of "increased numbers" and "more entry fees" and "better for the class as a whole." That is just the tip. Then it becomes a campaign of insertion. Slow inroads, such as this one, to eventualy allow the pro-spec car to run in full pro-spec kit.

Thomas complains that their is no proven advantage by going to larger wheels. IMO this flies in the face of logic and approaches absurdity. Using the same logic he can not prove to me he would be any faster with $8000 shocks or a Pennon aero kit.

He says he can not find the smaller wheels on the open market. It has taken over 6 months and he has to borrow them? Bollocks. As we see they are available. He says this is a financial hardship on him and it affects his racing budget adversely? Welcome to the real world. Apparently its OK to force all the FC racers out there with the smaller wheels to buy the bigger ones and (again as Keith points out) change their suspensions instead of having to buy a couple of sets of smaller wheels.

This is a set formula, not a run-what-you-brung. We are developing into an anarchical system where everyone wants their own desires and preferences to be allowed without regard to the effects this may have on others. IMO just another example of the dirt road our overall society is going down.

BTW, Thomas, no racer is being excluded from competing in FC. Anyone in this situation is where he is because of a conscious decision he made, so, if anything, it is a self-imposed exclusion. Stop blaming the system for your decisions. You knew the rules of the sandbox when you jumped in.

[Zebra]

Thom and Keegan there will plenty of us with big tires at the race we will have fun with ourselves at the front of the pack since we will have the so called advantage, don't worry

[KVS84]

WOO HOO!!! Wheels on the way! Bill to the rescue! I'll be getting 1 hopefully 2 sets from you I was just shocked that they are impossible to find used. Only ones for older VD. Thanks for the offer Charles but I can't use big wheels anymore.... made a few mods to the car now it has to be on little wheels. This month can't go by soon enough, definately time to GO RACING!!!

-Keegan

[Shep]

FWIW, I have two sets of O.Z. 5 spoke FC wheels for sale off of Mike Rodney's Tatuus...
Van Diemen pattern.
Please contact me at erikshep<at>yahoo[dot]com.

[Thomas Copeland]

Charlie, as about how much advantage/disadvantage these wheels have I suggest you talk to some some of the tire suppliers. I did. I will be including that info in my proposal or request for rule change whatever it's called. And rules get changed in the SCCA all the time. Just read Fastrak.

Secondly, the GTP wheels are not available right now. They are on back order. There was a similar wheel deal I tried out for last year through Primus. But after waiting for 3 months I was told they decide not to go through with it. At first I was told the GTP wheel deal was only available for those competing in the East coast series, So I joined the series. Not sure if that's true anymore. But whatever it is I now I have to wait for the GTP wheels to arrive. Which means I have to borrow wheels for the upcoming race. It appears you have no idea what I have had to go through since last summer to try to get 6x8 wheels. All this B.S. I and others have had to endure when we all have perfectly good 8x10 wheels we can run on.

The GTP deal is a godsent. Thanks Bill Stephens. Imagine where we would be if we didn't have it. But the fact is I don't need the 6x8's to race in the East coast series. I can use my 8x10's. (hey wonder how they can run both types of wheels but the SCCA can't??????????? ...it must be some kind of MIRACLE!!!!!!! The Gods be praised!!!!!). If they can run two types of wheels and still qualify their cars under the same "formula" then why can't the SCCA? Riddle me that one (on the other hand don't, please, gotta enough to worry about all ready).

There must be something to all this because it looks like I have at least 20 letters of support already and I haven't even written the proposal yet. So it ain't just me guys. Here I am like others with 2 sets of perfectly good wheels and I can't race in FC because of some paranoid belief by some that I and others might have such an unfair advantage that we're going to cream the pants offa our FC competitors. It sounds so ubsurd. .

[carnut169]

I'd like to buy another set of 8 & 10's... anyone got a set they'd like to sell?

BTW- Jongbloed and Kodiac will make you a great set of wheels to your specs.

[Charles Warner]

Once again Charlie I'm glad you speak for the entire FC class especially since you are not even a member of it (we've been down this road before haven't we?). As about how much advantage/disadvantage these wheels have I suggest you talk to some some of the tire manufacturers. I did. I will be including that info in my proposal.

Once again, Thomas, I have to inform you that I am currently on the FSRAC and, as such, I feel I should have some sort of an opinion. Wheter I am a competitor in the class or not has no bearing on whether a BS flag should be raised.

Secondly, the GTP wheels are not available right now. They are on order. There was a wheel deal I signed on for last year through Primus. But after waiting for 3 months I was told they decide not to go through with it.

Sounds like you should be taking this up with Baytos instead of the Club.

At first I was told the GTP wheel deal was only available for those competing in the East coast series, So I join the series. Not sure if that's true anymore. But whatever it is I now I have to wait for the GTP wheels to arrive. Which means I have to borrow wheels for the upcoming race. Need me to spell it out for you in alphabet blocks.? Don't ever try to insinuate I lie. You don't have the first frigging clue as to what I have had to go through since last summer to try to get 6x8 wheels.

All I can say is that in the last 12 hours we have several sets that are currently available. Just how hard did you look, anyway?

All this B.S. I and others have had to endure when we all have perfectly good 8x10 wheels we can run on.

The GTP deal is a godsent. Thanks Bill Stephens. Imagine where we would be if we didn't have it. But the fact is I don't need the 6x8's to race in the East coast series. I can use my 8x10's. (hey wonder how they can run both types of wheels but the SCCA can't??????????? ...it must be some kind of MIRACLE!!!!!!! The Gods be praised!!!!!). If they can run two types of wheels and still qualify their cars under the same "formula" then why can't the SCCA? Riddle me that one (on the other hand don't, please, gotta enough to worry about all ready).

No riddle, Thomas. The rules don't allow it! Not hard to understand, laddie. There is a series where you can currently run the larger wheels and tires you were left holding when the Primus deal went south. Most people would consider themselves fortunate to be able to do this. You, OTOH, feel bitter. I guess it's matter of perspective.

There must be something to all this because it looks like I have at least 20 letters of support already and I haven't even written the proposal yet. So it ain't just me guys. Here I am with 2 sets of perfectly good wheels and I can't race because of some paranoid belief by some that I'm going to have such an unfair advantage that I'm going to cream the pants offa my FC competitors. Waaaaaa...

Make your proposal to the CRB.

[RussMcB]

Here is a picture of one of my narrow wheels. If anyone is interested in a swap I can pull them all out of storage and take a close look and pictures of them all.

Backspacing appears to be 3.5" front, 3.75" rear.

[Thomas Copeland]

Charlie, sorry you got my post before I edited it. My slow fingers replying to your hostile post.

But anyway I'm not getting into a pissing contest with you. I'm getting 6x8 wheels. But I still plan on writing a request for a rule change to allow 8x10 wheels in FC and that's it. End of story. I'll be submitting it with letters of support I've received. Let the SCCA decide. My agony of obtaining 6x8 wheels and whether I knew how to go about getting them has no bearing in this. It's only a backstory.

I started this thread to solicit ideas why the SCCA shouldn't allow 8x10 wheels in FC. I have heard no compelling reason as yet as to why they should not.

Keep those support letters coming.

[DaveW]

Another bit of perspective on this:

If the wider wheels are used, then the tire contact patch can be wider. If the contact patch is wider, then a softer compound will be a distinct advantage. The softer compound will give more grip and cornering speed, and may result in faster lap times, especially at shorter tracks like Lime Rock, Gingerman, HPT, etc.

This throws another huge variable into the mix, requiring serious competitors to test and evaluate the options.

I, for one, cannot afford large amounts of testing (money and vacation time), two different types (sizes) of wheels, multiple sets of tires from various manufacturers, etc., to sort this all out.

So, what is a nice idea for the few competitors that have the wider wheels already, is a distinct, costly, disadvantage to me (I only have my 10+ year old 6/8-in wheels), and certainly to others in similar situations.

[Dave Belz]

On page 161 of my GCR, it appears that a Zetech FF2000 is still eligible to run as FA. You are not being excluded from SCCA racing with 8" & 10" wheels, just FC. Why don't you submit a proposal to reduce the minimum weight of the Zetech FF2000 as a FA to make it more competitive instead of proposing that all current (older) FC owners spend $1600/set to upgrade wheels?

As for racing budgets and expenses, you're going to burn enough fuel towing to VIR to pay for a set of wheels. If you really want to race FC in Club Racing, the choice is yours to make, invest in new/different equipment for the race car or blow the money out the tail pipe of your tow vehicle.

Dave

[Greg Mercurio]

Oh Thomas, you crack me up.

You piss and moan about the Pinto engine and how expensive it is, so you get a Zetech so you don't have to piss and moan about how expensive it is, and now you piss and moan about how expensive wheels are.

Use all the money you saved on Pinto rebuilds and buy 10 sets of wheels. Some test days too.

So pissing and moaning are strengths, right?

Oh, and as for pissing and moaning about minimum weights, well, liposuction is almost as expensive as Pinto engines.

Thanks for entering the Double National. My car was sweet all weekend. Even cold and on GY250's. Looking forward to the competition. Winner buys the first round.

[Thomas Copeland]

Glad I can still keep ya in stitches Greg.

DaveW. You make a good point (but there is also additional weight and additional rolling mass that counters that increased contact area). Then again we allow un-spec'd wings and un-spec'd shocks, and un-spec'd brakes, etc... All those are variables. Each of those are known to give a performance advantage. Yet nobody in FC seems the least bit aggrieved about allowing those to exists.

$3000 for a Pennon front wing/diffuser, $4000 for exotic shocks, $2000 for special lighten brake calipers, etc. Dare say neither you or I got $$ to put those on our car let alone test them. Yet all perfectly legal to do.

If we allow those to be un-spec then why are we requiring that the wheels be spec?

This is not being done to require that everybody that has 6x8 wheels now be required to buy 8x10 wheels, anymore than those using the wings, shocks, and brakes are requiring everybody to run those.

It being done to allow those with perfect good 8x10 wheels to be able to compete in FC. Which is where the car belongs...and not in FA. (A VD Zetec competing against a Swift--a real FA car?...come on!..Who are you kidding?). They are being excluded for no other reason than some paranoid belief that the 8x10 wheel advantage will outweigh all those other variables (wings, shocks, brakes). Simply not true.

[DaveW]

Rhetorical questions:

1) if we have wheels spec'd, why not spec everything?

2) on the other hand, if some things are "free," why not allow everything to be "free?"

Answers:

1) Because there are lots of different cars out there where many spec'd things wouldn't fit, such as dampers, etc. No two cars have the same requirements, so, for instance, spring rates can't be spec'd. One of the class premises is that different makes can fit the rules.

2) We now have a pretty good compromise with spec dimensions, wheels, frame type, limited engines, etc. The more things are opened up, the more finding the right combination costs, and the less chance we have of achieving equal competition.

For those of us who are competitive, don't have huge budgets, but still aspire to win, having a reasonable level of restriction in the rules is the only way we can afford it.

[Greg Mercurio]

"...being excluded for no other reason than some paranoid belief that the 8x10 wheel advantage will outweigh all those other variables (wings, shocks, brakes). Simply not true."

Proof?

Some controlled environment testing done in secret somewhere? Data not previously presented?

[Charles Warner]

Then again we allow un-spec'd wings and un-spec'd shocks, and un-spec'd brakes, etc... All those are variables. Each of those are known to give a performance advantage. Yet nobody in FC seems the least bit aggrieved about allowing those to exists.

Thomas,

I disagree with your premise. Those items are not "un-spec'd." Each of these has specifications that limit them, either in materials or sizes or applications. I believe the pro-spec VD Zetec has/had a different configuration of front wing, no? One that is not allowed in Club racing? Same situation as for the wheels.

$3000 for a Pennon front wing/diffuser, $4000 for exotic shocks, $2000 for special lighten brake calipers, etc. Dare say neither you or I got $$ to put those on our car let alone test them. Yet all perfectly legal to do.

And Dave W. has certainly proven these fancy items are not required to be at the very pointy end of the grid.

It being done to allow those with perfect good 8x10 wheels to be able to compete in FC. Which is where the car belongs...

No, sir. The car with 8/10 inch wheels does not belong in FC. It does not meet the established criteria that define the class. It may compete in FA (and do quite well if the Roeblilng Road times are to be considered) by the rules. You may truly feel it is unfair that you have 8/10 inch wheels around and can not use them in FC. More's the pity. Instead of complaining, write up a cogent and clear letter to the CRB stating your desires and provide logical and clear reasons for your proposed rule change. Then allow them to follow the established rules changing procedures, if they deem your arguments valid.

IMO, just because you already have 8/10 inch wheels and want to run them so as to avoid the inherent cost of bringing your car in line with the existing rules is not a very valid reason, but they may see it differently. And, I still maintain your assertion that the wider wheels will not provide a distinct performance advantage is spurious. The bottom line is that you knew the rules when you chose this course of action. These requirements were not hidden or masked in any way. Everyone who made the committment to run a Zetec car was well aware they would not be allowed to run the cars in FC with the bigger wheels. Now you claim you are being targeted with exclusion founded on paranoia. I don't see it that way.

[carnut169]

I hope to do some real testing this year running both 6 & 8s and 8 & 10s. Not that my testing will translate to FC performance gains or losses, but it should be close.

Its my theory (as Dave suggested) that the wide wheels will be great for some tracks and not so much for others. I'll be willing to bet that the lap times at Road Atlanta are nearly the same, but at Barber the wider tires should do the trick.

If at the faster tracks the wide tires don't hurt too much I'll always go wide... they do look very cool. I just hope they don't always run that way.

[Stan Clayton]

I'll always go wide... they do look very cool. I just hope they don't always run that way.

This has been a "known" issue in Atlantics for years, and is why their tires have gone from 15" wide contact patch over the past 10 years down to just 11" now...the narrowest that will fit the minimum permitted 14" wide rear rim. In Atlantics (I know, not the same car as an FC...) the skinniest tires are the fastest. This is also the reason the old SuperVees are permitted the 6" and 8" wheels in Atlantics -- to help make up for their sucky engines...

Stan

[Thomas Copeland]

Sean, Stan...exactly my point. Bigger wheels = heavier wheels and more rolling mass = equal or even slower lap times. The wider wheels (tires) have no proven advantage at all.

Having run both the 6x8's and the 8x10's myself I'm pretty darn sure that the 8x10's have no real valued advantage over the 6x8's. They may even be slower than the 6x8's. They certainly appear to be that way at Sears Point (Infineon) which is hardly a fast speed track. Therefore it should favor the 8x10's. But seems to me that it doesn't. This is seems especially true when running the heavier 8x10 radials vs. the lighter 6x8 bias tires. I've run bias tires on 6x8's and radial tires on 8x10's with similar useage and I can't tell the difference.

Not only are the 8x10 wheels heavier the tires they use are heavier. Talk about stacking the deck in the other guys (smaller wheels) favor. Whew..and you guys are worried about an advantage? Talk about perception problems...

The Pennon wings, exotic shocks and lighten brakes have an known advantage and they provide an advantage at every track.. No dening that. Everybody knows it. Yet they allow those items to run in FC. So what's the big deal with the 8x10's?

There's no reason to exclude the 8x10 wheels other than just stubborn obstinance.

The wheels belong on the F2000 car and the F2000 car belongs in FC. Not FA.

[Daryl DeArman]

From the peanut gallery:

Am I the only one who is frustrated with "stubborn obstinance" of a few while at the same time finding it hard to be sympathetic to someone's desire to change a rule that was in place when they made their choice of classes and cars?

The "stubborn obstinance" is what will eventually lead to the demise of the FC and FF classes, while the "stubborn obstinance" has provided the rule stability over time that has lead to some other classes' success. Go figure

Call it lazy, but I'd rather not fight the system-take the easy way out and find another place to race. Let those refusing to change enjoy the stability and success of their class or be left scratching their heads in their empty sandbox wondering what happened. Meanwhile, I am going racing.

[RussMcB]

Generally, rules stability is a good thing. It protects people's investments and promotes closer racing.

If someone comes along with a good idea for a change, all they need to do is convince the rules makers and competitors that it is a good thing for the class.

If competitors do not seem receptive to the new proposal, find out why not, work with them and try to come up with a good compromise.

Sounds like a piece of cake. :-).

[KWilliams]

OK a compromise. You can run the larger wheels provided the contact patch of the tire is the same contact patch of the 6" and 8" tires currently available ..... Mulitple grooves not allowed. Now, please contact Goodyear, Hoosier, Avon and other to have your tires manufactured for a small fortune.

Truth be known and stated multiple times by many. It is a FORMULA CLASS. The formula is established. This is why no one is complaining about the Pennon Wings and the fancy shocks......... because they meet the rules. PERIOD

I am very sorry for those that bought a Zetec Pro Car and the series did not provide the playground you were looking for. Yes, we have a place in SCCA for you. It is a regional class called FS. Also, if you bite the bullet and buy $750 in used wheels, put in a restrictor and add some weight you can adapt your car to the FC national class. Seems pretty easy....yes!

Keith

[Steve Demeter]

Dave W said it best.

It is not up to the club to provide a place for anyone to run what they want to if it is decided to be detrimental to the people already vested in it. (cost of multiple sets of wheels, testing, revising geometry to optomize for them, etc etc)

Yes we have whizzy shocks and high dollar motors. But the insanity has to stop somewhere in a manner of speaking. We are CLUB racers and some level of effort to contain costs must be reasonably made. We are not here to accomodate everything that someone wants to bring in.

As Stan relates, there is a minimum wheel width for FA. The reason for this is about 1988 or 1989 someone showed up for the runoffa at Atlanta, before the chicane etc was added.

He had a Ralt RT-4, IIRC with Super vee wheels and was an absolute bullet in a straight line and handily won the race.

Well someone was smart and said, we need to stop the oinsanity now and thus, there are minimum rim widths in FA.

There are times and places that wider wheels will be ab advantage. But the cost would be ridiculous.

Another time when the rules were changed to accomodate a few and I wound up with a car that had finished a fighting third at the Runoffs and when I got it the next spring, it was a good Regional car at best. Because someone or group wanted their car allowed in and they were let in and a whole bunch of very competitive cars became obsolete overnight.

So if someone wants to run 8 and 10 wheels on a Ztec, run FS or FA.

[TimW]

Is F2000 an under powered or under tired class? Sorry, never driven one but know that FF is definitely an under powered or momentum class.

Every formula seems to fall on one side or the other. Utlimate performance is either limited by the amount of power avaialble or the amount of grip available in the formula, i.e. adding more power to an undertired class won't change its performance appreciatively, or adding more tires to an under powered class results in the same. Where does F2000 land? Nascar, CART and most other top series are under tired; obviulsy FV & FF are underpowered. Atlantic I had heard back in the day were about as balanced tire to hp than any formula i had heard of and it was said then that was key to its longevity at the level its at.

Note, I don't agree with the idea of yet another paramter to optimize around for amateur racing. A finite set is best, and since engine and tires are the two pirmary contributors to performance (the dampers & difusers are fine tuning in comparison) keeping those constant for me would seem to keep a healthier formula. Most every other form of major open wheel racing (& NASCAR) use a spec tire, so why would go even further away?

[Dennis McCarthy]

Steve sums it up pretty well "run FS or FA" if you feel the need to run different wheels, no-one is stopping you from racing.


PROBLEM SOLVED!

No one has to go to the added expense of buying new wheels which makes it all the more incluse for EVERYONE.

You will obviously be on the track with all of the other continentals anyway.

The $5 trophy can't mean that much......

[Thomas Copeland]

For crying out $#%^@*&^$# loud!!!!....I really do have to spell it out in alphabet blocks!!! $#@^%$%*#$%#@&%^&.....You guys just don't get it...

I'm not trying to increase car counts in FS and FA. I'm trying to increase car counts in FC!!

I saw something once at the zoo swinging from a tree that had more sense than some of you guys..

You are the ones always sobbing we're losing numbers. Now you turn your noses up at a perfectly good solution. There are at least 20 F2000 cars on the West coast alone with 8x10 wheels that are excluded from running in FC. Christ O'Mighty...you know...this class deserves to be taken over by the Spec Miata cancer. You don't even know how to save yourselfs when you are thrown a life preserver. Go ahead DROWN. I'll just sit here laughing watching you as you go under...It's hysterical!!

[DaveW]

For crying out $#%^@*&^$# loud!!!!....I really do have to spell it out in alphabet blocks!!! $#@^%$%*#$%#@&%^&.....You guys just don't get it...

I'm not trying to increase car counts in FS and FA. I'm trying to increase car counts in FC!!

I saw something once at the zoo swinging from a tree that had more sense than some of you guys..

You are the ones always sobbing we're losing numbers. Now you turn your noses up at a perfectly good solution. There are at least 20 F2000 cars on the West coast alone with 8x10 wheels that are excluded from running in FC. Christ O'Mighty...you know...this class deserves to be taken over by the Spec Miata cancer. You don't even know how to save yourselfs when you are thrown a life preserver. Go ahead DROWN. I'll just sit here laughing watching you as you go under...It's hysterical!!

UUUUhhhhhhhh

Thomas, maybe you ought to reflect a bit on these responses. Just because you think something is the best thing since sliced bread, doesn't mean that everyone will. Nor that it is what is best for the situation. Just because we don't ALL agree with you, doesn't mean we are all stupid. Think about it.

[JByers]

I just got back from Roebling Road with my unrestricted zetec in FA. Had 8&10 wheels with Hoosier 35 compound. Roebling is a high speed track where aero is set up for low drag. Grant it I had the Cooper 06 setup on the car (high downforce rear wing and stock diffuser) but without the extra HP Cole Morgan would of had the better car. With the rear wing trimmed out, he had about 1 mph higher top speed than me. The end result was the FA set up was only 1/2 of a second quicker per lap, take away the extra HP and loose about 1 second per lap or better.

[RussMcB]

Thomas, I think you'll have much better chance of success if you try and understand why there are many people that are not open to your idea. If you truly understand their reasons, you can work constructively towards your goal.

For crying out $#%^@*&^$# loud!!!!....I really do have to spell it out in alphabet blocks!!! $#@^%$%*#$%#@&%^&.....You guys just don't get it...

I'm not trying to increase car counts in FS and FA. I'm trying to increase car counts in FC!!

I saw something once at the zoo swinging from a tree that had more sense than some of you guys..

You are the ones always sobbing we're losing numbers. Now you turn your noses up at a perfectly good solution. There are at least 20 F2000 cars on the West coast alone with 8x10 wheels that are excluded from running in FC. Christ O'Mighty...you know...this class deserves to be taken over by the Spec Miata cancer. You don't even know how to save yourselfs when you are thrown a life preserver. Go ahead DROWN. I'll just sit here laughing watching you as you go under...It's hysterical!!

[Thomas Copeland]

UUUUhhhhhh Dave, I didn't say anybody was stupid....those aren't my words... and part of that last bit was a joke. Looks like you didn't quite get that part of it. (did ya at least laugh....just a little?) Anyway, this thing is looking pretty raw. Don't know if we can beat anymore daylight outta it. You guys are more than willing to try without me. It's been a real hoot. Ah, come on...you had SOME FUN didn't ya?

Now time to find a nice serene garden somewhere, a fortress of solitude, and reflect on all that has past posted.

[Rick Kirchner]

Two years ago I bought a set of used 6&8 for $550, Shep has his listed today for twice that, and ya think there's no supply problem? I suppose we'll have to see if he gets that much at sale.

Some rules stability is good. Too much is just as bad as not enough. Stagnation is just as deadly as needless escalation. This entire situation is a prime example of these forces colliding. Stagnation leads to new classes out of desparation (FSCCA, F1000, F600???).

USAC, in the days when Indy cars weren't spec - used to put the kabosh on needless escalation, thoroughly pissing off influential owners (Granitelli turbine, Penske pushrod-mercedes, etc) that had the deep pockets to find speed at any cost. Both of those were seen as a threat to car count because you either got one or went home. So, they were allowed to run for one year (ya got us there, we didn't think of that one) and then legislated away. I'm on the fence about ground effects - they may have seen them as making the cars safer and more predictable. Say what you will about their incompetence in other areas, but they had a decent handle on stuff like this.

The SCCA on the other hand rarely has the balls to say no. I can think of a couple of things: Diffusers and 5" clutches. Both are perfectly legal. Both make the car faster. Both are short-lived expensive items requireing frequent replacement, or at most are screw-up intolerant. They do nothing to improve the quality or competition of the racing. They only increase the cost of the cars and as much as some folks think not, I believe there's a direct relationship between the cost of the car and the number racing. I'm sure there are other examples, but the only thing I remember the SCCA saying no to was Corvettes with cut-down windshields (mid 1980's) and Fran-AM. Both good decisions (one can question how the whole Fran-am thing came about however).

Gradual change is good and necessary, but you need a long-term plan and target. How many of you want to work for a company that makes a widget and has not plans to ever make anything other than that widget? I refuse to believe that our small niche in this sport is any different. What we want to avoid are sudden technology injections that are costly, required to be competitive, and do little more than make the cars faster. On the other hand, stuff that increases longevity, reduces operating costs, and promotes closer competition are good things.

Stuff happens out of desparation because of lack of leadership. Sudden, well intentioned, but not necessarily well-thought out changes are often the result. Stan is trying to provide some leadership and long term thinking, but he's not revealed all his thinking yet. Charlie balances that out to some degree, as he's more a traditionalist. We would be better off debating the processes and long term direction than individual proposed changes, but at least there's a debate going on.

Inaction, is action, it just takes longer to see the results.

[Greg Mercurio]

Oh Thomas.

I just dropped down from the upper branches to say this:

YOU bought the Zetech.
YOU knew what the rules were when you bought the Zetech.
YOU are the one who is NOW unwilling to buy the wheels YOU knew were required.
YOU want to increase participation, but only on your terms.
YOU want us to support your piss-poor? decision?

YOU can prove that there is no competitive advantage by buying a set of wheels.
YOU can do the testing required to offer proof the the CRB.

(since this thread was really about you, I thought I'd throw in a few YOU'S)

See ya next week at the track. If you'd like, I'll waive your wheel requirement, and I'll lobby everyone else in the group to waive your wheel requirement, I'll get the Chief Steward to waive your wheel requirement and I'll issue you a Tech Sticker with 8 and 10" wheels. The we'll see if the proof is in the pudding. If YOU don't kick our asses, it will not be the tires right? And if you do, then it had to be the tires, right?

[DaveW]

UUUUhhhhhh Dave, I didn't say anybody was stupid....those aren't my words... and part of that last bit was a joke. Looks like you didn't quite get that part of it. (did ya at least laugh....just a little?) Anyway, this thing is looking pretty raw. Don't know if we can beat anymore daylight outta it. You guys are more than willing to try without me. It's been a real hoot. Ah, come on...you had SOME FUN didn't ya?

Now time to find a nice serene garden somewhere, a fortress of solitude, and reflect on all that has past posted.

Thomas,

Yeah, I did have a few laughs over this, but in the most part, unless you can see someone's face, or hear their inflection, you can't tell if they are joking. I had hoped it was at least partially a joke. You impress me as being pretty intelligent, but being apt to place your foot in your mouth on occasion. I hoped to provoke a response like this from you, because it (the post I commented on) really needed to be clarified.

Good luck this year.

[Steve Herrod]

"The SCCA on the other hand rarely has the balls to say no. I can think of a couple of things: Diffusers and 5" clutches. Both are perfectly legal. Both make the car faster. Both are short-lived expensive items requireing frequent replacement, or at most are screw-up intolerant. They do nothing to improve the quality or competition of the racing."

Just an interested observer in this discussion, but Rick's comment begs a question: What items or modifications would you consider to have improved the quality or competition of the racing? I have heard this statement thrown around in other discussions and I always wondered about these marvelous items. I'm just slightly being a smartass, but seriously, can you name a few items that improve the quality or competition of amateur racing?
A few examples may help me understand what is meant by this argument.

Thanks for helping my simple mind get a grasp on this idea.

Steve H