FC 8x10 wheels..Why not?

[Thomas Copeland]

Why can't we use 8 x 10 wheels in FC? Won't the additional weight of those wheels over the 6 x 8's counter any advantage by having more contact area?

What are the cons against using them? Cause I don't see any logical reason why we shouldn't be able to. We have unlimited shocks and such. That would seem to be a bigger performace issue than wheel size.

[Greg Mercurio]

'Cuz...

[Purple Frog]

Greg is correct.

Besides which, in 95% of the situations you would be slower.

Downside:
More rolling resistance.
Harder to get heat in them.
More aero drag.
More unsprung weight.

Upside:
Everybody is selling them, so they are cheap.
They sort of look cool.

[Dave Belz]

Upside:
Everybody is selling them, so they are cheap.
They sort of look cool.

Then after the wheel upgrade, if you could just stick that $3000 Zetech in there...

Dave

[Thomas Copeland]

Hey Mercurio, I always enjoy it when you give such a rational and in-depth argument. That's why you make such a great SCCA official. You're the perfect bureaucrat! But the fact that somebody else actually understood ya is givin' me a huge inferiority complex!

A tire guy last year told me the reason why the Goodyears were slower than the Avons were because the rear wheels were wider. Something about too much rolling mass/resistance (also they weight more). So the 8x10 have more contact area but have greater rolling mass. Wonder what the plus's vs. the minus's of increased contact area vs. more rolling mass/weight. Or does any of this make sense?

If they are really slower then what's the big deal? I don't mind running at a disadvantage. There are disadvantages galore in this class. Okay, I understand the engine parity issue...making sure everybody runs the with the same amount of horsepower.

But everything else from shocks to wings is wide open in this class so why not rims? You telling me that the guy running the $8,000 Olins doesn't have an advantage over someone running dynamic shocks? or even triple Penskes? Or the guy running the Pennon wing/diffuser isn't going to be quicker than the poor schmuck running stock?

Somebody explain why it can't be allowed in FC in simply terms. Guess I'm too dumb or too old to read between the lines...

And Hey, don't get me started on the 3K Zetec. I'm starting to think it could be done for 2.8K! (re-read the thread again if ya doubt me)...

[Bob Wright]

The short answer is that the FC spec is 6" and 8" just like FF is 5.5" and FV is something from the 1930's. Any of them could be changed, but that's changing the class spec.

I think a longer answer is that if allowed (and not spec'd), everybody would have to have sets of both wheels- the 20% additional tire patch is a advantage at a track like Lime Rock and probably a disadvantage at Road America, etc, etc.

[Thomas Copeland]

But aren't these advantages-disadvantages tradeoffs true of a lot of the extras that the class allows to be bolted on? Various wing packages, stocks, and such? Why doesn't the SCCA allow just the stock stuff on that?

[Douglas Kniffin]

Seems to me the class has changed major components like engines since the 60's why would wheel size be the one non-flexible rule?

[Rick Kirchner]

for the ultimate in stupidity see F1. 13" Rims, the rears are now wider than the diameter.

Now here's a question - if FF came up with cantelivered sidewalls to get past the 5.5" requirement, why wouldn't you do that on the rears of any car regardless of rim width?

Do fords get away with cantilevers because without signifficant downforce there's not too much loading (comparatively) on the rear sidewalls?

[Greg Mercurio]

Oh Thomas....I'm faster than you and I don't have any of those goodies. Well, maybe the triple Penskes. But I'm in the "inferior" RF94 to your new and improved Zetec with the cool aero package, and at my current weight almost at parity.

The wheel rule is just 'cuz.

Get over it.

I tried to get the FF community and the CRB to accept 6 and 8" wheels for the class, the tire contact patches and diameters are the same for both. No deal. Why?

'Cuz...

I expect to see you at Thunderhill for the Double National. And I resigned my commision as Chief Scrutineer 3 years ago. Gosh I miss it.

[Thomas Copeland]

Okay, Greggy, we'll duel it out at the big T. Loser has to accept that the other is correct on this wheel issue. That means YOU have to write a letter to the CRB supporting my request that they allow 8x10's in FC!!

This is your alterative--

[Bob Wright]

One must remember that FC is a formula, not a spec class. There are minimum and maximum measurments and specific components which must be used, but there's a whole lot of things that can be innovative. That's what makes the class interesting.

Since the class evolved to F2000 (introduced in England in the late '70's) around 1986, the Zetec is the only new engine introduced and look what it took to get that in. The wheels have always been 6/8" and the gear box has always been a 4 speed H pattern (but not always the same one- Mk9, Staffs, LD200). There has been a tremendous amount of innovation within the rules between 1986 and 2001 when everything froze (thats for another thread). The car and the class have produced dynamic drivers and champions all during that period- Paul Tracy, Jimmy Vasser, Patrick Carpentier, Wheldon, Rice, Hornish, etc, etc. which is a testament to how good the formula is at teaching racecraft and how durable it is.

So, ofcourse you can change the wheels, put a 2.3 ltr Duratec @190 hp in it, or open up the Zetec to 210 hp, a 6 speed sequential, limited slip, and so on.

It won't be the same car or formula anymore.

[RussMcB]

Thomas, I'd think it would boil down to simply convincing the CRB that the benefits outweigh the disadvantages.

If you really want the change to happen, maybe the question/proposal would be better posed as, "The reasons 8x10 wheels should be allowed are: ..." as opposed to "Why can't we use 8x10's?".

[Greg Mercurio]

OK Thomas: I'll be glad to. Publicly. When it happens.

See you Saturday on the Grid. I have to work on Friday so no practice.

[Purple Frog]

Bob hit the nail on the head. If 8/10s were allowed then every competitor would need sets of each because on a given day the 8/10 combination may be faster on a slow speed, hot, track. The CRB has determined that would be a monetary hardship to the exsisting base of car owners. The same rational used to not allow many available pinto engine updates. If allowed then in a de facto case it forces all competitors to have to spend to keep up, something they historically have frowned upon forcing on the competitors.

[Charles Warner]

Thomas, I'd think it would boil down to simply convincing the CRB that the benefits outweigh the disadvantages.

If you really want the change to happen, maybe the question/proposal would be better posed as, "The reasons 8x10 wheels should be allowed are: ..." as opposed to "Why can't we use 8x10's?".

Well put, Russ.

AND, one reason to make a change that doesn't hold water is that "it makes us faster." As a formula based class it's all about relative speed, not ultimate speed. 6"/8" tires might make the car faster but, as Froggie says, it's a de facto requirement that all competitors change. IMO the only basis for a requested change is economic, I.e. parts not available or a cheaper, better part is available with no competitive advantage on replacement.

And "it looks cool" isn't much of a reason either.

[Thomas Copeland]

But can't the same "monetary hardship" argument be made about those using exotic shocks and Pennon wing pacakages? Will we all now be forced to buy those just to keep up? As long as these things are allowed I don't buy the "monetary hardship" argument.

I plan on phrasing the proposal exactly along the lines you suggest Russ.

[Charles Warner]

But can't the same "monetary hardship" argument be made about those using exotic shocks and Pennon wing pacakages? Will we all now be forced to buy those just to keep up? As long as these things are allowed I don't buy the "monetary hardship" argument.

Thomas,

The class was created around a certain "formula" that included open items and specified items. When it was formulated the myriad of exotic shocks was not widely available or affordable. Same can be said regarding carbon wings, diffusers, and data systems. As they gradually became available and affordable the racers with deeper pockets bought them. C'est la vie. One of the specified items (and one factor around which the cars were designed) was the wheel sizes.

What reasoning can you give for needing this change? Yes, I mean "needing." Change for change's sake is a waste of energy and money. What you are asking for is something, unlike exotic shocks or Pennon carbon units, that will inherently change the concept of the car. Unless there is a prevailing need then why do it?

[Thomas Copeland]

I disagree that specialized shocks and wing packages do not change the concept of the car. At least not any less than wheels would. I see quite a few street cars like mine (BMW) on the street. Many of them have dfferent wheels. Some exotic. Some even with different size wheels. Doesn't change what the car is one bit. It's still a BMW.


Anyway, reasons? Just off the top of my head here are at least three, I haven't set down to write the proposal yet and I don't have time to write it all down this minute either, or spell check (Sorry):

-Increased car counts.

-Unnecessary exclusion.

-Monetary hardship (ok Frog, I'm using this one)

Basically we got a class that has seen over the years declining participation numbers. There are quite a few pro spec Zetec cars out there that would participate but are being unnecessarily excluded simply because they have 8x10 wheels (I count myself as one of these). Having to buy 6x8 wheels are not only too expensive but difficult too obtain for many of these owners. It puts an unnecessary financial burden on them.

Allowing 8x10 wheels opens up those pro spec car owners who currently only have 8x10's wheels. This increases car counts and participation numbers, competition, and fees to the club from entries. Everybody wins on this.

The only concern is do these wheels provide any huge advantage to the users. The universally accepted belief is that they don't. They might provide some increased performance at certain tracks but at others they would be operating at a distinct disadvantage. They are also heavier than the current 6x10's so there will be a weight penalty for using them. Because these wheels don't provide a performance advantage at every track (or for that matter maybe at any track), there should be no reason for the exclusion of these wheels to exist. Especially in light of all the other exotic elements that are allowed that are known to provide a performance advantage (i.e., special shocks and wings).

[Douglas Brenner]

Believe me, the monetary consiquences of buying some new wheels is nothing compered to the monetary consiquences of getting tangled up with all the badly driven cars with horse power in the group we are unlucky enough to run with. I have purchased many wheels in the last few years from getting them bent by other cars trying to run me over. Anything that can be done to get more speed for FC I am not against.

[Thomas Copeland]

Doug, you crack me up!! This isn't exactly what I meant when I talked to ya on the phone!

Ok (Mister 50 Grand$$$ Ohlins), I'll chalk you up as a supporter. Send me an email so I can enclose it with the proposal.

[Dave Belz]

Because I doubt that it would fit in my trailer.

Then I'd have to by transport wheels.

And who am I going to be able to sell the 6 & 8s to?

Dave

[Zebra]

The 8' & 10' do look cool unlike the karting tires that FC uses now. Finally, an engine you are proud to show and big tires what a package now we look like a race car, which matters to us fat mid packers, which brings me to my next point, weight!!!!!! Why is the minimum so low!!!!!! If you weigh over 185 you can NOT win no way no how against an equal talent that weighs 135lbs.

Charles Finelli

[Zebra]

I want the Min weight bumped up so people who weigh 215 can have a shot

Charles Finelli

[Zebra]

By the way looking cool is the only thing that matters when you weigh 240lbs like me, and will still be kicking a.. in my second year of racing against all of you light weights, imagine where I would finish if all of you had to add 50lbs to your cars. Stop with all the nonsense the formula is skewed to all those mentioned by Bob Wright in his statement above, little tiny men/boys who you would never wanting backing you up in the pits after cutting me off. Auto racing has become a Jockey Sport

NO ONE HAS EVER SHOWN THAT THE BIGGER TIRES ARE FASTER IT IS AN ILLUSION AND ONE I CAN LIVE WITH. NOT ONLY WILL I DO WELL WITH 50LBS MORE WEIGHT I WILL BE DOING IT WITH FAT COOL TIRES THAT MY SPONSORS LIKE.

Charles Finelli

[Zebra]

I do weigh 240 but I can lose a good 20lbs but not much less

Charles Finelli

BUMP the WEIGHT

[Dennis McCarthy]

Thomas ,

You have a Zetec with 8 & 10's and we should all buy new wheels so you don't have to buy 6 & 8's??

[fredvs]

Geez I sure wish I could buy new 6 and 8's!!! I sold all my 8 and 10s now my car sits on wood blocks!!! Nobody can produce new 6 and 8s so what am I supposed to do? Should have kept my big wheels and at least I could race!

Dennis - I dont think Thomas was saying we all had to buy little wheels, he just wants the big wheels included. I would be fighting with you Thomas if it was a month ago but now I have no wheels. Maybe I should just buy 8 and 10's, plenty of those for sale!

Not allowing (I know they are allowed in pro f2000 but might as well not be) big wheels is a monetary hardship. I have to buy little wheels that don't even exist! No tests were ever performed to see if the big wheels were an advantage.

At least Pennon wings and $8000 Ohlins are available - little wheels aren't! Sure wish I knew that before I sold my big wheels.

Fred and Keegan

[Douglas Kniffin]

What happened to the wheel deal through the series?

[Zebra]

I am trying to start trouble with the weight thing, now we are back to wheels again. Keagan I can't believe you left us and sold your wheels. You know there are at least 11 of us racing with 8's & 10's. Let the FC guys burn out with the Pinto Zetec aluminum heads (can you believe that they are trying upgrade the Pinto engine, I think the engine builders want to keep the pinto for selfish reasons) argument while we run around with ourselves.

I WANT THE WEIGHT INCREASED SO FAT PEOPLE CAN WIN TOO

Your favorate troublemaker is back

Charles Finelli

[RussMcB]

Fred & Keegan (and anyone else with wide wheels wanting narrow wheels),

Contact me. I have 8-12 6"x8" OZ wheels. I'll swap with you. I can use your wide wheels on my F1000.

[Greg Mercurio]

Keep trying Thomas. I'd love to have 8's and 10's.

BTW today (Friday) is the last day to register for the Double National. You knew that right?

[GR]

Russ,

Send me an email with your "inventory", incl pics if possible.

Tx

[RussMcB]

GR, you're the third person to contact me with interest. This weekend I will take pictures, measure backspace, etc. and respond to interested parties.

BTW, my 6" & 8" wheels are 5 spoke OZ's. I have 12 wheels, but will probably keep one set for rains.

[KWilliams]

All,
One factor that I think has not been addressed is the maximum width issue. If you bolt on wheels with the same offset, it would be too wide (assuming others have wide suspension that is at the limit of the rules). If I buy wheels with a different offset by 1" then the King Pin Offset is out of whack. This puts us into a redesign of suspension. The reason that having Zetec's go to 6/8 is because they are being allowed to enter into our class of club racing; FC. And, by them going to 6/8 the car is still leagal on width and the suspension geometry does not need changed provided they purcahse the same offset.

I am really suprised about this thread as this is a FORMULA class and the formula is set. There is not a shortage of wheel manufactures and wheels (BBS/Kodiak, Jongblod, OZ, etc). The tire develop is mature for this class and the currect wheel size. If we screw with the class then, we will all pay more money. Let's leave the rules alone.

As to the weight issue, I think the class has addressed this already with the weight change from 1175 to 1190. I weight 175 and carry a LOT of weight in my Citation. In my estimation the weight was increased because VD's car was heaveier and they did not want to design to the weight of the class. Politics in action. On the safety side, I don't think we want to raise the weight any more as some cars are carring a great deal of lead and I think this is an issue of safety. We are not bolting lead to a Camero frame in this class.

Remember if we keep changing the formula, then the guys with the BIG BUCKS will always win because they can afford to redevelop and redevelop and spend the money. Lets not have a few people create situations were the masses have to spend more money in a mature class.

Keith

[Dave Belz]

Kieth,
What year VD weighed enough to merit a weight increase for the class, I have a 95 VD with probably 50 pounds of additional ballast. BTW, I'm several years older than Charles. Should I be flattered or offended by the "kid" comment (on one of several weight posts he made)?

Dave

[RobLav]

Keith's right. The min weight used to be 1175 - now 1190. It changed somewhere between 2002 and 2004 to make the VD more competitive - politics. It should have stayed at 1175 since that was the "formula". Same "formula" applies to wheel width. Keep it 6 and 8.

[Douglas Brenner]

The width issue has already been addressed. I believe that the rear with is the one they check and the front can be wider. In a Van Dieman, the rear is narrower, so maybe it is not an issure. Is it possible that the 8" rears would work for the front, or is the offset incorrect? Another possible advantage to wider wheels is that there could be more tire choices.

[KVS84]

I dont think anyone said that the wheel size should be changed. They are asking for the bigger wheels to be included. There should be some testing done like with the engines to determine if the big wheel is in fact an advantage and if so give it a weight handicap. Saying the big wheels might be better some places is just like the wings. That fancy front wing might be better at lime rock but no better than a stock one at VIR so no I need to buy another front wing?? Anyone have 12 spoke OZ's so I can take my car off the wooden blocks?!?

-Keegan

[KVS84]

Charles,

If you can find enough lead to fit on my car I'll race you heads up at a test day at LRP!

-Keegan