RT5 Rettenmeier National Champion Car

[raceman52]

I have aquired the 1984 RT5 #5-543 of Lou Rettenmeier. I believe it to be a two or three time national champion ('85-'87?). Lou was crew chief or chief mech to P. Newman during the '80s. The car has Newman's Own sponsorship in the pics I have. I plan on restoring it to original. I have only two 3x5 pictures of it, and I'm looking for more.
The engine when I bought it was a mechanical F.I. water cooled VW 1835cc since it was a club FA instead of the original FC (Pro Super Vee). Can anyone help get started finding the regs for this class in '85. The closest I've come is Monoposto.
I'm also looking for help with parts, and restoration advise. I'd like to do a lot of the work myself, except for the tub, trans, engine (leave those for the experts). The log book says Retub AM-84-93 which I assumes means tub work done on 1993. It is not in too bad a shape except for bottom scrapes.
I drove a sister RT5 at Summit Point a few years back and it was a blast. Now that the kids are out of college I should be able to scrape up some $$ to do this.
All advise is greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Gregory J. White

[formulasuper]

Gregory, I have the "Robert Bosch/Volkswagen Super Vee Championship Regulations", 19 pages, that came with my 1983 RT5 when I bought it several years ago. There is no date on it, probably from 1983. I could make a copy of it if you think you would want it.

[RussMcB]

Gregory,

I remember that car. I started racing in 1984. My home track was Lime Rock Park. I'd attend SCCA National races and I remember Lou winning Formula Continental more often than not.

I think it is a great idea to return that car to original livery. There are probably a lot of people that would recognize it.

I may have some old Super Vee literature from that era. I'll check.

Do some Googling and you may find some interesting stuff. There was a registry for super vees. Dominic Balera (sp?) was a big proponent of FSV cars, but unfortunately, he's no longer with us. I'll bet there are still many FSV owners in the vintage/historic communities that can offer you help.

You may even be able to get in touch with Lou himself. I wonder if someone at LRP or Bob Sharp Racing that may be able to help you out.

BTW, I think that picture is from the "old" Bryar Motorsports Park, now NHIS. Looks like it is lined up near the duckworth, ready to grid.

On edit: http://bellsouthpwp.net/y/s/yspect8/..._reg/hfsvr.htm

[Michael Edick]

you WILL have lots of fun with this car!
my car was a complete basket case when I bought it, and I took it all the way down to the individual sheet aluminum panels before re-shooting all the rivets with the help of a friend of mine who works for Douglas Aircraft, and it was not as hard as I thought it would be...you'll save a ton of money if you do it yourself!
Just buy a decent air powered rivet gun, and some different sized bucking bars, buy your rivets from a reputable company (like Aircraft Spruce), look thru Carrol Smith's "Nut, Bolts and Fasteners" book for the basics, practice a bit on some scrap pieces to get the feel of bucking solid rivets (it's far different than pulling blind rivets!) and go for it! This way you can say you know EVERY last nut, bolt and rivet that went into your car!
the AM 84 93 means it was the 93rd chassis built in 1984 by Arch Motors, but that note was in the log book? check the front of the foot box bulkhead panel and see what that number is...
I do have quite a few digital photos of my car being rebuilt that I would be happy to email to you, plus check out my website (www.mteengineering.com) for photo's of the completed car. keep tabs here on Apex Speed for the various bits you'll need to finish it off, and there's lots of folks out there who have parts to sell, or can make them for you (here comes the shameless plug: like me!)
welcome to the wonderful world of Ralt FSV!

Michael
1980 Ralt RT5-196

[Charles Warner]

Gregory,

As Michael has pointed out the AM# designates the 93rd tub made in 1984. It does not, however, guarantee the tub was a 1984 RT5 tub spec piece. The 1984 RT series cars were quite unique so be very careful in accepting parts as for a generic RT-5. You'll have to make a lot of measurements and clarify up front that any parts you take will be accepted only in the case that they are indeed the parts you need. This can be especially true regarding suspension pieces as the factory tried several track widths and combinations thereof. The quickest setup was proven to be a wide track front with narrow track rear. There are a alot of medium track parts out there that were never really used. IIRC Ralt was making the shift from rocker cars to push/pull rod cars and the first iterations were pretty horrific. The 1984 was their first attempt. If you can post or email me some detailed pictures of the front suspension, including the sway bar fixtures and nose box I can probably come up with something definite.

[raceman52]

Gents- This is going to be interesting.

Scott - If you can .pdf the regs to me at gwhite2052@yahoo.com or send them to my home at 11 Grove Creek Circle Smithsburg, MD 21783 and thanks!

Russ - I did find Lou for awhile, but can't seem to get through to him now. He was doing a Busch North thing last I knew. He was glad to know the car was in one piece. I was curious if I could use the same decals on the original. He told me the Newman people would prefer not so I'll have to do something cute like "Newmans One" to skirt them. I lived in Danbury for twenty years and went to LRP for drivers school and BMWCCA play time. Any pictures you may have would be greatly appreciated. I'll get them back to you.

Michael - Thanks for the encouragement. As an engineer I'm game. I'll keep you in the loop as I get into the fine points. I would like to see whatever pics you want to send me.

Charles - I have attached pics of the front end, minus shocks and brakes. The AM 84 93 is stamped on the footbox bulkhead. I don't know why the note in the log book #1 says Re-Tub with that #. Same in book #2 from '88 when a Robert Cavanaugh owned it before I bought it from my team mate Matt Connolly during my Grand-Am Cup days.

[raceman52]

I'm moving my daughter to Pittsburgh over the next few days so I will be pretty scarce, but I'm on vacation until 9/18 and will continue the dialogue in earnst until work calls again.

Thanks again!
Greg

[stonebridge20]

Greg,

Lou lives 10 houses down from me on Route 39 South in Sherman, Connecticut. 06784 I would post a phone number, but I don't like to post other people's phone numbers on the web.

Good luck, Mike

[raceman52]

I was going to do a reverse search to see if he was listed in the white pages. I thought he was still in the LRP area. If that fails could you get him back in touch with me either through my email or this site?
Tx,
GJW

[Charles Warner]

From the pictures it is definitely a post-1983 car, and the rudimentary nature of the push rod suspension makes me pretty sure it is a 1984, There were a LOT of changes in the 1984 and 1985 versions as the factory tried to get their heads around this type of suspension. They were not used to playing with shock preload, etc. From the perspective I would have to say the front track is a wide track version. The narrow track was really narrow and the medium track was quite rare. Just verify all measurements before you buy stuff. Note that the rear suspension is not any different from 1983 to 1986 so that's not too hard to find.

There's a gent on the left coast named Bart Perlman who bought a 1984 RT-4 a few years ago and rebuilt it. He could be a good source for some information.

[raceman52]

Thanks Charles.
Is there any possibility that there is a original parts list for these cars, or do you just have to compare parts you want to replace with the parts you have?
Seems to me there should be an original build list somewhere.

Let me know how you have handled this in the past with other makes.
Tx,
GJW

[RussMcB]

<snip> Seems to me there should be an original build list somewhere.

Ha! What a funny jokester, you are. :-).

Here's my mismatched suspension experience:

When I bought my '83 RT-5, I noticed that the spring perches were not at the same places, side to side. I didn't have access to scales at the time, so I decided (foolishly) to make the spring perches symetrical while adjusting the ride height.

At my first test day, the left front wheel was locking up under braking. It turned out that the two front rocker arms had different angles, and therefore needed asymetrical spring adjustments. To correct the problem, I found a matching rocker arm. The difference between the rocker arms was not obvious until I looked closely. The track was the same. It was bizarre and eye-opening.

[formulasuper]

Ya, and guess who has that odd-ball rocker on their car now!

[raceman52]

I thought the two of you being in Marietta Ga. would have some connection. O.K. so I'm naive when it comes to formula cars. I thought it was worth a shot coming from Healy, Datsun, BMW experiences.

So I guess it's get out the micrometers and calipers for me....

[RVJ]

Nice thread you got going, guys... I've got chassis # 420 (83 ) and a tub marked AM also, which is the one I converted to 1984 suspension...wish it could be converted to the newer '86...still have to figure out actual length of A- arms make it narrow, mid or wide track...definetely different one to the other...I was once told the later year came with the wider tracks installed...mmm, in any case Pat at Prince race Cars in Sterling, IL have a lot of jigged tooling for susp parts and bracketry...Marc Bahner in the West coast also does a lot of beautiful chassis sections....just my 2 cents.

[Charles Warner]

If it's an option, take it back to 1983 front suspension. Much better, easier to adjust, and just plain faster. Fastest RT-4/5 ever was the 1983 with flat side pods (standard), wide track front and narrow track rear.

[Charles Warner]

Thanks Charles.
Is there any possibility that there is a original parts list for these cars, or do you just have to compare parts you want to replace with the parts you have?
Seems to me there should be an original build list somewhere.

Let me know how you have handled this in the past with other makes.
Tx,
GJW

While there should be a build sheet, they have all disappeared for some reason. Stuart might have one somewhere. Ralt doesn't as I sold all of the Ralt testing notes andncar data years ago. The only way to be sure is to make physical comaparisons. Trust no on - even your mother. Verify everything.

[raceman52]

O.K. We have been concentrating on replacement of parts. Is there any reason to do so on a vintage "rebuild"? I will race it when complete, but not to the limits. My plan was to take off all the upper and lower F&R "A" arms have them mag particaled or some other non-destruct test, re-welded if necessary, and powder coated silver for reuse. Any major issues with that? New rubber bushings (for authenticity), hardware and bingo "almost" like new. Risky or not?

Next is the "uprights". They appear to be interchangeable (L to R). They have brake caliper bolt holes on the front and rear. From what I observe there are some thread coils on the rear holes in mine do to the bolts having stripped them. Since brakes are important ( ) to me where would I find these "alloy" castings? If I should not change them from side to side what says moving the brakes to the front of the rotor can't be done. Crazy?

[RussMcB]

O.K. We have been concentrating on replacement of parts. Is there any reason to do so on a vintage "rebuild"? I will race it when complete, but not to the limits. My plan was to take off all the upper and lower F&R "A" arms have them mag particaled or some other non-destruct test, re-welded if necessary, and powder coated silver for reuse. Any major issues with that? New rubber bushings (for authenticity), hardware and bingo "almost" like new. Risky or not?

Sounds like a good plan. I don't think you'll find any rubber in there. It's pretty much a no-compliance suspension.

Next is the "uprights". They appear to be interchangeable (L to R). They have brake caliper bolt holes on the front and rear. From what I observe there are some thread coils on the rear holes in mine do to the bolts having stripped them. Since brakes are important ( ) to me where would I find these "alloy" castings? If I should not change them from side to side what says moving the brakes to the front of the rotor can't be done. Crazy?

I doubt it would be easy to find uprights. The repaired brake caliper threads may not be a problem, as long as it was done correctly and are not in there loose. The force is in tension (on edit: oops. Meant shear), so you don't really need to worry about the threads pulling out. I would do three things: 1) test them by mounting a caliper and torqueing the bolt to make sure the threads are not stripped. (Sorry, I don't know torque values you should use). 2) When you assemble them, use a good thread locker. 3) Make sure you use caliper bolts that can be safety wired.

I can't think of a safety reason why the calipers could not be moved to the front. Make sure the bleeders are on top and you have plenty of slack in lines thru the full range of motion.

[Charles Warner]

"Almost new?" Nope. You are just beginning, even if you are not planning on thrashing the car as they did in the pro series you have to examine and rebuild every part of it. Trust NONE of the work done before even if it was done by your best friend and ace mechanic. Only you can be responsible for your car and your posterior.

Prime problems can be associated with the security of the suspension mounting plates (ears) so they have to be inspected well and re-rivited (or replaced if damaged in a shunt) and glued if need be. The engine legs must be removed, cleaned, inspected and reinstalled using 14/28 bolts and epoxy.

Rebuild the brake calipers. Yes, they are interchangeable front to rear. Uprights are double handed. If the threaded inserts are dodgy just replace them with Keenserts or Timeserts and be done with it. Of course, rebuild the uprights with new bearings. New CVs are a must as are new master cylinders. Shocks have to be rebuilt, or replaced. Obviously rod ends must be carefully inspected and replaced as necessary. You mentioned hardware. Replace it all with good quality stuff. Get the proper length/grip bolts and use the appropriate washers and nuts. Have the fuel cell inspected and pressure tested by the local aircraft cell folks. New foam. Go through the box carefully. A little effort in that area now can prevent a big bill later. Pay extra attention to the pinion bearing.

One area of serious concern regarding the RT-4/5 series is the security and soundness of the rear wing. The original rear wing was simply two tubes butt-welded together inside the main element. These welds broke often. The factory thought was that the drivers would go through two or three wings a month so longevity was not an issue. Marc Bahner devised a better construction technique. Hopefully you have a Bahner rear wing. If not pay attention to any sort of movement of the rear element on its vertcal axis.

I could go on and one but you get the idea. It is a major project to revive a used race car so it can be driven safely. Lots of stuff needs to be done that you don't think about.

[formulasuper]

Sounds like a good plan. I don't think you'll find any rubber in there. It's pretty much a no-compliance suspension.

I doubt it would be easy to find uprights. The repaired brake caliper threads may not be a problem, as long as it was done correctly and are not in there loose. The force is in tension, so you don't really need to worry about the threads pulling out. I would do three things: 1) test them by mounting a caliper and torqueing the bolt to make sure the threads are not stripped. (Sorry, I don't know torque values you should use). 2) When you assemble them, use a good thread locker. 3) Make sure you use caliper bolts that can be safety wired.

I can't think of a safety reason why the calipers could not be moved to the front. Make sure the bleeders are on top and you have plenty of slack in lines thru the full range of motion.

Russ old buddy, I think you mean the force of the calipers on the uprights is in shear, not tension, but you've got the right idea about the holes. The calipers will fit on the front of the uprights, however I thought they were mounted on the aft side for better cooling. I don't know, just guessing.

[Charles Warner]

Scott,

I don't think there's any cooling differences regarding front or rear mounted calipers. Trend to put them in the front is to position their weight towards the center of the car. Whether that minor change in polar moment is effective is up in the air. Another one of those areas that boffins bandy about but I doubt affects the way you or I feel the car. Of course, all changes are cumulative so I guess it doesn't hurt unless it's a real PITA to do so.

[formulasuper]

Ya, I guess with the wheel completely blocking any moving air it doesn't matter where the caliper is. On my converted to FS car I have a single right side inboard brake rotor from a Sports 2000 which IS cooled by oncoming air so I figured the radial mounted 4 piston ZX10 motorcycle caliper should be on the aft side. Seems to work fine with the lighter weight of the car. Of course once I make some power upgrades to my stock 1300 Hayabusa engine I may find I'll need a vented rear rotor & a larger Wilwood caliper. Now if I could just find a sponsor to donate a small turbo kit I might be able to compete with the FAs & Pro Formula Mazdas! Well, FAs anyway.

[raceman52]

As you can see from the picture when I bought the car there were no brake ducts. The air intake although intact is showing wear from years of use. The side pods were repaired with fiberglass kits, and no skirts on them. No mirrors, etc. Since the car had a blown engine it was being used for display purposes at the time.

Where does one find the body parts for this vintage car?

I also have the original "black" magnesium wheels shown on the original photo. They have developed white spot corrosion on them from being used as rain tires previously. Can they be cleaned? If so what is the recommended method?

[Charles Warner]

As a quick reply to one of your issues, the sidepods are known as the flat side pod variety. They were de rigeur up to the change to coke bottle shape in 1986. Most cars were retrofitted with 1986 pods as they produced more downforce. (As an aside, the 1987 variation of rear suspension and pods produced too much downforce and cars were retrofitted with 1986 units.) The flat pods are quicker in a straight line by far and, IMO, better looking. Keep them. As far as new units, I believe Brian Utt is the only source and he only has molds for the 1986 pods, so fixing them is probably the answer unless you can find enough guys who want to go together and have Brian make molds of the early ones. Noses and engine covers and cockpits are difficult to find. I don't know anyone who has the molds although they must be available. Again, with so many RT-4/5 cars coming out into vintage racing it might be a viable entertprise.

You might be able to clean the original mags with some WD40 if the corrosion is not too bad. However, I would wait for some of the chemical experts on the forum to chime in. The original wheels should undergo NDT which will require they be stripped so them you can paint as you wish.

[Michael Edick]

I could go on and one but you get the idea. It is a major project to revive a used race car so it can be driven safely. Lots of stuff needs to be done that you don't think about.

Truer words were never spoken! I went thru every last nut, bolt and rivet in my rebuild, and very glad I did...these cars are wicked fast and OLD...old parts, old technology...

My car has the flat sided side pods, and was able to pull away from an atlantic car with a Toyota motor down the long front straight away and thru the banking at Cal Speedway...I didn't think of it until later, but I'm going almost as fast as a mordern era FA, but with out the modern era safety features...it can't be said enough: go thru everything!

As far as body work, I bought a complete set from Ben Beasley years ago, hoping to update my chassis to the 1986 pods, only to find out later that my 1980 tub won't accept the '86 glass...Ben used to take old RT4's and 5's and convert them to sports racers, and at the time had multiple sets of bodies just lying around taking up his space, so he was eager to get rid of them...don't know if he has any parts left, but it's probably worth a phone call...

Fuel cell: save yourself alot of grief and buy a NEW one...not only is the foam going to turn to dust when you go to put fuel in it and clog up everything (experience talking here!), the old Marston cells are a rubber compond product, and crack with age...I asked Fuel Safe if they could "fix" mine...they wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole!

[raceman52]

I could use some enlightenment on the ignition for these machines. The pictures attached are of the dash (relatively) original with the exception of a Racetech guage (left) and a original and probably not functional Smith on the right. The box has the "Lumenition" module, ballast, and coil. According to the diagram there is a engine speed limiter, and a relay in the system. Neither of which were on the car when purchased. Please advise. I have googled Lumenition and they seemed to have been bought over the years and are in chapter 11 again. Emailing the blokes across the pond doesn't seem to get a response.

Also, notice the deformed swirl tank in the photo. Since I'm doing a resto I would like to keep as much original as possible. Any ideas where to get my hands on one of these, or should I just have one fabbed?

By the way, thanks for all your advise gents. I am taking the experiences of others very seriously in this matter and being pretty anal about this intend not to take any shortcuts.

Greg

[Charles Warner]

Greg,

The tanks are hard to find so have that one repaired. It should cost less than having a new one made as they are quite complicated. From the tank it looks as if the car took a good hit on that side. You definitely will have to pull the engine legs and re-glue them. At the same time pull the cell and have a new one made as Michael suggested. Scrap the ignition system and go with whatever system your engine guy recommends. Those are unobtainable, didn't work very well when new, nd there are much more reliable systems available now.

A lot of work and perseverence and you can have a car as nice as Michael's.

[raceman52]

Charlie,
I take it from your advise that the "market" for restorations in racing is not the same as classic cars? The need for OEM parts is not as important in the value? I'm not looking to make money here, but is there less importance put on original condition for collectors?

The sister car I drove had a Motec with electronic F.I. This was not the original config for this car, but it ran like a bat out of hell.
GJW

[Charles Warner]

Greg,

No, the market is much less finnicky about the car being exactly as it was. Basic acknowledgements to originality - i.e. engine type/size, gearbox, body, wings, etc are valuable and there is very little value (IMO) for a car that has been chopped up. That said, OEM parts are not important, and almost impossible to find. The injected 1,8 VW is a great motor, if somewhat fragile, depending on how tight you wind the rubber band.

Just keep in sprit with the rules of the class (either FV or Atlantic) and keep it a Ralt with the VW powerplant and you'll be fine. These cars have a life in historic.vintage racing and they will become more desirable as more groups allow ground effects cars. There are some out there available for stupid money and those probably won't sell until the prices are dropped.

Hang on to yours, restore it and have fun racing it.

[RussMcB]

I don't disagree with the advice above, but my RT-5 (sold last year) had two original style aluminum boxes like yours and I thought it was kinda neat to have the original set up. My car ran great with the Lumenition system and I could easily swap the two.

[Michael Edick]

My motor was set up with an Electromotive ignition system and using the mechanical fuel injection...a little hard to start at times, but runs like a rocket once she does light up, and have had no problems with it...my 2 cents.

[RVJ]

I found a brand new, unused 1986 RT5 top engine cover I bought years ago from Brian Utt, I'm definetly not going to use at all....anybody interested in it, drop me a note..I want to get it out of here, but shipping will be high due to distance( UPS has gone up quite a bit since). still should end up being cheaper..anyone interested in a spare? A picture might give a better idea...
Ricardo

[RVJ]

I took out my stock Lumenition and went with Electromotive for a while...now I'm playing with Megasquirt fuel injection boxes, (they are compatible with 60-2 teeth wheels in the crank, small, one box controls both ign and fuel, programable, cheap, easy to install, etc)....BUT, Historic racing rules ( I think SVRA too) used to require stock ignition triggering for the era...I found that out while researching the rules for D-Production 924's and confirmed last year with the Tech Director...just in case.
Ricardo