Zetec / Pinto Rule Change?

[jonbaytos]

How is one going to determine performance potential?The engine builder can't possibly do this, as the dyno does not represent true conditions.Who will be the judge?What chassis,tire,damper,aero,driver,package will be used to compare?Seems that the testing that has been done is fairly "loosey goosey".Panic from one race surely can't be used as relative data.Who is going to pay for the correct testing?Seems that by the time this is worked out the Zetec will only be available in your local wrecking yard.So what was the objective?I realize that a lot of people did some good work on this project,but I just fail to see the benefit with regard to FC numbers,or anything else for that matter.Are there really 4 different kinds of Zetec formulas out there?[Cooper,Pacific,F2000twice/SCCA club]If that is not confusing to a newbie I don't know what is.

[DFR Dave Freitas]

Les Phillips is running his Mygale Zetec as a FC at many of the west coast National races this season as well as doing all the Pacific F2000 races. Les also used to race an 01 VD pinto, so it might not be a bad idea for someone to call him and get his opinion.

[jim morgan]

as i see this issue the problem is a lack of reliable data as noted earlier ricardo vassmer tested the mystery mapping at homestead he also ran one of the best pinto programs last year he is also currently running one of the front pro zetec cars in the cooper series he is a strong front runner and should eliminate the driver issue adjusted for the hankook testing has anyone sought his input
when the smoke clears how many of us pinto teams are bringing a borrowed zetec to kansas for insurance

[Les Phillips]

I find this alarm more than amazing. I may have more miles than anybody in the entire country in the combination of Pinto and the current Pacific F2000 spec, or what is also the SCCA Spec. I raced the 01 VD with Pinto power for three years, several Pinots before the 01, and have raced the Mygale Zetec for 2.5 years. In addition, there exists thousands of miles of experience and data gained by top drivers testing and racing with top teams in preparation for Nationals, Pacific F2000 and Cooper Series races here on the West Coast. (Note the success of the quick drivers from the West in the Cooper Series. They are just some of the individuals that have the comparative experience and there are many more behind them.)

The "outsiders" here in the West have watched with great amusement over the past several months the groping for the perfect answer. There is no perfect answer. It is a very clear fact however that a Pacific F2000 car with the added weight will not run with a top Pinto. Weight, like size, does matter.

I raced the Double National in AZ in January with the first SCCA map and would not have run anymore races if that were the answer. Far too slow and no fun to drive. SCCA National Tech agreed and said the map was the Pacific Map. Since then I have raced Nationals with the Pacific F2000 map, small restrictor, and the car is close enough to be interesting. I will not waste my money on the runoffs however as it is not competitive due to the weight.

What is the real answer or goal of each individual. In my world cost has meaning. I have never raced as cheaply in any class as I am now. By racing on radials that are not yet competitive and by using the Zetec my racing is a lot more satisfying and a lot cheaper than the "car for the people", the Spec Racer Ford.

My advice would be to worry a lot less about this horrible threat from the Zetec and worry if you will even have an SCCA or an FC class to race as you know it today.

Ask your Area Director what the cash balance was for SCCA five years ago and what it is today. If you get an answer let me know as I suspect those facts are being carefully concealed, even from Directors. There are huge problems lurking and they are not being addressed or even acknowledged. A minuscule amount of power is not the issue. Let's just go race and see how the chips fall. Nobody is being gored and our racing opportunites are being expanded. With the current path of SCCA National finances the whole amateur racing world could look very different in a very short time.

Les Phillips
Pacific F2000

[B. Wilson]

Les,

Way to go, KILLING another thread. Oh, does the truth hurt.

Bill

[D.T. Benner]

Are you talking about the FranAm settlelment cost?

[Steve Demeter]

In Les Phillips posat he refers to 2 distinctive maps, the SCCA map and the Pacific map.

He cites significant performance improvements with the Pacific map versus the SCCA map.

He said that he was told by "SCCA National" that the Pacific map was it.

If the Pacific map and the SCCA map are in fact one in the same, then how does Les realize significant performance improvements with the Pacific map.

The GCR clearly states that the SCCA map is the one to be used. If "SCCA National" told Les that the "Pacific Map" is it, then how could have a change not been made to the rules.

Steve Demeter

I think that a lot of clarification is needed as to just how the map changed but not the rules.

[Dave Gomberg]

In Les Phillips posat he refers to 2 distinctive maps, the SCCA map and the Pacific map. ...

Your question has already been answered. The original test at Pocono (August, 2005) was with the Pacific map. Although the test went pretty well, there was some concern about the torque in that map. Another candidate map was created and tested at Sebring. (This is the "SCCA map" that Les used briefly.) That candidate map proved to be crippling. The Pacific map was retained as the official "SCCA Club Map".

For what I hope is the last time: the CRB and the F/SRAC will continue to monitor what happens with the Zetec. Additional competition adjustments (maps, weights, restrictors) will be made as warranted during the 2006 and 2007 seasons to arrive at as good a match between the Zetec and Pinto as we can for 2008.

Dave

[Thomas Copeland]

So you're saying there should be no parity before 2008? You guarantee that?

Also, why can't the SCCA at least inform us that the Pacific map is now the approved SCCA map? Isn't that what Fastrak is suppose to be for? Not to insult Apexspeed, but why do we have to find out from some blog? It's this secrecy I find troubling.

[Triallyr]

And what about the grassy knoll? What's with all this conspiracy crap?

I ran a Zetec in the Pacific 2000 with Les and I still got beat (by some Pintos no less!), how is this possible Was it wrong for me to blame my losses on my crew chief (10 year old daughter) ? Some people said the Mygal chassis was a much more competitive car, maybe that was the problem. But wait...doesn't DFR campaign a VD? And how is he doing in the series? And remind me again what happened at BW at the end of las season? Didn't the best driver smoke everyone in an old VD/Pinto that he borrowed at the last minute? How many of the Pinto drivers in Les' series feel that the parity is not there? What's all this crap about making certain the Zetec has no chance to win until 2008, don't you guys want to race? In my hands, I'm not sure the Zetec ever had a chance to win. I didn't win because I was not the best driver, others did because they were. Anyone know where I can buy the perfect excuse... a Pinto powered Mygal?

BTW Les, thanks for continuing to contribute to all that is racing.


Steven
Pacific 2000 mid-packer on a good day

[Thomas Copeland]

Oh good grief!....nobody's talking about conspiracy....

The point is that the Zetecs were supposed to be phased into FC over a period of time and not run with anything resembling a Pro spec trim. And now we find out that they have a pro series engine map. I mean...come on man!!!

The map was suppose to be something called an "SCCA map". The map was suppose to be CRIPPLING. Not equal or near equal. CRIPPLING. They didn't like what they saw so they changed the map. They changed the map after the season started. And then they didn't tell anybody. Had to find out about it on a blog for christ' sake! That's being secretive. No conspiracy, just secretive.

...and then they wonder why no one trusts the CRB anymore. DUH....

I'm all for giving the Zetecs a chance in SCCA which is why I sent in a letter supporting it. But it has to be done properly and over a period of time. Not like bang...here we are. Suddenly everythings equal. Because everyone knows that's B.S.

At Buttonwillow last year the Pintos ran bias tires. It gave them a fighting chance against what was and still is a superior car. Not even Schumacher could win in that series now running a Pinto on radial tires. While I plan to run more West Coast series races this year and am enormously gratiful for guys like Les who make the series possible I'm under no fantasy about my chances of winning in my Pinto. Even if I were suddenly hit by a bolt of light and given god like super natural racing powers.

[Stan Clayton]

Guaranty no parity before 2008? Tom, I can't even guarantee death and taxes, much less what the slightest change to the Zetec spec will or won't do. Heck, the map QS came up with for the final draft of the proposal last fall was supposed to place the car 1-2 seconds off the pace. When 5 different drivers in 3 cars ran 8-12 seconds off the pace we didn't have an underdog -- we had a undrivable piece of crap. As it stands we have a car which in the limted club racing done to date has been 2-4 seconds off the pace, and is due for an update and adjustment.

Besides, there haven't been any changes to announce. When the Zetec was approved in FC on January 1st, no map was officially designated. We had to wait until after some actual testing for that to happen, and then it was posted to the Tech Form website, as directed in the GCR. That completed the base-line, from which changes will be announced in Fastrack and posted to the Tech Form.

Since a bunch of folks seem to be confused as to the time line, here is the schedule we on the CRB are working from:

Mid-season 2006 review and adjustment (recommendation due shortly from the F/SRAC)

Post-2006 Runoffs review and adjustment

Mid-season 2007 review and adjustment

Post-2007 Runoffs review and adjustment if needed

Regards, Stan

[Stan Clayton]

The map was suppose to be something called an "SCCA map". The map was suppose to be CRIPPLING. Not equal or near equal. CRIPPLING. They didn't like what they saw so they changed the map. They changed the map after the season started. And then they didn't tell anybody. Had to find out about it on a blog for christ' sake! That's being secretive. No conspiracy, just secretive.

As a member of the F/SRAC and the CRB I have been involved in this project from the beginning and there has never been any serious discussion of "CRIPPLING" the Zetec. The correct description is that it would start out at a "competitive disadvantage". One cannot gather meaningful competitive data from something crippled. It has to be at least marginally competitive to get any useful comparative data from it.

The second item you have incorrect is that we changed the map. There was no official map until we designated one in late January. I know of 2 maps that were tried out, but you can read on these threads where some folks say there were more than that. Nonetheless, there has been only one official SCCA map for the Zetec since the engine was approved for FC.

Moreover, did you ever call SCCA and ask about the status of the Zetec? It's an 800 number so it doesn't even cost anything to make the call. At some level everyone who has a stake in this process needs to avail themselves of the information available for the asking. If you are upset about reading of the status of the program on a blog, then I suggest you take a more proactive stance.

One last point and then I think I've spent enough time on this thread. It is the responsibility of the CRB to manage this program to achieve parity between the Pinto and the Zetec over the next year-plus. The term "manage" implies active involvement, so one and all should anticipate an adjustment in the next month or so, and then another after the Runoffs, and then another and another... Those adjustments are intended to move the two engines EVER CLOSER TOGETHER IN PERFORMANCE.

Input and feedback is always welcome at crb@scca.com, but make no mistake about it -- parity IS the intent of the program.

Regards, Stan

[Steve Demeter]

So what you are saying then Stan is that when the GCR went to press, there was no "official" "SCCA Map".

Even though the GCR specifically refers to one.

And that when the originally "Official SCCA Map" was tried, after the GCR was in print, after the original was tested, and found to be non competitive, the powers that be decided to change it and not bother to inform the membership at large (you know the guys who have lots of their money invested in Pinto cars). It is apparent that the change and informing those affected by it was carried out in a piss poor manner.


Had the change from what apparently was percieved to be the SCCA Map to the Pacific Map becoming the "new improved SCCA Map" been communicated openly to the FC community, the posts would be a lot different.

While, all the members of the BOD, Comp Board, Ad Hoc committees serve as volunteers and their efforts , in general are highly appreciated by the membership (I know sometimes this does not seem to be the case), they all need to do a much much better job of open and candid communications.

Had that been done in this case, a lot of hard feelings, nasty posts and the like would be avoided. Please let's all try to learn from this and not make the same mistake again.

[Thomas Copeland]

Thanks for the clarity Stan. That was all good info. Maybe this thread can finally be put to rest and I can now correct some of the misconceptions I had about what went on. Yes, I did contact the SCCA regarding the status of the Zetec program and about being more open in informing it's members about the status of the program. I really don't know where the program is right now and from reading all these posts I'm in a pretty crowded boat here. I wasn't sure who was in charge of it (does anybody know?) so I wrote directly to the director of club racing. That was more than a week ago. Got a receipt for the email but still waiting to hear back on the issues I raised.

I know the work you and everyone else is is doing must be a difficult one and I appreicate all the hard work everyone is putting into it. It's a nearly joyless job with very little compensation. There was a lot a resistance to even allowing the Zetec in FC. Having Zetec be part of FC is in all of our best interest. Thanks for all the hard work.

P.S. Stan, I can at least guarantee you taxes. My mailbox always seems to be chock full of love letters from the IRS. If you ever get lonely I can give you some of them.

[Dave Gomberg]

So what you are saying then Stan is that when the GCR went to press, there was no "official" "SCCA Map".

Even though the GCR specifically refers to one.

Steve:

Do you have any idea how far in advance the GCR content has to done for it to be published each year? Yes, we wrote that there would be an SCCA Map, knowing full well that we didn't have one at that time. We did testing and adopted one. ONE. We will, as Stan has outlined, make changes (as competition adjustments, not rules changes) as time goes on - these were always planned. We will examine where things are twice a year (or even more often if need be. As necessary, we will adjust the map or the restrictor or the weight penalty - or some combination of those. If you still think the black helicopters are up there, its your problem. There are only so many ways we can tell you that.

Dave

[BGilkes]

Just as a matter of interest (normally I run some SE, NE and occasional central nationals but haven't this year for a couple of reasons) are there very many Zetec spec continentals running in the nationals or regionals in the divisions that I mentioned above, or are they getting lured away by the 2 pro series?
Brent

[Mark H]

Since there haven't been any Zetec cars racing in the Nat events so far this deal is kinda moot anyhow. You would think that if it was a big advantage all the guys with big $$ would have went out and bought one? There are only about 5-6 drivers who can win the run-offs anyhow, no matter what kind of engine is out back.... so untill one of these guys shows up with a Zetec we will never know?

The true test will come when someone that qualified in the top 5 or so at last years RO's shows up with a Zetec, woulden't it be crazy if Jeremie Hill bought one ? And then if the car was a big advantage a smart driver would only drive 9/10ths untill the pace lap at HPT? or
Being a slower driver, if I had the $$ I think that I would buy a Zetec, if it gave me an advantage great if not it will soon.

The post that Jon B also made sense ...soon the Zetec will be out of production....then what? Will it be like IT with pages of rules and many weight and engine combos with still only one car that has a REAL chance to win if all the fast guys show up? I mean sure you can still show up with a 240Z and start an ITS race but if a BMW shows up with a avrage driver and your Senna the Bemmer is gonna still win.

[D.T. Benner]

Here in northern California we have 1 former Pro Zetec that is being set up for Scca FC. The driver has been working out of the country for 8 months and has a steep learning curve ahead(Frank Williamson)and 1 late VanDiemen being converted from Pinto to FC Zetec (Doug Brenner) and 2 Late VanDiemens that WILL be converted from Pinto to FC Zetec over the next winter (Thomas Copeland & Bill Kinkade) All these drivers plan to compete in SCCA Nationals. So I guess next year we will see how it goes!

[greg pizzo]

Darrel .. I guess it takes about a year or so to fall off the map LOL ....

Finally the frankenstien car lives again ...but this time with Pro zetec power .....so far .. more to come soon ..

We plan to do some local races as well soon .............maybe T-hill ???

so that makes one more ....and there is another soon too.............. remeber Jeff McCormick way back .. he will be coming out soon too

[Steve Demeter]

Dave G.,
You make my point.

The original SCCA Map was clearly identified as Les Phillips pointed out. He had it in his car and the result was seriously poor performance.

Les stated that he contacted SCCA National and was told that the Pacific map was the new official SCCA Map. Not the original SCCA map developed in 2005.

What I am saying is that there was clearly a change, as evidenced by Les having the "original SCCA Map" in his car and then being told that the "Pacific Map" is the new official "SCCA Map".

It doesn't matter how far in advance the GCR materials are required. There is a mechanism to inform the membership of changes in specifications, that is called Fastrack, and to make a change without publishing it there only opens up the question of the credibility of the VOLUNTEER individuals making these decisions. Open and transparent communications.

Steve

[Stan Clayton]

Okay, I'll weigh in one more time.

No, Steve, the map used by Les in Phoenix and by Bob Wright's team in Florida in January was NOT the official SCCA map. It was an untried map which came up with the package from the F/SRAC. As I have have already reported, the CRB had not yet identified an official map in early January and were encouraging anyone who wanted to run a Zetec to do so with one of the available maps. Les's feedback, and that of Bob Wright, was that the map did not work well enough for consideration. The CRB did not identify any "official" map until after we got feedback from those sessions, and the only map ever identified as "official" was the Pacific.

You can call it piss-poor planning on our part, but you'll just have to get over it. I have...

Stan

[D.T. Benner]

No Greg I did not forget about you! I was under the impression that you were only going to run Cooper Series Pro races and the reply was about people running Zetecs in SCCA Formula "C". Hope to see you back in a racecar soon!

[Steve Demeter]

So what you are saying then Stan is that Ztec cars were allowed to compete in National events as FC using an "Official SCCA Map" that in fact did not exist.

So how can the CRB be sure what map was infact used??

Piss poor planniung is really a kind way to describe it.

If it appears that I am being critical of the CRB, you bet your butt I am.

It would have been opne thing to inform ALL affected parties of this delimina prior, but it is another thing entirely to not inform people of it and to ahve it come to light through the rumor mill and then try to defend an indefensible positiion.

The CRB VOLUNTEERS simply need to stand up and admit "we screwed up royally" and explain how similar screw ups will be prevented in the future.

Steve

[jim morgan]

can't we quit argueing about the rules and just go back to cheating like the generations of racers before us

[Triallyr]

can't we quit argueing about the rules and just go back to cheating like the generations of racers before us

Problem solved

[Douglas Brenner]

In what real world situation, except for the runoffs, is a FC car actually able to race with another FC car??? I have been in four nationals and been hit 5 times. The only time a actually saw one of my fellow FC cars was in the first National at Buttonwillow. I was actually behind the leading FC car for about a lap and a half until a CSR slug passed me on the straight and then proceeded to slow my up so that a badly driven FA Mazda got past and proceeded to cause a big crash which put me and several others out of the race (Les Philips can document this).
I have come to the sad conclusion that in actuality we are going to have to race in "Formula Alphabet" (I know this is really funny to the SCCA workers who get to watch but I fail to see the humor) instead of with the FFs where we belong, so the only way to save FC is to get more HP. I am all for getting the Zetec to put out as much HP as the LD200 can take. Then maybe I can defend myself against wankers with HP. This is the only thing that will save FC as a viable class. If I could afford a FA car I would get one.

[greg pizzo]

I really have to agree with Doug...

In 2004 I competed in handfull of national races ( a couple of regionals when on a national weekend) out of the 4 events I was hit or run off the road by a car that was not even racing with ...(while I was in the LEAD of my own race !!!! ) HENCE I have very much LESS than eager to return to "club" racing .... although it may be margially less money (mostly with respect to travel) it is BY FAR more expensive in CRASH damage (for NO REASON !!!) .... <I will attempt to be nice here> ........ the "club level" of talant or COMMON SENSE has been SERIOUSLY delutted ( maybe just out here..maybe) ......my brief experience with the PRO folks (Cooper mainly) has been JUST the opposite !! CLASS ACT ALMOST ACCROSS THE BOARD!!! .... even being a slower pinto powered car in 2004 ......... close wheel to wheels but narry a bump!! and when being passed these guys were GREAT !!!
MY conclusion was ........ better to race LESS than with some of the "club folks" out here.............NOT TO SAY there are not good heads up driving going on ............BUT it only takes a few wankers with HP to ruin an entire run group ...and the current mix of cars leaves ALOT to be desired as far as HAVING A RACE goes .........Even if we had more FC's out here ......it would a brave thing to come out and BRAVE the current mix of cars in SCCA's groupings out here ............... not withstanding ....ALOT of the BLAME lays squarely at the feet of the stewards that seem to be afraid to really send a message !!! ...........

I have raced in a few different regions that run FF FC F500 and FV all together it was great everyone played well together and the HP diffences made it REALLY easy to RACE with your own folks!!!!... and NO indestructable tanks to dodge or to be RUN OVER BY ........................loved it !!

just my $.02 ...........and might only be worth $.01......but said never the less .............

Doug ...YOUR TURN!!!! ..... and DARRELL .. this doesnt mean you are off the hook either !.. I will come out and play soon!!!! ..............just may need body armour LOL

[mark defer]

jim.................. don't make me come down there!!

mark d