Results 1 to 25 of 25
  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    05.28.16
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    134
    Liked: 244

    Default Formula F Tire Rule Change Submission, Jan 27, 2025

    Call to Action: FF drivers, crew, and other interested parties: You’ve likely seen some action from us and ZOOM meeting notes regarding a tire rule change we intended to make. The change request submission was entered into the SCCA letter system a few minutes ago. It is letter #37802. The submission is published just below.

    The SCCA needs to know your in favor of this change in the next couple of days. We implore you to submit your own letter with the tittle “I support Letter #37802” and in the description restate it as “I support Letter #37802”. Naturally, you can expand your thoughts if you wish to do so.

    Surf to www.clubracingboard.com to fill out the form that is your letter. You will need to enter your name, phone number, email address, and member #. Then select Club Racing Board, Formula/Sports Racing, and finally FF as the class.

    If you are not a member and want to show your support, please email me at formulafusa@gmail.com and let me know you support it. I will compile a list and forward it to the CRB. Our hope is this rule will bring new or returning people to the SCCA, so having a list of potential new people could really help this change go through.

    Many people have told us they want this tire rule change. This is your chance to be heard. The goal is 75+ of you to support letter #37802. Please like this post if you intend or did send in a letter so we can keep count.

    Please note: Hoosier does no longer makes bias ply rains of appropriate dimensions. They suggest using the radial rains or the VFF tire. For rain, the radials like less camber than in the dry so the bias ply camber happens to work well for the radial rains.

    The CRB Submission:

    A large group of Formula F competitors have banded together to promote the SCCA FF class. We would like to dramatically increase participation over the next few years. We have put a growth plan together based on the B-Spec growth plan with the key element being to network with car owners to help them get to SCCA Majors. 2/3 of the people on our list do not run with SCCA. Note that the current Majors competitors like the current rules package and started this journey thinking there was no need for change. However, in our talks with the non-SCCA Majors competitors they note the current tire rule as being their primary barrier. A surprisingly big barrier. We have had a ZOOM call every Thursday for 12 of the last 13 weeks for all of us to discuss these topics. Our talks have uncovered three situations:

    1. The folks that generally fit into the CFF era of cars run either the treaded vintage Hoosier tire (VFF) or the Hoosier R60 bias ply tires. They love those tires and do not want to switch to radials to run SCCA Majors. However, dozens note they would like to run in Majors. Coincidently, most SCCA divisions allow these other Hoosier tires per their CFF rules.
    2. Those of us who currently run SCCA Majors like the currently mandated radial.
    3. There is an era of cars in between. Swift DB1 and Pre-1990 Reynard’s with rocker-arm suspensions who say they can’t put enough camber in the car to run the radials. And note that when they try the cars just aren’t fun. So they race elsewhere or just park the cars out of frustration. They firmly want to run the Hoosier R60 Bias ply tire.


    Based on these studies and debate, during last Thursday’s ZOOM meeting we narrowed down the options and agreed to request the following tire rule change. The beginning of the rule is the same as today:

    9.1.1.B.10
    e. Formula F shall be limited to the following tires (front tires may not be used as rears):

    Dries: Front- Hoosier R60A Radial 43322 or F1600 Radial 43321 185/60R13
    Rear- Hoosier R60A Radial 43327 or F1600 Radial 43326 205/60R13
    Wets: Front-Hoosier Wet or W3 Radial 44421 185/60R13
    Rear-Hoosier Wet or W3 Radial 44426 205/60R13

    In addition to the above, FF cars with rocker-arm suspensions (example: Swift DB1, 1987-90 Reynard) and/or outboard suspension on at least one end (commonly called CFF) may use the following tires:

    Dries: Front - Hoosier H43130R60A 20.0 x 6.0-13 bias ply slick
    Rear – Hoosier H43307R60A 22.5 x 7.2-13 bias ply slick
    Wets: Use the Radial wets or VFF listed above.
    or
    Front - Hoosier 44165 135/545-13 VFF
    Rear - Hoosier 44170 165/580-13 VFF

    Tires may not be mixed i.e. bias tires may not be mixed with radial or VFF and vice versa.

    The above is the extent of the rule change we are requesting. Please note:

    1. I also talked to Bruce Foss at Hoosier a couple times as the concept matured, and he agrees this should help drive participation and the change is of no concern to Hoosier.
    2. This letter supersedes #37499 I submitted on December 5, 2024. Our group has grown dramatically since then and we’re a lot smarter now.
    3. This rule change does not have a negative impact on any FF cars currently competing under the existing tire rule.
    4. Surf to www.Formulafusa.com or Formula F/1600 Racing USA on Facebook to see what we are aspiring to accomplish.
    Thanks,

    Tony Stefanelli

  2. The following 7 users liked this post:


  3. #2
    Classifieds Super License Messenger Racing's Avatar
    Join Date
    08.25.03
    Location
    Muleshoe, Texas USA
    Posts
    1,076
    Liked: 211

    Default Support for letter #37802

    My support letter has been submitted. I believe a rules meeting will be occurring with a week so it is very important that our letters be submitted NOW! Here is the link:

    https://crbscca.com/

    This is exciting and I truly look forward to growing the Formula F umbrella to a much more inclusive group of the class I love.

    JM
    RaceDog
    Messenger Racing
    Muleshoe, Texas USA

  4. The following members LIKED this post:


  5. #3
    Senior Member cliff's Avatar
    Join Date
    01.31.02
    Location
    kansas city, MO
    Posts
    378
    Liked: 97

    Default Letter

    Done
    To Tony and Jay, thanks for all of your work on this!
    See you at the track!

  6. The following members LIKED this post:


  7. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    05.29.19
    Location
    villa park, illinois
    Posts
    120
    Liked: 153

    Default Support submitted

    Since you submitted 37802, 25 more have been submitted in the last 12 hours. I know not all are regarding the FF tire, but I am guessing most are. Keep it up!

  8. The following 2 users liked this post:


  9. #5
    Contributing Member CF56's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.11.02
    Location
    Gilbert, SC
    Posts
    217
    Liked: 81

    Default

    Letter submitted


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Kevin
    Crossle 35F
    Van Diemen RF02

  10. The following members LIKED this post:


  11. #6
    Contributing Member Garey Guzman's Avatar
    Join Date
    09.09.02
    Location
    Murfreesboro, TN
    Posts
    2,909
    Liked: 930

    Default Letter #37838

    I submitted my letter, though not in support. Here's mine:

    Good afternoon all,
    I was going to wait until I had more information but it seems there are many letters already sent so I thought I'd get mine in too.



    I don't think that any changes need to be made to the FF tire rules. I understand that as a class, it would be burdensome to try to allow specific tires for specific cars. This is untenable. One class can only have one tire rule, either open tire rule or spec tire. While I enjoy the Vintage tire on my Vintage FFs, I accept the challenge of the radial slick with my Swift and I'm hoping to run a few Majors this year after a lot of personal time away from the track.



    I want to really stress my appreciation for the volunteers in SCCA and I don't think it's fair to add to the Tech Volunteers list of checks.
    Garey Guzman
    FF #4 (Former Cal Club member, current Atlanta Region member)
    https://redroadracing.com/ (includes Zink and Citation Registry)
    https://www.thekentlives.com/ (includes information on the FF Kent engine, chassis and history)

  12. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    05.28.16
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    134
    Liked: 244

    Default Just summitted a new letter based off feedback

    I summitted letter #37802 two days ago.

    Upon further review, it was pointed out that most who run bias ply tires use front part number

    20.5X 7.0-13 R60A FC H43164R60A


    We confirmed with Bruce Foss at Hoosier that this is an acceptable tire for FF even though their catalog notes it as an FC front. And he confirmed that most do run this tire. Therefore the line calling out the R60 bias ply fronts should read:

    Dries: Front - Hoosier H43130R60A 20.0 x 6.0-13/ Hoosier H43164R60A 20.5 x 7.0 – 13 bias ply slick

    Sorry about the this update and thanks for your help
    Thanks,

    Tony Stefanelli

  13. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    01.30.11
    Location
    Kelseyville, CA
    Posts
    28
    Liked: 13

    Default Don't further sub-divide FF class

    Allowing a different tire for the older cars further sub-divides the FF class. I oppose it. It seems this provides the older cars with a significant advantage. I don't oppose allowing the bias ply tires in the class, but it needs to be allowed for all cars; old and new.

    I believe the bias ply tire is 1-2 seconds a lap faster. I have a little experience switching from radial to bias ply on back-to-back days of a weekend. Four to six cycle radials on Saturday, new bias ply on Sunday. Made "best guess" setup changes on the ground in the paddock. Immediately saw two second lap time improvement. I feel our cars work better with the rear/front width ratio of the bias ply tires, as opposed to the radials. And the (rotational!) weight difference is significant. Straight line acceleration improvement may have been the most noticeable difference that weekend I switched.

  14. The following 3 users liked this post:


  15. #9
    Senior Member cliff's Avatar
    Join Date
    01.31.02
    Location
    kansas city, MO
    Posts
    378
    Liked: 97

    Default

    To be clear, these bias ply tires can only be run on rocker arm cars and typical club ford cars. Modern cars with push rod suspension must run the radials. That detail is in the letter but it doesn't jump out at you necessarily. New cars won't be allowed the bias ply tires.

  16. The following members LIKED this post:


  17. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    05.28.16
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    134
    Liked: 244

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by denny_renfrow View Post
    Allowing a different tire for the older cars further sub-divides the FF class. I oppose it. It seems this provides the older cars with a significant advantage. I don't oppose allowing the bias ply tires in the class, but it needs to be allowed for all cars; old and new.

    I believe the bias ply tire is 1-2 seconds a lap faster. I have a little experience switching from radial to bias ply on back-to-back days of a weekend. Four to six cycle radials on Saturday, new bias ply on Sunday. Made "best guess" setup changes on the ground in the paddock. Immediately saw two second lap time improvement. I feel our cars work better with the rear/front width ratio of the bias ply tires, as opposed to the radials. And the (rotational!) weight difference is significant. Straight line acceleration improvement may have been the most noticeable difference that weekend I switched.

    Too bad you missed the meeting. You didn't see how or why we purposely chose to divide the class a bit by technology era - like the UK, Australia, etc does. The vast majority in the meeting saw and supported this point of view. But if you come to a race, and podium in your era, you'll get something special for your efforts. In your case, I'd guess that your know deep down that a '70's Tiga can't match the pace of your DL7.

    Anyway, your certainly entitled to your opinion, thanks for sharing.
    Thanks,

    Tony Stefanelli

  18. #11
    Senior Member sauce_racer's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.24.06
    Location
    DFW
    Posts
    258
    Liked: 120

    Default

    Denny I share the same opinion as you.
    I logged off the meeting early and missed the ending where this was what the majority decided on. But I agree that further sub-dividing our class by suspension and year of manufacture doesn't actually fix our current lack of participation. At this point I'm not sure that my opinion on it really even matters. Which is okay considering I'm pregnant and can't race again until Labor Day if I'm lucky.

    At the end of the day a level of decorum must be kept in order to keep this class going and increasing participation. I say this because we need each other to get through this challenge our class is currently facing. So the snide or insulting comments have a negative effect on our overall goal of getting us all on track and happy in our cars. Whether they be sent out via private messenger or on social media that behavior is a waste of time and doesn't make anyone want to come play with us. (Not calling out anyone on this thread, but in response to a PM I personally received being told 'I need professional help if I can't be happy with the radial tire')
    I realize I may be in the minority with my opinion but I refuse to not participate respectfully in coming to a solution that benefits the majority of the class and keeps it going.

    Meg Sauce-Grenier
    SowDiv FF#10

  19. The following 3 users liked this post:


  20. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    05.28.16
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    134
    Liked: 244

    Default Reworked ZOOM presentation in hopes of telling story

    Team,

    This is keeping me awake at night trying to figure out how to explain what the group decided on without writing a novel no one would want to take the time to read, and I don't want to take the time to write. So, I reworked the presentation we worked through and rewrote during the meeting to include more of the meeting notes I took - but in a more visual form. It'll take some amount of imagination, empathy, and clear thinking to understand.

    If you want to be talked through it, PM me and we'll get on a phone call.

    One of the punch lines: Everyone thinks the Formula Ford Festival in the UK is cool. So let's make it happen in your neighborhood.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Thanks,

    Tony Stefanelli

  21. The following 5 users liked this post:


  22. #13
    Senior Member thewarehouse's Avatar
    Join Date
    06.28.06
    Location
    Riverside, Illinois
    Posts
    185
    Liked: 4

    Default Letter Submitted

    I've submitted my letter in support of the 2025 tire rule change.

    Thank you Tony for the huge effort you are putting forth.
    Jp: thewarehouse "at" msn.com
    www.myinfinitystore.com
    90 Reynard FF

  23. The following members LIKED this post:


  24. #14
    Classifieds Super License Messenger Racing's Avatar
    Join Date
    08.25.03
    Location
    Muleshoe, Texas USA
    Posts
    1,076
    Liked: 211

    Default Support

    I support this change - not because it is important to me (I have three modern Honda VD on radials in my shop today) but it is very important to an overwhelming majority of the people who have reached out to me as well as those who were on our meetings. I can speak for the folks I am closest to in the group and none of them undertook this process due to unhappiness with the current tire - only in an effort to be more inclusive and to change the basic dynamic of FF in the US from one of many splintered groups to one umbrella group inviting as many as possible to band together around our common love for these fun cars.

    In the Formula F USA PDF above you will see the concept of a Formula F USA Festival - what a dream it would be!
    RaceDog
    Messenger Racing
    Muleshoe, Texas USA

  25. The following 3 users liked this post:


  26. #15
    Member
    Join Date
    05.14.14
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    13
    Liked: 0

    Default 37802

    I support the rule change found in letter 37802. Thanks

    Bob

  27. #16
    Member
    Join Date
    08.11.16
    Location
    Gobles, MI
    Posts
    22
    Liked: 2

    Default Support

    I totally agree with Jay, I support this because of the importance to others. We run a Swift DB1 and have no problems getting the camber needed to run the radials and have been happy with the radial tire. We need to do something to get cars on the track period. The tire issue seems to be the biggest roadblock.

  28. The following members LIKED this post:


  29. #17
    Senior Member cliff's Avatar
    Join Date
    01.31.02
    Location
    kansas city, MO
    Posts
    378
    Liked: 97

    Default

    i support the change. In talks with folks not racing, the number 1 issue was the tire. This proposal was brought about to be more inclusive to those cars. Respectfully, i don't see it being divisive to the group, on the contrary, i see it getting more cars to the grid.

  30. The following 5 users liked this post:


  31. #18
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    01.30.25
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    1
    Liked: 6

    Default Support

    As an active participant in FF I support the proposed change. I have been watching this form for months and seen plenty of discussions about trying to increase participation, and the tire rule has come up again and again. This proposed solution allows the cars that are unable to run the radials to get out on track, but doesn't introduce a "tire war" between the two options for those running in the front of the class.

    If we completely open the tire rule to everyone, I am concerned that it goes from buying a set of new tires every few events to having to have a specific tire because it's simply faster on certain tracks. Or weather conditions favoring one set of tires and having to keep sets of both compounds in the trailer.

    Having two different tires might add a tiny amount of work for tech, but it's as simple as checking the tire, and then if it is a bias ply, ensuring that the car does in fact have rocker suspension.

    No solution is going to make every single person happy, but this was the option that the majority who took the time and effort to collaborate came up with and agreed upon. Whoever is unhappy with the recommended rule is more than encouraged to attend the weekly zoom meetings to discuss additional efforts and rule changes.

    Tazio Stefanelli

  32. The following 6 users liked this post:


  33. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    05.30.07
    Location
    Arlington, Texas
    Posts
    858
    Liked: 105

    Default FF Proposed new tire rules

    I have but one question. Does anyone have confirmation from any of the rocker car community or the club ford community or the Vintage FF community that they will come race in SCCA at Majors race weekends if this rule proposal goes through? Just wondering what the up side is.

  34. The following members LIKED this post:


  35. #20
    Contributing Member stonebridge20's Avatar
    Join Date
    01.13.06
    Location
    Danbury, CT.
    Posts
    3,818
    Liked: 2133

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by M.Sauce View Post
    I have but one question. Does anyone have confirmation from any of the rocker car community or the club ford community or the Vintage FF community that they will come race in SCCA at Majors race weekends if this rule proposal goes through? Just wondering what the up side is.
    If this rule proposal is accepted by SCCA, could it even be implemented this year or would it only be able to go into effect in 2026?
    Stonebridge Sports & Classics ltd
    15 Great Pasture Rd Danbury, CT. 06810 (203) 744-1120
    www.cryosciencetechnologies.com
    Cryogenic Processing · REM-ISF Processing · Race Prep & Driver Development

  36. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    08.01.01
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    1,380
    Liked: 465

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by stonebridge20 View Post
    If this rule proposal is accepted by SCCA, could it even be implemented this year or would it only be able to go into effect in 2026?
    That's up to the CRB/BoD. I wouldn't even begin to speculate on how this will be handled by them.
    Peter Olivola
    (polivola@gmail.com)

  37. The following members LIKED this post:


  38. #22
    Member
    Join Date
    06.09.16
    Location
    Albuquerque, NM
    Posts
    33
    Liked: 22

    Default Input from a non-SCCA racer with a CFF

    Quote Originally Posted by M.Sauce View Post
    I have but one question. Does anyone have confirmation from any of the rocker car community or the club ford community or the Vintage FF community that they will come race in SCCA at Majors race weekends if this rule proposal goes through? Just wondering what the up side is.
    I'm not ready to commit to a Majors race weekend with my CFF yet but the idea that I might not have to buy a set of tires and develop a compatible setup to do it has me at least looking at the schedule to see if there's one I'd like to attend. There are other factors to consider in the decision of course but the current tire rule makes running an SCCA Majors event completely out of the question.

  39. The following 4 users liked this post:


  40. #23
    Contributing Member DanW's Avatar
    Join Date
    03.22.03
    Location
    Benicia, Calif
    Posts
    3,210
    Liked: 1031

    Default

    If I'm allowed to run Hoosier R60 slicks for a Majors event, I would definitely enter in my region or travel to a nearby region.

    Letter #37883Sent

    Gents, Thank you.

    Dan Wise
    “Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty.” -Peter Egan

  41. The following 2 users liked this post:


  42. #24
    Member
    Join Date
    05.30.20
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    14
    Liked: 63

    Default Support

    I don't think this rule change would have any affect on the current racing, so I am all for it. If we can get a few extra cars out to support the FF class, that can only be seen as a positive and help our standing within SCCA.

    My biggest initial reservations were that some of those cars could be competitive or faster (namely the DB1s), but after talking it over with the various parties and the testing they have done, I don't believe that would be the case, and I think there would be great parity between the two tires. It wouldn't change or affect who's at the front of the grid, and it won't change how the FF's race and why we love driving them.

    I think its okay to be apprehensive or scared because its different and you don't yet know the whole story, but I believe everyone has the best intentions of improving our numbers and fun, not trying to find advantages. If this is what will pull out a couple of the CFF guys to race with us at the bigger weekends, then why not be for it? Numbers clearly puts us at a better bargaining with the SCCA and forces them to keep inviting our class to the big races many of us aspire to win, so lets do what we can before its too late.
    Theodore Burns
    Kellymoss Inc
    2011 Piper DF05 - Honda

  43. The following 3 users liked this post:


  44. #25
    Senior Member John LaRue's Avatar
    Join Date
    03.29.01
    Location
    Muncie, Indiana
    Posts
    2,044
    Liked: 1152

    Default

    If by chance the DB-1's are faster on the bias tire I would take that as a positive step for the class given the number of those cars in existence.

  45. The following 3 users liked this post:


Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  




About Us
Since 2000, ApexSpeed.com has been the go-to place for amateur road racing enthusiasts, bringing together a friendly community of racers, fans, and industry professionals. We're all about creating a space where people can connect, share knowledge, and exchange parts and vehicles, with a focus on specific race cars, classes, series, and events. Our community includes all major purpose-built road racing classes, like the Sports Car Club of America (SCCA) and various pro series across North America and beyond. At ApexSpeed, we're passionate about amateur motorsports and are dedicated to helping our community have fun and grow while creating lasting memories on and off the track.
Social