1969 RCA resurrection

[CharlesVsWorld]

Hello everyone - long time lurker making the transition to active poster having finally found a project after years of looking. It's a 1969 RCA FV that I aim to restore to it's former-or-better, period correct historic glory. I live in San Francisco and I'd love to drive this classic at Sonoma and Laguna Seca to name just a few.


I purchased the car late last year not far from the manufacturer in Azusa CA. I have been periodically trawling FB and this site in search of a historic vee that can fit a large person - I'm 6'3" and 210lbs before dinner. When I saw it come up I jumped on it the blower, hired a UHaul and UHauled my arse down to socal after an encouraging chat with the seller who was extremely helpful. Here it is as I picked it up:



No real identifying features on the car that I've found yet, looking for a chassis build plate to figure more out about it's history. But most of the body panels are present and need some minor repair work. The engine and gearbox are complete and there were some spares and accessories.

Once I got it home to my tiny garage/workshop setup I was able to un-beech it from the jetski trailer situation it came on and see how the bodywork fit. Not too bad at all...



Did some fettling to the engine cover to make it sit low/correct on the roll bar. The seller has assured me he has the original snorkel piece and will send it up to me so let's see what happens there. I started tearing it all down and got the engine and trans out pretty easily. In the process I found: all kinds of strange imperial fasteners, mismatching gaskets, lost sockets and nuts, a half-installed remote oil filter, JB-welded fuel fillers amongst other surprises. Nothing too crazy given that the car has obviously not seen a racetrack for quite a while.

So I would love to hear if anyone recognizes this car or knows how to find out about it? It has some faded event stickers on the roll hoop that I can try and decipher and I also imagine the SCCA would be able to provide a history with some identifying information.

Which brings me to the engine.

It does not have anything stamped in the normal VW type one ID locations on the dizzy or oil filler castings, just this plate on the sump that to me read as a 1600cc engine? The openings in the case measure close to the 90.5mm spec which perhaps disagrees with that? I'm new to the VW type 1 game so any tips appreciated. The connecting rods and camshaft IDs read as stock type 1 items.



The pistons feature a small indent (maybe from a valve) and had a few broken oil control rings so I'm glad I started the disassembly. An initial compression test yielded a max of 80psi wet and min of 46psi so definitely some wear and tear on the engine as it sits.



The heads feature a RON CHUCK stamp so perhaps this was actually raced with this engine at some point? There is also signs of some repairs to the cooling fins both on the heads and barrels.



So I'll close this first post before it becomes a ramble but wanted to say hi and watch-this-space for project updates and of course dumb questions from yours truly. Thanks for reading.

[brian styczynski]

Yep, Ron Chuck stamps means you are starting with a FV engine. Good luck

[BLS]

Yep, Ron Chuck stamps means you are starting with a FV engine. Good luck

Also appears the flywheel has been turned to lighten it to the minimum weight...

I *think* the AS41 Brazilian case is a universal that works for 1200-1600 engines.

Interesting project, good luck with it!

[CharlesVsWorld]

Thank you both for the replies, always good to hear some corroboration for the story I was told!

Adding to the anaemic information I already possess about the car - what do people make of this?



To me, it looks like a scrutineering artifact from a CSRG meet in 2006. I wonder if the records could be recovered to ID the car? I have sent some emails into the void to find out...

[DanW]

Contact this gent, Dietmar.

He should be able to help you fill in the gaps.

https://www.quixoteracing.com/

There is also local support with Ron Chuck Engineering in Redwood City.

650-367-7(four)98

There is a small but mighty group of FV guys in the Bay Area. I will PM you some info

[BLS]

"Contact this gent, Dietmar."

X 1000

[CharlesVsWorld]

Something about these FV people, so damn helpful! Thanks for all the suggestions here and in DMs, I've chatted to Blake and went to visit Ron's shop so knowledge and understanding about the car have progressed considerably. I still haven't hit the holy grail of a chassis number or SCCA number despite searching all over the left side of the roll bar.

Here is a summary of the research I've done over the past week:

* Ron Chuck build the heads and most probably the motor
* Among the many carbs I have, the SOLEX PICT 28 has been modified correctly for racing by Cornish Enterprises, just needs a rebuild
* The pistons and cylinders are good to go, it had dykes rings that do not seal until the engine is running so no point to a compression test
* The cam is probably an Elgin grind and also good to go

So all the parts are good and the thing just needs a good clean up and go-through. I've also started drawing the car up so I can check the fit on any new parts I'm adding like fuel cell and pedals. I have all the measurements for the chassis done thus far:

[SteveG]

... I still haven't hit the holy grail of a chassis number or SCCA number despite searching all over the left side of the roll bar.

Check the right side of the roll bar too because that's typically where the tech folks used to stamp it. The tell tale is typically a 3/16" hole in the bar where the thickness is checked.

Steve

[DanW]

Something about these FV people, so damn helpful!

They are all enablers or co-dependent.....

If it had never been raced in SCCA after 1971, it likely would not have had a stamp on the roll bar, a hole drilled in the roll bar, nor given a log book. It doesn't have any of the expected chassis/suspension mods other than a 'Z' bar that dated from the late '60s through the '70s and '80s.

When I was a wee lad back in the Pleistocene Age, I would ride my bike to Azusa to watch the go-karts running around the track at Bug Mfg., the original go kart factory. Almost driectly across the street was "Race Car Associates" with a bright yellow FV in the front window. Of course I left with the brochure in my pocket. My old man just shook his head in disbelief that I was his kid....

I will PM you contact info for Gary Hortskorta. He is the region historian for both SCCA and CSRG.

[Mark_Silverberg]

I will PM you contact info for Gary Hortskorta. He is the region historian for both SCCA and CSRG.[/QUOTE]


I would definitely start with Gary to try to find information on this car.

The only person I knew in the san francisco area who was running vintage formula vee at that time was Richard Ryan. He passed away well over ten years ago. He did have two vintage FV and I think his second car may have been a blue RCA. the car he drove mostly was red as I recall. This was a long time ago and my memory is not what it once was. He was a taller individual so it fits with the roll bar height.

[Steve Davis]

...
* Among the many carbs I have, the SOLEX PICT 28 has been modified correctly for racing by Cornish Enterprises, just needs a rebuild
...

I suspect that the carb you have is more likely to be a 28PCI - the most commonly used FV carb. The PICT does NOT have a removable venturi and cannot be modified for max performance. The PCI has a 'removable' venturi and, though it cannot be removed and 'left removed' (MUST in there), it can be freely modified - mostly 'thinned' to create a larger than 28mm diameter. If Ron built that engine, it almost HAD to have a 28PCI to go with it.

If Ron saw a PICT, I'm sure he would have mentioned it and the reasons for it. Of course, your car is pretty old, but I doubt many would have run a PICT even in those days. The PICT was from a later model bug.
Steve, FV80

[CharlesVsWorld]

Almost driectly across the street was "Race Car Associates" with a bright yellow FV in the front window. Of course I left with the brochure in my pocket.

I love this story and thanks again for the contact, I'll get in touch.

I heard from Blake that RCA could also stand for a designer/builder's initials (ala TVR) possibly Rich or Rick Allen? Or maybe both could be true...

[CharlesVsWorld]

I suspect that the carb you have is more likely to be a 28PCI

Steve you are dead right, I got the model wrong. It's a PCI, thanks for the steer.

[CharlesVsWorld]

Bit more progress on the frame measurements. Took the bladder out of the fuel cell, it's a Fuel Safe custom job so emailing them for a replacement.

[Mark Bee]

Bit more progress on the frame measurements. Took the bladder out of the fuel cell, it's a Fuel Safe custom job so emailing them for

Great progress! I’m following closely and considering taking the leap. What’s your plan when finished?

[Bruce]

Is located just down the peninsula is Redwood City. (650)367-7498. You might want to open https://norcalfv.proboards.com/ for open wheel racing in the west.

[CharlesVsWorld]

Is located just down the peninsula is Redwood City. (650)367-7498. You might want to open https://norcalfv.proboards.com/ for open wheel racing in the west.

Thanks for the links, will definitely keep an eye on that forum!

Have visited Ron, what a legend, very helpful.

[CharlesVsWorld]

What’s your plan when finished?

Pretty much any vintage racing event I can make it to! Sonoma and Laguna Seca are high on the bucket list.

[CharlesVsWorld]

Alright, bit of a quiet week with work getting in the way but I did hear back from CSRG that the sticker is from 2006.

Finished the chassis modeling and happy to figure out fitment of a stock ATL fuel cell FC152 to replace the custom FUELSAFE one that can no longer be manufactured.

[CharlesVsWorld]

Welly well well, a long time between drinks but I have progress for you all.

But before that, a word of advice. Stay off the damn electric scooters especially on the way home from the pub. A few months of healing from a broken face, wrist and other fun injuries has taught me this much.

I'm now able to work on the car again and I resumed by cleaning up the engine and accessories for re-assembly.




Virtually I have also fitted a drivetrain and this smooth-skinned fella who is going to help me design a seat.

[Matt Clark]

Looks like a fun project. The RCA cars are so pretty, especially compared to some of the other Vintage FVs.

One bit of advice... don't worry about the fancy CAD work for a seat. Once the car is done, sit in it & pour foam. Done.

[CharlesVsWorld]

One bit of advice... don't worry about the fancy CAD work for a seat. Once the car is done, sit in it & pour foam. Done.

Oh that's good advice, should save some time. You wouldn't worry about basically sitting on the on the fuel cell? Or constraining the foam to have a tighter form? I wasn't thinking anything too fancy, just a sheet metal seat pan that provides that base and back support.

[Matt Clark]

Oh that's good advice, should save some time. You wouldn't worry about basically sitting on the on the fuel cell? Or constraining the foam to have a tighter form? I wasn't thinking anything too fancy, just a sheet metal seat pan that provides that base and back support.

Nah, most of us sit on the fuel cell enclosure, because we don't have much room to start with. That will surprise you once you finish the car & get in, especially at your height. The CAD model guy you have is not going to be able to drive the car like that.

Worst case, put a -thin- foam pad on the enclosure, tape a few pieces of cardboard to limit the poured foam on the chassis side rails, then lay the bag in & pour. You can do an aluminum pan for it if you really want... but the foam will wrap around the fuel cell & stay in place once hardened anyway. It'd just be extra work & weight.

I literally sit on the floor pan & the aluminum fuel cell, with a small poured foam piece to fill under my lower back, and my butt goes against a panel over the fire bottle. That is it, and it's rather comfy. If I do another one, I think I am gonna try a large lumbar Totim kit for simplicity.

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pr...duct=TTM-T3096

[BLS]

Nah, most of us sit on the fuel cell enclosure, because we don't have much room to start with. That will surprise you once you finish the car & get in, especially at your height. The CAD model guy you have is not going to be able to drive the car like that.

Worst case, put a -thin- foam pad on the enclosure, tape a few pieces of cardboard to limit the poured foam on the chassis side rails, then lay the bag in & pour. You can do an aluminum pan for it if you really want... but the foam will wrap around the fuel cell & stay in place once hardened anyway. It'd just be extra work & weight.

I literally sit on the floor pan & the aluminum fuel cell, with a small poured foam piece to fill under my lower back, and my butt goes against a panel over the fire bottle. That is it, and it's rather comfy. If I do another one, I think I am gonna try a large lumbar Totim kit for simplicity.

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pr...duct=TTM-T3096

Matt, had never seen that one. Looks very interesting especially considering it can be done by yourself...
Thanks,
Barry

[Steve Davis]

I agree.. that's a new kit - I haven't seen it either before now. However, I'm pretty sure that polyurethane is going to create a ROCK HARD seat 'surround', itsn't it? It will have NO 'give' - possibly not tolerable in a true OW car. The video also shows it being installed into a 'prebuilt seat' already in the car. Certainly before you try this, be sure to watch a LOT of videos of the many other alternatives made specifically for OW cars - with bars and stuff all around you.

I might also add that your drawing of your mannequin in the car shows an OBVIOUSLY 'too tall' situation with regards to top of helmet and bottom of roll bar clearances. For an openwheel car, you are required to have AT LEAST 2" of clearance between the top of your helmet (generally about 2" above the top of your head) and the bottom of the roll bar.. *AND* you have to pass the 'broomstick test' where a 'straight edge' from the top of your main roll bar to the top of the bodywork in front of the steering wheel must not 'touch' any part of your body or helmet when you are belted into the car in race trim.

Strongly suggest that you sit in some other cars (not necessarily just Vees) before make any serious mods to the car you just bought. At your height, you'll likely need every 1/4" you can scrape up, THAT's why we don't build 'seats' into the cars any more (like they did when your car was originally built). We use that space to create a seriously padded, but stout, 'seating arrangement' - not 'just a seat'. We also pay MUCH more attention to the racing harness mounts due to HANS type requirements that have a huge impact on just how you FIT into the car .. as well as 'get into' and 'get out of' it. There are MANY threads on this forum discussing those issues in depth.

Good luck getting it all going. It's likely that the original owner is no longer 'available', but the CSRG records would probably show the driver name (and probably location) from an entry as recent as 2006. The pics look like it's going to make a nice car when you get it finished.

Last suggestion... you seem to be working towards resurrecting the engine yourself. If you can possibly afford it, take it back to Ron Chuck.. if he's still doing rebuilding. If he's not, then take it to Dietmar (down near San Diego - QuixoteRacing.com). Building a successful FV engine is not for the 'faint of heart' unless you have some serious skills at building RACING engines .. not just street engines. By sending your engine to an experienced Vee engine builder, you can save yourself a LOT Of time WATCHING instead of RACING.

Steve, FV80

[BLS]

"I'm pretty sure that polyurethane is going to create a ROCK HARD seat 'surround', itsn't it?"

It's actually made from EA urethane which is polyurethane. The EA stands for Energy Absorbing. It is the best material for seating and in the seating formula has some give, not to hard.

I was going to use the link below as it was the best method IMO, but the "Totim" looks to be the same thing just ready to mix inside the bag, so no mess possibility and the cover is already made...

https://www.rollbarpadding.com/product/id-23

[BLS]

6'3 and 210#

OK, I missed that tidbit. At 6'4 and about 210 I'm qualified to mention that it is going to probably be a very tight squeeze to make the car both safe and drivable. Before you get too far along make sure how you fit in the car. The weight is likely not your big problem, the height is a big problem. Some adjustments may be required. They may not be easy, but they can be done on most cars without complete re-engineering.

[CharlesVsWorld]

Ok! Some really good points and tips raised here, appreciate the comments.

Going to take the advice, super minimal seat and let the foam do the work. What do you think of these measurements -- got just over 2" to the top of the roll hoop.




Re the motor - I had Ron Chuck look it over and he basically advised just cleaning it up and putting it all back together again. I've not split the cases so it should be relatively straight forward. I plan to run and service this car myself for a long time so I have to Iearn the tricks somehow!

Got the gearbox power washed, barrels painted, and flywheel soda blasted, gonna put the pistons back in tomorrow.

[Hardingfv32]

You are too big for this car!

Is a front roll hoop required where you plan to race.

What is the plan for a front roll hoop for your test pipe/tube to actual have something to touch?

Brian

[Matt Clark]

Going to take the advice, super minimal seat and let the foam do the work. What do you think of these measurements -- got just over 2" to the top of the roll hoop.

I hate to say it, but you may be in trouble trying to legally fit.
The rule says "A straightline drawn from the top of the main hoop to the top of the front hoop shall pass over the driver’s helmet.", not a horizontal line forward. The intent is to keep you from breaking your neck when upside down... picture the car resting on rollbars without you touching.

[Steve Davis]

"...What do you think of these measurements -- got just over 2" to the top of the roll hoop."
Not enough. The measurement should be 2" below the BOTTOM of the main roll bar.
Also.. you are not allowed to have your steering wheel and HANDS above the to of the cockpit opening. You'll have to 'get down' in the car more.
AND.. the broomstick test is from the top of the roll bar to the top of the FRONT roll hoop.. or at least the top of the cockpit opening just behind the steering wheel.
1 option would be to raise the body work between the cockpit and the front beam.
Steve

[jrh3]

"...What do you think of these measurements -- got just over 2" to the top of the roll hoop."
Not enough. The measurement should be 2" below the BOTTOM of the main roll bar.
Also.. you are not allowed to have your steering wheel and HANDS above the to of the cockpit opening. You'll have to 'get down' in the car more.
AND.. the broomstick test is from the top of the roll bar to the top of the FRONT roll hoop.. or at least the top of the cockpit opening just behind the steering wheel.
1 option would be to raise the body work between the cockpit and the front beam.
Steve

“How much ground clearance do you have? Some of the older cars had a lot. Maybe a repositioned floor pan under the butt. Reposition the steering wheel and new hoop as well as pedals more forward.

[Hardingfv32]

General Question:

Do SCCA roll bar rules apply to vintage?

Brian

[BLS]

As others have pointed out, that is not a good fit and doesn't meet the current SCCA rules. Those rules have been developed to protect the driver.

I had the same problem and as my first step I did the following:

1) welded a CM floorpan to the bottom of the chassis with a curvature of 7/8 inch (max rules is 1")
2) moved my butt as far forward to the bottom bulkhead as possible and created a foam crush piece under the front of posterior as a safety crush zone. This has the effect of pushing my knee's higher but there was room (barely)
2) Moved the rear firewall from the front side of the roll hoop to the rear to allow a bit more lean back which requires a fuel cell that doesn't push you forward (a Citation FV style fuel cell)
3) Cut the small rollbar support from between the rollbar and fabricated a new one that sits back two inches allowing my head to stay with the slant of my body. The firewall is broken and bending back to that support (which bolts on to facilitate removal)
4) placed the pedal assembly as clos to the front as possible. The limit here is the front beam and the brake pedal as there needs to be a bit of "safety space" from the pedal to the beam to compensate for brake wear or other slight malfunction.

Those items, lowering my butt by the 7/8 inch and sitting on the floor, moving back just a bit with the firewall movement, and pedals got me to a safe position IMO. It did not make me comfortable in the car which is round two that I'm finishing now.

Tall and FV is not a very good mix but it can be done.

You need to determine what you are going to do with the car. Perhaps vintage rules (I have no idea) do not require a roll hoop at the steering wheel bulkhead. Current SCCA rules do and that should not be difficult to add. The "broomstick" then goes from the rollbar to that roll hoop. Your knees can come up for legroom possibly depending on framework.

EDIT to add: Looked back through the thread to see that your plan is for vintage racing which would fit that car. I'd check with them on the rules, particularly with respect to adding a front roll hoop. I assume it is not required as I seem to recall seeing pictures of vintage cars with original chassis design. But you definitely wish to provide the safety required regarding space above your head.

[Steve Davis]

"...What do you think of these measurements -- got just over 2" to the top of the roll hoop."
Not enough. The measurement should be 2" below the BOTTOM of the main roll bar.
Also.. you are not allowed to have your steering wheel and HANDS above the to of the cockpit opening. You'll have to 'get down' in the car more.
AND.. the broomstick test is from the top of the roll bar to the top of the FRONT roll hoop.. or at least the top of the cockpit opening just behind the steering wheel.
1 option would be to raise the body work between the cockpit and the front beam.
Steve

OK .. I have been 'enlightened' - Thanks, Brian. (took me about TWENTY MINUTES to FIND that number in the GCR - seems like that measurement should have been easier to find).
The helmet to roll bar clearance REQUIRED is in fact 2" from the top of the roll hoop to the top of the helmet. I have always used 2" from the BOTTOM, since I don't want my helmet to HIT that roll bar. If the roll bar is 1.5" in dia, then the top of my helmet at mins WOULD most likely hit the bar in almost every 'bump' I might encounter - even in the pits. I wouldn't like that. If you are THAT close, you should probably put some sort of 'bump' material on the bottom of the bar.
Anyway - the rule is a MINIMUM, not a 'recommended' distance.

An earlier question asked about a front roll hoop also raises the question for Vintage cars that I don't know the answer to.. Do you have to MODIFY a Vintage car to INSTALL a front roll hoop? Seems like a vee MIGHT be able to get by without it because of the shock towers.. however, those towers have only a minimal resistance to 'side loads' and fold down easily if they encounter such loads.
The 'broomstick test' is also not mentioned in the GCR. The applicable location and description of that test is on Page 87 in the latest (March) GCR along with the roll bar clearance. That test ONLY references the Front ROLL HOOP.. so not sure what happens if you don't HAVE one. ?

Steve

[brian styczynski]

General Question:

Do SCCA roll bar rules apply to vintage?

Brian

Yes, kind of. Most clubs go by the helmet to roll bar guidelines in the current GCR. They generally refer back to the GCR for current best practices with safety issues. SVRA calls for a slightly thicker roll hoop wall. Most regional clubs don't have their own GCR, just lists of what cars/modifications get put into which run groups, along with general safety requirements like fire bottle, belt, and safety equipment dates.

If I was a tech person at local vintage club, I would say that car would need a front hoop, above the wheel and hands to start with. Then you would need to check the broomstick test again and may still need a taller main hoop. We have replaced the main hoops in our 3 Lynx Bs over the last few years to give an additional 2 inches. All 3 drivers are 6 feet tall. While we were barely passing before, we were able to add proper seat (molded foam) which raises us an inch.

[brian styczynski]

Keep in mind, a bead seat requires a minimum 1 inch thickness which will only raise the driver further up. With a foam pour, you can either work around your butt and still sit on aluminum, or make a thinner that 1 inch bottom. Same with along your back, you can just fill the voids of the spinal curves, or you can make a full cushion that will also raise helmet height. In my opinion, it is best to start with roll hoops that give you plenty of room to work with in seat construction. There have been many back injuries in FV that could have been avoided with better seats (bead seat vs. Door mat over fuel cell)

I have been working on a FV seat and back safety video for several years, I think I need to finally finish it.

[pacratt]

Looking at this chassis, I would say that also cutting off the main roll hoop and support braces...replacing with taller...would be a VERY GOOD part of the process and fairly simple for a skilled fabricator.
Remember the top braces should begin no more than 6" below the top of the roll hoop (I recommend 3"-4") and should go forward between 30° and 45° angle...I would try to maintain the same lower attachment point as the current one since it transfers load straight down into a vertical support member.
Whatever you decide, DO NOT add an "extension hoop" to the top of the main roll hoop!!! These are very dangerous and can fold or snap off under the right circumstances.
Glenn

[Ed Womer]

Keep in mind, if you ever get upside down and can't get out ON YOUR OWN, you would definitely re consider your wanting to just meet the rule. If you managed to plant yourself upside down in soft ground or a sand trap, I guarantee you are not getting out until someone helps roll over the car.

It is you hide!

Ed

[CharlesVsWorld]

I'm loving all the constructive suggestions here - also got Slim and the CSRG to weigh in via email RE adding a front roll hoop:

"It has been done on many vintage and modern FV’s. The lower floor pan gcr rule/limit is one inch. In adding the front roll hoop, if It could be relocated further back allowing higher knees and sliding down in the car"

So, coming up with a 3 point plan of action for operation "5-pound turd in a 3-pound bag":

1. Chop the old roll hoop off and fabricate a new, taller main roll hoop with better bracing
2. Add a front roll hoop over the steering wheel
3. Optionally lower the floor pan under the driver 1"

Will post some drawings once I've consumed the SCCA safety docs and GCR.

Thanks again!