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  1. #121
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    Yeah but turn that around the other way: why can't we learn from NASA? Go take a look around their website. It's much more user friendly. Same with their schedule, both for the year and for each event.

    Personally I like SCCA class rules much better because it allows room to tinker and avoids grey areas better, but I can still see why their simple p/w ratio rules are popular...

    And none of this regional vs national nonsense...

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  3. #122
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    NASA really does do a bang up job with their website. The SCCA should absolutely be copying their answers, if you will, in that realm.

    Another thing I had a stellar experience with was getting a minor, common sense rulebook change. It was literally simple as emailing the national TT director a whopping two emails then the rulebook being updated in a matter of a few days. No drawn out discussions/debates, no drama, etc. Literally just an email chain four messages long. It honestly felt too easy.

    There certainly are some lessons to be learned from other organizations. However, I it seems like they often fall on deaf ears simply because "We've always done it this way, and we're not changing!" Truly a shame.

    Something else I feel is noteworthy as a young person that's around other young people who are in racing or interested in racing. The SCCA has such a bad image amongst Millennials. The vast majority of them just see the SCCA as a retirement community ran by a good ol' boys club with convoluted rulebook the size of an encyclopedia that requires a law degree to understand. It's extremely off putting to a lot of folks, to say the least. To be frank, if I wasn't racing open wheel stuff I wouldn't touch the SCCA with a 10 foot pole.

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  5. #123
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    Default SCCA B*tch Session

    This thread seems like a SCCA complaint session.

    SCCA compelling and differentiating feature are the Run Offs, where who is best in the country is decided. They need to focus on getting that right. To build the importance of the Run Offs, they need to be consistent in their messaging.

    SCCA can start by having the Run Offs at the same location for 10 years.

    Locate the race more centrally, so that one area of the country is not over-represented and another area of the country under-represented. Why not COTA?

    Hold Run Off class structure for 5 years.

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  7. #124
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    Something else I feel is noteworthy as a young person that's around other young people who are in racing or interested in racing. The SCCA has such a bad image amongst Millennials. The vast majority of them just see the SCCA as a retirement community ran by a good ol' boys club with convoluted rulebook the size of an encyclopedia that requires a law degree to understand. It's extremely off putting to a lot of folks, to say the least. To be frank, if I wasn't racing open wheel stuff I wouldn't touch the SCCA with a 10 foot pole.


    Where on earth would they get that idea??!!?

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  9. #125
    Contributing Member John Nesbitt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pragmatist View Post
    ... The SCCA has such a bad image amongst Millennials. The vast majority of them just see the SCCA as a retirement community r...


    Where on earth would they get that idea??!!?
    Well, SCCA does stand for Superannuated Codgers Club of America.
    John Nesbitt
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  11. #126
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    Will Millennials every stop whining. No one can make them happy, do not expect SCCA come up with anything.

    Brian

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  13. #127
    Contributing Member John Nesbitt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardingfv32 View Post
    Will Millennials every stop whining. No one can make them happy, do not expect SCCA come up with anything.

    Brian
    Well, SCCA Road Racing does skew very heavily older, white, and male. There is no denying it; just look around the paddock.

    I contrast this with what I saw at an FRP event I entered at Summit Point. FRP was subletting from a motorcycle event. The composition of the paddock was utterly different, whether you measured by age, race, or gender.

    And, whining about millennials every time somebody points out this simple fact just underlines the perception problem (and I write 'perception', not 'reality') that Road Racing faces.
    John Nesbitt
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  15. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pragmatist View Post
    The SCCA has such a bad image amongst Millennials. The vast majority of them just see the SCCA as a retirement community ran by a good ol' boys club with convoluted rulebook the size of an encyclopedia that requires a law degree to understand. It's extremely off putting to a lot of folks, to say the least. To be frank, if I wasn't racing open wheel stuff I wouldn't touch the SCCA with a 10 foot pole.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hardingfv32 View Post
    Will Millennials every stop whining. No one can make them happy, do not expect SCCA come up with anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by John Nesbitt View Post
    Well, SCCA Road Racing does skew very heavily older, white, and male. There is no denying it; just look around the paddock.

    I contrast this with what I saw at an FRP event I entered at Summit Point. FRP was subletting from a motorcycle event. The composition of the paddock was utterly different, whether you measured by age, race, or gender.

    And, whining about millennials every time somebody points out this simple fact just underlines the perception problem (and I write 'perception', not 'reality') that Road Racing faces.
    So the perception of millennials can be changed. One of the problems is they do 'want it now'. I've been to more than 1 local autocross where you do your own inspection and if you look at some of the millennial race cars they are death traps.

    The SCCA and the old guys are full of "can't" and they don't like it. The TDOs and autocrosses just want payers - so self inspection is good in their book.

    But - they can be "saved" or at least steered toward understanding how to do things correctly.

    What SCCA is doing is asking for our help to specifically address these issues.

    Reach out to the millennials. When I go to car shows I end up talking tech with the young people rather than the old days with the old people. They have a 'Fast and Furious' mindset (ugh) but they are also trying to do things - not much different than racers in the 50s and 60s.

    I plan to take my FC to a couple car shows where I know the younger crowd will be and see if that peaks their interest.

    Again, this thread is about improving car counts (and membership).
    If we can advise the SCCA on what works I think they will follow through.
    But we can't sit back and wait either.

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  17. #129
    Senior Member Jim Nash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardingfv32 View Post
    Will Millennials every stop whining. No one can make them happy, do not expect SCCA come up with anything.

    Brian
    Will Boomers ever stop whining about millennials whining? It seems Boomers aren't happy with the club either. Hence this thread.

    Jim


  18. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Nash View Post
    Will Boomers ever stop whining about millennials whining? It seems Boomers aren't happy with the club either. Hence this thread.

    Jim
    Gen X is where it's at Bro.
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  20. #131
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    Hate to be the bearer of bad news but millenials aren't the young people anymore. We've got kids and our first grey hairs. I don't usually race SCCA simply because all the FC racers drive with ICSCC where I live and ICSCC clubs host more events at the tracks within a day's tow from me, no other reasons. I have no negative feelings about the SCCA and it has nothing to do with the website, rules, rain lights, or any of that. Unfortunately I just don't have the budget to travel the country to do the majors tour and the runoffs and even if I did I don't have the time at this point in my life.

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  22. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by stonebridge20 View Post
    Gen X is where it's at Bro.
    Two observations:

    1. Most of the young'uns I run into working the SFR old folks races are Gen Z.

    2. A quote I heard from local track management person "No one wants to come out and race with their great grandparents at SCCA"

    Steve

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  24. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry H View Post
    ........

    Locate the race more centrally, so that one area of the country is not over-represented and another area of the country under-represented. Why not COTA?

    Hold Run Off class structure for 5 years.
    According to the map shown on the webinar and the demographics - the SCCA right now is an East coast club - or at least west of the Mississippi. VIR is too east for many - Road America, Mid Ohio and Indy will be the front runners unless a track like Barber or Road Atlanta wants to get in on the action (I know people are pushing for Pittsburg - I think it needs more pro racing to get a reputation...)

    The SCCA "owns" 2 tracks in California - but look at the numbers:
    https://www.crbscca.com/public/parti...p?theYear=2023
    https://www.crbscca.com/staffAdmin/p...p?theYear=2023

    Most of the Western half had Majors with less than 100 entries. COTA and Thunderhill were the exceptions...

    It may be just as simple as travel - many places in the EAST have 4 tracks within a 6 hour drive. Out West a 6 hour drive might be the closest single track..... You have to lead with your strength while building up the rest. Maybe we are big enough to have a "West Coast Championship" at COTA and once that gets over 400, then consider it for a National Championship - a true Runoffs - East vs West.

    ChrisZ

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  26. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by stonebridge20 View Post
    Gen X is where it's at Bro.
    All this Gen talk makes me realize I haven’t a clue what Gen I am.
    Once we think we’ve mastered something, it’s over
    https://ericwunrow.photoshelter.com/index

  27. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by E1pix View Post
    All this Gen talk makes me realize I haven’t a clue what Gen I am.
    If you were born before 1965, you're a boomer.
    “Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty.” -Peter Egan

  28. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by FVRacer21 View Post
    According to the map shown on the webinar and the demographics - the SCCA right now is an East coast club - or at least west of the Mississippi. VIR is too east for many - Road America, Mid Ohio and Indy will be the front runners unless a track like Barber or Road Atlanta wants to get in on the action (I know people are pushing for Pittsburg - I think it needs more pro racing to get a reputation...)

    The SCCA "owns" 2 tracks in California - but look at the numbers:
    https://www.crbscca.com/public/parti...p?theYear=2023
    https://www.crbscca.com/staffAdmin/p...p?theYear=2023

    Most of the Western half had Majors with less than 100 entries. COTA and Thunderhill were the exceptions...

    It may be just as simple as travel - many places in the EAST have 4 tracks within a 6 hour drive. Out West a 6 hour drive might be the closest single track..... You have to lead with your strength while building up the rest. Maybe we are big enough to have a "West Coast Championship" at COTA and once that gets over 400, then consider it for a National Championship - a true Runoffs - East vs West.

    ChrisZ
    ButtonWillow and ThunderHill are not owned by the SCCA. They are owned partially by CalClub and SFR and investors.

    Both tracks are sold out - mostly to profitable non-scca events.

    If you look at ButtonWillow February for 2023, its an anomaly. That is the SuperTour event that was basically flooded out.
    They had big signups as usual, but many packed up and went home when the track and pits were underwater from an overnight storm.

    I like the idea, but I think we need 3 championships to make it easier to get there.
    COTA is NOT out west it's 2 time zones away from California. A 2 day drive from SoCal and 3 days from NorCal.

    But if could be a good spot for the national championship.

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  30. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveG View Post
    Two observations:

    2. A quote I heard from local track management person "No one wants to come out and race with their great grandparents at SCCA"

    Steve
    Especially, when they are whipped by a great grandparent.

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  32. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing View Post
    COTA is NOT out west it's 2 time zones away from California. A 2 day drive from SoCal and 3 days from NorCal.
    A HARD two day drive from SoCal pulling, especially given the terrain and truck traffic.

    Even when people come from the east coast to visit, they usually just hit LA, Phx, or Vegas. Just the usual big cities. Leave Vegas to go to LA and the first thing you hit is a 38 mile long grade. The scale of the west is just not understandable to folks that live in closely packed places with high humidity where the horizon is a couple of miles away.

    LA to COTA is 1200 miles, twice as far as Charlotte to Rd America. Miami to RA is about the same.

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  34. #139
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  36. #140
    Contributing Member John Nesbitt's Avatar
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    Very true. Folks in the East sometimes do not appreciate just how much West there is, especially the vast spaces of the plains and Southwest.

    I worked an event at Miller once (great facility; flat, boring track(s)). Among the folks I spoke with (drivers and volunteers), the shortest distance that anyone had travelled had been from Las Vegas (~6 hours). People from Texas, Oregon, California, Arizona etc. One chap told me that he put 80-100K miles per year on his truck. Just an awful lot of miles between the Mississippi and the Sierra Nevada, even at 80mph.
    Last edited by John Nesbitt; 07.13.24 at 5:14 PM.
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  38. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Nesbitt View Post
    Very true. Folks in the East sometimes do not appreciate just how much West there is, especially the vast spaces of the plains and Southwest.

    I worked an event Miller once (great facility; flat, boring track(s)). Among the folks I spoke with (drivers and volunteers), the shortest distance that anyone had travelled had been from Las Vegas. People from Texas, Oregon, California, Arizona etc. One chap told me that he put 80-100K miles per year on his truck. Just an awful lot of miles between the Mississippi and the Sierra Nevada, even at 80mph.
    This is why my letter to the CRB included the suggestion of at least 3 runoffs across the country which then let to a smaller, shorter, but more prestigious national championship.

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  40. #142
    Contributing Member Rick Kirchner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Nesbitt View Post
    I worked an event Miller once (great facility; flat, boring track(s)). Among the folks I spoke with (drivers and volunteers), the shortest distance that anyone had travelled had been from Las Vegas. People from Texas, Oregon, California, Arizona etc. One chap told me that he put 80-100K miles per year on his truck.
    I live about 2.5 hr north of LAX. In the heyday of my career I bounced around between Northern Nevada, Vegas, and San Diego a lot. Ontario or LAX to fly out. I probably put 20K mi/yr on government trucks and rental cars. Wife's commute was short by CA standards, 25mi each way that took less than 25 minutes, but we still put about 30K mi/yr on her vehicle. The nearest mall was 90 miles away.

    Miller is about 10 hr by car, more like 14 in an RV towing (650 mi)

  41. #143
    Senior Member 924RACR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry H View Post
    Especially, when they are whipped by a great grandparent.
    I believe P.J. O'Rourke put it best when he said, "Old age and treachery always beat youth, enthusiasm, and a bad haircut."

    Damn, I used to be the one with the bad haircut... 25 years later, I have to stick with treachery...
    Vaughan Scott
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  43. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Kirchner View Post
    LA to COTA is 1200 miles, twice as far as Charlotte to Rd America.
    Not exactly. My house in Charlotte to Road America is 904 miles.

  44. #145
    Contributing Member Rick Kirchner's Avatar
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    I just did a quickie google maps measure distance, not a road trip measurement.

  45. #146
    Contributing Member iamuwere's Avatar
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    If NASA seems friendly, you should try a WRL event. It is amazing how much simpler and better things can be outside of the SCCA structure. SCCA events seem to try to make things as complicated and cumbersome as possible.

  46. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by John LaRue View Post
    Again Vaughn, I truly appreciate the time you are putting into thinking about these issues. Regards, John

    I actually don't think there are plenty of FA cars out there. I think the class is suffering because competitive cars are very hard to purchase.

    There is a massive disparity in performance among cars in the class. There are VERY few Swift 016s. I think fewer than 60 were ever built. Some portion of those cars are likely out of commission and some are just track day cars. Even adding in the 08s and 014s, the Swift car counts are too low across the country to ensure decent car counts in majors races.

    There are of course other cars like PFMs. But they aren't very competitive. A bunch on the market and plenty being used as track-day cars. The price difference illustrates the lack of competitiveness. ($35k for a non-paddle PFM vs $150k for a swift 016).

    I think to solve the car count problem, you need to either (1) reduce the performance of the swifts or (2) incentivize a manufacturer to produce in sufficient quantities cars that are competitive with the Swifts. I'd happily buy one if I could.

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