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  1. #1
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    Default Lola Super Vee Chassis Identification

    So I think this is a Lola Super Vee Chassis. I purchased the chassis on Saturday and other parts which I believed came with the car. Initially for parts for the CSR car I am building.


    Lola front and rear uprights

    Suspension components front and rear

    4 Koni coil over shocks


    4 boxes of Hewland gears etc

    A set of wheels ( six pin that can be used with the correct hub )


    I have a Hewland mk8 Gearbox for a formula super vee already and there are brake calipers and lots of other items.

    Unfortunately, no body or chassis plate. I still need to look at the roll bar for SCCA number. But it seems I may be half way to a car. I think it would be close in time period to the Lola t200 FF, but I can not find a Lola super vee with thie same uper suspension on the Lola Heritage Site. Any Ideas?

    I think I did well, even for the parts alone. I do not want to ID the family who may have owned the car until I am sure as to the car’s Identity.

    Regards
    Paul
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    Contributing Member Garey Guzman's Avatar
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    The first Lola FSVs were space frame and designed by John Bernard, according to the Lola Heritage website:
    http://www.lolaheritage.co.uk/type_n...t250/t250.html

    Both the T250 and T252 were space frame, the T320 was the start of FSV monocoque chassis in 1973

    Not sure what model used a 6 drive-pin centerlock wheel.
    Last edited by Garey Guzman; 11.29.23 at 12:35 AM.
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  4. #3
    Contributing Member Rick Kirchner's Avatar
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    although FF parts are often close to the corresponding FSV, the use of VW spindles and hub centers vs British parts makes the wishbones and the like just different enough to be unusale.

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    Garey kind of said what I was about to.

    The T200 was a 1970 FF car, and the T250 the first Lola S/V built in ‘71, so easy to conceive that could use 1970 FF parts… unless it used parts from the T202 FF also sold in 1971.

    That was little new news, I realize. Good Luck.
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    That's a weird shifter setup on that box--not your standard "monkey motion" unit for air cooled FSV
    also, output flanges should be 6 bolt, to use VW cv joints

    I think the frame was from something else....those bars cut out of the engine bay could have been motor mounts, and no evidence of a front mount for VW.

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    Default Zink Z10

    The chassis looks like a Zink Z-11. I think that was the air cooled VW counterpart to the Z10

    Appears like parts from a few cars. One box has Lola suspension components and the other has Zink lower rear Aarms.
    Last edited by LJennings; 11.29.23 at 6:42 PM.

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  10. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by LJennings View Post
    The chassis looks like a Zink Z-11. I think that was the air cooled VW counterpart to the Z10

    Appears like parts from a few cars. One box has Lola suspension components and the other has Zink lower rear Aarms.
    Agree, the trans looks like it was air-cooled SV by the shifter setup but side covers and strive flanges look wrong. For sure VW looking rotors and the pin drive wheels would from something later. If only parts could talk...

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    Contributing Member Rick Kirchner's Avatar
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    I'm thinking those flanges are for donuts. There appears to be a VW front hub/axle in there somewhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Schmidt View Post
    That's a weird shifter setup on that box--not your standard "monkey motion" unit for air cooled FSV
    also, output flanges should be 6 bolt, to use VW cv joints

    I think the frame was from something else....those bars cut out of the engine bay could have been motor mounts, and no evidence of a front mount for VW.
    The Hewland is not from this purchase.It came with some McNamera uprights and U joint axle shafts. The monkey plate has a bracket to bring the shifter mechanism down ward. It is weird!

    I have a pair of 6 bolt output flanges. The evidence is no mounting points for the Hewland on the upper cross member, it could be a Renault, but with the clean cut out on the sides and the VW based Lola uorights I would think Super Vee. I believe the engines attached via the back plate. Again I am definitely not an expert! Did any other Super Vee’s use Lola components?

    Regards
    Paul

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobmic View Post
    Agree, the trans looks like it was air-cooled SV by the shifter setup but side covers and strive flanges look wrong. For sure VW looking rotors and the pin drive wheels would from something later. If only parts could talk...
    Here are my previous purchase pictures of the McNamera suspension components and a rear view of the Hewland.


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  14. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by LJennings View Post
    The chassis looks like a Zink Z-11. I think that was the air cooled VW counterpart to the Z10

    Appears like parts from a few cars. One box has Lola suspension components and the other has Zink lower rear Aarms.

    Will check into the Zink. Here is a picture of the front of the chassis. Everything is still in the truck and the truck is garaged at the farm. I do know the chassis is about 24 inches wide and about 8.5 feet long and 6.5 feet from the back rest to the front of the chassis.


    Thanks for all your help. I will get after those chassis stamps on the roll bar.
    Regards
    Paul
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    Contributing Member DanW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobmic View Post
    Agree, the trans looks like it was air-cooled SV by the shifter setup but side covers and strive flanges look wrong. For sure VW looking rotors and the pin drive wheels would from something later. If only parts could talk...
    The FSV rules in '73 required the use of as many VW parts as possible, usually VW type 3. Front uprights spindles rotors, varga calipers, rear stub shafts, hubs and drums. Much like FV 10 years earlier, using prod car parts kept the cost reasonable and parts supplies plentiful.

    The photos of the front of the chassis do appear to be a Zink Z10 or Z11 for its rocker arm front suspension. The rear uprights for the Z10 and Z11 were fabricated steel parts using VW type 3 bearings and bearing retainers. The Z11 was a quick and competitive car in the day.
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  17. #13
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    Paging Mr. Lathrop…….

    He’ll know if Zink is involved.
    Once we think we’ve mastered something, it’s over
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  19. #14
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    Default Zink Z11 FSV

    That chassis is definitely a Z11 Zink air cooled Super Vee. The Lola FSV chassis were aluminum monocoque construction. The F1600 chassis was a tube frame and a equivalent structure to the aluminum tub for the FSV.

    I only see a pair of rear lower a-arms that are Zink parts.

    The rear uprights and drive shafts are not FSV parts.

    The shift setup on the rear of the transmission is modified for something but I think you can restore that to work with an air cooled engine.

    More than likely that chassis came through my shop when it was new.

    There were not very many Z11 ever built. I can think of 2 customers that might have owned that chassis when it was a race ready car.
    Last edited by S Lathrop; 11.30.23 at 10:50 AM.

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  21. #15
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    Gigliotti?

    Wonder about Bagley’s, meaning I’d sure hope that car survived… and I think Bruce Macinnes ran a black one with the same Zink color scheme like on Tim Evans’ Ford, and your blue Z10 that Smiley leased at the ‘75 Runoffs (I have a cockpit shot of him in that car).

    Edit: I’d add our friend Gary Passon, but think his was a water-cooled if not a Z14.
    Last edited by E1pix; 11.30.23 at 12:55 PM.
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  23. #16
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    Thank you all!
    This is from the auction web site. It was the only body item that I thought was in the 861 lot auction. It is damaged and was in a lot of other car hardware (mostly US muscle car stuff and some Mazda parts). So I did not get it. I let 4 wheels go that were damaged that looked like formula ford rims and some disc brake rotors that were very rusty. I got everything else that I thought could go with the Lola uprights and the chassis as I was interested in the uprights and thought I might be chasing a Lola FSV.



    If this is a Zink 11 would it have enough historical value to restore it to original or are the bits important for other cars and this car is destined to service those cars? I will try to lay out everything this afternoon. Work is keeping me away from my Hobbies, but it pays the bills .

    Paul
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    Last edited by APBos; 11.30.23 at 10:46 PM.

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    The uprights are not Zink parts. But the internal parts are the same as used on the Zink Z10/Z11. The VW parts were common to most of all the FSV of this vintage.

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    I got a minute at lunch to take the frame out of the truck. Found some surface rust and what looks like a thin respray of the grey paint over the chassis. I could not find an SCCA stamp on the roll bar! Is there a consistent place it is put so I can remove the paint in that area?



    I also found no rivet holes in the chassis. I assume the bottom would be riveted to the chassis? If it was, then the frame was obviously undergoing some type of restoration as the holes have been sealed! I should remove some paint in this area to confirm that. Did Zink ever stamp the chassis or was a plaque used?

    What engine was run on the cars. I understand it was a tuned down 1600. What should I be looking for (serial numbers, heads etc) in an engine and engine parts?

    I understand there was a Z10 restoration spreadsheet available at one time. Does anyone have some information as to where I should be looking for manuals or resources other than bugging Mr. Lathrop every day?

    Regards
    Paul
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    Default Zinc SV

    The basic engine is a 1600 VW from a ( say 70-73) fastback or square back, dual port heads and a pair of 2 barrel downdraft Webers or Solex. Then, lots of racer engine prep to get it to 150++ horsepower. Now the aircooled SV guys can jump in and tell you more about these engines.

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  28. #20
    Contributing Member DanW's Avatar
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    Roll bar number should be on the vertical part of the roll bar, on driver's right. There should also be a 3/16" diameter hole on that part of the roll bar so the tech inspector could determine the wall thickness of the roll bar. Number should be stamped near the hole. Try sanding/scraping off some paint above and below the hole. Number should be something like 55-138 or similar. First number is the region, second number is the sequential number assigned to the car and documented in the log book and region records.
    “Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty.” -Peter Egan

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  30. #21
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    no rivet holes for the pan? Could this be a replacement frame? filled holes would be obvious once you scrape off some paint.

    If it's a 72 or later it probably was meant for a Type IV - which were 1600s initially (via a small bore kit, because the original engines were 1600 TYIIIs, and you know, because SCCA). VW never made a production 1600cc type IV. The best heads were off the 1800. Late 2L heads from busses and such are junk.

    After the transition to water cooled, the 1600 TY IV kits dried up, and so 1700cc was allowed, but they were grenades given all that had to be done to them because - the SCCA required you to start with stock parts (the 1600cc kits were high compression).

    Now most vintage bodies will allow you to run a 2L, which is a 1700 with a 5mm offset crank grind. And nobody cares what you run for internals, so go ahead and order up some custom high-domed pistons.

    Hardest parts to source for one of these is a decent oil pump.

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  32. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Kirchner View Post
    no rivet holes for the pan? Could this be a replacement frame? filled holes would be obvious once you scrape off some paint.

    If it's a 72 or later it probably was meant for a Type IV - which were 1600s initially (via a small bore kit, because the original engines were 1600 TYIIIs, and you know, because SCCA). VW never made a production 1600cc type IV. The best heads were off the 1800. Late 2L heads from busses and such are junk.

    After the transition to water cooled, the 1600 TY IV kits dried up, and so 1700cc was allowed, but they were grenades given all that had to be done to them because - the SCCA required you to start with stock parts (the 1600cc kits were high compression).

    Now most vintage bodies will allow you to run a 2L, which is a 1700 with a 5mm offset crank grind. And nobody cares what you run for internals, so go ahead and order up some custom high-domed pistons.

    Hardest parts to source for one of these is a decent oil pump.

    I removed the paint from a small area of the chassis rail and found welds in the old rivet holes. So not a replacement chassis. I could not find a SCCA stamp or hole. Will need to use some paint stripper to carefully find it. I did find this metal piece in a box.


    Does anyone recognize this piece from a z10 or z11? Is this from the left fore corner of the driver’s compartment?
    I was also got some inventory pictures and will put together an item list.
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    There are a pair of Z10/Z11 lower rear a-arms.

    What air the widths of the rims on the wheels you have? That will give you a clue to what cars they would have been used on. As I remember, the air cooled FSVs used 6' wide fronts and 8" rears.

    The brake rotors and spindles were the ones used on the Air cooled FSV but I don't think I see the uprights that went with those rotor/spindles. All the air cooled super vees used the same VW parts.

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    up through '72 at least the rims were 6" all the way around.

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    Aren't those wheels drilled for six drive pins?

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    Quote Originally Posted by J Leonard View Post
    Aren't those wheels drilled for six drive pins?
    Yes. I am quite sure they re not from the chassis. But I could not be sure when I bought the bits. There was a set of wheels that were trashed. That could have been from the car. I passed on that lot.
    Paul

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    So I will throw out what is probably an easter egg.
    Here is the Tom Bagley car at Mosport in 1976.i could make an argument that those the same 6 pin rims. The Gigliotti car at the same event has 4 lug wheels…..
    I understand the Gigliotti car I understand is in Australia. The Bagley car appears to be in Florida. That leaves one z11 missing. The Harry Ingle car?
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    Last edited by APBos; 12.03.23 at 10:38 PM.

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  39. #28
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    There were 2 Tom Bagley Z11. He severely damaged the Harry Ingle car at Mosport and we build a new car for Watkins Glen the following week. Which as I remember, he won.

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  41. #29
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    "I was also got some inventory pictures and will put together an item list."
    Well, I recognize the green bins but am not too sure of the blue wheelbarrow. The rest of the stuff is up to you.
    M

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    Quote Originally Posted by S Lathrop View Post
    There were 2 Tom Bagley Z11. He severely damaged the Harry Ingle car at Mosport and we build a new car for Watkins Glen the following week. Which as I remember, he won.
    1975.

    He did win it, by a foot over our departed friend Eddie Miller in the closest Super Vee finish ever.
    (0.002 sec. if memory serves)

    And poor Harry Ingle, a great guy who really had a chance — until a big crash in a McLaren M22 F5000 car stopped it all.
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  44. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by S Lathrop View Post
    There were 2 Tom Bagley Z11. He severely damaged the Harry Ingle car at Mosport and we build a new car for Watkins Glen the following week. Which as I remember, he won.

    Mr Lathrop
    I finally found some pictures of a z11. Everything on the chassis seems to match with the exception of the roll bar above the gauge clusters and the brackets seems to have been strengthened on the Australian car. I realize we are talking about a race nearly 50 years ago, but what kind of damage did the car receive?

    Could this be the damaged chassis?

    What body panels can you supply?
    What suspension items (uprights/ spindles ) etc are available?

    I think everything else in the parts bin is Lola FSV and the former owner was thinking about building a bits car. There are lots of small items that could have come off any race car. The sale sold a Mazda Rotary engine and he did race SCCA Pro Toyota in the day.


    Do the colors of the piece which I believe came from the chassis give you any clue as to its origin? The green reminds me of the color of my Mustang I drove in 70s
    Regards
    Paul
    Last edited by APBos; 12.04.23 at 11:13 PM.

  45. #32
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    Hi Paul,
    This car is on my Registry, which I had started to try to retain as much Zink (and Citation) car info as possible. The current owner is in FL, also named Paul!
    https://redroadracing.com/zinkregistry.php

    Quote Originally Posted by APBos View Post
    So I will throe out what is probably an easter egg.
    Here is the Tom Bagley car at Mosport in 1976.i could make an argument that those the same 6 pin rims. The Gigliotti car at the same event has 4 lug wheels…..
    I understand the Gigliotti car I understand is in Australia. The Bagley car appears to be in Florida. That leaves one z11 missing the Harry Ingle car?
    Garey Guzman
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    https://www.thekentlives.com/ (includes information on the FF Kent engine, chassis and history)

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    Awesome to see both that the Bagley car is properly restored, AND the tremendous progress on your Registry!

    Kudos to both you and your son, Garey!


    The Gigliotti car ran decals over most of 1976 that said “Eric’s Race Reports & Autocomp” which was a magazine I created at 15. Lou was a nice guy, and the car owner was, too — named Barry Budlong — who also owned the B Sedan Datsun 510 that Lou raced through 1975. I think he got a 4th in the ‘75 Runoffs, and going from memory was behind David Frellsen, Marv Thompson, and… Hmmm… Bob Leitzinger, maybe, or Fitzy.

    Perhaps meaningless is that the 510 was dark green and maybe, just maybe the color of the above body piece. I was also at the opening S/V round of ‘76, in Pocono, traveling with Gary Passon who ran a T324 that year. Bertil Roos won the race in his classic “Slideways” style, per his trademark, but I have no recollection of Lou’s #2 red/yellow/black Z11 at Pocono — at least not in that scheme as run at both of the Road America S/V rounds, and at the Glen with the GP, using the same Lathrop color scheme that many FF cars and some Super Vees ran in that period.

    I mentioned earlier that I thought Bruce Macinnes ran a black Z11 in a few races, but thinking more now that car may have been dark green/pale yellow/red in the Lathrop scheme, and could well explain the dark green from the Gigliotti 510 being carried to a Z11 before it became red.
    Last edited by E1pix; 12.04.23 at 12:29 AM. Reason: Can’t stop bleeding memories
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