2023 Runoffs

[Teuobk]

My suspicion is that the low entry for the '23 Runoffs in FA was at least in part due to the location. VIR's great, but it's a looong way from half the country and not really a "bucket list" track. I think we'll see a rebound next year when the '24 Runoffs are at Elkhart.

Also might be useful to note that in terms of average-entries-per-event, FA was still in the upper half of all classes in 2023. These classes has lower average entries than FA (which had an average of 3.5 entries per event):

• STU (3.4)
• FC (3.2)
• T2 (3.1)
• T1 (2.8)
• GT1 (2.7)
• P1 (2.4)
• AS (2.3)
• GTL (2.2)
• P2 (2.1)
• FX (2.1)
• F600 (1.9)
• GT3 (1.8)
• GTX (1.3)

Formula classes with higher average participation than FA were FF (4.3), FV (5.4), and FE2 (5.7).

Regarding F1000s specifically, almost all of the Colorado F1000s were temporarily down for various reasons after the June Sprints (but are being repaired!).

Jeff

[problemchild]

I am not a "bucket list" guy but VIR would certainly be on par with any other track in my bucket. Awesome facility, although like Road America, too many long straights, IMO, to determine the best driver for a National Championship. Bring back Mid-Ohio!

If you look at a population density map of the USA, there would be little difference between VIR and Road America. Without a specific study, I expect VIR would be closer for more Americans. Your location bias would be no different than VIR to someone living in Miami.

In this case, SCCA are gambling on hurricanes instead of snow.

[Lotus7]

I wouldn't tie that move to Vicky.
You can put that one on CART.
They needed a bigger car to feed their series since the IRL took the lights cars.

I believe another driving factor for the 'bloated' 016 was the desire to run them with CART on ovals without killing the driver every time one crashed... ?

[Steve Demeter]

I am not a "bucket list" guy but VIR would certainly be on par with any other track in my bucket. Awesome facility, although like Road America, too many long straights, IMO, to determine the best driver for a National Championship. Bring back Mid-Ohio!

If you look at a population density map of the USA, there would be little difference between VIR and Road America. Without a specific study, I expect VIR would be closer for more Americans. Your location bias would be no different than VIR to someone living in Miami.

In this case, SCCA are gambling on hurricanes instead of snow.

BRING Back MID OHIO

[rockbeau25]

Please no. The paddock is way too small for the Runoffs and the entire facility is in total disrepair.

A more deserving track that’s only a few hours away is Pittrace. I would love to see the Runoffs there after Road America.

[david oleary]

What about INDY again (almost 1000 entries)

[Lotus7]

Please no. The paddock is way too small for the Runoffs and the entire facility is in total disrepair.

A more deserving track that’s only a few hours away is Pittrace. I would love to see the Runoffs there after Road America.

I "liked" your post, love the track and the area, but question whether there are sufficient hotels and restaurants to support the runoffs?

[E1pix]

Road Atlanta’s my vote, spent about 80 days there from age 12 to 25 and really miss it.

Then Mid-Ohio, wouldn’t Barber also work?

[problemchild]

I "liked" your post, love the track and the area, but question whether there are sufficient hotels and restaurants to support the runoffs?

Every "drivers" driver I know loves the Mid-Ohio track. I get more requests to do one-offs at M-O than any other track. While it is not my favorite, I recognize it as the ultimate test of a complete race team. Too many people were whining about paddocking on the grass, but that is a small price to pay to race at such an awesome race track. Better than Indy by 1000%!

PIRC would be a good alternative, but I don't think that track selection has much to do with poor FA entries at the Runoffs. I apologize for hi-jacking the thread but I could not let Teoubk's commentary stand unchallenged. I love both VIR and Road America!

[Teuobk]

If you look at a population density map of the USA, there would be little difference between VIR and Road America. Without a specific study, I expect VIR would be closer for more Americans. Your location bias would be no different than VIR to someone living in Miami.

While that's true of the overall population in the US, it's not for those currently campaigning in the FA class with the SCCA. The heart of FA activity, at least in the SCCA, has moved to the midwest. It's all but dead on the eastern seaboard.

For example only 33 out of the 126 total FA Majors entries in 2023 came in races held to the east of Indiana.

Or, to look at the underlying participant data, only about 20% of all FA Majors entries in 2023 came from people whose listed hometown was east of Indiana.

Granted, that's not definitive. But anecdotally, I personally knew many people who geared up their FA participation in 2021 because the Runoffs were at Indy. Also anecdotally, I personally know at least several in FA who will make a serious effort to attend the Runoffs in 2024 at Road America. Again, nothing against VIR, but it doesn't stir the soul like other tracks, and for those who are going to the Runoffs more for the experience rather than serious contention for a win -- i.e., those providing all-important participation and registration numbers -- the track matters.

It is admittedly a different can of worms to debate whether people "should" be going to the Runoffs if they don't expect to contend for the win, but if we want to disinvite the non-contenders, then that instantly eliminates the vast, vast majority of currently campaigned cars in FAs, which are overwhelmingly not Swifts or Ralts.

Jeff

[problemchild]

Again, nothing against VIR, but it doesn't stir the soul like other tracks, and for those who are going to the Runoffs more for the experience rather than serious contention for a win -- i.e., those providing all-important participation and registration numbers -- the track matters.

There you go again. It may not stir some souls, but ignorance should not steer Runoff policy, nor should the views of half a dozen racers in a class that had 3 entries.

VIR and Road America are very similar facilities. Some might give the edge to VIR because it is more technically challenging. I personally found it much harder to get up to speed at VIR (which I consider a positive attribute).

[John Nesbitt]

More flavor!

Less filling!

[LenFC11]

F1000 growing?? I think not. Never should have been a National class. Never had the numbers. Really should not have even been a regional class. They belonged in FS from the start.

SCCA model is not viable anymore. The Runoffs, many many years ago used to be a stepping stone into professional Motorsports for many classes. No longer the case. Hasn’t been for a loooooong time. This is when the SCCA model worked. The club is afraid of change but the racing world is constantly changing around it. Many new group/ series have been able to come into the market and do very well. No change is a decision that will kill the club.

True pro racing has its own feeder series. They don’t need, care or even know about SCCA racing.

Semi pro series like FRP, or regional series who cater to an individual group do well. 20+ car fields. Some CF/ FF groups with more!

Vintage racing racing like SVRA have 30+ FF grids. Plenty of FB cars at many races. Wings and things group has F1 cars, F5000 cars, Indy cars. Indy lights and other high dollars cars running regularly so it’s not $$.

SCCA program is vintage…. It’s broken… it needs a complete rethink to be viable in today’s market.

[rockbeau25]

…ignorance should not steer Runoff policy, nor should the views of half a dozen racers in a class that had 3 entries.

But there is no denying the VIR participation is low overall. There are only a handful of more entries for the Runoffs than there were at the June Sprints. I would not at all be surprised if next year’s June Sprints and maybe even Cat National entries exceed this year’s Runoffs entires. VIR is an amazing place, but evidently not a very popular one.

F1000 growing?? I think not. Never should have been a National class. Never had the numbers. Really should not have even been a regional class. They belonged in FS from the start.

This is a laughably bad take. It was the only class in the last decade with numerous new manufacturers, cheap and readily available engines, and low operating costs. Anecdotally, I’ve lost count of the number of people I’ve talked to that said they miss F1000.

[david oleary]

LECF11
Sorry but I have to disagree with your comments, F1000 was growing, and we had new designers and builders, we had STOHR, JDR, PHOENIX, FIRMAN, PIPER and more plus the older FC 's that were converted and also different engines, SUZUKI, YAMAHA, KAWASAKI. BWM and with the rules being stock motors the engines were available, and cost was lower than most other classes and speed where fast. Where should they be? Depends on the rules, now with the rules changes they are about 5-6 seconds off the OLDER FA's and 3-6 seconds faster than the FC with the old stock rules, so find a way to make them competitive in FA speed Wise with the FA and leave them there or restrict them and put them in FC. the class was ruined by crazy decision made with in the UPPER Management, but it is a great class and IMHO F1000 would help grow any class grow in numbers if SCCA make them competitive in some class.

Who is building NEW chassis in FC?????

[Spengo]

Who is building NEW chassis in FC?????

I don't want to take away from what was accomplished in F1000, however... Quicksilver is importing Rays and at least one exists in FC Zetec configuration now. It will be racing FRP and SCCA next year. The old Snetterton crew is still making new "Von Demon" frames. I'm sure Steve Lathrop would love to build someone a Citation but I don't know when the last time he got an order for a new FC was. Nothing like the days of yore but you can still buy a brand new FC. It's not quite so bleak as no new cars at all.

[david oleary]

i understand but how many are being sold? When F1000 first started there was a waiting list of new chassis for F1000 from the builders, but I also believe that there were many older cars Van Dieman, Citations and other FC's converted into F1000 and the builders were excited about them something new and deterrent, that also helped to get the older cars out if the shops and on tracks maybe the issue was the cost of fresh F2000 ford motor or the cost of the Zetec conversion I am not sure, but early on you could take a older FC car do some welding and sell the old gear boxes and motors and get enough money to install a FRESH STOCK GSXR 1000 and drive axle and be more competitive at a reasonable cost for maybe less than staying in FC.
Here is my point, i think ANY chassis builder will build you a FC or F1000 same price but that is only 1/2 of the cost, add a gear box, and spare gears, Zetec wiring and ecu, or a fresh F2000 motor and now what is the cost, now add the same chassis with a current stock GSXR 1000 or BMW or Kawaski and i think you get to go as fast at less money.

A current MC motor with gearbox and wiring and throttle bodies and wiring and ECU is about $10K
What is the cost of a up to dated gear box, gears, F2000 motor, Zetec and wiring and ECU,,?

[LenFC11]

This is a laughably bad take. It was the only class in the last decade with numerous new manufacturers, cheap and readily available engines, and low operating costs. Anecdotally, I’ve lost count of the number of people I’ve talked to that said they miss F1000.

Looks like you joined in 2018. I believe maybe just after the start of F1000???

I will admit I don’t follow F1000 much. But do seem to recall a few pro series folding within less than a season. Most races having 1-3 cars…. I believe the most cars at any given race was a runoffs race with 7 cars. And even that was a one time max. I could be wrong about all this but I don’t think far off. I also don’t see that as a growing class

I do remember, and there are threads here if anyone cares to look them up, that F1000 never had the numbers needed for a National class. Some back door SCCA politics allowed it to happen. F1000 never in its years of existence had the numbers to maintain a national class. These are facts. I’m sure someone with more knowledge can tell us what those numbers needed were. I don’t know but kinda think it was in the 4 car per event average. Never met. Hard to consider that a growing class….

[LenFC11]

LECF11
Sorry but I have to disagree with your comments, F1000 was growing, and we had new designers and builders, we had STOHR, JDR, PHOENIX, FIRMAN, PIPER and more plus the older FC 's that were converted and also different engines, SUZUKI, YAMAHA, KAWASAKI. BWM and with the rules being stock motors the engines were available, and cost was lower than most other classes and speed where fast. Where should they be? Depends on the rules, now with the rules changes they are about 5-6 seconds off the OLDER FA's and 3-6 seconds faster than the FC with the old stock rules, so find a way to make them competitive in FA speed Wise with the FA and leave them there or restrict them and put them in FC. the class was ruined by crazy decision made with in the UPPER Management, but it is a great class and IMHO F1000 would help grow any class grow in numbers if SCCA make them competitive in some class.

Who is building NEW chassis in FC?????

building one or two cars from each manufacturer hardly makes it a growing class. The race numbers show the true interest. F1000 never had the numbers to have nor maintain a National class

I remember talking to the Baytos brothers at an FRP event. They stated to have a viable series you needed something like a minimum of 300 cars to be built.

Looking at FF, FC. FA back in its day, SRF. FM etc. they are right

I’m going to guess no more than 20 F1000 cars have been built?? How far off am I??

[Mike B]

I believe the most cars at any given race was a runoffs race with 7 cars. And even that was a one time max. I could be wrong about all this but I don’t think far off. I also don’t see that as a growing class

There will be plenty of people coming along shortly to tell you just how wrong you are. The first F1000 race in 2007 had 13 cars. A few years later a Majors race at COTA had 21 cars.
Runoffs in 2010 (the first year it was eligible) had 10 cars
2011 had 10 cars
2012 had 15 cars
2013 had 23 cars
2014 had 16 cars
2015 had 20 cars
2016 had 10 cars (FC had 7 cars)
2017 had 18 cars (FC had 14)
2018 had 7 cars

All this information is easily found on the SCCA website but just posting wildly inaccurate "information" is a lot easier.

Looks like you joined in 2018. I believe maybe just after the start of F1000???

2007, but you were close. Only 11 years off.

I will admit I don’t follow F1000 much.

Probably should've just stopped there.

[Mike B]

I’m going to guess no more than 20 F1000 cars have been built?? How far off am I??

Very, but please keep posting so everyone can see.

Are you thinking of some other class?

[Peter Olivola]

There will be plenty of people coming along shortly to tell you just how wrong you are. The first F1000 race in 2007 had 13 cars. A few years later a Majors race at COTA had 21 cars.
Runoffs in 2010 (the first year it was eligible) had 10 cars
2011 had 10 cars
2012 had 15 cars
2013 had 23 cars
2014 had 16 cars
2015 had 20 cars
2016 had 10 cars (FC had 7 cars)
2017 had 18 cars (FC had 14)
2018 had 7 cars

All this information is easily found on the SCCA website but just posting wildly inaccurate "information" is a lot easier.

Mike,

Joe Griffin did a group picture of the F1000 entry at the 2009 June Sprints. How many were in that picture?

[Mike B]

Mike,

Joe Griffin did a group picture of the F1000 entry at the 2009 June Sprints. How many were in that picture?

Looks like 11 cars qualified: https://beta.speedhive.com/sessions/1192556#byclass

[Spengo]

F1000 was a fantastic idea, I thought they were the coolest cars on the grid at amateur races. Maybe the bike engine powered formula car could make a comeback if there was an engine homologated for use in FC.

[david oleary]

IMHO
As the class started to grow there was no place for them, they were fasted than FC so FC did not want them and slower than FA
so FA did not want them and also were cheaper to build and race. So one of the car builders decided that they were going to fight with SCCA for F1000 to have their class or they would go race Regionals because some divisions agreed to let them race in their own group, Well there were a lot of guys who did not want to do regionals and regionals do NOT count in SCCA Majors car count for the Runoffs, so that blew up and they had to race with FA,s at National's and Majors anyway, so the same people said we will go to the PRO FRP series they will give us our own group, well at that point it became more money and travel cost so they STILL did not have enough cars for their own class and now they still run with F2000 or FA in FRP. I really do not care if F1000 are in FC OR FA as long as they can be competitive in that class, so if SCCA wants to get car count up at the RUNOFFS make the rules so that these cars will be on the track again in either class. 0- FA's at the RUNOFFS is a disgrace to whoever is in charge of SCCA!!! IMHO

Alex Mayer 2- Time NATIONAL Champion in FB and FA and 3 times champion in FRP (same car) CAR PARKED
Jeremy Hill Track records in FC and FB (same car) CAR SOLD and now parked.
How many other cars are parked?? And how many new builders stop building cars?

[S Lathrop]

What if 750 cc bike engines, were used in place of the 1000 cc bike engines. Allow only the modifications that are necessary to get the engines to run in a car application. Would that make a good alternative power plant in FC.?

The big issue in FC tis hat no one is thinking about is all the engine packages for FC are long out of production and there is no factory support for any of the engines. Right now this is not an issue. But at some time, maintaining the engines will become a very expensive proposition.

Years ago, FC did have an alternative engine / chassis package. It was air cooled super vees.

The big attraction of the bike engine is the cost to produce new cars. Bike powered cars can cost 30% less or more that an automobile setup. Currently you can buy a complete bike for less than the engine or the bell housing and transmission for an auto powered car costs

Just a rant..

[Mike B]

What if 750 cc bike engines, were used in place of the 1000 cc bike engines. Allow only the modifications that are necessary to get the engines to run in a car application. Would that make a good alternative power plant in FC.?

Just a quick review of the big 4 bike manufacturers shows that only Suzuki currently makes a 750. When we were writing the rules for F1000 we tried to find the production numbers for each bike but as you can imagine, the manufacturers keep those numbers a secret. Observation shows that the 600cc is most popular and the 1000cc is a close second.

[david oleary]

Why reinvent the wheel??
The F1000 are out there parked, and the builders in the pass have all the information already, to build new chassis, just either restrict the F1000 stock engines or build engines, like P2 or write the rules to bring back the FA cars so they can compete against the 016. also. How many club racers are going to purchase MINI INDY 016 cars at the current price? i feel that a F1000 can complete in FA with a built motor but not against a 016 Mazda with crazy HP. Club racing with cars at $150k? not many so how to save FA?

[rockbeau25]

Looks like you joined in 2018. I believe maybe just after the start of F1000???

And what does that have to do with anything? Keyboard warrior 101 to discredit someone based on something that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I've been around the sport significantly longer than I've been on Apexspeed as I'm sure most people on here have. And evidently how long you've been on Apexspeed =/= knowledge of the sport considering your previous two posts are verifiably false in their entirety.

The big issue in FC tis hat no one is thinking about is all the engine packages for FC are long out of production and there is no factory support for any of the engines. Right now this is not an issue. But at some time, maintaining the engines will become a very expensive proposition.

The big attraction of the bike engine is the cost to produce new cars. Bike powered cars can cost 30% less or more that an automobile setup. Currently you can buy a complete bike for less than the engine or the bell housing and transmission for an auto powered car costs

Just a rant..

MZR is still the answer here. It checks all the boxes of what FC needs. It's still in production, it's already equalized with the current engines by FRP, it comes with Mazda's unrivaled club racing support, and the added bonus that some of the now FC-legal USF cars already have it. It's silly they don't just let the engine in since the rest of the USF car is a perfectly FC-legal Van Diemen/Elan. I certainly would like that option before 30 year old Zetec and 50 year old Pinto parts dry up for good.

That said, if I had somewhere to race my car with a 1000cc bike engine that wasn't FA, I'd start converting my car today.

[CheckeredFlag]

I know this is an FA thread, but why not start a class for the F1000 and the FMzR. The FMzR seems too slow for FA where it currently is, but is too fast for FC or FX. Would the FMzR and F1000--albeit different engines--be similar in performance?

[Rick Kirchner]

How many 016's are still running? I don't know how many were made, maybe 25? If there are considerably fewer 016's than RT4s, 5s, 40s, 41s, and DB4s, 008s, 014s, reynards, and the F1000 cars, why not disenfranchise a smaller number of participants by just de-certifying that chassis for FA?

016's will find more competition at an SVRA event anyway.

[tige00]

your all beating a dead horse, scca doesnt want it period their actions justify it. just go race somewere else why give them your money when your all pissed at them . scca is about money unfortunatly they want big classes more money they could care less about the measley 10 to 12 caf fields yhey love the tin toppers its obvious why play were they dont want you.

[LolaDriver]

So if the car counts are so low, where are all the cars for guys like me that are looking to buy? Admittedly I've been out of the loop for a while but it's very discouraging trying to get back into the game - between lack of options, or way overpriced options.

I checked FRP and SVRA results and there were 6 Swift 016's running but only 1 or 2 Swift 014's. To my knowledge there are no modern Atlantics (Swift 008, 014, or Ralt RT41) on the market.

Same is true for the more current F2000 / FC cars - there are more being run but currently only one available for sale (pinto car).

[Mike B]

why give them your money when your all pissed at them .... why play were they dont want you.

I often ask myself the same question. FRP is really the only option that has a high level of competition but it's a regional group and travel is just too expensive for me.
I moved to P2 because I love a bike engine class and the ability to develop and modify but it looks like CRB has screwed up that class, too.

Where do you suggest we go?

[cjahn]

I often ask myself the same question. FRP is really the only option that has a high level of competition but it's a regional group and travel is just too expensive for me.
I moved to P2 because I love a bike engine class and the ability to develop and modify but it looks like CRB has screwed up that class, too.

Where do you suggest we go?

I am thankful to the F1000 gang in Colorado AND for welcoming me. This region, workers, stewards AND competitors have been the best, most friendly group I have experienced since starting racing in 1994. Its been fun trying to keep up with the locals while I learn tracks after moving from Midwest! RMVR may accept the group here but in the meantime I try to run where the cars are. There are at least 5 or more out here (more coming!) and I am thankful for someone to play with! I tried to encourage FRP to come west as we have a pretty stout group of racers here! HPR although I hated it first visit because its tough is now a blast! Come out and play! If people have stale or mothballed f1000's contact me. I may buy it to get it out on the track. Smiles per dollar cant be compared to others!

Cj

[Mike B]

Can anybody that was at VIR explain why what appears to be Austin Hill's FA is driving down pit lane at the end of the STU race? He appears to be heading out for a hardship lap:
https://www.youtube.com/live/2FZqt65...foejlC&t=24504

[E1pix]

We are here — still, leaving in an hour — and wondered the same thing, and hoped to see it in anger.

Have not confirmed, but someone mentioned there’s a F3 race here this coming weekend.

[E1pix]

your all beating a dead horse, scca doesnt want it period their actions justify it. just go race somewere else why give them your money when your all pissed at them . scca is about money unfortunatly they want big classes more money they could care less about the measley 10 to 12 caf fields yhey love the tin toppers its obvious why play were they dont want you.

Some here were born and raised to do the Runoffs, despite endless frustrations from the Club.

At some point, if car counts continue down, somebody will show up and rebuild what’s wrong — and maybe, possibly, actually consume customer feedback such as here as the lifeblood of a new and better beast.

Regardless, when people are mad, telling them not to be just makes them madder. Venting can indeed make for change, and is good for the psyche regardless of your reading it or not.