New formula and prototype classes

[John Nesbitt]

If you two think that is laughable, then you are totally out of touch with junior open wheel racing and trying to do business in the real world. How many prospective OW racers have you talked to in the last year? Rather than laughing, perhaps you should try talking to any prep shop or junior OW shop who is trying to recruit drivers to race in FF, FC, FE, or FA. Introducing F4 has had a very adverse effect on the SCCA OW classes. Perhaps, you would listen to someone who earns their living in the business and brought 8 different drivers as 16 entries to 8 different SCCA club racing events in 2019.

Yes there had been a decline, but all that money and energy, could have totally turned around our exiting OW classes.

I am sure I am not the only one that noticed you ignored the financial numbers involved. If the total number is a million, or even half that ..... what could that investment (plus from their corporate partners) have done to turn around the decline of those 4 classes?

Open wheel entries started their fall over a decade ago. To suggest that, back in 2008, someone thinking of going open wheel held off because F3 would be available in 10 years' time is risible.

I suspect that the leading reasons for the drop in SCCA open wheel new participants and entries overall are:

1. Folks decided that classes like SM or SRF(3) offered more competition, greater comfort level and perceived safety (covered wheels), less effort, and less expense.

2. FRP and similar 'semi-pro' series siphoned off FF/FC/FA entries. You can track the decline of those classes, especially in the eastern half of SCCA, with the advent of FRP races. This is not a slam on FRP. Bob Wright and his team offer an excellent product and deserve their success. I take nothing away from them.

3. People ran the numbers and realized that they could not afford the time and money compared to the other commitments in their life.

F3/F4 ranks way down the list.

As for the financials, it is equally risible to suppose that the money SCCA lost on Pro would have otherwise been spent promoting FF/FC/etc. It would very likely not have been spent at all. Any promotional spending would have been spread over Road Racing (or Majors racing) as a whole. Imagine the uproar if SCCA spent a million promoting some faltering formula classes.

I appreciate the difficulties of running a prep business, but you are barking the wrong tree here.

[Terry Hanushek]

I will agree that Runoffs stats are easier to acquire, but I will not agree that they are a reasonable proxy. Just the opposite. Look at how FF, GT1, and GTL move for example Participation values are more applicable, but only looking at Majors participation does not tell all.

I stated that the Runoff stats were a reasonable (not perfect) proxy for the Majors participation numbers and pointed out that they show the same trend with several open wheel classes at the bottom of the participation ladder. Using the Majors participation is probably the best measure since those are the numbers which have been used to recognize National classes and determine Runoff eligibility. I also believe that looking past the Majors participation to regional participation will paint an even more dismal picture for open wheel racing.

FM is in trouble and needs to find a place to race. FE is being absorbed into FE2.
But as I mentioned in another earlier post, FA, FB, F5 and F6, all suffer big time from a lack of common agenda within their community, which has in some cases, been increased by SCCA's misguided attempts to herd them. In 3 of those classes, one particular member has been instrumental in fueling the discord. What SCCA did to FB, based on the skewed participation numbers was shameful, which when combined with the whole engine restrictor fiasco, has been devastating to that class.

Because SCCA has spent hundreds of thousands, or millions, of our money, to bring F4 and F3 to the US, SCCA has fueled the decline of its existing OW classes. Just think if that money had been invested into the current SCCA OW classes. FX is a just platform to help get F4 into club racing. USF2000 cars should be in FC. Other spec OW cars can run in the FA/FB class. There is no need for FX, just as there is no need to reclass existing cars that were and will be running in the same race group anyway. It is just a shell game that will not change the on-track experience of the competitors.

I agree with the problems which you cite for the endangered classes. These problems are almost all internally inflicted ... and predate the introduction of F3 / F4 in this country. SCCA (on the Club Racing side) is a sanctioning body; it does not 'invest' in classes. I understand the impact of the rules making process and that seems to be the focus of many of your concerns.

[problemchild]

Imagine the uproar if SCCA spent a million promoting some faltering formula classes.
.

But you are good with SCCA spending a million dollars promoting new formula classes ...... even before noting that they are in direct competition with existing formula classes.

It is interesting that SCCA middle-management types are so content with the BOD supporting the F4-F3 endeavor. It is certainly a typical middle management play to support upper management while ignoring input from the people on the floor, who are living the issues. Thanks for your help!

[John Nesbitt]

It is inescapable that a very large part of the decline of Road Racing entries in general, and likely open wheel in particular, is due to external factors beyond SCCA's control. The great recession swept away a great deal of discretionary spending, for example.

In the early part of this decade, the Club tried to address the declining entry problem. The very first Majors plan (presented at the 2011 Runoffs) shared a fair bit of DNA with the FRP concept. The plan was to reduce the number of Nationals (now called Majors), and to concentrate classes into events (i.e. stage events for a limited number of classes, offering more track time and competition).

The plan might well have worked on the coasts, but the sparse demographics in the middle of the country made the concept uneconomic far large stretches of the Club. What we ended up with was basically a watered-down Majors concept, with Nationals renamed Majors, with every class welcome, and even Regional run groups at some events. Super Tour is kinda-sorta like the original concept, but without the concentration of classes that would have made events more attractive for entrants.

FRP came out with a similar concept - dedicated events - and scooped the table in the East.

[John Nesbitt]

But you are good with SCCA spending a million dollars promoting new formula classes ...... even before noting that they are in direct competition with existing formula classes.

It is a typical middle management play. Support upper management while ignoring input from the people on the floor, who are living the issues. Thanks for your help!

Let me be very clear: SCCA should not be subsidizing Pro. I have made this clear forever, and to suggest otherwise is mischievous.

And neither am I 'middle management'. I am not an employee. I am a member just like everybody else, and free to agree or disagree with the Club's direction.

What I am saying is that the Pro losses did not come at the cost of any hypothetical open wheel promotion. They came out of general funds, and those funds were never going to be dedicated to open wheel. There was never any 'Save Open Wheel' fund to get wasted on Pro.

What we need is a reality-based discussion, and less magical thinking.

[Bob Wright]

There's a lot of information in the last dozen or so posts, also some speculation and opinion. My 2 cents:

FRP started in 2006 with only F2000. Those participation numbers peaked in 2009, then suffered some as USF2000 came onto the scene. The real decline started in about 2014 (the start of F4 coincidently) and accelerated to an almost bankrupt class in 2019. Club numbers paralleled FRP's to a great extent. F1600 (anecdotally as I don't have the stats before 2011) was in deep trouble prior to the introduction of the FIT in 2009 and the success of the 40th reunion which I believe kick started new interest in the class. It has since seen a 'reasonable' resurgence, but nothing like its numbers in the 1980's. There is no question F3/F4 wounded FRP by sucking away new drivers, new and existing teams, just as RTI did. Have these hurt Club OWR? Its not as clear cut or prove-able. FRP certainly has affected Club, I will admit.

There are other reasons as well. I mentioned in an earlier post the lack of availability of production built cars. I believe there is a direct connection between the health of a class and the ability to buy a new car (order it today). It barely exists in F2000 or Atlantic. F1600 has multiple manufacturers offering cars (Mygale, Spectrum, and Piper are the top three). You can order a FE2, F3, F4, USF17, PM18 with a single phone call. They have dealers, parts support and a factory behind them. Given the number of these cars purchased, I don't 'buy' the argument that they cost too much (the LMP3 car costs over $200K and look how many of them have been purchased in the last few years).

Now we get to what I refer to as "life gets in the way of racing". A number of the OW classes require a lot of skill, time and dedication to succeed. Some of that is being lost as drivers move on to whatever new life pursuit awaits. Others go buy a spec car (FE, SRF...) with limited adjustability and less need to spend the time on setup. Those classes grow, the racing gets better so more people gravitate to them and the losing classes get mixed into alphabet soup which makes the experience worse, so more move to SRF, etc.

How do you fix the issue? One way is to Make the experience worth it. Focus on the classes that meet a specific set of criteria, support them with favorable rules and marginalize the rest (let them go vintage, or to other organizations such as Southern Series or GLC. They will find a home). Stop the dilution. FF has been around for 50 years, FC for 30+. There's a reason for it, but lets make sure its still valid. Don't ignore the F4 concept as it is a modern world car, much like FF was and is. FX is a good way to get F4 in the mix with some other orphans, but it will have to be the dominant car to survive and it currently is not (The VD MZR will wax it). To be dominant, it needs to be fun to drive and the current iteration is a slug with too much tire, too little HP, and very little adjustment (my personal observation only). Give it some decent wings and about 210 HP and I think you have a winner! FE2 seems to have solved most of the FE shortcomings and is really the new FC with factory support.

No matter how you cut it, you have to break some eggs to make the new omelet.

[Steve Demeter]

Well put Bob. Best explanation I have heard of the dilemma of decreasing participation in a l9ong long time.

[Jnovak]

Let me be very clear: SCCA should not be subsidizing Pro. I have made this clear forever, and to suggest otherwise is mischievous.

And neither am I 'middle management'. I am not an employee. I am a member just like everybody else, and free to agree or disagree with the Club's direction.

What I am saying is that the Pro losses did not come at the cost of any hypothetical open wheel promotion. They came out of general funds, and those funds were never going to be dedicated to open wheel. There was never any 'Save Open Wheel' fund to get wasted on Pro.

What we need is a reality-based discussion, and less magical thinking.

John thanks for your many rational posts. Based on your comments I am sure that you have some interesting ideas.

I have been a member for over 50 years and have been heavily involved is multiple OW classes. I , and others I have spoken to , would be very interested in learning more.

Perhaps we can start a discussion on ideas to save OW racing in the SCCA. I, personally, would appreciate hearing your ideas.

[reidhazelton]

What we need is a reality-based discussion, and less magical thinking.

What fun is that when you can speculate about millions of misappropriated funds?

[Jnovak]

How many open wheel classes should the SCCA have?

Here is my start of a list

1. FV
FF
FA OR similar even though I am a big fan! Does the club need FA

I am of the opinion that the slowest class should continue to be FV and that the fastest should be some sort of a winged beast of a car. But perhaps not the current FA rules.

How many classes can the club support? Please make your comments!

[Bob Wright]

I think 4 classes.

FV
FF
FX
FA

By explanation,

FA should be a real race car- a serious beast.

FX should be a winged car of medium HP and performance in the FC speed range. I point to the F4 as it is a modern tub car being built by many manufacturers around the world with parts and technical support, at a relatively decent price point. It could just as easily be the FE2. FF and FV should stay as they are.

[CGOffroad]

So...I can't help myself...Who's actually designing and building the car, who's funding the 'driver advancement', and where is it going to race? Oh, yea...what's it going to cost?

Did anybody answer this question?

[bill gillespie]

I think 4 classes.

FV
FF
FX
FA

By explanation,

FA should be a real race car- a serious beast.

FX should be a winged car of medium HP and performance in the FC speed range. I point to the F4 as it is a modern tub car being built by many manufacturers around the world with parts and technical support, at a relatively decent price point. It could just as easily be the FE2. FF and FV should stay as they are.

Hey Bob,
Ok, I’ll play.,,,, take the Swift 016 back to 1420 #, remove the restrictor, allow the 2.5 Mazda built to the same rules as the 2.3, minus the restrictor...,if thats not enough, open it to any 2.5 , 4 cylinder.. beast enough ?

[Bob Wright]

That would be in the ballpark. I think the 016 unfettered meets the criteria of ‘real race car’.

[Jnovak]

I also think 4 OW classes is right. Maybe 5. You absolutley have to fit FE2 in there too.

How about an FA as the top class with a modern 3 to 3.5 L V6. Bullet proof 275-300 hp at 1400 to 1450 lbs min weight. Sponsorship of the engine development program from ????

I understand putting FF in there but the cost to purchase and race a modern FF car with spares is insane imo. There must be a better faster and lower priced solution! That is actually easy to do imo, but I get it!

[Daryl DeArman]

I understand putting FF in there but the cost to purchase and race a modern FF car with spares is insane imo. There must be a better faster and lower priced solution! That is actually easy to do imo, but I get it!

There most certainly is, however given the sheer volume of FF's out there and their current participation level I don't see any "replacement" being embraced.

There are 2 healthy SCCA majors classes period. There are another 8-10 that have decent enough numbers that you can pretty much guarantee you can at least fill a podium +1. Yep, a class average of 4+ puts you in the top half.

No reason to have 14 of those Majors classes, except for the fact that it's a club and people with those cars want the class more than they want to race in larger fields.

[Jnovak]

I get and totally understand your comments about FF Daryl but the $$$$ required to compete for the win is crazy!

[Jnovak]

Double post

[Steve Bamford]

I get and totally understand your comments about FF Daryl but the $$$$ required to compete for the win is crazy!

Hasn't Reid proven your statement wrong in the past?

I can say the crash damage in an FF is better as you don't have to add the costs of the wings. Change to a street tire & your number one consumable cost will drop huge making it much more affordable saving over a grand a weekend.

Budgets to race F1600 are less then F2000, which is less then F4 which is less then USF...

[Tony Grau]

It would be great if we could get to 4 OW classes. Simpler would be much better. However, one challenge with getting to 4 is to please both the people who want “spec” classes vs those that want “Formula” classes. Maybe a dual path in OW is needed:

Formula classes: FV, FF, FC, FA <= the traditional - maybe get to 3 here?
Spec classes: not sure how many are needed - 2 that would be based on speed? F4 seems like a good basis for the slower. Like Bob Wright said - factory support, plenty of cars already built, etc. I agree that would have been a good path for FE2 but it might be difficult to change direction now.

Spec seems to be the most popular choice of most today. That is was got me back into road racing. Knowing the car is the same for everyone and limited development costs year to year. However, the engineer in me would love to play in the Formula classes and develop also. There just isn’t a lot of people to run with there today.

This is a healthy discussion that is needed to get OW racing more health at the club level again.

Tony Grau


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Daryl DeArman]

. . . but the $$$$ required to compete for the win is crazy!

Hasn't Reid proven your statement wrong in the past?

Money needed to win, and money needed to obtain and campaign a no-excuse effort can be worlds apart.

[Jnovak]

You can race in FF on the lower cost side of things but if you want to win you need a new car and a prep shop to win at the big races.

Your right in that Reid was very competitive in an older car thru MUCH TALENT and HARD WORK! But for him to compete at the front today would require a newer car imo. Hopefully Reid can chime in with his opinion.

[John LaRue]

What would be great is if everyone would quit complaining about what is wrong in OW racing on the internet and get their cars out of their garages and go race. SCCA, FRP and others will continue to work to make things better, but there is no magic bullet or answer that is going to make everyone rush to the track; you have to want to race. We have all become very good at making excuses for not going to the track, myself included.

A very interesting discussion was held concerning rotating the Runoffs venues. The point was made that when the venue was moved to the west coast many of the east coast participants did not make the trip. When the Runoffs returned east some of those who had participated for years did not resume participation; the move "broke" the tradition. I do not intend to derail this discussion with one about Runoffs, but it seems that as people (again including myself) lay out for a race or two it is easier to justify not coming back.

As noted elsewhere, B-Spec has built a community around their racing and it has flourished. The participants are all very active in communicating as to what events they will be racing and make it a point to paddock together. The regularly post and communicate about their car builds and share information about set ups and performance that the OW community would be appalled over. If we are to resurrect junior OW racing it is going to have to happen from the grassroots. SCCA, FRP nor any other promoter will be able to do this on their own. I strongly suggest that once the schedules are finalized a discussion be initiated so that we can focus on a few events where everyone will make an attempt to attend. Success breeds success.

John

[Jnovak]

It would be great if we could get to 4 OW classes. Simpler would be much better. However, one challenge with getting to 4 is to please both the people who want “spec” classes vs those that want “Formula” classes. Maybe a dual path in OW is needed:

Formula classes: FV, FF, FC, FA <= the traditional - maybe get to 3 here?
Spec classes: not sure how many are needed - 2 that would be based on speed? F4 seems like a good basis for the slower. Like Bob Wright said - factory support, plenty of cars already built, etc. I agree that would have been a good path for FE2 but it might be difficult to change direction now.

Spec seems to be the most popular choice of most today. That is was got me back into road racing. Knowing the car is the same for everyone and limited development costs year to year. However, the engineer in me would love to play in the Formula classes and develop also. There just isn’t a lot of people to run with there today.

This is a healthy discussion that is needed to get OW racing more health at the club level again.

Tony Grau


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Another important place to race is regionals! For instance there are several very well attended regional race series for OW classes such as FST, FC, F600 ETC! And this is just on my end of the country!

[reidhazelton]

What would be great is if everyone would quit complaining about what is wrong in OW racing on the internet and get their cars out of their garages and go race.

John

What happens when one prevents the other? What is wrong with SCCA and racing in general, is exactly what is keeping people away. That's the cost.

"It costs to much!"

"Shut up and race!"

"Uh....we can't. Because it cos....."

"Where is everyone??"

[reidhazelton]

You can race in FF on the lower cost side of things but if you want to win you need a new car and a prep shop to win at the big races.

Your right in that Reid was very competitive in an older car thru MUCH TALENT and HARD WORK! But for him to compete at the front today would require a newer car imo. Hopefully Reid can chime in with his opinion.

Thank you both. I very much appreciate the praise, especially considering the source. Thank you.

For me, there is ZERO chance I would have been able to run at the front, or even get in the game, if the current state as we see it was around in 2007. I bought a car out of college for $14k. After a few years and a ton of homework I made it work, and was able to drive it. Entry fees were about $300 Runoffs entry was $500. Each time I said "uh..you can't keep raising the price" people said that a hundred bucks was nothing in the grand scheme of things. Well, for one, it is. And two, say that ten or fifteen times and see how many people get priced out.

The entry costs are prohibitive for 99% of the population. I could afford $1,500 a year for engine expenses, I could not have afforded $30k+ for a Honda car that costs maybe $300 a year in engine expenses. That is the barrier. People then said "Oh, just sit out a year, save the money, and convert to a Honda." Uh, really? That's the solution? Stop being an income for SCCA, so you can later come back to SCCA? And, to make up the difference I would have had to sit out about three years. Bad sales pitch if you ask me.

Just as Jay and many others have said, it doesn't matter how cheap the car is to run - if it costs $80K people can't afford to enter. It could be free to run, but how many people can drop eighty large in one hit? Not many. The more expensive it is, the fewer people there are who can afford it. Period.

Just compare what a competitive used car cost in 2007. You could get a 98 VD for around $20k, or $14k in my case. Now, you can't touch a competitive car for under $30k.

[E1pix]

Man, the truth may hurt but at least it's true.

I don't know if or how this can be fixed, but I sure hope so. One beneficiary could well be you, or your friend that can't afford to race anymore, or me who's wanted to my whole life.

Well stated as always, Fella.

[John LaRue]

What happens when one prevents the other? What is wrong with SCCA and racing in general, is exactly what is keeping people away. That's the cost.

"It costs to much!"

"Shut up and race!"

"Uh....we can't. Because it cos....."

"Where is everyone??"

Reid, I don't disagree that costs are up significantly from when you jumped in years ago, but it is the same across the board in everything related to motorsports. As Bob Wright has pointed out above, there are lots of people spending lots of money in motorsports and other grids are doing well despite the costs. LMP3 and even the upper levels of karting are doing well. (I just returned from SKUSA Supernats where most everyone I spoke to was spending north of $15k for that one event.) I think Bob has it correct in that it is the experience that makes the difference; It speaks to the early success of FRP.

To build on your point though I believe that the immediate answer is right in front of us; it is the low hanging fruit. We don't need to sell FF/F1600 and FC/F2K to new people, we simply need to get those who have these cars sitting in their garages to roll them out and go racing. The number of additional entries necessary to turn these marginal grids into strong grids is not that many. We had 10 entries at VIR Runoffs in FC and 14 in FF. An additional 5-10 cars would have made those showcase races.

We all know that new cars are not necessary to compete in either of these classes. The technology has been steady for many years; the positive to this is that these cars are on the extreme end of the maturation curve as it concerns development. Regardless of how much effort and money one throws at these the gains will be extremely small. Any recent generation car that is well driven, assembled and set up has potential to be on the podium. Rob laid down a blistering pole lap at VIR in a VanDIemen besting Minor in a well developed Citation which many think is the must have car today. The Mygales are nothing special, they are fast because the kids that drive them are phenomenal and the set ups are well developed. I drove one of K-Hill's excellent Mygale1600 cars at Sebring in January; its all about the laps.

New cars and engines bring new development cycles which require testing and that doesn't come cheap. That is a major selling point for what we have in these classes: solid cars at bargain prices, reliable engines, steady rule sets, well developed and widely known set-ups and an absence of cutting edge development.

With few exceptions racing is not going to be cheap, but looking at the big picture these two classes in particular are bargains for what you get to experience.

John

[reidhazelton]

Reid, I don't disagree that costs are up significantly from when you jumped in years ago, but it is the same across the board in everything related to motorsports. As Bob Wright has pointed out above, there are lots of people spending lots of money in motorsports and other grids are doing well despite the costs. LMP3 and even the upper levels of karting are doing well. (I just returned from SKUSA Supernats where most everyone I spoke to was spending north of $15k for that one event.) I think Bob has it correct in that it is the experience that makes the difference; It speaks to the early success of FRP.

I think there is a mixing the target markets here. SCCA's target is not the $15k/weekend karter or the guy going out and buying an LMP3 car. It's the guy with the DB6 who builds his own engines and preps his car. Those are the people that are gone. That is the majority of SCCA. All that is left is the arrive and drive guys, and people with prod cars. Multiple $100 increases and major rules changes pushed those people out. I think this is one reason FV is still as successful as it is - decades of stable rules.

What I always thought was misguided about SCCA's marketing is who they target. Think of the market they are going for - someone who has enough resources to go racing, but not enough money to afford the better values of FRP or other pro series. That is a very, very small group of people who have resources to run SCCA but nothing else. Series that are showing success are either much lower price points (ChumpCar, FF Toyo tire Arizona deal, local vintage groups) or much better values (FRP). SCCA's product is the mix of the worst parts - higher price and lesser value.

To build on your point though I believe that the immediate answer is right in front of us; it is the low hanging fruit. We don't need to sell FF/F1600 and FC/F2K to new people, we simply need to get those who have these cars sitting in their garages to roll them out and go racing. The number of additional entries necessary to turn these marginal grids into strong grids is not that many. We had 10 entries at VIR Runoffs in FC and 14 in FF. An additional 5-10 cars would have made those showcase races.

While it may sound simple, in application it is not. Those people have parked cars for various reasons, and lack of desire or passion likely isn't one of them. Overcoming those reasons (lack of time, affordability, or competitiveness) is a really hard sell. I know five good friends of mine that used to run a ton of events a year. Now, zero. It will be very, very hard to get them back. Racing is like any addictive drug. In the beginning, life is good. Then you realize how much it's affecting your work, family, and finances so you quit. Then you realize there is more to life and going back to the racing crack pipe is a tough sell. For me, running the 50th was like main-lining a case of cocaine laced Marboros. I loved seeing all my track friends and new faces, as well as getting in a car again. Even that was not enough for me to overcome why I don't race anymore.

I have a friend who is in sales. He usually tells me a price he puts on something and I tell him he is nuts. His reply is the same. "In the world of nearly a 8 billion, I just need to find one person." While simple, in application it's still tough to find that one person willing to pay $50k for that 125k mile, 2002 Ford Taurus.

Tangent - I had a BoD member tell me something similar. They claimed they don't need one person who wants to run ten events, they just need ten people to run one event a year. That showed me SCCA, or at least that BoD member has no concept of what it costs the do-it-yourselfer. To run one race a year is insanely expensive. Recerts on belts, helmets, HANS, trailer reg, tow vehicle reg, insurance, medical, licenses, physicals etc.

We all know that new cars are not necessary to compete in either of these classes. The technology has been steady for many years; the positive to this is that these cars are on the extreme end of the maturation curve as it concerns development. Regardless of how much effort and money one throws at these the gains will be extremely small. Any recent generation car that is well driven, assembled and set up has potential to be on the podium. Rob laid down a blistering pole lap at VIR in a VanDIemen besting Minor in a well developed Citation which many think is the must have car today. The Mygales are nothing special, they are fast because the kids that drive them are phenomenal and the set ups are well developed. I drove one of K-Hill's excellent Mygale1600 cars at Sebring in January; its all about the laps.

Totally agree the tech has been stable for a while. Chassis to chassis, I don't think an 01+ VD gives up much to a Mygale. I've driven both. But, that's not really the comparison. It's a DB1 (or a 92 VD), to a Mygale, and that is a noticeable difference. It's the DB-1s that need to come out and many have gone to vintage because they are not felt to be competitive. A competitive car is still double what it cost in 2007 though. For many, that's the issue. No matter how cheap it is to run, $30k makes that a nonstarter. I think FC is a good sign of the issue. You can scoop a real nice VD Zetec for under $25k. That is a great deal. So the question is, why is FC not flourishing? My guess is the cost to run the car in SCCA is the barrier.

With few exceptions racing is not going to be cheap, but looking at the big picture these two classes in particular are bargains for what you get to experience. John

A bargain to one person, may still be cost prohibitive to another. If someone were selling an Ferrari FXX for $125k, that would be the best bargain on the planet. Doesn't mean they could afford it. This ties back to my target market issue. The SCCA product is marketed to the person who wants to, but can't afford the better bargain. They are selling over priced, used Ford Tauruses to people who can't afford the new Toyota Avalons.

Sorry for the lengthy rant, and thank you for your thoughts. It's pretty clear you're putting in significant effort to solve these issues and I certainly hope you succeed. You're definitely pushing a boulder uphill.

[reidhazelton]

I think the best bet, as John seemed to focus on, was bringing out existing cars - not finding new entrants. Here is why as I see it:

I have a group of friends that are die hard car guys. One has racing and car inspired tattoos. All of these friends are friends through cars. We go to car movies. We talk about cars. We meet up at car cruises. They all have good jobs - Volvo master tech, Crown Lift Truck senior tech, and even a computer science nerd. The all wrench on their cars and spend the weened in the shop with a kerosene jet heater. Three autocross. Usually, when I come to watch an autox event, the conversation usually turns to racing when someone says I used to wheel to wheel. The first comment is literally always "Oh man! I'd love to do that!!" Then someone asks "yeah, but what does an entry fee cost?" When I say $500 that entirely kills the conversation on the spot. Instant death. That doesn't even take into account the trailer, tow vehicle, safety gear, time off work, etc.

These are friends who have very good middle class jobs. Most are duel income, no kids. And yet, the affordability of SCCA is still seen as well out of reach. That's an issue.

[Peter Olivola]

Missing so far in this discussion is a component of the growth of FF that created the opportunity for people to get into the class at a very low price point. Cars purchased new filtered down to 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc., owners with a purchase price reduction at each step. In that sense, the race car market is exactly like the street car market. Each sale enabled the previous owner to upgrade at less total cost than if they'd started at the cost of that next purchase.

Cars are sitting in garages not just because the owner lost interest or considers the lack of value. Thanks to the insanity of vintage car market pricing, a belief that race cars are investments has infected the entire sport. Now, instead of selling a car for purchase - n, owners seem to think they should be able to sell for purchase + n. That has effectively eliminated one of the driver replenishment markets and is the principle reason there are so few new cars being built/sold.

[Jamesbe]

The first comment is literally always "Oh man! I'd love to do that!!" Then someone asks "yeah, but what does an entry fee cost?" When I say $500 that entirely kills the conversation on the spot. Instant death. That doesn't even take into account the trailer, tow vehicle, safety gear, time off work, etc.

These are friends who have very good middle class jobs. Most are duel income, no kids. And yet, the affordability of SCCA is still seen as well out of reach. That's an issue.

Same issue in Canada. Auto-x is $30cdn so $20usd

Race weekend is 450cdn, or 350 usd or our evening races are $250cdn or 200ish usd. Still way too much for most people.

Hpde days are $400ish still out of reach for a lot of people.

$500usd is crazy even to me and I do about 8 events a year here.

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[reidhazelton]

Missing so far in this discussion is a component of the growth of FF that created the opportunity for people to get into the class at a very low price point. Cars purchased new filtered down to 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc., owners with a purchase price reduction at each step. In that sense, the race car market is exactly like the street car market. Each sale enabled the previous owner to upgrade at less total cost than if they'd started at the cost of that next purchase.

I agree. But, the people buying the pre-90 VDs, DB-1s, and Reynards, are not going to SCCA. These cheap cars could be a substantial factor for the success of the local race orgs.

[Daryl DeArman]

These are friends who have very good middle class jobs. Most are duel income, no kids. And yet, the affordability of SCCA is still seen as well out of reach. That's an issue.

Yes the issue is that is "seen" as well out of reach. Their perception is what the SCCA is fighting. They are spending $500/mo on a daily driver car payment, or their cell phone plan and latte habit. Those things are worth it.

As to 1 driver x 10 events = 1 membership, 10 drivers x 1 event = 10 memberships. SCCA wins. That's also 9 additional cars bought/sold and maintained.

[E1pix]

Lest we forget the origins that creates nearly every racer...

As long as there continues to be no new fans coming to the track, there'll be nobody to replace current racers. Haven't we seen this coming?

The idea of Club members only being at most races is exclusionary and serves nobody. People want to feel welcome, not discounted as in so many other things these days.

Sometimes it seems the entire sport — at least in Club racing — hasn't given this any thought at all. Charge a nominal fee to cover insurance, tie in the sport with kids again, and watch big eyes turn into a bigger priority of what they'll spend money on.

A new street car? The SCCA guys I spent my childhood with couldn't have cared less about that. Somewhere, somehow, passion has largely left the circuit and I am convinced that said passion starts as a kid, not a wealthy guy who isn't likely to stay around like so very many I know, and have known for coming onto fifty years.

But specific to Formula and Prototype classes, I agree wholeheartedly in letting older Atlantic cars run in FB. Two issues solved with that.

[Jamesbe]

Yup speaking as a younger person (relatively) and having dealt with younger people at the track. They just want to drive, joining a club is not something they want to do, all the older guys keep pushing for club memberships that we couldn't care less about.

Can of worms but the entire license process also feels like an old boy's club and costs a fortune. That is part of the success of chump and others. Prove you aren't an idiot and let you on track.



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[reidhazelton]

Yes the issue is that is "seen" as well out of reach. Their perception is what the SCCA is fighting. They are spending $500/mo on a daily driver car payment, or their cell phone plan and latte habit. Those things are worth it.

As to 1 driver x 10 events = 1 membership, 10 drivers x 1 event = 10 memberships. SCCA wins. That's also 9 additional cars bought/sold and maintained.

No, there is a fundamental misunderstanding of my generation. None of us have $500 car payments. Not. Even. Close. Only one of us (me) even has a car payment. None of us have iPhone Xs, I have a five year old Samsung S7. No latte habit.

This is where it turns to "priorities". From experience I can tell you what a college grad has to give up to race SCCA. When the choice is to go racing, or have a girlfriend or wife, start a family, social time with friends, financial stability, a new car, own a house, or even eat normal food like a human being, it's a really hard sell. To go racing, I drove a 15 year old Dodge Neon my folks sold me in college for super cheap, rarely went out with friends, rarely ate out, constantly irritated my girlfriend, borrowed a truck to tow my 20 year old trailer I bartered for. I remember a winter that I even stopped on the way home from work to collect wood on the side of the road to burn in my fireplace to save on heating costs. At the track and night, by Dad and I would go to the Hoosier tent, ask for the used wheel weights, and spend the night cleaning the tape and sticky stuff off so we could reuse them or melt them down to make ballast.

That was what it took to race on an above average recent grad salary. Even at that, I was barely hanging on.

Pitch that to someone who wants to race and see how many takers you get.

PS. Member dues don't keep the lights on if no one shows up at the track. They could have a million membership, but if no one goes to the track, so what?

[reidhazelton]

Yup speaking as a younger person (relatively) and having dealt with younger people at the track. They just want to drive, joining a club is not something they want to do, all the older guys keep pushing for club memberships that we couldn't care less about.

Can of worms but the entire license process also feels like an old boy's club and costs a fortune. That is part of the success of chump and others. Prove you aren't an idiot and let you on track.

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Hey my man -

What brings you to the track? Or, what would bring you to the track? What keeps you away? In my book, it's pretty important target market research to ask the people you want to attract to see what they think. Crazy, I know.

Funny - I once sat in on a meeting at the Runoffs where a bunch of older males sat around a table scratching their heads about where all the "new blood" was. I was literally, half their age and the only person under 50 years old. Not one asked me how or why I came there.

[Jnovak]

I think there is a mixing the target markets here. SCCA's target is not the $15k/weekend karter or the guy going out and buying an LMP3 car. It's the guy with the DB6 who builds his own engines and preps his car. Those are the people that are gone. That is the majority of SCCA. All that is left is the arrive and drive guys, and people with prod cars. Multiple $100 increases and major rules changes pushed those people out. I think this is one reason FV is still as successful as it is - decades of stable rules.

What I always thought was misguided about SCCA's marketing is who they target. Think of the market they are going for - someone who has enough resources to go racing, but not enough money to afford the better values of FRP or other pro series. That is a very, very small group of people who have resources to run SCCA but nothing else. Series that are showing success are either much lower price points (ChumpCar, FF Toyo tire Arizona deal, local vintage groups) or much better values (FRP). SCCA's product is the mix of the worst parts - higher price and lesser value.



While it may sound simple, in application it is not. Those people have parked cars for various reasons, and lack of desire or passion likely isn't one of them. Overcoming those reasons (lack of time, affordability, or competitiveness) is a really hard sell. I know five good friends of mine that used to run a ton of events a year. Now, zero. It will be very, very hard to get them back. Racing is like any addictive drug. In the beginning, life is good. Then you realize how much it's affecting your work, family, and finances so you quit. Then you realize there is more to life and going back to the racing crack pipe is a tough sell. For me, running the 50th was like main-lining a case of cocaine laced Marboros. I loved seeing all my track friends and new faces, as well as getting in a car again. Even that was not enough for me to overcome why I don't race anymore.

I have a friend who is in sales. He usually tells me a price he puts on something and I tell him he is nuts. His reply is the same. "In the world of nearly a 8 billion, I just need to find one person." While simple, in application it's still tough to find that one person willing to pay $50k for that 125k mile, 2002 Ford Taurus.

Tangent - I had a BoD member tell me something similar. They claimed they don't need one person who wants to run ten events, they just need ten people to run one event a year. That showed me SCCA, or at least that BoD member has no concept of what it costs the do-it-yourselfer. To run one race a year is insanely expensive. Recerts on belts, helmets, HANS, trailer reg, tow vehicle reg, insurance, medical, licenses, physicals etc.



Totally agree the tech has been stable for a while. Chassis to chassis, I don't think an 01+ VD gives up much to a Mygale. I've driven both. But, that's not really the comparison. It's a DB1 (or a 92 VD), to a Mygale, and that is a noticeable difference. It's the DB-1s that need to come out and many have gone to vintage because they are not felt to be competitive. A competitive car is still double what it cost in 2007 though. For many, that's the issue. No matter how cheap it is to run, $30k makes that a nonstarter. I think FC is a good sign of the issue. You can scoop a real nice VD Zetec for under $25k. That is a great deal. So the question is, why is FC not flourishing? My guess is the cost to run the car in SCCA is the barrier.



A bargain to one person, may still be cost prohibitive to another. If someone were selling an Ferrari FXX for $125k, that would be the best bargain on the planet. Doesn't mean they could afford it. This ties back to my target market issue. The SCCA product is marketed to the person who wants to, but can't afford the better bargain. They are selling over priced, used Ford Tauruses to people who can't afford the new Toyota Avalons.

Sorry for the lengthy rant, and thank you for your thoughts. It's pretty clear you're putting in significant effort to solve these issues and I certainly hope you succeed. You're definitely pushing a boulder uphill.

Listen up SCCA. Hear this RACER!!!

[E1pix]

Funny - I once sat in on a meeting at the Runoffs where a bunch of older males sat around a table scratching their heads about where all the "new blood" was. I was literally, half their age and the only person under 50 years old. Not one asked me how or why I came there.

That's a great point Reid, and consistent with part of what I eluded to.

Question:
— What's the average age of Club racers today vs. the 1970s?
— Same question about everyone at the track who isn't driving?

I'd put money on the average age being +15 years by comparison to "my day" as a kid who would have spent it all to race instead of care about any other trappings. In fact I did, but in karting.

With all due respect to Mr. Novak, the SCCA needs to listen to the people who aren't on the grid every bit as much as they should to those that are. At least, if they care about new blood — even if that blood is coursing through old guys who'd be out there with just a few more reasons to be.