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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.DeVoe View Post
    1. How can having modern design tools be an unfair advantage? Key emphasis on unfair...
    it was sarcasm

  2. #202
    Not an aerodynamicist Wren's Avatar
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    It would clearly be unfair since no one else is using those tools or even has access to them.

    I wish I could have seen the rest of that post.

  3. #203
    Senior Member Matt M.'s Avatar
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    We got a nice gradual crescendo up until Tuesday........ And then nothing......

    Whats happened - what's going on.... who can fill us in!! Are there minutes online? Word on the street is it never came up...

    I'm probably the only guy who's sunk my entire life savings into a venezuelan hack saw blade company expecting to triple my return if this thing goes through.... We have the special - limited edition "paring knife" (get it, theres a little joke in there....... ..) ready to ship...... And like all great things - comes in a kit you have to assemble yourself!!

    Hey anybody bored with this and want to go in on a 997 with me? 2014 is going to be a big year in sportscars!!
    Last edited by Matt M.; 09.07.12 at 10:06 AM. Reason: too much telephone
    2006
    2007

  4. #204
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    You have way too much time on your hands. I know a local doctor that would be happy to meet with you

  5. #205
    Contributing Member Reddog's Avatar
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    Default A taildragger ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt M. View Post
    We got a nice gradual crescendo up until Tuesday........ And then nothing......

    Whats happened - what's going on.... who can fill us in!! Are there minutes online? Word on the street is it never came up...

    I'm probably the only guy who's sunk my entire life savings into a venezuelan hack saw blade company expecting to triple my return if this thing goes through.... We have the special - limited edition "paring knife" (get it, theres a little joke in there....... ..) ready to ship...... And like all great things - comes in a kit you have to assemble yourself!!

    Hey anybody bored with this and want to go in on a 997 with me? 2014 is going to be a big year in sportscars!!
    No a Cayman or a Boxster is the coming wave from Porsche ... not a taildragger 997 ... but I'd be willing to invest in ONE venezuelan hack saw blade ... ... SORRY back to the topic
    Last edited by Reddog; 09.07.12 at 7:23 PM. Reason: cuz I'm old

  6. #206
    Contributing Member Tom Valet's Avatar
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    Quickly read through the preliminary minutes and didnt see that this was discussed at the September meeting. So at least it wasnt ushered through without time to give it some thought and for members to comment.

    http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...im.minutes.pdf

  7. #207
    Classifieds Super License John Robinson II's Avatar
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    My understanding is this has been passed by the comp board on to the BoD with a few tweeks that allow current FFs to stay legal without having to buy Brazilian hacksaws and Egyptian tubing benders.
    So if you wrote a letter to the comp board in favor of the combining of the rules, you now need to send one to the BoD, seems that the letters for or against are not forwarded.

    John

    PS no conspiracy, just trying to make one place to go for the rules. That is unless you have already purchased a Radon. There was no intent on that attempt at humour. Besides, how can one make a decision on if something is illegal or not when they have never seen it?

    PSS I heard that someone maybe be abandoning the raised nose approach next year....

  8. #208
    Contributing Member Jnovak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Frog View Post
    I just know everyone is sitting on the edge of their chairs waiting for my review of this rule change.

    I have spent way too much of this weekend going through it and the current GCR line-by-line. I am honestly wondering how many FC and FF owners have attempted this excercise? Does anyone really care?

    I still don't believe we need this rewrite, things have been sweet the last couple of years on the rules front, but i fear the train has momentum.

    I'm going to just skip all the stuff about the new rules for interior cockpit panels and preventing the "Son of Radon". I have my opinion and you don't care.

    [FONT=Times New Roman]3. D.3.a. Stressed floor now doesn?t have to be flat. First time since 1986?.[/FONT]
    Mr. frog, ( I think?) I do not agree with your interpretation above. If you read further down under the section listed below, read it all it is not concise imo:
    [FONT=Univers-BoldItalic][FONT=Univers-BoldItalic][FONT=Univers-BoldItalic]D.5 Control of Undersides Shaping[/FONT]
    [/FONT]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers]It is the intent of these rules to minimize (not eliminate) the use of ?ground effects?.[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Univers-Italic][FONT=Univers-Italic][FONT=Univers-Italic]a. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers]A reference area is defined.[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Univers-Italic][FONT=Univers-Italic][FONT=Univers-Italic]Formula F: [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers]by the full width of the lowest surfaces of the car licked by the airstream [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers]between the front axle centerline [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Univers-Italic][FONT=Univers-Italic][FONT=Univers-Italic]bulkhead as described in D.3.a above [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers]and the rear of the [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers]rear tires.[/FONT][/FONT]

    [FONT=Univers-Italic][FONT=Univers-Italic][FONT=Univers-Italic][FONT=Univers-Italic][FONT=Univers-Italic][FONT=Univers-Italic]Formula Continental: by the full width of the lowest surfaces of the car licked by the air[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Univers-Italic][FONT=Univers-Italic][FONT=Univers-Italic][FONT=Univers-Italic][FONT=Univers-Italic][FONT=Univers-Italic]stream between the front bulkhead as described in D.3.a above [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Univers-Italic][FONT=Univers-Italic][FONT=Univers-Italic]and the front edge of the rear tires. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers]These surfaces may include the floor pan, undertrays, [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Univers-Italic][FONT=Univers-Italic][FONT=Univers-Italic]diffusers, [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers]side pod bottoms and any essentially horizontal bodywork that is included in the lowest surfaces licked by the air stream. Within this reference area, the lowest surfaces licked by the air stream must be flat with a total vertical tolerance of 25.4mm. An undertray beneath the engine, bell housing and/ or gearbox is not required.[/FONT][/FONT]

    [FONT=Univers-Italic][FONT=Univers-Italic][FONT=Univers-Italic]1. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers]Mirrors and any primarily vertical bodywork (e.g., cockpit/radiator sides [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Univers-Italic][FONT=Univers-Italic][FONT=Univers-Italic]45 degrees or greater relative to the ground) [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers]that extend laterally past the outer edges of [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers]the floor pan and/or undertrays are not subject to the reference area restrictions.[/FONT][/FONT]

    [FONT=Univers-Italic][FONT=Univers-Italic][FONT=Univers-Italic]2. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers]Fairings for streamlining suspension pickups are not subject to the reference area[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers]restrictions; however, such fairings shall be symmetrical about their horizontal axis.[/FONT][/FONT]

    [FONT=Univers-Italic][FONT=Univers-Italic][FONT=Univers-Italic]3. The perimeter of any reference area surface that transitions upward to any bodywork may [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Univers-Italic][FONT=Univers-Italic][FONT=Univers-Italic]use a maximum 1 inch radius and shall be included in the reference surface [/FONT][FONT=Univers-Italic]measurement.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

    [FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers]b[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers]. Measurement for compliance of the defined area shall be performed as follows:[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers]1. A non-flexible straight-edge bar shall be placed against the lower surface of the reference area in a suitable section (unworn and flat enough to prevent rocking of the bar) from which the bar can be oriented to measure all parts of the reference area. The competitor shall be responsible for the availability an[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Univers-Italic][FONT=Univers-Italic]d condition [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers]of such a surface. The bar shall be of sufficient length to reach all portions of the reference area from that surface.[/FONT][/FONT]

    [FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers]2. All measurements shall be taken vertically from the bar to the reference area surfaces. The total maximum vertical distance (additive upward and downward) from the bar to any part of the reference area surfaces shall be 2.54 cm. Skid blocks and or rub strips are not included in this measurement.[/FONT][/FONT]

    [FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers]c. No aerodynamic devices (e.g., skirts, body sides, skid ?planks?, undertrays, skid blocks, etc.) may extend more than 1 cm (.394 inches) below the reference area.[/FONT][/FONT]

    This clearly states that all surfaces on the bottom of the car licked by the airstream must be within 25mm (total - highet to lowest) measured from the reference plane. This includes the floor pans of the chassis too.

    I hope I got all the formatting correct as the strike thru texr does not format correctly so I tried to remove it all.




    Thanks ... Jay Novak

  9. #209
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    Not quite, Jay.

    The cars can now incorporate a raised footbox, which is what everyone seems to want to see nowadays (and was a concession to both the Radon and the RFR) However, for the car to be legal, you will have to run a "splitter" that "shadows" the raised section(s) of the floorpan - you cannot have a splitter that tapers to a point at the front bulkhead since that would expose some of the raised floorpan - if there is nothing below the exposed floorpan, the exposed area automatically becomes the "lowest surface" within that area.

    This basically is what was done on the ('91?) EuroSwift, the BRD, and most recently on the RFR.

    If that explanation is not clear enough going forward, the wording could be changed to say something like "for the full width of the bodywork, the lowest surfaces......". That might make it a bit clearer at first glances.

  10. #210
    Grand Pooh Bah Purple Frog's Avatar
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    Honorable Jay,

    You are a good man, and i wish you a merry Christmas and a wonderfully happy new year.


  11. #211
    Contributing Member Jnovak's Avatar
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    I guess we will have to wait for the official rewrite. This really needs to be tidied up.

    Richard, I saw a picture of the Radon and it appeared to have a flat floor pan that was raised up on an angle towards the front of the front bulkhead. It definitely looked like it was higher than the 25.4 mm allowed under the new rule. Perhaps my visual interpretation to the picture was not correct. If I am correct then the Radon would not be legal under the new rule. Can someone clarify this issue.

    PS: I hate it when legal cars are ruled illegal. I know all about that.

    Thanks ... Jay Novak
    Last edited by Jnovak; 12.23.12 at 12:51 AM.

  12. #212
    Heterochromic Papillae starkejt's Avatar
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    Nice edit by the purple one.

  13. #213
    Contributing Member Jnovak's Avatar
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    He is quick, very quick. Merry chrismas to all and to all a good night.

    Thanks ... Jay Novak

  14. #214
    Grand Pooh Bah Purple Frog's Avatar
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    Jay,
    Please realize the "floorpan" or bottom of chassis rails, and the "bottom reference plane" are two distinctly different things.

    Happy St Patricks Day too.


  15. #215
    Contributing Member Jnovak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Frog View Post
    Jay,
    Please realize the "floorpan" or bottom of chassis rails, and the "bottom reference plane" are two distinctly different things.

    Happy St Patricks Day too.
    Absolutely true, I completely agree. However with the way the proposed rule was "originally worded" the maximum total difference up and down from the reference plane to any lower surface licked by the airstream could not exceed 25.4 mm.

    Now this does not mean that you cannot have a "false floor" But it better hide everything above it and it had better fit that spec.

    This is a somewhat similar rule to the FB rule except that in FB nothing can be below the reference plane. While I was designing and building our new sidepods on our Piper I learned an awful lot about the proper application of tolerances and how close you can do body molds etc. An interesting experience to say the least. First you had better accurately define your reference plane and where is it the best positioned for all the many required measurements. Good thing we have a bedplate in our shop.

    Thanks ... Jay

  16. #216
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    Who's writing this stuff......The Politicians???

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Frog View Post
    Jay,
    Please realize the "floorpan" or bottom of chassis rails, and the "bottom reference plane" are two distinctly different things.

    Happy St Patricks Day too.

    Make that "can be" different - on many cars they are one and the same.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jnovak View Post

    Richard, I saw a picture of the Radon and it appeared to have a flat floor pan that was raised up on an angle towards the front of the front bulkhead. It definitely looked like it was higher than the 25.4 mm allowed under the new rule. Perhaps my visual interpretation to the picture was not correct. If I am correct then the Radon would not be legal under the new rule. Can someone clarify this issue.
    The radon and any other car with some sort of raised footbox will only have to extend their splitter forward to the front bulkhead to re-comply with the reference area change. And, of course, it will need to shadow any exposed floorpan or bodywork that is above it.

    The FF/FC rules always had the 1" allowance be worded such that you could go downwards as well as upwards. However, since downwards designs (with the exception of skid blocks and short skirts) are pretty non-existent, I think that the FB writers decided that only upwards would be allowed, with the same sort of exception for skids, etc.

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