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So, how does this really work and why is it being done?
Super Tour New Orleans this weekend -
Total entries - 123
Spec Miata entries - 15
Spec Miata SMX entries - 11
Qualifying times have those two groups within about 4 seconds of each other. Why on earth would those two not be paired together allowing for another race group?
SCCA thinks it's fine to put FV on the track with other classes 10 seconds and more faster, so what's the deal with a 4 second separation and 26 cars on the track?
Rotten
Aren't a lot of the same cars entered into both classes?
Don't know. Why does the same car need to be able to run two classes anyway?Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
Edit: I went and checked. There is one driver entered in both races but with different cars. So, it would impact that one person to combine the groups.
Different carsQuote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
Spec Miata are Miata NAs and NBs
SMX are Miata NCs (Previous generation MX5 cup cars)
Current production Miatas and MX5 cup cars are NDs
Steve
The SCCA has been "graying" for some time but withstood the implications.
The death of the SCCA, as the way things are now, is if there is ever a viable nationwide Sanctioning Body that rents many a track and is called the Miata & Mazda Club of America such that many of the current SCCA Mazda cars never show up at SCCA events in that future.
Who knows what the SCCA would do......but I bet it would not be > try to get as many open wheel Classes on track as possible.
It's hyperbole of course but one answer that reflects what's been going on at "National" and Regional levels...... (which is inventing a zillion different Classes that Miatas run in)..... is there would be Classes for Miata cars painted yellow and one for red and one for green and one for........on and on
One answer..........because there are many "barn kept open wheel cars" wherein the owner cannot afford to run the car anymore.....would be for the Regions to award to at least the "Regional only" Classes.........examples: Club Ford & Club Continental and the like........Class winner gets free entry to the next event & second place gets half off to that Region's next event. This won't increase car counts in non-Miata Classes much....but it's a start.
And it would not apply to me - so I'm not wearing blinders or being selfish
Either stop inventing Classes - because the SCCA likes to say > bring it out, we've got a Class for that - but it sure doesn't seem they act as if they mean it
or
Have Regions invent Classes for cars older than about 30 years and call them "Club Classes" and award entries as above.
.........but the SCCA will never stop inventing Classes because of the excuse that > things change and proceed.
Mazda owns scca; to believe otherwise is pointless.....
Before we go off making a statement based on one race, last year at NOLA
FV 5
FF 2
F6 0
https://www.crbscca.com/staffAdmin/p...p?theYear=2024
Might not have anything to do with the SCCA - maybe NOLA should not be a Super Tour event?
Or is this a harbinger of the economy in 2025? Last year there were 222 entries, this year only 123 as per Motorsports Reg.
https://www.motorsportreg.com/index....8E2B4BF87F049F
ChrisZ
Appears that event entries are down 10-20% on average, some far more, this year compared to last year.
As for NOLA specifically, I wonder if last year it got a boost from taking what had been the COTA slot.
Jeff
What are the new Whelen Spec MX5's - NDs also? Yeah, there's a new Miata class now, coming June 2025, check your April Fastrack.Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveG
Not sure what happened to my previous post, seems like a bunch of stuff got wiped, presumably with the board troubles?
I joined SCCA in 1968 and started racing FVs up and down the East coast. That was probably the beginning of the golden age of formula car racing in SCCA. Formula Vee was going into the second generation of car designs and F1600 was just starting. The biggest win I ever had, as a driver, was at June Springs when I won the FF race with over 80 Formula Fords in the race.
Back then the economics of racing were very different than today. A new, ready to race FV in those days was about $3,000. Medium income in those days was $8,000. F1600's back then were $4,000. Also there was a large turn over of good race cars so it was possible to start racing with a formula car that was just a few thousand dollars. Today, the costs are way higher compared to what a person making medium income faces. Funny how it works that when prices go up, sales go down.
Today FV has a parts issue. There are no more VW in the junk yards waiting to find a new life as a race car. FF has risen in cost to where a new car is in the dollar range medium income today. The closest cost to race today to what FV was when I started racing are the Miata classes. And these are not formula cars. Unlike FV in its hay days, today there is nothing on the street that can be turned into a formula car as easily as an old VW Beatle.
If we had a formula car class that had a Formula Ford type chassis and say a 600 cc bike engine, it might be possible to get the car cost down to something around $30,000 for a new, ready to race car. The car would be close enough to FF performance that the car could race heads up against a FF.
But I have to remind myself that SCCA is the Sports Car Club of America. It is not the Formula Car Club of America. Enough said.
As to the survival of open wheel.....the SCCA is trying to do so I believe.....but in their own fashion - which is FE/FE2 (and it's not benefiting small bore open wheel)
Without actually owning or pricing 'em or their parts (so like I say > like EYE know anything)......... FE or FE2 costs seem, at least to me, possibly inflated because SCCA gets the parts from Van Diemen and sticks a chip on it, marks up the part, and then sells it to the members. It's a heck of a lot of car and cost to an entry level Driver......so I guess there's not a lot of Novices in FE/FE2 somewhat due to cost and somewhat due to a Novice with little competition experience not wanting to jump deeply into the deep end of a very fast swimming pool.
Tom (y'all know who) did a smart thing.......he bought all the FE type parts straight from VD, stuck a 1000 cc motorcycle engine in the back instead........and had an SCCA car for less money which turned out to be faster than FEs.
SCCA is not trying to one way or the other invent their own small bore open wheel car. ....and we who own such cars from the 20th Century will eventually all be in the same Class.....it will be called Formula Dinosaur. Remember, the origin of Formula Ford was to take ready available stock parts and assemble them and a chassis into a School Car for less than a certain price.
Then evolution......such that........
Later the various Schools decided to have races in those cars against each other....and the price thing about a new car went out the window too.
and evolution continued.....
If the SCCA did invent a small bore no wing open wheel car, think....... $7,000 for four new Penske three-way shocks these days......or a rule that uses stock piston shocks from a whatever small car these days?
and the non-SCCA Schools that would use "Things" are struggling to survive, folded or folding
HST Entries - 2024 vs 2025
Sebring Entries 2024 = 363; 2025 = 294; loss of 69 (Formula/Prototype cars down 4 from 2024)
NOLA Entries 2024 = 222; 2025 = 126; loss of 96 (Formula/Prototype cars down 17 from 2024)
Buttonwillow Entries 2024 = 138; 2025 = 152; gain of 14 (small bore formula classes were included b/c this was a west coast HST) (Formula/Prototype cars down 12 from 2024)
Road Atlanta Entries 2024 = 289; 2025 = 228; loss of 61 (Formula/Prototype cars down 43 from 2024)
I, for one, am happy to see this kind of support from a manufacturer. Miatas don't just run in the SCCA, either. Mazda is willing to give us good, no-haggle pricing on new passenger cars, too. I'm sure the FF and B-Spec folks could tell you about their experience with the Honda relationship. There's even been talk of Honda leaving IndyCar. We're not IMSA, so we unfortunately don't draw the kind of manufacturer support they do. If only FC could get the MZR allowed in all their chassis; talk about a game changer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lotus7
The loss was in FF/FC (1ea). FE2 had like 6. FV has 5.Quote:
Originally Posted by John LaRue
The regional in March had 9 FC and I think 8 FF and only 2 or 3 FE2.
It's very simple on the west coast. Few are planning to go to the runoffs. Those that are in OW are running FE2.
All of the PacificF2000 events are regionals. I see them always welcoming the group.
When, after Sonoma, they 'pulled' the runoffs from the west coast, most thought of that as a middle finger to us.
They say we count (and we do for numbers that benefit everyone else) but I think that's the 4th great lie.
I believe it currently is allowed paired with the sequential box using a specific mapping in the USF2000 cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by CheckeredFlag
A new engine is not the answer.
It might be if it says "Mazda" on the valve cover.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
Being one of the older members of this forum, I think I'm in a position to suggest some perspective on this that is a bit less grounded in conspiracy theories and more an observation of the facts on the ground.
In the heyday of FF there were many prep shops, a lot of whom were also chassis dealers. Some were also engine builders. There was a lot of buzz around the class about where World Champions started their careers. There were few other race sanctioning bodies for club/semi-pro racing. The class started from nothing, was originally included in FB, and quickly established the numbers necessary to become a separate class. FF had a good run before slowly declining participation left us where we are today. The reasons for the decline aren't, in my opinion, germane to this discussion.
It actually took SM longer to become a National class than it did FF. Nevertheless, there are many prep shops helping to promote the class. There are SM alumni who're beginning to make their presence known in professional racing series. The cars are cheaper to put on the track than a modern FF. Competition begets competition and those with an itch to test themselves see SM(*) as a place to do that at the most easily justified cost.
Ford never contributed to the promotion of FF in the U.S. the way Mazda has done for SM(*) while at the same time, SCCA is no longer to sole go to sanctioning body for club racing.
External to all this, but, again in my opinion, a significant contributing factor to the decline of interest in formula car racing generally was the CART/IRL split and subsequent loss of interest in open wheel racing. When F1 started to bring that back there was and is no connection between SCCA formula car classes at the club level and the World Championship. There is no equivalent FF to F1 of the likes of Emerson Fittipaldi or James Hunt.
It pains me to say so as I was a participant in the class back in the day, but we are living in the third decade of the twenty-first century, not the eighth decade of the twentieth.
Peter,
No dispute with what you wrote.
My point regarding the HST exclusion of small bore formula cars remains. This edict that comes from SCCA headquarters is absurd given that it forces the region hosting the event to eliminate the cars with no regards to potential participation numbers.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the hosting regions in regular "national" level events can adjust the schedule and grouping per entries that come in. The NOLA HST clearly could have eliminated one group by combining the Mazda Miata cars in a single group. That would open up the event to another group.
I have no issue with Mazda.
I have an issue with the SCCA as I do not believe their decisions are based upon the club owners wishes.
I have an issue with the SCCA because these decisions are made without the input needed to avoid the appearance of impropriety.
Regards,
Barry
The big experiment will be the June Sprints - going back to the one race format.
I am not the first to point out the issues with the Super Tour:
1. 3 day event
2. Entire country.
Even the TransAm and Atlantic had East and West Championships at one time. The travel and time alone makes the ST unaffordable for most FV and many of the FF competitors.
Now if someone had trailers and could take 20 FF around the country as sort of rent a series….oh sorry, I just described the original Skip Barber series…..
ChrisZ
To Peter's point, It seems to me that the SCCA hitched it's horse to CART, which lost the Indy battle. I don't know if the disconnect between SCCA club and the Indy ladder is a result of that, but it sure is coincidental.
It seems now that the major series want to own and control their ladders. While we all thought it was pretty cool to see regional members filling in the grids at pro event support races, none of the 20 or so wealthy families paying for their young guns to run in the ladder want to chance them colliding with some old local guy on the way to Indycar stardom.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLS
HST is very much the National Office's baby, almost on a par with the Runoffs. And, notwithstanding any claims from SCCA to the contrary, the elimination of small open wheel in favor of a second SM group must be laid at Topeka's door.
The explanations proffered for this change are so inadequate that they invite speculation. (I am with Occam on this issue: Do not ascribe to conspiracy anything that can be explained by simple stupidity and obliviousness.)
You are certainly correct about run group composition at HST vs. non-HST events. Again, the National Office is deeply possessive of all aspects of these events.
I have memories (I won't otherwise characterize them) sitting on top of Fireman's Hill at Road America watching the FAtl field stream into Turn 5. A bit back in the pack was a legacy former FF Runoffs National Champion who braked much earlier than anyone else. He was collected and retired. So I don't think you can make the highlighted statement without noting that it went both ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Kirchner
For sure - but whether it's the ladder series, Indycar, or F1, the fast guys are still going to bitch about the slower guys no matter what.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Olivola
I guess I don't see how that relates to the issue at hand. How is that any different than any form or level of racing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Kirchner
I think the issue has become that racing in SCCA is no longer any part of the ladder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Olivola
Kids are being told club racing is a waste of time.
ButtonWillow was a 2 day event this year.....Quote:
Originally Posted by FVRacer21
I've posted many times about a multiple runoffs format. It's the only way to make Majors relevant to everyone.
I can see that, but are you suggesting there's something SCCA can do about it? The club has a less than stellar record of handling pro series at any level and seems to have finally come to the conclusion that Alex Keller was right in trying to offload all pro racing to other organizations.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
When FF was at its most useful in developing drivers aspiring to pro futures it was under the direction of a single person, Bill Claren, who actually had a NASCAR background. Others may have a different view of Bill, but I only ever saw the velvet glove. He went out of his way to make everyone feel welcome even if we were just spear carriers. I think Vicki was the same for Formula Atlantic.
As a steward I've worked with several Race Directors in Super Tours. The only one who I consider to be the complete package was Costa Dunias. And maybe that's a significant part of the problem. The Super Tour program so far has a poor record of identifying and promoting Race Directors who engender the kind of loyalty Bill and Vicki enjoyed (there's probably a multi-page thread on that subject all its own.)
There are issues with SCCA that are a mix of the club's fundamental structure and people, but that, too, is worth its own thread and would probably set a record for length.
Just a thought, but maybe it was rich mommy and daddy didn't like there precious kid get beaten by and old fart?
Ed
Vicki will always be one of my all time favorite people that I've met in racing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Olivola
My years racing the Atlantic series with her at the helm were the best. She always made me feel like I had a second Mom at the track.
In order to have good representation at a Super Tour event, you have to have a strong base of local cars. This means a strong regional program. FF, FV (and F6) do not have the multiple car teams and rent a ride options that the other classes have. FF and F6 are working on building up their classes. FV is not quite there yet.
In order to have a strong Regional program you have to have multiple tracks within a reasonable driving range (4 - 5 hours?). That is why NE and the Midwest have larger fields than most other areas. In NE we have 4 tracks within the 4 hour range and 2 more if you go to 6 hours.
Now the saving grace might be these “club” tracks which are popping up, but they might have limited paddock space and lack the proper certifications. Racing in regional SCCA today is as much a social group as a competition group, so driving 12 hours to get to a track only has a small number of willing drivers.. Any driver with any kids is going to have a problem with that today.
Then, unlike the “old” days, where there was a large driver contingent, you really need a class oriented group of members to promote and bring in new drivers and help them get started. We are seeing that in NEFV, Challenge Cup and DriverZ cup.
Some might say you don’t run any ST events anyway. Right - I could never justify the cost and time. OTOH, if there was a ST event at Lime Rock - I would be there in a flash!
ChrisZ
Just a thought, but what we're seeing now is old farts squaring up against kids and their parents in impound.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Womer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Womer
Kind of a detour from the thread, but helicopter parents are the bane of a steward's existence. I usually tell Dad that, if Junior is old enough to strap on a racecar, he is old enough to fight his own battles in impound and the SOM room.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Olivola
Yes they can. Some thoughtsQuote:
Originally Posted by Peter Olivola
First thing they can do is stop threatening the participation of classes for runoffs.
No one wants to commit to something that might simply go away.
Second. SccaProRacing.com promotes 5 series. 4 of which are open wheel. The licensing process asks for a resume. I don't see any links about how to build a resume or links to places that can help you build a resume.
Third. Good on Bob for getting FRP listed there. But what does it have to do with SCCA/SCCA Pro? FRP WAS a runoffs qualifying series (a should still be), but what about listing all the other series that run within the SCCA. Great Lakes, Southern, Pacific, FC Challenge, FF Challenge, Formula F the Series. All of these series events should also be counted in the national numbers as they have an elevated level of competition.
Fourth. Promote SCCA racing at the regional level, not just Majors and ST. It's the Majors/ST 'thing' that has forced more travel and has increased costs. They took away paths to the runoffs and replace them with more expensive routes and then you're surprised by declining participation? Am I saying the Major's experience has run it's course? Everyone joined in at the beginning but maybe it's gotten old? Does the Majors series actually promote club racing? or is it just that National wants a grip on everything. Maybe we need a 'libertarian' approach - less National - had back power to the regions.
Fifth. Negotiate with Pro series to cross promote. Get MAV tv (now Racer media?) to promote club racing. Mazda runs ads during a lot of pro broadcasts. Is it surprising then that SM has a big following.
Who knows.... Your reply implies that you believe they can't do anything about it. Maybe that is the belief at HQ as well.
Then what are we doing?
1) I realize the removal of small bore open wheel from HST events feels like a threat to end Runoffs eligibility for those classes. The club is faced with tough choices in managing the Runoffs. Much of it of our own making and most notably due to class proliferation. There is still a viable path for small bore to get to the Runoffs, but only if there is participation in the three affected classes, something Topeka doesn't control nearly as directly as individual competitors.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
2) An issue perhaps but how does that relate to getting existing car owners/drivers, very few of whom are looking at a possible pro career, to enter events?
3) That's a bit of a gish gallop but I'll take a shot anyway. FRP is no longer operated within an SCCA sanction structure. As I noted elsewhere, the club has a less than stellar history of managing pro programs and it would seem someone recognized that and decided to offload responsibility to a willing third party. While nice, using FRP as a qualifying series for the Runoffs was an anomaly to begin with. No such program existed for any other class. Other series running in conjunction with SCCA Road Racing weekends have a choice: HST/Majors/Regionals. Running Regionals but qualifying for the Runoffs would be another anomaly not available to other classes. It is perceived as special treatment.
4) This seems to be a bit self contradictory. I read it as a veiled promotion of the argument to eliminate differences between Regionals and Majors. There are a growing number of regions looking at the cost of running an HST and considering dropping to a non-HST Majors. I would also question the premise that National promotes the HST but not Regionals. Define promotion. Everything I see is internal to the club. What form of Regionals promotion are you looking for? Regions already have complete control over Regional racing and about the same control over non-HST Majors as they did over the old Nationals. So that leaves HST which, as noted above, is coming under increased scrutiny by regions. If you're talking about the live on-line coverage of the HST, any region can do that now, but National has only so many resources and there aren't enough hours in the day, days of the week and weeks in the year for Greg Ginsberg to cover every SCCA Road Racing weekend.
5) See my reply to 4 above, but you do understand the HST live online coverage is entirely done by the Club. What makes you think MAV TV or any pro series that already draws an audience would be willing to do as you suggest? What makes you think the club hasn't already explored such things? Those aren't the kinds of things that make for good inter-sanctioning body relations when they're made public without a deal in place.
My reply was asking for your input. Unlike Tony Stefanelli, none of your five points addresses getting competitors directly out to events. Your list is more like "what are you going to do for me," than an effort to work to resolve the problems. We are a club, not a public service.
I'll preface this by saying I don't intend to contradict any of your points but I want to give an anecdote and a suggestion for HST vs Regional promotion by the club.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Olivola
SCCA spent enough money to buy targeted ads that I was served them for a month leading up to the Buttonwillow HST, a race on the complete other side of the country from me. In the 10+ years of researching driving schools leading up to last year, I never once had a targeted ad for a SCCA Competition School. Skip Barber, sure, Lucas oil, Kaizen, Primal also yes. But as someone who was actively looking for information on renting a car for the Roebling School and SCCA licensing, it never once popped up. It was all internal promotion and information as you noted above. You had to be in the know.
You wanna bring new people in to the sport, partner with some B-spec, Spec Miata, SRF3, FF, FV, etc. prep shops, build up an ad campaign for Roebling/Waterford/Fill in the blank school weekend with the goal of filling those seats with freshly medical-ed novice drivers. Run it for a month or 2 in advance of the date and see what happens.
Hell, making a post on Facebook or Instagram just saying "Here's what's happening this month around the club" for all the different programs would be an improvement. They already did that in Sportscar, it was buried in the back right before the ads.
HST at VIR this coming weekend:
Group 6 has 20 entries. Group 6 is big bore formula and SR's.
Last year that group had 19 entries
Last year the FF/F6/FV group had 14 entries (10 FV)
When will the big bore formula / sports racers get cut from the Hoosier Super Tour?
FV was the 3rd largest class at the 2024 Runoffs, exceeding SMX by three cars (at least by finishing results). SM and SRF were the top 2.
The 3rd largest class at the SCCA Runoffs is prohibited from participation in Hoosier Super Tour Events. Maybe FV drivers should stop purchasing Hoosier tires.
Sorry for continuing OT, but I really appreciate reading this — and Thanks to Peter for bringing her up.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonebridge20
I didn’t know Vicki overly well (beyond lettering about eight S2000 cars in ‘85, including all of CSK’s), but her right hand over those years and until today is our dear friend Patti. I also knew Bill from the early ‘70s and he was one amazing guy to me as a kid.
Nice that Vicki has similar good memories for you both. I was heartbroken when Pro-Motion sold off.
Here are the numbers: (all Majors)
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/ima...AAAElFTkSuQmCC
FF did not even make it into the top 15 overall in ALL Majors - much less Super Tour.
At least FF COULD run with FC (18th in Majors)
The biggest FV field in the HST (besides the 19 that showed up at the June Sprints to test for the Runoffs) was 12 at Road Atlanta.
Most were around 5 - 7. Cannot have a race with that many cars.
But FF was worse! If both classes could scrape together 10 cars each, it might have saved the group.
Say what you will, SMX came in from nothing to the 3rd largest group.
They averaged 22+ in the HST, by themselves, and could have been mixed with SM if needed.
Yes, FV was 3rd at the Runoffs, but did not show up during the year. That was the issue.
BTW - this has been coming for a long time - since I have been in the SCCA. Oscar Kovalseki started prompting the Pocono National in the 1970's. Lime Rock had the Cannon Nationals at Lime Rock at the same time. These promoted Nationals became the "Super Nationals" which were the predecessor of the Majors and Hoosier Super Tour. 250+ cars at Lime Rock and only 150 at Bryar. And in those days it was 30+ FF and 30+ FV. Lots of the big classes then are now gone. Anyone remember A Sports Racing? Showroom Stock? (we had 3 classes) Super Vee?
There is a lot to unpack, but Pete is right - yelling at the SCCA will not get it done. B-Spec and now FF are doing the right thing.
ChrisZ
A/SR struggled with entries for obvious reasons, but when stacked with B/SR and C/SR at the June Sprints it was a pretty epic show in the ‘70s.
A/SR at the ‘72 Runoffs was in the pouring rain and it nearly snowed, and a great show with Charlie Kemp in the Penske Porsche 917/10K still in L&M colors chasing Steve Durst in a McLaren M8D/E and a driver I will not name.
So yes, some here well remember this stuff. I was 12, and it was my first of 19 Runoffs attended to date.
I had a rack of lifetime friends in Super Vee, too, but sadly four of my main six friends from the Pro series in the ‘70s have all died since 2016.
(RIP Eddie Miller, Bob Lazier, Bill Alsup, Herm Johnson, and now 43 years ago, Gordon Smiley, massive mentors all)
Again Sorry to wax…
So far as FF, Tony Stefanelli is a dynamo and Gift to the class and I suggest everyone supports his efforts.
As just an insider speaking from the outside, I could not agree more with this! Weren’t you and/or Jay Novak working on this concept before covid?Quote:
Originally Posted by S Lathrop
In my opinion, what’s missing is cross-class cooperation. It reminds me of the CART/IRL split, in focusing on proprietary thinking if not separatism until true defeat finally happened. Only now, 30 years on, has it recovered — and that’s a Pro deal with near-unlimited resources.
Hindsight may be 20/20, but perhaps it could benefit from sharper focus before becoming hindsight before becoming history before becoming regret before becoming tears in beers.
SCCA Club legends were built with rules via weight, power, and often induction to attempt equalization — and that’s gone on since nobody knew of anybody named Elvis.
Many or most won’t like it, but there’s F600s everywhere with nowhere to go, older “Fords” forced into vintage where — Sorry — the racing’s not as rabid overall like the Runoffs are or were, and then there’s an obvious Club preference for a brand that sure could be powering formula cars, and then we have two versions of a similar class and both are struggling while the first two above have already been phased out and collecting dust and spiders.
Sure, entry fees are high… but that’s greatly based on there not being enough cars. And therefore Steve’s idea of a $30K car would obviously help, as would dumping expensive tires and wheels and shocks and lightweight gadgets and other costs that only gain a few seconds.
The UK ignored the “trick bits” of the last point above, and look how they’re doing — with 20% of our population and an eighth of our GDP.
A little cooperation and equalization could build towards one amazing future — but Alas, we might have dinked around too long already.
I guess this is where we disagree and you and probably the folks running SCCA just don't get it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Olivola
The list is not for me, it's for promoting club racing and making the club seen by potential racers (aka members).
It's for removing the appearance that OW racing in the club is dying.
It's for promoting the club and bring more members out.
But you don't see it.
Here are some points specifically about participation:
- There is NO incentive for racers to spent more money going to Majors races when they are not going to the runoffs. Can you understand this point? ButtonWillow ST in February had 1 FC (me). The regional in March had 9. We are coming to events, just not the ones HQ wants or counts.
- If you want people that have no intention of going to the runoffs to run Majors and ST events, there must be some incentive. What is the incentive provided? It's not quality of racing - we get better racing promoted by our FC club (Pacific).
- "Sub-Clubs" like Pacific, Great Lakes, Southern, FCCS are bringing the cars out, but to do that we can't run at a Majors where someone MUST have a full comp license - nothing else accepted - and the costs are higher.
Yes, SCCA is a club - and they don't ask the members what they want. I get the annual "Are you coming to the runoffs" survey. NO. They never ask why. Apparently not important. They ARE supposed to "do for me" as a member but there is apparently more "do for a few."
Club racing is UNSEEN by the general public. There is NO promoting it. Yes, that is what we expect SCCA to do. I watch the TransAm series on TV. Mazda runs ads. SCCA doesn't. Hmm...
There was a post on Facebook by San Francisco region as an April Fools joke. It was about the runoffs coming back out west. It mirrors a lot of people's thoughts on the runoffs. https://www.facebook.com/groups/sccasfr/
What! I really hope is that your understanding of what I said and I am talking about driving on the track not bs in impound. When they show up and get in a customer car that maybe someone else did this or that they think that they will as well. I have been at this a long time and have found out from experience, that most likely won't be true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Olivola
As for us old farts, for me it took time and money to get and upgrade my car to a competitive level. I have also come to realize that if you are struggling and not a total moron, you might get sympathy from experienced drivers at least so you are not a danger to them. The help and advice usually ends when you start to threaten them ON the track by just being faster. Unfortunately, not everyone is a good SPORT when it comes to that.
Ed
If I were to have guessed further up this thread where you were actually going, this would have been it.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
My involvement in the world of advertising is way out of date and I'm sure someone reading this will have up to date information, but are you seriously suggesting SCCA spend membership money on TV advertising? Aside from the direct expense of placing the ad do you have any idea what ad production costs are? The resulting increase in membership and entry fee costs would make you scream like a stuck pig.
After think about this impound portion of this discussion, I think I might have realized what could possibly be happening. I was quite active at the local indoor go cart track, which was the Autobahn chain. Being a regular customer and I started to do the league races just for something to do. Well that really opened a can of worms between us experienced road racers versus the go cart people. Come to find out there are to very different rules or driving conduct on track. We in SCCA road racing were taught that it isn't your turn until fully alongside the car you are overtaking. That means front wheel to front wheel. Well go cart drivers think if the get the front wheel near in line with the other car rear wheel it is their turn and the car being overtaken must yield. My reply was how can I know there there when everything is fast happening and no mirrors.
So you might want to find out how they were taught to drive and what they consider acceptable. That could be what you are interpreting as bad behavior in impound.
Ed
In 2024 the HST had an impressive 1462 unique drivers. A driver can count their best 6 race finishes plus Runoffs towards the HST Championship. Effectively, a driver would have to compete in at least 3 separate HST events to contend for a top finishing position within the Series Championship. Interestingly, only 20% of the drivers who participated in the HST did so in 3 or more events. Conversely 80% of the drivers participated in only 1 or 2 HST events during the season. One might conclude from this that drivers are participating in HST races, but not because they are part of the HST Series. It is interesting to compare the percentage of FV and F6 drivers who ran in 3 or more HST events to other classes which remain as part of the HST.
BEST 6 HST RACES + RUNOFFS COUNT TOWARDS HST CHAMPIONSHIP
Whose bad behavior? In my experience, former Kart drivers are well aware of the differences, more so since we've added Appendix P.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Womer
Ed, I suspect what you described is an indoor karting phenomenon — which to be fair is not at all the same as dedicated karters in IKF, WKA, or SKUSA, and running their own equipment.
Pretty clear. There is a problem in that some classes with low participation can be combined with other similar classes easier than putting slow/fast open wheel cars together, so I understand it's not always as clear as it looks.Quote:
Originally Posted by John LaRue
The problem as I see it is removing classes from your "Super duper series" that have decent participation doesn't give anyone confidence that the SCCA will not just exclude the class from other events. Who wishes to invest in FF/F6/FV when they are being shoved aside?
A smart management team would look at these numbers and try to understand why the HST product is achieving such a low success rate, and how to make the offering more appealing to entice a higher participation level. After all, core concept is a nationwide championship... yet attendance is spectacularly low among drivers competing at that level.Quote:
Originally Posted by John LaRue
Of course, a typical American-style management team would instead look at this from the wrong end, for example coming to the conclusion that a very acceptable size pool of entrants are being spread far too thinly across too many "bins" - and if we could just concentrate and focus things down by externally restricting the number of classes, events etc, then the ratios would go up!
See what I did there?
I'd love to give more examples of just how badly this data could be misused to generate utterly unhelpful conclusions... but I just can't get my head that far up my nether regions to see that viewpoint.
Doesn't really matter to me; I've bailed, we've been sidelined and uninvited from the "Big Show" so it's all academic to me at this point - there are better places to go race now, SCCA just doesn't offer a worthy product any more thanks to thought processes like these.
That could be possible. I have grown up in central PA and am well aware that the few times I go to roundy round races it seems acceptable to get inside the overtaking car and muscle the way thorough. I don't think I have seen anyone penalized for that type of driving.Quote:
Originally Posted by E1pix
I have also seen on track even with drivers in their own car seeming not to care and will get mad at you for not just getting out of their way.
Check out some serious kart racing. Last 2 laps at 34:30.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Womer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJ6gdkQcnHU