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Hi All,
I am looking for anyone with a Caracal D who has put in Tilton brake/clutch assembly or something like that. Fred Clark says he has done a few but does not have any pictures on the installation. So if you have a setup other than factory VW brake and clutch pedals please let me know.
Thanks for the information.
R/--
Harry
FV#77 CFR
Harry,
I have the setup but not happy with it. But it works for now. Planning on making a new set of pedals over the winter. I think Bruce Rodman has a custom set also.
give me a few days to dig the car out.
ChrisZ
This is in my Caracal C if that helps.
Garry
ChrisZ and Garry,
Thanks guys for getting back with me.
Chris I look forward to seeing your setup and am wondering what issues you are having with your setup?
Garry, that looks interesting but am wondering what you are using for the brake and clutch pedal assemblies? Also a C car is much wider in the foot area compared to a D car. Still let me know how it all works for you.
One of the main issues i am having with my factory VW pedals is that for one they are tilted some because of the way they are mounted in the car. Both of the front frame rails are angled in to make the nose of the car narrower then the seat/engine area of the car. By doing this it angles the clutch shaft at an angle which means you have to heat and bend the pedals to make them fit. Also even with the "Big Boy” EXTENDED Length Clutch Shaft Kit installed I do not have the space to add a balance bar adjuster to the balance bar of the brakes. I even purchased the Tilton 90 degree coupler assembly and it still does not work as there is just not enough space to add the coupler.
Again thanks for everyone's help and please continue to post suggestions and pictures.
R/--
Harry
FV#77 CFR
Harry,
Here is what I have:
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...id=99999&stc=1https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=100000&stc=1https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=100001&stc=1
I wanted to mount the brake cylinders just ahead of the beam.
I made my own extension rods and tubes.
If I was going to do it again, and I might - I will make a bulkhead to bolt the cylinders to and just need the pushrods from the petal to the cylinders. Right now the pedals are leaned back and it gives most travel but is not the best for heel and toe - in fact the braking is toe and heel!
Two things I am considering is to scallop the side rails to give more room and then either move the pedals back or make my own.
BTW - I increased the height of the brake pedal - it should be at least the height of your shoe.
ChrisZ
ChrisZ,
Your setup looks interesting. What brand of pedal assembly did you use? You know Wilwood, Tilton, etc?
I would also like to keep the reservoirs in front of the beam if possible. Also would like to straighten out all of the pedals as they right now at an angle to the driver, so you have to bend the pedals to make them sorta right. As for heal toe, i will never be able to do that as my feet are to big for the pedal area right now. We will see how it all works out after I change to a different assembly.
Thanks for the great pictures.
R/--
Harry
FV#77 CFR
it is an old Tilton unit - looks similar to the 600 series they sell now. The problem is their 3 pedal setup is 10” + and the space is 9.5 to 9.75 where the pedals will end up.Quote:
Originally Posted by HB280ZT
if you go with the 2 pedal setup, you would have to fabricate a gas pedal.
I think I have some pictures of a Mysterian setup. The pedal box with is about the same. Let me find them.
chrisz
ChrisZ,
Looking at your pictures closer it looks like you are using standalone brake and clutch pedal assemblies. Also are you using one of Tiltons 90 degree adapter for brake bias adjustments? I was thinking about just keeping the gas pedal like Fred made it and maybe going with separate floor mounted Wilwood brake and clutch pedal assemblies. The only issue that I would have to really figure out was how to mount the clutch master. As I am currently using a clutch cable and the brake masters mount to a bracket welded to a lower crossmember. I am not sure if there is enough room to get the master around the brake mounting bracket. I may have to keep the clutch master behind the beam and the brake masters in front of it like I have now. Always a joy trying to figure out how to change things from the way Fred Clarke built them from the start.
R/--
Harry
FV#77 CFR
One of the great things but also worst things about FV is that most Formula Fords were done on an assembly line basis with lots of parts shared between models, FF, F2000 etc.
Formula Vees I have found leave some of the detail work up to the builder as you can personalize it, but you don't get the volume to perfect it...
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=100012&stc=1
Here is a pedal set up from a Mysterian - someone can chime in if this was a factory of custom set, but the idea of the masters on a bracket or bulkhead is much better.
I worked a lot with Crossle FF so I am partial to their simple set up (examples here). They have the bias cable come off the clutch side where you have more room.
I found this which has a bunch of interesting pictures. https://www.pinterest.com/pin/576601558511889399/
If you are short enough, it looks like this Tilton set up fits the masters behind the beam. but maybe with modifications.
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=100013&stc=1
ChrisZ
ChrisZ,
Thanks. The setup you found on Pinterest is actually a car I have been working on lately. It is the car that Allen Adderly built and Laura Hayes uses to drive.
A guy in the Orlando area bought the car and has had a lot of work done on it so that he can drive it. We hope to have it back on the track next weekend at Sebring.
So to make the Tilton 3 pedal assembly fit the D car Allen had to cut up the frame and the pedal assembly to make it all work. If I would have thought about this about a year ago I had my whole car torn down to a bare frame. I could have sectioned the frame like Fred did for his fat boy mod and added the pedals. But that ship has sailed and I do not plan on taking it apart like that anytime soon.
R/--
Harry
FV#77 CFR
This is my First car and the pedals are what I have in the FV chassis as well as the same set up between both chassis. Also the front of the frame outside to outside is 16". If you have a narrow chassis you will have issues with foot room.
Ed
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=100027&stc=1
Ed,
That is a very interesting setup you have there. Is that an FV or something else? Also can you give us a few more pictures from say front and back to really see what you have there? Did you make your own pedals? Thanks.
Also with the D car i think we are at something like 13" across the front of the car where my feet are located. So any 3 pedal assembly I would have to be hacked it up and the frame as well. So that is why I am looking at maybe individual brake and clutch assemblies.
R/--
Harry
FV#77 CFR
Here is the concept I threw together yesterday (of course the side view will need some work - some pedal will have to be modified to clear the balance cable).
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=100041&stc=1
I think I will steal Ed's idea for adjustment, but we used that on the Skip Barber Cars in the 80s.
At those dimensions - if your shoe is over 4" wide......that is why I was thinking of cutting out a section of the frame and putting in an angle to allow your feet to splay a little to each side.
On my old Lynx I had the "modified" VW setup and have to admit it worked pretty good - still carry the spare clutch cable even though the car is 30 years gone....
ChrisZ
Harry,
I'll mention this since no one else has.. it has been quite common practice in FV's for drivers with 'big feet' to buy SHOES that are one or even TWO sizes small. It might hurt a bit, but the additional room is worth it. You rarely need to spend more than about 45 minutes at a time in them anyway. KP Jones (RIP) used to wear BALLET SLIPPERS .. for all his years of racing vees.
As for the brake bias cable, in my Vortech, Rod (designer) added a 'crescent' in the gas pedal rod to arc around the adj cable. There is little force on the go pedal and it works quite well. I'm sure my foot box is more than 13", but not a whole lot. I'm confident that that pedal configuration is standard on any Vortech. I can post a picture later if that would help.
Steve, FV80
Steve,
Yes I would love to see some pictures of any setup people have. I remember reading about people wearing shoe that were smaller then normal to get more space in the foot box area and I am doing that a bit at this time. Also Harry Schneider (RIP) who I used to race with wore leather slippers instead of race shoes to get some feeling and space in his Adams. One of the many issues that I have is that even with a Tilton 90 degree adapter installed on either side of the balance bar adjuster there is just no room. I either hit the frame on one side or the clutch pedal on the other. Will post some pictures once I am back home as I am in Breckenridge, CO right now playing in the snow. Well not really as there is not enough snow to go skiing yet and my doctor would kill me if I told her that. Still recovering from shoulder surgery. Man it sucks to be getting OLD!
R/--
Harry
FV#77 CFR
Hi Harry,
When I get a chance I will take or look for some different views. Like I mentioned this my Womer EF-1 Formula First car, while I was assembling it a little over a year ago. Everything is exactly like in the Womer EF-3 FV, the only difference is when I make the front portion of the chassis the holes to bolt the ball joint beam are in a different location since that beam is slightly larger distance between the tubes.
Yes I do make the pedals and I think I have some in the parts box. The throttle pedal has a kink in it for clearance of the cockpit adjust cable for the brake bias. The tabs for the pivot point of the pedals are 1/8x1" strap steel that bolt to the frame and have three adjustment holes so you can move them forward or back to provide some adjustment.
Ed
Ed,
When you get a chance I would love to see some pictures of the pedals that you make for your car. Also any pictures that show the foot box area can only help me come up with a solution that I have. That is short of getting smaller feet or widening the foot box of my car. I really wish I would have done that the last time I had the car down to bare frame. If wishes were, near mind!
Thanks for the help everyone.
R/--
Harry
FV#77 CFR
BTW - the actual area between the rails on the Caracal D and The Mysterian between he frame rails is about 9.8" :eek:
When a size 10 shoe is about 4.25" you can see how tight it is.
My Citation is about 13" and if anyone has access to a Crossle 30 series FF, I would be interested in that measurement. They, like all Formula Fords of that age, had room for a clutch dead pedal! I think the Swift FF was the first of the really narrow FF pedal area.
ChrisZ
Morning All,
Well just got back and took a picture of the foot box area and it is 9" at the clutch shaft thru area and 9.5" at the point where the pedals are basically located. So all in all a very tight space to be putting size 11.5W shoes, but I am wearing size 10.5M shoes to race.
As you look at the picture you will see the Tilton 90 degree adapter for the balance beam. You can see that there is not enough room to the left as you would hit the frame and again not enough space to the right as you will contact the clutch pedal. Now the clutch shaft is lengthened by 3/4" with the longer clutch shaft and the clutch pedal still contacts the Tilton 90 degree adapter. So what to do. Again thanks for all of the help and suggestions.
R/--
Harry
FV#77 CFR
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=100050&stc=1
Harry,
Looking at your picture, the problem is really that the clutch mechanism starts RIGHT at the brake pedal. If you cut that clutch pedal off and mounted the bottom of the clutch pedal pivot on the left side rail ...like the gas pedal, you MIGHT have enough room. I think you would need to do a bit more reinforcement for the clutch than what is there (nothing) for the gas, but it still MIGHT work. That said.. you aren't REQUIRED to have a 'cockpit adjustable' cable attached to the balance bar. When I first installed a balance bar on my car (back in the dark ages) I didn't have a cable... I just had to come into the pits, remove the front cowl and manually turn it to reach the balance I wanted. It was better than nothing but, of course, doesn't address the situation where you NEED to adjust it 'dynamically' ... like wet conditions. So cutting your clutch pedal off and replacing it with one that pivots from driver's left is the easiest solution I see.
Another thought is ... is it possible to move that entire assembly towards the seat to give more width for your feet? You would need 'knee room' - not sure if it is available. Elevating the entire assembly is also a possibility .. if the toe of your shoes can still clear anything else that might be in the way -- or might not even require ANY change in your heel position. If it was elevated enough to bring the bias bar above the frame rail (an inch?), then you could run your cable from driver's right.
Lastly, the pushrods look (maybe) a bit tight on that bias bar housing. Make sure that it has enough freedom to be ABLE to allow the balance housing to be angled and still not bind up. AND (just in case), remember that the bias bar should be SQUARE with the master cylinders when the brakes are fully engaged.. NOT at rest. Generally the bar will be tilted at rest and will square up as the pedal is pushed.
Steve, FV80
With respect to shoes, and FV. Both when I was young and old, I wore leather moccasins on my size 13 feet. Ballet slippers (KP) would also work and I did wear those at one point when young. The moccasins need to be the type without soles, just leather. Then, position of the brake pedal is critical since you are pushing it with the unsupported bottom of your foot.
Steve,
Thanks for the information. I have been doing the brake bias the old fashion way for 6 years now and it makes the setup harder to work between the 2 tracks I mostly do, Sebring and Daytona. Also I have had the cable assembly in a box from when I purchased the car and would really like to include it as part of the car.
So on my setup, where to begin! The brakes are biased a bit to the front on initial setup. But I have always had the issue of when I get on the brakes hard the forward master cylinder dives in hard and the back master barley moves. I have replaced both masters a few time already, bled the brakes numerous times and tried pretty much everything I and others have told me to try. But still the front goes in easy 2 inches and the back just moves maybe 1 inch.
As far as the pushrods goes they are the same width as the input to the master cylinders. I should go check them again just to make sure something has not changed over time. Always fun!
I really cannot move the pedal assembly towards the driver as I am 6' 1" and my knees are bent pretty good to get myself in the car to start with. If I could I would like to move everything further forward to keep my knees off of the center frame hoop.
I have been trying to figure out how to make the clutch shaft longer then the one I currently run which is 3/4" longer already. I have an old clutch shaft and have thought about cutting off the cable end and using the bolt hole for the clutch pedal to somehow connect the 2 parts together. If I do that I can position the clutch pedal where ever I want on the longer clutch shaft. Now that brings up an issue as the one end is not supported so I would need to build a brace for the free end to better support the shaft.
There is also the option to go to a hydraulic clutch setup vice a cable one. The issue is where to put the reservoir for the clutch master as there is not much room next to the 2 brake masters.
As always, thanks for the information.
R/--
Harry
FV#77 CFR
Harry,
You just opened up a whole bunch of questions.....
First - I had problems bleeding the front (but not the back) of my car. What I did to get close is to take off the brake shoes and carefully c-clamp the wheel cylinders so they could not move at all - then bled the brakes - You should be able to get almost no pedal movement.
If you still get a lot of movement, using a short length of hose to the master and then bleed and block off the hose. You are basically hydraulically locking the cylinder. Still have movement in the rod then you have a master cylinder problem.
If not, then you probably have what I did - too much movement in the brakes at the wheel. The shoes may not be arced correctly for the drums or the backing plate is not right and you are getting flexing. You can prove this my making each adjustment as tight as you can and yet still turn the drum - you don't care if it drags. then see what your movement is. I found putting new shoes on made a BIG difference.
My cylinders are so close that the one brake and clutch almost have to be unscrewed like gears. One thing I have not considered yet, but many have converted to, is the Citation setup of having the cylinders back under your knees. as shown in one of the pictures here: https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/sho...-Citation-FV01
Takes a bit of work but takes the masters right out of the area. Then there is room for the clutch master and makes the plumbing a lot easier.
On the other hand - You can leave the bias bar as Steve has suggested and then put a bias adjuster in the rear brake line (like this https://tiltonracing.com/wp-content/...ning-Valve.pdf) I would guess you would set it to restrict the rear, then set your bias bar, so you could get more rear bias in the case of rain.
If anyone is using a system like this, can they chime in and let us know if you like it.
Last, if you want to keep the clutch cable which I am assuming you are using, you could put a universal on the shaft and extend it longer. or just weld an extension on it (actually a sleeve drilled for roll pins might be easiest) then you would need a stabilizing bearing, but that would allow you to make a clutch pedal more to the left of the brake bias bar - think along the lines of how the throw out fork is mounted in the tranny.
BTW - I have started using the SPA SFI 17.2 extinguisher as it is the size of the old Lifeline.
https://www.spatechnique.com/store/i...=1071&catID=41
ChrisZ
Setting the spacing on the bar should not be based solely on the separation of the MC/s. You HAVE to have enough 'freedom' around the balance barrel for the shafts to 'find their own center' during the entire travel of the pedal.. even after shoes have worn and the pedal throw is long. Make sure the worst case position (normally 'off pedal') allows enough side room for the balance barrel to NOT touch (with any force) the sides of the adjustment nuts. If you have to open the adjustment nuts a bit, DO SO - else you risk getting into a situation where the adjustment nuts HITS the end of the barrel and the forces on the MC/s will not be correct. That can cause your complaint of NEVER getting enough force on one end or the other. Again, make sure what when force is applied, the barrel should be square with the MC/s.Quote:
Originally Posted by HB280ZT
Second item. You can use a SINGLE reservoir to supply both masters AND the clutch if need be. You need to make sure you have good flow at the splits, and keep a sharp eye on your hoses, but it works just fine.
Steve, FV80
ChrisZ,
Have not had an issue with bleeding the brakes. Now that I have replaced both the masters and numerous wheel cylinders a few times but never really had an issue with bleeding the brakes. The reason that I want to use the balance bar adjuster is to fine tune the car for different weather and or tracks that we race on here in central Florida.
Steve,
Looking at the picture, it does look like the left side is resting against the balance bar tube. So I will go back and add a few more turns to the balance bar. Prior to my last master cylinder change the balance bar when braking hard would rest on the clutch pedal. Now that I have the clutch pedal spaced out 3/4" more on a longer clutch shaft the balance bar does not hit the clutch pedal anymore. Plus with having both master cylinders replaced it no longer dives as bad as it uses to. The pedal is a bit more uniform in that both masters do depress about the same amount but are not where I would like them to be.
I guess I really do not like the way the stock pedals function within the car. I would rather have pedals that were better fixed as the stock ones do flex a bit and are positioned at an angle relative to the driver. Now I have been bending the brake and clutch pedals to compensate for the angle of the assembly. But to me that is just putting a bandaid on the issue with regards to the angle and flex within the stock assembly.
So in reality I only have a few options:
1 - somehow move the clutch pedal out further (as suggested by ChrisZ) and brace the clutch shaft. (does not fix the angle issue)
2 - go to a different pedal assembly (fixes the angle and flex issues, but fitment now becomes an issue)
As always, thanks for the information.
R/--
Harry
FV#77 CFR
Based on the picture, I think that you need to adjust your balance bar push rod lengths in a different fashion. If you are setting them up in a static (resting) position, this will not work. The balance bar needs to be at a 90-degree angle (or close) to the pedal when you are hard on the brakes, not at rest. When this happens, the force applied to the master cylinders is based on the position of the balance bar. If the spherical bearing of the balance bar is perfectly centered, the force applied to the pedal is divided equally between the master cylinders. This is the purpose of the balance bar. If bar is not at the 90- degree angle, this will not happen. Keeping the bar horizontal, the clevises close to 90- degrees to the bar, and the clevises spaced the same as the master cylinders will all help. Adding an adjuster or new pedals might help with other problems you are having, or things you want to change, but will not fix this issue.
There are different combinations of master cylinders that are commonly used in FV, I had best luck with a .625 front and .7 rear, but others have had success with other combinations.
Larry Campbell
Larry,
So the way I setup the balance bar (as per Tilton instructions) was to first make both of the pushrods to the master cylinders equal in length and the balance bar is neutral in the tube. Also the master cylinders are 3/4" for the front and 5/8" for the rear and it is currently setup with an extra 1/4" of pushrod out for the front master cylinder. It is currently setup with about a 55-45 biased to the front. This is how it is setup static or at rest. The pivot sleeve on the brake pedal is relatively parallel to the mounting bracket for the 2 master cylinders.
I will have to go back and check the separation between the clevises is the same as the master cylinders, also the 2 pushrods should be parallel with each other.
Thanks for the information.
R/--
Harry
FV#77 CFR
Interesting = my cars run 5/8 front and rear (remember the original car had a single tube, dual port m/c) and the front wheel cylinder already has a larger cylinder for more braking pressure - so I am curious why you are running this.Quote:
Originally Posted by HB280ZT
Now I could see running 2 x 3/4 (or .7) as it would result in less pedal travel (with higher pressure required) which would maybe give more clearance before you would hit the steering....
Can you double check this?
ChrisZ
I believe what was being implied by the previous post is that you want the adjuster bar and master cylinder pushrods at a 90deg angle when full force is being applied to the brake pedal.... not at rest. Adjust the pushrod lengths to achieve this. Almost always the setting at rest will look different form the full force sitting on a FV.
Brian
I agree with Brian, that is what I was trying to say. My information comes from an old Tilton catalog. When they wrote the instructions you have, I don't think they were thinking about FV.
If you were setting up a formula ford that had equal master cylinders, 4 equal calipers, and 4 rotors close to the same thickness- then the "at rest" set up would probably work since all 4 corners would be equal. With FV, there are different wheel cylinders besides the different master cylinders.
I have never seen the larger MC being used for the front, with the smaller in the rear. If you are going to bias with the master cylinders, the small diameter goes to the front, larger to the rear. I never liked .625 front/ .750 rear but others have made that work. I know a lot of guys that used .75 front and rear because they liked the short travel of the pedal. Of course make sure you have the right wheels cylinders in the right place- as I recall- big front, small rear.
Larry Campbell
Larry,
The car originally came with 5/8 masters front and rear. Boy the braking was really messed up at that time. So after contacting Fred Clarke about this I was told by him to go with 3/4 front and 5/8 in the rear, he also provided me with the correct wheel cylinder part numbers and I replace them all. This made the car work a lot better but did not fix the problem with the balance bar diving to the front more then the rear.
The picture I showed you all was the balance bar at rest not with the brakes applied. Now if I showed you all a picture with the brakes applied they are not equal but just the opposite of the brakes at rest. So the balance bar dives more to the front then it does to the rear. Now to fix this issue I have replaced at least once everything in the brake system, both masters, all 4 wheel cylinders, all hard lines and soft lines, drums and pads. So what else can I do?
So I guess i have 2 different issues here.
1 - balance bar dive to the front.
2 - inability to use balance bar adjustment hardware.
Thanks everyone for the pictures of your setup please send me more so that i can better understand what everyone is doing for there brake and clutch assemblies. Plus thanks for the help fixing my brake issues.
R/--
Harry
FV#77 CFR
Harry,
Just so have a complete picture - what shoes are you running, front to rear?
Some people run Carbotechs all around, some just in the front.
There must have been something Fred picked up on in order to recommend that.
Thanks
ChrisZ
Harry,
I took a couple of pix of my car today. This is the pedal configuration at rest...
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=100139&stc=1
The center MC is FRONT.. rear is on the left (as viewed) and the clutch is on the right.
and this is the configuration with FORCE applied to the pedal
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=100140&stc=1
You can also see the 'crescent' in the throttle pedal to allow passage of the bias adjustment cable.
I use 5/8 MC/s for both front and rear ... and a 3/4 MC for the clutch (common fluid reservoir for all).
(Am currently CONSIDERING changing to 0.70 for both fronts to reduce the pedal throw.. but the brakes seem to work PRETTY WELL as they are, so .. haven't changed anything yet)
I also run CT XP8's on the front and Porterfield R4S shoes on the rear.
This is exactly how it came off the track following the Indy Runoffs this year.
The pedal throw is a bit long (~3") now, due to the wear on the front shoes. I probably started the race with ~2.5" pedal throw.
The shoes were all fully 'seated' and bedded in fully before the race. The front shoes wear significantly during a race weekend.. the rears are hardly ever adjusted. Almost ZERO wear for the last couple of YEARS.
AND.. I'm running DRUMS all the way around... I assume you are too. If you have any DISC brakes hanging around, that brings in a LOT of possible changes in MC/s and bias adjustments required.
Hope this helps...
Steve, FV80
PS [edit].. I should also add that I have significantly greater pushrod movement on the FRONT shoes than the rear. Even though I try to set the fronts to a CLOSER tolerance (tighter 'free' adjustment') than the rears. The front wheel cylinders are larger and take more fluid. The KEY factor here is to make sure that #1 .. you DO have brakes when you need them and #2.. there is NO DRAG from the shoes on the drum at ANY TIME *EXCEPT* when you actually have your foot on the brake pedal with an intent to SLOW DOWN.
I adjust the brakes on the fronts once or twice a race weekend (after setting them at home). The rears get (maybe) adjusted a couple times a SEASON... maybe just once.. MAYBE not at all.
However, I CHECK ALL WHEELS for brake drag after (almost) EVERY SESSION.
Lastly ... when I WATCH the brake bias bar, moving the pedal by HAND IN THE SHOP, it generally moves the REAR pushrod first as I apply pedal... THEN the front shoes activate. I presume this is due to the smaller rear W/C diameter. I have to admit that when I SLAM on the brakes on the track at speed.. I have NEVER watched the pushrods to see if one moves before the other.
Harry,
I was just looking at your pedal problem again and noticed something that I had not considered before. MOST of the pedal assemblies in this thread have the gas/brake/clutch lower pivots at the same point (front to rear). YOURS is different since the gas is closer to the driver .. leaving the brake/clutch together - a bit closer to the beam.
SO.. I see 2 considerations here.
1). Leave the gas where it is .. and consider ONLY a 2 pedal assembly for the brake/clutch.
THEN you have another consideration - clutch CABLE. Your setup apparently has the clutch cable run inside the frame tubing on the right side of the chassis .. or maybe OUTSIDE the frame tube?.. At any rate, to continue with a cable, you would have to get the clutch pedal mechanism on the left to somehow get to the right side of the chassis .. possibly using something like the current mechanism with an extended BAR - probably supported on BOTH sides - over to the right side. Then place the brake pedal lower pivot closer to the beam (to clear the clutch BAR) and then extend the top pedal surface on a 'screw post' similar to Ed's picture above to get it back to match the clutch .. or not - you might just leave the clutch closer or further away. No requirement to have them both aligned front/rear.
2). Keep in mind the gas but IGNORE it. Get your 2 pedal assembly of choice and 'figure out' a way to mount it for brake .. and then clutch (whether cable or hydraulic). Get that where you want it and then go back a find a place to put the gas pedal. The gas has the least pressure required and should give you the most flexibility. Note.. that your current setup has the gas pivot quite a bit closer to the driver than the brake/clutch.. and MY setup has the gas pivot closer to the beam - with the attendant 'crescent' to allow passage of the clutch bias cable.
Just more FOOD FOR THOUGHT :D
Steve, FV80
PS.. although I have SEEN that 'standard bug' pedal assembly used before, I could never imagine USING it in a RACE CAR. I remember the 'floppiness' of the brake and clutch in the street beetle I drove back in 'the day' - acceptable for driving in a SLOW MOVING street vehicle .. ONLY.
ChrisZ,
As for my setup I was asked drums or disc and that would be drums. Which shoes do I run on my car. Well in the past I have used Carbotech shoes front and rear. But now I am running Porterfield R4 in the front and R4-S in the rear. I raced them this past weekend on the short (club) course at Sebring Raceway. Now they did take a bit longer to bed in then the Carbotech shoes, but once bedded they worked as good as the Carbotech shoes. Just my .02 on the brand of shoes.
Steve,
Thanks for the information and the great pictures. Did you build your own brake pedals assembley?
Now that I have changed shoes did it change the operation of my pedal assembley. Well the answer is no. When I push the pedal the front master moves about 2 inches and the rear pretty much none at all, but the drums are rock solid all 4 corners and free when pedal is released. When we check the brake adjustmets between races they need minimal changes to stay within the setting we desire.
I have noticed 1 item that I am not sure if it will make a difference or not. Most people are running the master cylinders opposite to me, i.e. rear to the left and front to the right while looking down on the brakes from the front of the car. I do not think this will make any difference but you never know.
So I may need to take a small video of how the balance bar assemble is working under braking. Let me see what I can get my son to help me wiht on this one.
As for your 2 part considerations. I have been thinking about what you talk about in both of your concerderations and have not come to a conclusion on either as of yet. Still racing down my way so spending more time preping the race car then working on this issue at this time. Just finished a race and will be getting ready for the Turkey Trot on Sebring Long Course Thanksgiving weekend. Then I will have some time to really work this issue, but suggestions are still encouraged and wanted.
So if I go with a hydralic clutch setup where to put the master cylinder as there is limited space forward of the beam with my 2 brake masters or leave it behind the beam if there is space. To do this I could possibly use one of the off the shelf units from Wilwood or Tilton. Now if I go with the clutch cable setup I need to find custom parts to make that work. This is where I am looking to builder of FVs to see if what they are doing will work for me or not. It all comes down to wether or not the assemblies will fit within the frame rails on my FV where I need the parts to work. Also adjustablity of the brake balance bar is a must. Like I like to say Fun fun!
R/--
Harry
FV#77 CFR
"I have noticed 1 item that I am not sure if it will make a difference or not. Most people are running the master cylinders opposite to me, i.e. rear to the left and front to the right while looking down on the brakes from the front of the car. I do not think this will make any difference but you never know."
Should not make any difference.
I have Carbotech front on one car with stock VW on rear, other car is Porterfields all around, I did hand fit the later to my drums but have not taken the drums off to see how they broke in (one race)
I still say 2" of travel seems a lot. I had that when I first started on my Caracal. I will try and do a video on where they are now and upload.
ChrisZ
Morning All,
Well finally got the car back into the garage and took a few pictures of the brakes. As for how much the pedal moves it is more like an inch when you look at the picture. As you look at the picture the image to the left is at rest and the right is fully depressed. The master to the left is the front 5/8 bore and the one to right rear 3/4 bore. The picture shows that the front master moves about an inch and the rear hardly at all. I was asked if you just start pushing on the brakes do the front lock and the rear still move and the answer is yes they do. The current plumbing setup for the front is 3AN lines off of a dual banjo fitting to the wheel cylinders. The rear is a bit more complicated. It is a single 3AN line off of a banjo fitting to a metric hard line all the way back to under the transmission. Then is splits to a soft line out to the swing arms and goes back to a hard line into the wheel cylinders. So with all of that the car still brakes very well when on the track. So still not sure why the rear brake master barely moves compared to the front.
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=100275&stc=1
Thanks for the help.
R/--
Harry
FV#77 CFR
Harry,
As mentioned before .. several times... your bias bar is NOT 'square' to the MC/s under braking. You need to lengthen the front pushrod and/or shorten the rear to square that up.
That said.. the fact that the rear MC is hardly moving AT ALL, tells me that you probably aren't getting ANY measurable pressure on your rear brakes. I'd suggest that you go back on the rear MC at least to a 0.70 cylinder to increase that rear pressure. That alone might be enough to equalize the bias bar when the pedal is depressed.
However, that doesn't address the purpose of this thread. It still looks to me like you need to separate the clutch pedal from the "cluster" and hinge it on the left side of the foot box. In Bullet, I use a cable ... like you. The cable runs down the left side inside the frame rail to a pulley mounted on that left side rail just in front of the fuel cell. It then crosses underneath the fuel cell..[ I put a 1/4" piece of plywood under the cell... and cut a 'path' through it for the cable] .. to go to a second pulley ... mounted vertically underneath the clutch throwout shaft and the cable goes up the back side of that pulley vertically to the (now BENT ~90 degrees) activation arm. It has worked great for quite a number of years. Moving that clutch pedal should give you what you need to bring the bias adjuster off the left side.
And.. yes I did.. make my own pedals for Bullet -- but not for the Vortech I'm driving now.
Steve, FV80
Steven, thanks for the information. As for the balance bar not being square to the masters that is correct and by design. When reading up on the balance bar adjustment from the Tilton instructions, it said to square everything up and then make the front master threaded rod a bit longer then the rear rod, so that is what I did. Now if this is completely wrong please let me know?
Now I tried something yesterday to completely check the system. I first plugged the rear master cylinder to check out the front master first and it did pretty much the same as it usually does, i.e. the front went in and the back did not move. So next I plugged both masters and neither pedal moved which is expected. Next I tried just the front master plugged and the rear attached to the brakes and unexpectedly the rear did not really move at all. Now with the rear master not connected to the system and a short tube connected so that it would recycle the fluid it went in and out no issue. So that being said I inspected all of the rear lines and found nothing that would cause this issue, no bends or kinks. The rear lines as as follows:
- Banjo fitting on the master to a 3AN line for about 8 inches then adapted to a 3/16 hard line all the way back to under the transmission to a T fitting. Then flexible lines out to each axle tube to an adapter to hard lines again and into the rear slave cylinders. I checked to make sure that the rear slave cylinders are in fact the correct units and they are. As a side note all of the lines from the master to the rear brakes have been replaced within the last 2 years and this problem has been plaguing me from the time I purchased the car 5 years ago.
So what to try now? As always thanks for the help.
R/--
Harry
FV#77 CFR
I have no idea what you mean by a 'short tube connected'.Quote:
Originally Posted by HB280ZT
BUT... suggest you LOOSEN the adjustment on the rear brake shoes. You should be able to get measurable clearance so that they would need a lot more fluid before the shoes hit the drums. That should give you lots of 'throw' on the MC pushrod. If it doesn't, then.... I guess I would start there. You did say earlier that you can LOCK the fronts, but the rear wheels still move at that point. Not sure if that means the rears are "free" (NO BRAKES), or just that you can still FORCE the rear tires to move a bit.
"So what to try now?"
This may be too simple, but if the rear master cylinder is good and will not move under force and the rear brake shoes are not against the drums at rest, then perhaps your rear wheel cylinders are frozen. Cars that sit have this problem. My new wheel cylinders with fresh brake fluid (meaning low moisture) were frozen after sitting for one year.
The pictures indicate to me that the rear master didn't move at all, which indicates a hydraulically locked system.
While you may have other issues with the brake system, per Steve Davis and my original post on this subject, until you have the balance bar 90 degrees to the pedal when depressed, the balance bar is not working as designed. See the attached diagrams from Tilton Installation instructions.
98-1250-600-Series-Balance-Bars.pdf (tiltonracing.com)
I still believe that you have the master cylinders reversed, the smaller on should be on the front. I used .625 front and .7 rear, I also used .7 front and ,75 rear for less pedal travel.
Larry Campbell
.
Morning All,
As always thanks for the information. To start with I provided some bad information in an earlier post. The master cylinder setup I have on my Caracal D is a 5/8" master on the front and a 3/4" master on the rear. Sorry for the confusion.
From How it works portion of the Tilton instructions. "A common misconception is that changing the length of the master cylinder pushrod will alter how much force each master cylinder sees, or that it will decide which master cylinder builds pressure first. This is not true." Yet that is what it looks like in Diagram D with the one master to the left having a longer rod length compared to the other rod. Agree or not? I will even out my pushrod lengths when I get home tonight, but it will change nothing with respect to how my system is working incorrectly. Have tried it with no change to the outcome of pushing the pedal.
To set up the balance bar, thread each pushrod into its respective clevis the same amount. Sometimes this will lead to a “cocked” balance bar when the pedal is in the relaxed position, “no pedal effort”. This is acceptable as long as each master cylinder pushrod is completely free of pressure when the pedal is relaxed. (From Wilwood instructions)
When I adjust the balance bar it does not change the angle of the balance bar with relations to the master cylinders, like in the picture. The only thing that changes the angle to match diagram D on my car is to lengthen the rod on one master, like I have it now. The master closer to the throttle pedal is the front master and it has its rod adjust a bit longer.
No matter what I do to the system, when I push the pedal it will always look like diagram C never even like B. So from what Tilton says this is incorrect. This is what I am trying to fix. That and a need to update my pedal assembly so that I can use a Remote Brake Bias Adjuster while on the track and maybe a hydraulic clutch vice a cable operated clutch. I could have used the ability to change bias the other day at the track as it was raining and I could have used less front bias in the rain.
Trying to figure this all out gives me a headache. Yes my car does really good on the track but I know that the brakes are not working the way they should, possibly costing me time on the track.
R/--
Harry
FV#77 CFR
Harry,
It just shows how complicated a "simple" brake system can be and how little things can throw you off.
It seems like you have hit most of the big items. Having the 3/4 on the rear is better and why there is almost no travel, but might not be the optimum set up - but hold that thought for now.
I would take the front drums off - put C clamps on the wheel cylinder and check the pedal travel. It should be virtually none. If not it could be a loose connection allowing air to get in, it could be a bad brake line that is expanding under pressure*, it could be a bad master, or just air in the line that does not want to come out.
*especially if the car had a history of a front accident
I am thinking it might be that your shoes are not properly seated to the drums. The drums could be beveled, the shoes might not be arced correctly, the backing plate might be bent, wheel bearings loose, etc.
Tape a piece of 100 grit sandpaper to the inside of the drum using double sided carpet tape. Then use a magic marker to draw a line on the face of the brake shoe and lightly move it back and forth across the sandpaper - if the mark goes away evenly, then the show if getting good contact. If it is only on the middle or ends, the show is not fitting properly (sometimes you can see this visually without the sandpaper).
I will not get to my car until the end of the week, but as everyone is saying, the angle on the bias bar is not right yet. But at this point we have to figure out why you still have a lot of travel on the front brakes.
My 2 cents
ChrisZ
Your issue sounds like the brake bleeding complications I have every winter re-assembling my car after upgrades. One of the circuits will have a bubble in it that will not come out. Acts just like what you have been describing. Just my thought on the subject. I waited until all other options were discussed to say anything.
Do not ask me how to get the bubble out. I have a well sorted brake system, so I can tell instantly when there is a bleeding issue.
Brian
Morning All,
As always, thanks for the information. So to give you all more information concerning my current setup. I recently had all 4 drums turned and new brake shoes installed. As stated before I am running Porterfield R4 in the front and R4-S in the rear and they have been bedded in and worked very good on Sebring Club Course a few weeks ago. Like others I have had brake bleeding issues but have figure out a trick that helps with that. Most people pump and hold the brakes after 3 or 4 pumps. Well I have learned on my car that it takes as many as 10 pumps to get the air moving out of the system.
Now talking about the balance bar position when brake pedal is depressed. Are you all suggesting that I adjust the brake rod lengths on the master when the pedal is depressed so that I get the desired balance bar 90 degrees to the pedal?
So enough about the balance bar. I am still looking for ideas of how to update my pedal assemblies from the stock type VW pedals. I currently use the clutch cable setup on my car, but I am not against updating to a hydraulic setup if need be. The major issue with the Caracal D car is the small pedal area, about 9 inches. So putting something like the Tilton 3 pedal assembly in the car requires just a bit of cutting of the frame rails as it is 10 1/4" long. However, the 2 pedal or individual pedal setups that Tilton or Wilwood provide could be an option. Would like to see other peoples setup be it custom or off the shelf, pictures are requested.
Again thanks for the help.
R/--
Harry
FV#77 CFR
Harry,
Have you had any luck with your pedals? I saw an ad for a FF Spectrum today (on this site) with a picture of the footwell and what is likely a custom pedal setup .. probably in about the same width footbox that you have to work with. You can see it at
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...9&d=1637880071
or go look up the ad.. but this is the only pic of the footbox.
From this pic, you can see that the clutch pedal has been modified at the top to move the pedal contact point forward so that the base pivot can be far enough behind the brake pedal to clear the brake bias adjust cable.
Steve, FV80