Time to rethink tire choice ? - R60 Bias Ply ??

Ok. This will be very interesting but got to probe it.

We have been on the radial for 6 years now and so there should be lots of data to draw on. I'll keep this short and simple.
From my experience and memory, we decided to go with a spec tire to help with budgets and frustration with always having to juggle numerous compounds, which was a good idea. BUT - tire cost and number of cycles has not stood up to promises. So thinking about all the different tires I've run on over the last 25 years or more, I think the Hoosier R60 bias ply tire will work better to serve the original goal. Cost and performance.

That should be enough to see where everyone stands.


Look forward to any and all responses.

I know there are people that think FF has to be on radials to be relevant.

If FF goes back to the bias R60 they would be common with many CFF series, so us CFF drivers could crossover and run Nationals if we wanted.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dave Harmison

I know there are people that think FF has to be on radials to be relevant.

If FF goes back to the bias R60 they would be common with many CFF series, so us CFF drivers could crossover and run Nationals if we wanted.

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I think the good ship "Relevance" has already sailed...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by flagman

Ok. This will be very interesting but got to probe it.

We have been on the radial for 6 years now and so there should be lots of data to draw on. I'll keep this short and simple.
From my experience and memory, we decided to go with a spec tire to help with budgets and frustration with always having to juggle numerous compounds, which was a good idea. BUT - tire cost and number of cycles has not stood up to promises. So thinking about all the different tires I've run on over the last 25 years or more, I think the Hoosier R60 bias ply tire will work better to serve the original goal. Cost and performance.

That should be enough to see where everyone stands.


Look forward to any and all responses.

---

Well, the club racing radials cost me as much as the R45 & R35 bias plies we used to run and I get triple the usable heat cycles on them. I've gone from having to buy new tires every weekend to doing 2-3 weekends on the same set. If I do 6 weekends a year I save about $3,200 on tire costs on average. Overall the radials have exceeded my expectations as far as performance, cost, & durability.

If we go to the CFF tire, I've got to change the geometry again (which for me at least, is relatively simple. Older cars not so much). Then I've got to toss my gearing. I sold off all my old gearsets when I made the change in 2015 so that's at least $2,000 in gears I've got to toss out. Then I have to start from scratch on setup because the CFF fronts are a different size from both the R45's I ran and the compound is different. I may end up having to buy springs and I'll have to spend about $3,000 to $5,000 for extra testing to get the car setup working again. So I'm looking at hours of extra work, north of $5,000 in extra expenses, and my incentive is what, exactly?

Are the CFF tires only $450 a set mounted? Are they going to last me 24-32 heat cycles? Even if they do both of those things I'm looking at 10 years before I make the transition costs back. So, no. Hell no.

I'm confused--don't the Hoosier radial and the bias-ply use the same compound? R60A? Wouldn't they have the same competitive heat cycles?

Greg

Avon and Hoosier treads. Same tires as vintage (which in case anyone wondered, it’s where all the cars are). One tire for rain or shine, one set lasts many weekends, lightweight, and way more fun to drive on than the radials.

What I like about the FF spec radial is the consistency in diameter. What I don't like is the different diameter spec rain tires they gave us.

I like the current tire. It could be better, and it would be nice if rains matched. We took pole at the Runoffs this year on tires that were on their 5th cycle, (over 2 hrs) so performance fall-off is outstanding!

in RCFFS, competitors can use the radials or 60A bias. As mentioned, the tires are the same compound. Competitors have similar performance, and buying frequency, so there appears to be no reason to go through all the trouble of switching the spec to the bias. I see only downside, and no upside in that change.

I would have preferred the Toyo option, but after 6 years, I believe the best choice was made. The Hoosier radial is just an outstanding tire!

Greg,

As stated, Same compound , same buying frequency and I agree radials have been good tire. But if I can have all that plus save $200 a set. Why not? This is really where I'm coming from. Price creep has really dampened my enthusiasm. Approaching $1000 is a bit stiff with only getting 8 good cycles. Originally it was $700 and told 15 cycles. Granted, some racers put many cycles on tires but not if they want to run up front.

I'm seeing the following prices at http://hoosiertirewest.com

Radials:
185/60 43322 $205
205/60 43327 $205
Set of four: $820


Bias:
20x6 43130 $159
22.5x7.2 43307 $190
Set of four: $698

Savings: $122 or 15%


Greg

I have a note from 2015 that shows Hoosier Midwest sold the radials for $191 each. Today, its $203. That works out to a little more than 1.5% YOY inflation. Not bad in my book.

Chip

i plan to run some california based FFTS events, and i will only run those because of the option to run the biasplay, if i "had to no other choice" run the radial, i wouldn't bother with SCCA.

time are changing , relevance of SCCA FF is changing, getting more cars means grabbing or cross pollinating with the "vintage" groups, who for the most part are on the hoosier treaded bias play. when i rac SCCA on the r60 biasplay the only thing i did was swap tires and adjust the front spring perches a turn or two... and that was it. and honestly i very much prefer the r60 slick bias ply and assuming i can keep doing that would like to run more with SCCA and less with vintage. i also think focusing on "nationals" is limiting, not enhancing the SCCA value proposition for regional drivers.

thats my .02c. has the radial pumped up the grid counts? or not? ...because at the end of the day that is the only reason for making spec decisions.

Why not allow either the Bias Ply or Radial Tire and let drivers choose?

I race my Crossle in Vintage, Regionals, and SuperTour/Majors. Three different tires with major setup differences both suspension and gearing have to be changed for the same track.

If SCCA wants more entries, allowing more flexibility on tire choice of radial/bias ply (assuming the R60 compounds are truly the same between tires) seems like a good move.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by flagman

Greg,

As stated, Same compound , same buying frequency and I agree radials have been good tire. But if I can have all that plus save $200 a set. Why not? This is really where I'm coming from. Price creep has really dampened my enthusiasm. Approaching $1000 is a bit stiff with only getting 8 good cycles. Originally it was $700 and told 15 cycles. Granted, some racers put many cycles on tires but not if they want to run up front.

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I think that any topic worth fighting a civil war over, should be a topic that will have a big impact. With respect, going back 2 decades in technology, to save $122 per set, is not worthy of that battle. That is the cost of one night in a hotel room. Whatever the next spec tire is, it should be a significant cost savings or philosophical difference. Of course, the current spec tire could be better, but it is a very good tire, and certainly not “broken”.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by halcyon

Why not allow either the Bias Ply or Radial Tire and let drivers choose?

I race my Crossle in Vintage, Regionals, and SuperTour/Majors. Three different tires with major setup differences both suspension and gearing have to be changed for the same track.

If SCCA wants more entries, allowing more flexibility on tire choice of radial/bias ply (assuming the R60 compounds are truly the same between tires) seems like a good move.

---

Vintage participants weren't entering SCCA events prior to the adoption of the spec tire. Why do think they would do so if the spec were dropped now?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by halcyon

Why not allow either the Bias Ply or Radial Tire and let drivers choose?

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Because then it's not a spec tire.

It makes as much sense as specifying a tire and then allowing people to use other tires during the season.

because times are evolving and i, and others, are "tweeners" and running both. the radial, is a full stop issue to participate in both. making it a one or the other proposition.

imo - it has nothing to do about tire costs, and has everything to do with capturing car counts that prior, the SCCA proposition was not compelling to run with, and start making it compelling. aka - not have SCCA on an island of its own.

thats why i say if SCCA migrates off its "runoffs" obsession and starts to focus in its respective regions, there are cars and drivers out there that are hungry for well organized race weekends with quality drivers. i can't imagine the uptick in CA is a fluke because of this exact change.

i like the earlier suggestion to allow the radial and the bias ply. just have two classes by tire then? whats so hard about that? it is working out well here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Olivola

Vintage participants weren't entering SCCA events prior to the adoption of the spec tire.

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Some were. In fact, the very poster you were responding to was, and stated such.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fitfan

because times are evolving and i, and others, are "tweeners" and running both. the radial, is a full stop issue to participate in both. making it a one or the other proposition.

imo - it has nothing to do about tire costs, and has everything to do with capturing car counts that prior, the SCCA proposition was not compelling to run with, and start making it compelling. aka - not have SCCA on an island of its own.

thats why i say if SCCA migrates off its "runoffs" obsession and starts to focus in its respective regions, there are cars and drivers out there that are hungry for well organized race weekends with quality drivers. i can't imagine the uptick in CA is a fluke because of this exact change.

i like the earlier suggestion to allow the radial and the bias ply. just have two classes by tire then? whats so hard about that? it is working out well here.

---

Is this describing regional racing in California? If so, the decision on creating a place for vintage racers to run in other locations regional programs exists already at the region level. No need to change the spec tire program at all.

Rocky Mountain Division has had multiple FF classes in place for several years, one specifically designed to allow any tire. No reason other divisions couldn't do the same, but that doesn't require the GCR to change and could be easily and quickly adopted if a region or division wanted it.

Sam (raceworks) said it all! Ditto!! John FF69

Quote:

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Originally Posted by problemchild

going back 2 decades in technology

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That's just a red herring. Technology shouldn't matter. Betamax was better technology than VHS. All that matters is cost/vs performance and participant acceptance.

Not sure why this came up again, but the real problem for racing, in my situation anyway, is trailer and RV storage. I can put the car in a 3 car garage, the tires last a long time now, but the money drain really comes in RV purchase, fuel, and storage. If I move, I can't replace my RV garage, and at my age, 95 degrees on Atlanta's black asphalt, without the RV air conditioner, would likely cause heat stroke. The clean bathroom is pretty important too,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Olivola

Vintage participants weren't entering SCCA events prior to the adoption of the spec tire. Why do think they would do so if the spec were dropped now?

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The Spec tire is good thing but not if it sends typical SCCA competitors to Vintage.FF is cost effective once you have capitalized the equipment.The new Hoosier vintage tire is an exceptional value considering cost and lifespan.The tire also equalizes many chassis that were not competitive on the old slicks.The radial we run in SCCA is also a great tire and is cost effective but it has made many competitors that would normally run SCCA run Vintage. It is simply not true that the entry numbers are better since the Honda and a spec tire were introduced.The Vintage tire would an excellent tire for SCCA in my opinion.Then a crossover from Vintage to SCCA would be probable.

These days we'd be happy to be able to buy anything for a 13" wheel...

While not perfect, the Hoosier radial is a great tire and is still the most viable option in my view.

Personally, I'd like to see the Hoosier vintage tire be the spec tire. One tire for all conditions is a strong selling point. For the privateer, that's less wheels, less tires, less needed space in the trailer. Also, I like how the vintage tire squirms, slides, and recovers compared to the radial. That's how a FF is supposed to handle. However, I don't see FRP following suit. It's best for the class to keep a common tire between FRP, SCCA, and any other sanctioning bodies. I can't see FRP going to a "vintage" treaded tire. It's not the look parents want or think they should have for Junior. I don't agree with this, but I know some people think it needs to be a "real" racing slick.

If FRP is open to the vintage tire, then I am all for it and would bring my car back out should SCCA change as well. However, I don't see that happening.

Reid, just come on out and play Vintage with us when you can.

The current radial tires hold up well!

I don't know why we don't have everyone on the same tire. I think all of Europe and Australia are on Avons. Why aren't we? They seem to work, and you don't need rains.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by problemchild

I like the current tire. It could be better, and it would be nice if rains matched. We took pole at the Runoffs this year on tires that were on their 5th cycle, (over 2 hrs) so performance fall-off is outstanding!

in RCFFS, competitors can use the radials or 60A bias. As mentioned, the tires are the same compound. Competitors have similar performance, and buying frequency, so there appears to be no reason to go through all the trouble of switching the spec to the bias. I see only downside, and no upside in that change.

I would have preferred the Toyo option, but after 6 years, I believe the best choice was made. The Hoosier radial is just an outstanding tire!

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Greg, I have run a couple of RCFFS races and it becomes painfully obvious that the radial tires are much slower than the CFF bias ply tires. Cars/Drivers that I was 2-3 seconds/lap faster than in the East-West Challenge series are now a second a lap faster than me. I cannot get back to the lap times that I turned on bias ply tires at most tracks (without repaving).

Most braking points are backed up 20-30 feet due to the added weight and inertia of the radial and the reduced braking capability due to the high static camber settings. I am constantly destroying radials due to lock--up flat spots trying to brake anywhere close to a bias-ply shod car. The radial also does not respond well to trail braking, which means the corner entry speed needs to be slightly lower than what the trail braking bias ply tire will allow. The differences actually becomes a safety issue as the bias-ply cars are not anticipating the radial cars to brake as early as they need to.

The increased weight and inertia also plays a part in corner exit acceleration as the radial cars cannot accelerate with the bias ply cars, regardless of gearing and powerplant.

I personally hate the radial tires. They take away much of the visceral feel that makes the FF cars so fun and enjoyable to drive. On-board video shows that cars never look happy on them, big understeer or big oversteer, but rarely do they look balanced.

What I personally would like to see in an FF tire:
- Keep the same 185/60-13 / 205/60-13 tire size as that is the tire size that most of the cars were originally designed for.
- Keep the R60 compound to extend/maintain the usable tire life beyond 8-10 heat cycles.
- Go back to a bias ply construction to regain the vehicle feel and response, again what the cars were originally designed for.
- Reduce the weight by eliminating the steel belt construction or whatever it is that makes the tires so damn heavy.
- Same changes for the rain tires.
- While the rain tires are not the exact same size as the slicks, they are far closer than the bias ply rain tires and slicks.

Now, will Hoosier or any other tire constructor make such a tire. No. Can we ask, yes, but they still will not do it. Bruce Foss from Hoosier is actually quite proud of the FF radial tire and is oblivious to any complaints about them. I told him it was a main reason for so many FF drivers are jumping from SCCA to go vintage racing. It has me reconsidering my racing plans for this year and the future.

I usually don't chime in on a topic that has been thrust upon us and waaaay above my pay grade.

Many of you make good points, I have raced for many years, I have even raced on the spec. FF Firestone tire.

Greg Rice and a few others have made a good point, that the present spec. Hoosier tire is a good tire.

I have not been able to make the spec radial work for me, but like Jonathan Lee correctly points out " maybe I was unable to adapt "

especially with the amount I race in retirement.

Since 1986 I have run on many brands and compounds, even the Toyo spec. tire.

Swiftdrivr " Jim" and his 01. 07. 22 @ 5:21 post, makes a good point.

Lastly on a political note:

I have raced in SCCA since 1988, It is beyond me why our car counts are down the past 15 or 20 years, but they are, and to all you guys blaming it on tires and the Honda engine, stop!
I sent my feelings to SCCA on the Honda question when asked, I was not in favor to go to the Honda for selfish reasons.
I was getting on the back nine of my serious racing life, and was not about to put that kind of money out.

So lets be honest to guys the saying they are switching to other CFF and FF series, you guys are going to where the car counts
are.
I am a CDN boy racing in SCCA since 1988, and have made some long lasting friends, but I to am thinking ( not because of possible border closures ) that I might go race in Ontario in the Toyo series....why you ask, car count and one tire.
A 20 to 25 car field at Mosport / CTMP. or more seems to be the norm.
Yep I am going to get my but kicked, but with that kind of car count week in and weekend out...surly I will find someone to race with and have fun, and that's what its all about for me these days

Regards
dave
Vector FF

Quote:

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Originally Posted by McGinnis

So lets be honest to guys the saying they are switching to other CFF and FF series, you guys are going to where the car counts
are.

Vector FF

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That is exactly why I considered going vintage, but unfortunately, they don't run much in my area [ VIR / Road Atlanta / Roebling Road ]

SVRA at:
Charlotte March 17-20
Rd ATL March 24-27
VIR Oct 6-9

Quote:

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Originally Posted by swiftdrivr

That is exactly why I considered going vintage, but unfortunately, they don't run much in my area [ VIR / Road Atlanta / Roebling Road ]

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Those tracks comprise our (Vintage Drivers Club of America) entire schedule!

VDCA:
Roebling - Feb. 12-13
VIR - April 1-3
Roebling - Sept. 3-4
Road Atlanta - Sept 17-18
Roebling - Dec. 9-11

Quote:

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Originally Posted by McGinnis

I usually don't chime in on a topic that has been thrust upon us and waaaay above my pay grade.

Many of you make good points, I have raced for many years, I have even raced on the spec. FF Firestone tire.

Greg Rice and a few others have made a good point, that the present spec. Hoosier tire is a good tire.

I have not been able to make the spec radial work for me, but like Jonathan Lee correctly points out " maybe I was unable to adapt "

especially with the amount I race in retirement.

Since 1986 I have run on many brands and compounds, even the Toyo spec. tire.

Swiftdrivr " Jim" and his 01. 07. 22 @ 5:21 post, makes a good point.

Lastly on a political note:

I have raced in SCCA since 1988, It is beyond me why our car counts are down the past 15 or 20 years, but they are, and to all you guys blaming it on tires and the Honda engine, stop!
I sent my feelings to SCCA on the Honda question when asked, I was not in favor to go to the Honda for selfish reasons.
I was getting on the back nine of my serious racing life, and was not about to put that kind of money out.

So lets be honest to guys the saying they are switching to other CFF and FF series, you guys are going to where the car counts
are.
I am a CDN boy racing in SCCA since 1988, and have made some long lasting friends, but I to am thinking ( not because of possible border closures ) that I might go race in Ontario in the Toyo series....why you ask, car count and one tire.
A 20 to 25 car field at Mosport / CTMP. or more seems to be the norm.
Yep I am going to get my but kicked, but with that kind of car count week in and weekend out...surly I will find someone to race with and have fun, and that's what its all about for me these days

Regards
dave
Vector FF

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Dave, we would welcome you with open arms in the Toyo series. You are correct, there is ALWAYS a race to be had there, and we're most often well above 25 car fields. And the camaraderie in the paddock is beyond reproach!

cheers,
BT

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gary Godula

Greg, I have run a couple of RCFFS races and it becomes painfully obvious that the radial tires are much slower than the CFF bias ply tires. Cars/Drivers that I was 2-3 seconds/lap faster than in the East-West Challenge series are now a second a lap faster than me. I cannot get back to the lap times that I turned on bias ply tires at most tracks (without repaving).

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I have found it possible to get the same lap times out of the radials as the bias ply on my Crossle 45f, but it is a ton of work. It required several test days and many many hours on the scales fine tuning the setup. Camber is critical, and you may need to modify the suspension to get as much as you need for the radials. While I can turn the same lap times, the car is more difficult to drive on the limit on radials even with the setup optimized.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by halcyon

While I can turn the same lap times, the car is more difficult to drive on the limit on radials even with the setup optimized.

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Some people would say that was a good thing!

Some people will say that is a bad thing, blame the tires for their uncompetitiveness, and quit.

Winners, losers, whiners, quitters, racers ..... that is racing.

With spec tires and the equality of engines, I have never seen the class as competitive. We all race for different reasons, but I would rather go to a race with 15 entries and the top ten within several seconds, than go to a race with 30 cars that have 15 seconds of laptime variation. In a best of both world scenarios, I am expecting to see some 30 car F1600 fields this year with the entire field within 4-5 seconds.

I agree with those who have said the spec Hoosier has been a good tire compared to previous, and Hoosier is wonderful company. However as noted by others above, I think the Toyo would be an even better option and I propose we make that happen. We ran a couple races in Canada on the Toyo's and it is a better match to the car and to the spirit of the class in several ways. Frankly I was blown away by how smart of a choice it happens to be:

1. The racers up there get a full season out of one set of $700 tires. We run my son twelve to fourteen weekends a year which is $6,000 to $8,000 in Hoosiers. A $700 tire budget would allow is to run several more races per year, or make my wife happy.
2. Same tires wet or dry!!!! So much more room in the trailer, and the budget, and no set up changes on the grid to deal with that last minute rain shower. In Canada, they typically carry one spare tire and wheel with them. We carry two sets of drys and two sets of wets (old for a drying track, new for true rain) to cover an SCCA weekend.
3. The cars move around and slide around like a FF should. Much more entertaining to drive and to watch. This is much better for driver development.
4. All the sudden throttle control matters. It's like bolting on 25 Hp.
5. Took us four sessions to figure the tires out - it was not difficult to accomplish.

We need to make this class much healthier. Those who live in the east are treated to the FRP series, but its a long way to go for a lot of people in this big country of ours to get decent FF fields. We need the SCCA to put some effort into getting the class healthy again. Given that this is a club organization - that means us. When I was a kid we had 30-50 car fields at all the nationals. And they were great races people wanted to see. The cars danced and slid which drew people off the sidelines into cars. Today's tires don't like the kind of slip angles that draw out the "I have to do that" excitement. Plus a $1,000 every couple weeks is not affordable for the young person, young family, or most people.

So, what do I have to do to get this rule change moving? I have time available to put into it.

The last thing we need is another tire change just for the sake of change. I would never support it, and if it went thru, I might leave the class for good. Leave it alone.

I also would never support a rules change from someone who doesn't use their name on an open forum.

Ok, here's my name. I agree with everything about the Toyos and think they would have been a good (better) choice, but also agree that rules stability has value. More importantly, unless you race in the Canadian Toyo-sponsored series, finding a set to buy can be difficult these days.

I agree that changing just to change is a waste of time and effort. I'm proposing the change since it will have significant benefits to the class. Given that our family approaches this as do it ourselves club racing (not paying a prep service (which has value, its just not our approach)), it will save 1/3 of our budget while making the cars more fun to drive and watch.

That's meaningful. And likely meaningful enough to get more people off the sidelines and on the track. Or at least help the currently active people do a lot more races per year.

If we are rehashing FF tires a full 3 months earlier than past years (did y'all get some early snow or something?), then I am a strong advocate for the Hoosier VFF tire. It's a ton of fun - it talks to you and likes to do some nice slides that are easy to catch. No need for rain tires and they last just about as long as the Toyo, but far faster. And - you can actually get your hands on a set. Toyo has some real bad supply issues, worse than most. An autox friend of mine said he and several others are putting in tire orders now to Toyo for next year. Some people never got their tires for this year.

Reid when you right you are right.The VFF tire is great for vintage and great for any FF.It will equalize many older chassis with the newest chassis making SCCA FF financially more affordable.The also are extremely durable and reasonably priced.

I am building a rf97 and plan on running the car with vintage groups and only plan on putting the Hoosier Vintage tire on it . I think it’s a good equalizer. I ran it on a rf88 and I thought it was fun plus I believe the tire was easier on the car.

Greg






QUOTE=reidhazelton;634819]While not perfect, the Hoosier radial is a great tire and is still the most viable option in my view.

Personally, I'd like to see the Hoosier vintage tire be the spec tire. One tire for all conditions is a strong selling point. For the privateer, that's less wheels, less tires, less needed space in the trailer. Also, I like how the vintage tire squirms, slides, and recovers compared to the radial. That's how a FF is supposed to handle. However, I don't see FRP following suit. It's best for the class to keep a common tire between FRP, SCCA, and any other sanctioning bodies. I can't see FRP going to a "vintage" treaded tire. It's not the look parents want or think they should have for Junior. I don't agree with this, but I know some people think it needs to be a "real" racing slick.

If FRP is open to the vintage tire, then I am all for it and would bring my car back out should SCCA change as well. However, I don't see that happening.[/QUOTE]

I'd like to start with an "I was wrong".

A couple of months ago I posted a lot of positives about the Toyo's having run one race on them in 2019. Well we ran them again a couple of weeks ago, and we learned a lot more about them. We did four test days on them prior to the event this time - which we did not do in 2019.

The big learnings was that they are only at their best for possibly five sessions. That is not any more than we get from the Hoosiers (usually seven or eight). I was previously under the impression via paddock talk with competitors in 2019 that they would last a whole season. But we used three sets to do the four test days and one race weekend - and we really needed at least one more set to do all that time properly. So I apologize to the community for spreading bad information.

Plus, they are not a fun rain tire. One of the race weekend days was wet the whole day and the braking grip is such that you really have to be extra, extra patent in the braking zones. Takes some of the fun out of the experience.