ScoreBoard: Zetec vs. Pinto vs. Pinto (LR)

Sept. 11, 2020.
When different engines have gone head to head..............
Somewhat at the request of others unnamed, somewhat to satisfy ongoing collective curiosity and then gaining insight into the ongoing engine (and weight) discussions, somewhat to allow engine builders to see results, somewhat maybe only fueling more of a fire................

I propose this thread be a ScoreBoard for Readers to post a note of what engine and where and when there was a 'engine vs. engine' Victory as:
Zetec or Pinto (which cam & alum. or iron head) or Pinto (Long Rod).
It need not have been your victory for you. Frankly it might be nicer if who the Driver was is not mentioned.
Please post the Win(s) be it SCCA or Vintage or whatever. You need not post which Sanctioning Body's race it was.
Please no AutoCross results, duplicate posts, one car Class, apologies or excuses.

And since I've started this thread on 9/11, let us never forget the brave SCCA Workers who were on their way to RunOffs aboard Flight 93 / Pennsylvania :checkered:

Results:

Zetec - Daytona (2) Aug. 2020
Pinto LR - Sebring Sept. 2020

Comparing wins by engine is completely useless data. Williams and Mercedes use the same engine in F1, for example.
Perhaps you can also note whether it was a Saturday or Sunday race and which phase the moon was in.

If you want data, talk to engine builders with dyno data.

I will post the minimum corner speeds from our recent PIRC Super Tour event, and if we do the Runoffs, I will also post those minimum corner speeds. This is data that Pinto drivers can use to compare with, and see what the newer, developed, well-driven cars (which are Zetec powered) are doing to generate faster lap times.

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Originally Posted by problemchild

Comparing wins by engine is completely useless data. .

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Disagree.

Would I bet my life on a decision based on this data, absolutely not. "Completely useless", no.

Personally, I would find it interesting. Are there other variables like skill, preparation, track demands, etc. etc., yes, but I would still find it interesting. For example, as I consider my engine: regular rebuild? add long rod? swap to Zetec?... if the "data" over time that some short rod Pintos are faring just fine where I want to race, then that data is useful to help me decide where to spend my money...

In F1, Renault powered McLaren has scored 98 championship points and Williams-Mercedes has scored zero.
Clearly, the Renault engine is better and the Mercedes engine is uncompetitive.
No other conclusion can be reached by studying this data.
So why would McLaren be switching to Mercedes power next year?

Lincoln was shot on a Sunday. Regan was shot on a Monday.
Using this data, one would conclude that the President is more likely to be killed in an assassination attempt on Sunday than Monday.

I ate chocolate ice cream in August and vanilla in September. Clearly, based on this data, eating vanilla ice cream results in fewer hours of daylight.

Have to agree with Greg on this. The bigger problem is that people will look at this and think there is validity or value in it, there isn't. The only real, comparable info comes off the dyno.

If you wanted something interesting, put a Pinto in the back of a top car / driver combo - Allaer-Dixon-Tomasi-LaRue-Minor - and see how it shakes out the end of the year. Would be interesting but still not valid for making any decisions.

Just so many fail to the effort these guys put into developing and driving their cars and how much difference that makes that they think it's the engine, it's not. These guys would win no matter what was in the back of their car.

So far.............thanks for fueling the fire. I never said it would mean much and, of course!, there are so many other variables too. So thanks for the thinking.
But if people will actually post what I'm asking and [as an example only] after a long time we all see that XYZ has wayyyy more wins than ABC....well then well all see that XYZ has more wins.

(I look at the cloud and I think see a dog and others look at the same cloud and see a frog or an engine block or a Picaso)

Maybe I can get someone to post data, that's all I was asking.....but that 1st Amendment sure does make Life interesting

Score to date: 2 - 0 - 1.

Is data from multiple engines (multiple pinto and multiple Zetec to get reliable averages) by same builder on same dyno even available?

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Originally Posted by Bill Johnson 42

Have to agree with Greg on this. The bigger problem is that people will look at this and think there is validity or value in it, there isn't. The only real, comparable info comes off the dyno.

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Agreed.

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Just so many fail to the effort these guys put into developing and driving their cars and how much difference that makes that they think it's the engine, it's not. These guys would win no matter what was in the back of their car.

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Yes and no. Yes, these folks are putting a ton into their efforts and are making fewer mistakes than most. However, anybody that's had a great bullet in the chamber and a decent bullet in the chamber can attest to, even if quietly to themselves, the engine makes a bigger difference than our egos would like to acknowledge.

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Originally Posted by EricP

Is data from multiple engines (multiple pinto and multiple Zetec to get reliable averages) by same builder on same dyno even available?

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For over 2 decades. various engine builders and Series have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars running Pintos, Zetecs, and Mazdas to determine fair BOP values. The problem is that when people don't like those BOP values, they counter with anecdotal input, conspiracy theories, and "fake facts" accusations. How much do you think Bob Wright has spent making sure engines in his series were "balanced"? Unfortunately, the CRB caved to the "win tally" argument and made a recent adjustment based on politics rather than data.

I am sure Steve, Logan, Sandy, or Erik could provide all the info without even checking their notes ..... but that info is discarded by many for anecdotal tales and resentment for SCCA decisions made decades ago.

So, maybe everyone throws $50 in or a sponsor steps up to have one builder build two engines to spec to compare on same dyno? That would be most interesting. I’m sure there’d still be second guessing but it would be most interesting.

Here are some real numbers that pinto powered drivers can compare to for PIRC and M-O. Minimum corner speeds.
Zetec powered FC Citation on spec Hoosier radials (PIRC 2020 spec, M-O 2019 spec) and 115hp F1600 car on spec Hoosier FF tires. The driver in the FC car at M-O was good but first event in the car. The other driver (FC PIRC and both F1600) is very good, although in his first hour ever driving the FC car. As the drivers were getting up to speed, in both FC cars data, the car setup was generic, and not optimized.

PIRC
FC 140.7s ...... FF 146.8s
1 87.1mph 80.5 mph
3 71.3 64.5
5 66.6 62.5
7 81.1 62.6
12 76.3 70.8
17 57.0 54.4

Mid-Ohio
FC 124.4s .......FF 129.9s
1 100.0mph 93.7mph
Keyhole 56.2 54.1
Madness (LH) 56.4 52.6
Thunder Valley 73.4 71.3
11 96.2 87.6
Caracel 59.1 56.9

I hope this provides some insight.

Note: the forum software removed all my carefully spaced margins and columns. in each row, there is the corner, then the minimum FC speed, then the minimum FF speed.

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Originally Posted by EricP

So, maybe everyone throws $50 in or a sponsor steps up to have one builder build two engines to spec to compare on same dyno? That would be most interesting. I’m sure there’d still be second guessing but it would be most interesting.

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Not really. That builder can't/doesn't build two same spec engines that will perform identically on the same dyno.

Greg, not arguing with your data. Just asking: (1) are you certain your PIRC turn 7 data is accurate? (2) GPS speed or wheel speed? (3) sampling rate please?

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Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman

Greg, not arguing with your data. Just asking: (1) are you certain your PIRC turn 7 data is accurate? (2) GPS speed or wheel speed? (3) sampling rate please?

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Good point Daryl! Yes my "data" is really just a glorified anecdote. I noticed that particular anomaly after I had closed that screen, and moved on. I expect that was a clerical error (rather than gps glitch) but everything else looked as I expected. I think that will be a good tool to help people see where they are losing or gaining speed. I apologize for the poor quality of my so-called "data".

It is also interesting that a car with smaller tires, no wings, and a 30+ hp deficit is only 5-6% slower in lap time. Does that make "win tally" scoring more or less useless?

I'm off to eat some chocolate ice cream as I have a lot left to do today. Cheers!

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Originally Posted by problemchild

It is also interesting that a car with smaller tires, no wings, and a 30+ hp deficit is only 5-6% slower in lap time.

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And cars with about half the HP, even smaller tires and only two useful trans ratios are less than 13% slower in lap time. Makes win tally even less useful.

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I'm off to eat some chocolate ice cream as I have a lot left to do today. Cheers!

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Check your calendar, it's a vanilla month ;)

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Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman

Check your calendar, it's a vanilla month ;)

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Chocolate made for more daylight though.


While I will not make a habit of posting track data on a public forum, I will certain exchange data with anyone that would like to.
Please contact me directly.

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Originally Posted by problemchild

While I will not make a habit of posting track data on a public forum, I will certain exchange data with anyone that would like to.
Please contact me directly.

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On that note, I'll edit where I quoted your data just in case you decide at a latter date to remove your post, it won't still exist in mine.

I guess I will be the first to actually answer the original post.

NWFC results from 2016-2019 (Car count on these races are 7 to 22 car fields)

Weight spec
Zetecs 1240lbs - Pintos - 1190lbs

Zetec's - 39Wins
Pintos - 1 Win (2017)

*Note* I could only find 2 races where the top pinto finished outside the top 5 so they where there and somewhat competitive.

Zetec's are the easier motor to drive as the extra torque makes your mistakes less costly than the Pinto and since 95% of us are just weekend warriors doing this for fun that is the biggest advantage.

I can throw some info in here after last weekend at Buttonwillow as well.

There were two of us in Pinto powered FC's. I had to add 10 lbs to make minimum of 1200 lbs, the other Pinto had to add 30 lbs to make minimum. 3 or 4 Zetec guys, I am not sure what they did to meet 1220 lbs.

My Pinto is a 5.7 rod motor and the other Pinto is a 5.0 rod motor. Both built and dyno'd at the same facility. The 5.7 rod showed a little better numbers on dyno. I qualified like crap, so I was pretty far to the back which proved a great place to be on this start. A car towards the front went pretty swiftly into the rear of another and you could see two large pieces of front wing thrown high in the air. Being in the back allowed me to avoid all the flying debris... SCORE! During the race, I was able to make a couple passes and was keeping an eye on the other Pinto car and could see that I was making up some ground on him. He had engine problems and had to retire early. Bummer.

As far as competition amongst the Zetecs, I traded places a few times with one of the Zetecs. The other two Zetecs looked just as nice sailing past me on the track as they did while their crew chiefs were prepping them prior to the race. OMG !! I am a back marker! This sucks, I don't want to be a back marker !!!

I was on Hoosiers, the other Pinto on Avon, the Zetecs... I don't know. In the west, Avon and Goodyear seem to be preferred. So, it was probably one of those.

So what solid data can I report for this thread?
1) I need to drive faster somehow.
2) The 5.7 rod vs 5.0 rod : if your motor is being rebuilt and you don't know the age of your rods or pistons, putting the engine back together with those parts and NOT upgrading doesn't sound very logical to me
3) By attending this event I was able to see some racers that I hadn't seen in quite some time..... WIN !
4) I do almost all of the prep, mechanics, and set up on my car (that does NOT mean I am any good at it), my car started and finished every session..... WIN !
5) The most important piece of data I can provide is this: I had FUN sweating my butt off at this event AND I had FUN driving my car. WIN !

Correct me if I'm wrong - I don't think the data for 2016 to 2019 is of note here for the ScoreBoard as the Long Rod did not exist during some of this time......but I do thank you for posting something other than blah-blah-blah-1st Amendment. And CGOff had a LR Pinto but Zetec took the win (?)

So recent ScoreBoard is: Z 3 - P 0 - LR 1

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Originally Posted by EYERACE

And CGOff had a LR Pinto but Zetec took the win (?)

So recent ScoreBoard is: Z 3 - P 0 - LR 1

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Gray (CGO) failed to mention he was beat by Armington and Swanbeck - both running 5-7 seconds a lap faster.

https://racehero.io/events/us-majors...lts/1073744429

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Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing

Gray (CGO) failed to mention he was beat by Armington and Swanbeck - both running 5-7 seconds a lap faster.

https://racehero.io/events/us-majors...lts/1073744429

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I hope you're not suggesting that 5-7 seconds a lap is a result of the difference in engines.

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Originally Posted by Peter Olivola

I hope you're not suggesting that 5-7 seconds a lap is a result of the difference in engines.

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No. I'm suggesting it's not a valid comparison.

:D

Z 5 - P 0 - P(LR) 1 .........as of today and begun around early August 2020

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Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing

No. I'm suggesting it's not a valid comparison.

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I don't need the 1st amendment to point out that there is nothing valid about the so-called data being collected on this "scoreboard". Gray's comments are probably the most valid info presented so far.

who said it was a "valid" scoreboard? ....it's merely a scoreboard

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Originally Posted by EYERACE

who said it was a "valid" scoreboard? ....it's merely a scoreboard

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Exactly!
Oranges 27, Apples 54,786.

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Originally Posted by problemchild

I ate chocolate ice cream in August and vanilla in September. Clearly, based on this data, eating vanilla ice cream results in fewer hours of daylight.

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Incorrect logic, Greg. It would need a second stage for a conclusion to be drawn, eg.

1) I ate chocolate ice cream in August and vanilla in September
2) There are fewer hours of daylight in September than in August

Conclusion: Vanilla ice cream is more likely to be eaten by me when there are fewer hours of daylight.

In all seriousness, I hope someone reports when someone with a pinto beats one of the top-10 FC or F2000 teams in a heads up fight (without the 50 lb handicap some regional series are offering). That will show that that team has stepped up their program enough that some study of the engine performance and artificial weight adjustment has some merit. I expect Derek can get to that level, but there is a lot more involved than in FF, so I don't know how long it will take, or if a father-son operation can ever get there.

For those of you intent on exercising your 1st Amendment.........and pointing out this or that...........as in > fueling a fire......

Please go back and read the first paragraph of my initial post that began this thread.

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Originally Posted by EYERACE

For those of you intent on exercising your 1st Amendment.........and pointing out this or that...........as in > fueling a fire......

Please go back and read the first paragraph of my initial post that began this thread.

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Originally Posted by problemchild

I don't need the 1st amendment to point out that there is nothing valid about the so-called data being collected on this "scoreboard". Gray's comments are probably the most valid info presented so far.

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For some reason I think my comment about Gray's account was misunderstood.
Please re-read posts 19-23.

I was responding to EYE's "And CGOff had a LR Pinto but Zetec took the win (?)"

My point was the result in Gray's account had almost nothing to do with the engines and everything to do with the drivers.

Peter asked for clarification "I hope you're not suggesting that 5-7 seconds a lap is a result of the difference in engines."

I responded "No. I'm suggesting it's not a valid comparison." Again meaning the drivers involved had more to do with the result than the engines. I didn't want people to conclude the Pinto LR is 5-7 seconds a lap slower than a Zetec. But apparently people jump to conclusions when reading an isolated post. But that's the world we live in.

I really couldn't make sense of the posts that follow. All I can think is my comments were misunderstood.

Whatever...

I will throw out some more info on this thread to allow the Pinto vs. Zetec debate to continue ad nauseam.

If you are so shallow as to only be concerned with whether a Pinto or Zetec won, here is your answer: John Norton in a 99 Zetec turned faster laps than my '97 Pinto and finished the races ahead of me as well as the other Pinto cars which were entered in this event. There, if you are happy to read what you were expecting to hear, you are free to stop reading now, and go back to watching Teen Mom on the television!


For everyone else, I will put out as much information as I have and present you with what 'Gray's gut feeling' is about parity. Full disclaimer, there is very little science involved in my 'gut feeling'. But, there are plenty of skinned knuckles, grease under my fingernails and beer in the paddock with other FC drivers, and emails to arrive at my conclusions. I am trying to remain open minded and not have a biased opinion on the Pinto/Zetec debate. Rather than allowing my thoughts on the debate to be swayed by what I read on the internet, I am attending events, having fun, and attempting to make my own decision based on my own personal results. First, let me introduce you to the cars in comparison and their owners:

John and Mark, 1999 Van Diemen Zetec. Their motor is on its second season (hours, I don't know) Both of these guys have been preparing and driving Continentals for at least a decade and this '99 was an entrant a few weeks ago at the 2020 Run Offs at Road America.

Gray Fowler, 1997 Van Diemen Pinto. Motor has 38 Weber and 5.7 rods with 13 hours on this build. For this event I had put on a more modern diffuser and the rear wing assembly from late model cars. Presently all other body work and nose/wing are as the car was designed. Ohlins TT44 shocks. I started messing with Pinto FC cars about 5 years ago. Total years working on and driving FF and FC is just under 10. I have been racing club events in AZ and Vintage events on some of the more 'famous' tracks. For 2020 I got an SCCA license and have been able to attend one event with SCCA so far.

Just by reading about cars and drivers... what would you expect the result to be? What car and driver would you expect to be faster? Right! I come up with the same conclusion as you, the idiot in the yellow '97 probably isn't much of a threat!!

I looked back over our results as posted on Race-Monitor and this is what I found for single fastest lap whether it be in a Qual or in the races:
John: 2 : 18.7
Gray: 2 : 22.0

http://www.race-monitor.com/Results/Session/7078216

If anyone reading this has not driven at COTA, it is a little over 3 miles and in the FF last year I would go through all the gears twice on every lap. This year in the FC I was going completely through the gear box 3 times per lap. There are very high speed sections so aero matters, and there are tighter turns where your mechanical grip matters. Correct gear selection is important because every one of your gears matters. It is one of the longest circuits that I drive, but I find myself to be 'busy' in the car everywhere except on the back straight. But, I am even busy there trying to push the gas pedal further forward, or making a quick adjustment to brake bias. If you can't tell, I LIKE COTA. I think it is a fantastic driving experience and I will take my hat off to the people that designed that place. My only recommendation is that those same people need to work with the city planners on the roads which lead up to COTA because those roads are continually under construction and they SUCK !!

Enough about COTA and back to the Pinto Vs. Zetec. There is a 3.3 second split between the fastest laps that either of us turned the entire weekend at COTA. Both of our cars were on Hoosier R35B bias ply tires. Do I think my Pinto was horribly outclassed by the Zetec... NO! Let's be realistic here and say that John has been in FC longer than I have, has raced SCCA much longer than I have and is probably a better driver than I am. His car is a bit more modern and probably at the moment has an aero advantage. Since COTA has 3 high speed sections and one of them is quite a long high speed section, how much could an aero advantage have with regard to lap time? Do I think that with some possible aero improvement on my car and driver improvement that a 3.3 second lap difference could be cut down do 0.0 seconds? YES. Do I think if a 'rock star' driver was in my car last weekend and someone who is not a clown like me set up my car for this driver that it could have outrun John's car? Probably !! Again, I will say there is very little 'science' involved in me coming up with these assumptions. But, do I feel like I have enough data to keep trying to improve my car and driver? Absolutely!!



John and I run against each other at INDE Motorsports Ranch in Arizona frequently. His car was a good bit quicker than mine the last time we were out there. Since then, the track has been resurfaced and my understanding is that it is freaking awesome. A company that has done other tracks in the west were used to 'smooth and resurface' the track. There is a race event at INDE next weekend. After talking to John at COTA he may be at this event and we will have a chance to put the Zetec and Pinto in battle against each other again. INDE is a different type of track than COTA, so what kind of results do I expect in a race against John there? I expect I will be out run by a different margin. Both my car and John's will be prepped the same way for INDE as COTA with the exception of gear changes. But, neither of us will have time to do significant performance mods to the car. Let's say that John out performed me by 5% at COTA. I expect to be outperformed by 6-7% at INDE. This will be due to what Gray thinks is a difference between how a carburetor motor accelerates and how a fuel injected motor accelerates at this race track.

Everyone can feel free to 'flame me' as they see fit because I feel that a fuel injected motor probably has better mid range torque than a carb. Bring your science, bring your data, and tear me up, I am OK with that. My ego will allow me to be corrected as long as I can believe whatever crap it is you are trying to sell me! I think it is fair to say that some circuits are better for cars with better torque. Some circuits are better for cars with better top end HP.

This brings me to my final 'gut feeling'.... Indianapolis. I have two weekends on this track in 2017. Do I have any fear of running this Pinto on Indianapolis against the Zetecs? F - - - NO! As a matter of fact, I think after the COTA weekend, I am more excited about it. But my car and driver need a bit of tuning up before then. Also, I am not putting my name on any of the 'Yeah, I am coming to 2021 RunOff' boards because of my work. I don't know whether I will be able to attend or not. My employment interferes with a bit more than half of my life and presently I am scheduled to be at work during 2021 RunOff's. After running against John on a track where aero and HP are larger factors than some of the tracks out west, I have a desire to dump more money into the car changing something, and go at it again.

Gray,

I spoke to John while he was at the COTA event. He was running on his used Hoosiers from the runoffs and he was running Road America gears. Also the track record for COTA from what I got on the internet is 2:16.174 set in 2013. Bottom line is there are so many variables in racing that it can blow your mind.

I'm glad you are running and want to come to the runoffs at Indy. It will be a great event and everyone should come out for regardless of car age, ability etc. Bottom line if we get 35 or more cars there will be someone to race with.

Brian

Rob Allaer set the track record at COTA last February in the mid 2:11s on avons. Peter Gonzales and I were slowpokes in the 2:15's on FRP spec Hoosier radials running a Radon/Zetec and a VD/MZR respectively. From personal experience learning that track yields time gains in the seconds, not fractions of seconds.

IMHO, the only motor comparison and equalization is on the dyno, period. There are way too many other factors on the track.

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Originally Posted by Bob Wright

IMHO, the only motor comparison and equalization is on the dyno, period. There are way too many other factors on the track.

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While I agree with 90% of that statement, like different classes of cars make lap times differently (which we all complain about), the P and Z make power differently. The power curves just don't match. The Zetec has a much more 'forgiving' broader power band.

The problem really is the difference between carb and injection.

And sometimes they can't be made "equal" only race-able. A carb and an injected motor will never be exactly equal any more than a 1600cc motor can never be equated to a 2000cc motor, but they can be close enough to work on the track in most cases. You can either have a formula class or a spec class.

Z6 - P0 - P(Lr)1

Custom-painted helmets-6, factory painted helmets-0, factory unpainted CF helmets-1

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Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman

Custom-painted helmets-6, factory painted helmets-0, factory unpainted CF helmets-1

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ahhhhhh ........ that’s what happened. Thanks Daryl. I was thinking that we needed a rebuild, but that is a much better option.

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Originally Posted by problemchild

ahhhhhh ........ that’s what happened. Thanks Daryl. I was thinking that we needed a rebuild, but that is a much better option.

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Shhhhh. Of course the professional engine builders will never tell you that's the true speed-secret, they have a vested interest in you believing otherwise. ;)

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Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman

Of course the professional engine builders will never tell you that's the true speed-secret, they have a vested interest in you believing otherwise. ;)

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In FRP F1600, unpainted carbon helmets won 11 of 18 races. Some one should do an engineering study to find out why painted helmets are required for success in FC but not F1600. Perhaps we could get the FC garage queens back out if we have a rule change allowing Pinto drivers to use painted helmets and Zetec drivers must use unpainted helmets. I will send my letter in today.

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Originally Posted by problemchild

In FRP F1600, unpainted carbon helmets won 11 of 18 races. Some one should do an engineering study to find out why painted helmets are required for success in FC but not F1600. Perhaps we could get the FC garage queens back out if we have a rule change allowing Pinto drivers to use painted helmets and Zetec drivers must use unpainted helmets. I will send my letter in today.

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Unpainted carbon helmets won 9 of 12 FRP F2000 races, so we need to devise a more complex model to accurately capture the performance impact of helmet paint.

What about wrapped helmets? Not paint.
:D

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Originally Posted by Brandon Dixon

Unpainted carbon helmets won 9 of 12 FRP F2000 races, so we need to devise a more complex model to accurately capture the performance impact of helmet paint.

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I think this requires proper study. An uninformed outsider might consider this irrelevant or even conclude that winning semi-pro drivers are more likely to spend resources on performance and safety items than cosmetics.

If I only paint half of my helmet would that be an exercise in the 1st amendment or merely sarcasm ?

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Originally Posted by EYERACE

If I only paint half of my helmet would that be an exercise in the 1st amendment or merely sarcasm ?

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Geez - I guess it is your thread to make a mockery of - what was the point?

Instead of painting my helmet I just used that money to buy another set of tires.

Rob Allaer
FC #52

Turkey Trot results added.......

Z 6 - P 1 - P (LR) 1

............and none of the helmets were painted if I remember it correctly.....but some in the other Classes were painted but I don't remember which or what colors