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Fed up with $800 race tires that wear quickly & $650 entry fees?
We have started a new series with a spec tire & wheel that uses a current FV to bring back lower cost racing.
Our first event is Thursday September 6, 2018! This is the day before the 55th Birthday Party.
Please visit DriverzCup.com for more info. :checkered:
Got my attention. I currently don't have a Vee nor live in the region, but I am planning to both move to SC and buy a Vee in the next year or two.
Though, I would have liked to seen a stickier spec tire. There's plenty of 200TW tires, even some 100TW tires, that stay competitve longer than a day or weekend like Hoosiers.
Are the tires open for discussion? I really don’t understand the reason to introduce a different wheel and tire package compared to the Challenge Cup. There’s already 30-40 people invested in that package and it seems like a big step back to now introduce something different. Not to mention you potentially lose those 30-40 people that have already made the investment (myself included). I’m not going to purchase another set of wheels and tires. Which is a shame because this is a good initiative otherwise.
Chris
We chose not to use the very tall and heavy tire wheel combo to have faster lap times because this tire is only 1/2" taller than the slick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Elwell
The price is also considerably less.
So, if you ever go to an SCCA Vee race, you will have to buy a set of race tires from Hoosier, as that is the only available tire to race, and you have to have rims too. You will spend $800 just for the tires to be delivered, mounted and balanced. For less money, you could have the wheels & tires that last a year or more. Besides, I think they look better and have no runout.
The logic makes sense behind the choice but as Chris said none of the challenge cup guys are going to buy another set of wheels and tires when they already have a good proven set.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Bruns
All this does is limit your market rather than if you used the challenge cup tires you might get some guys to come down. The taller tires may slow the cars a bit but it's all equal when everyone is on the same tire. Providing another tire/wheel combo does nothing but further divide FV around the country.
Brian
It does not limit it at all. If anyone wants to play from up north, we can simply add a Challenge Cup class. Our entry fees are not anywhere near what Challenge Cup are. Everyone that has tried them, gave me nothing but positive feedback.Quote:
Originally Posted by B Farnham
I do believe you would spend more on a single race than what these cost. I just skipped the Florida races and Voila', I had the money.
We also have sponsor opportunities that we would never get otherwise.
I'm definitely interested in driving south for this from WV. However, having just spent the budget on Challenge Cup wheels and tires, I'd be really, really open to discussing wheel/tire parity between the two series which I feel could lead to improving the health of Vee racing instead of us fracturing it even more.
Can we hear more about the performance difference from the folks that tested them compared to Hoosiers? More in terms of laptimes, heat tolerance... instead of longevity. I think we can all agree any modern performance street tire, with our car's weight, will survive no problem for a season or two.
The newest Falken Azenis RT615k+ has a 200 treadwear rating and is actually surprisingly soft. The Toyo Proxes T1R are rated at 280tw. This leads me to believe the Falken may actually be a softer compound, potentially offsetting the performance difference from the "taller tire"? How significant is the impact of a slightly taller tire?
Also, In recent years I've observed the street tire war and explosion in the national autocross scene. It became common knowledge to be suspicious of the manufacturer's treadwear rating practices due to the fact that they were competing to be the hot tire in national solo/prosolo street touring classes, all requiring a minimum 200tw tire. I've seen surprisingly good performance from the Bridgestone RE71-R, BFG Rival S and Nexen to name a few. These all stamped with the 200tw rating, and I suspect with Falken trying to stay relevant, I don't see why they haven't caught on to cheating the treadwear rating. :meatball:
One thing that happens with the Challenge Cup tires is the Draft is huge and opens the passing
like the hanford device did in Champ Cars.
With good racecraft a regional engine can get to the lead pack.
So what's the tire, what's it cost and how long does it last...?
Quote:
Originally Posted by grapefarmeral
"Please visit DriverzCup.com for more info."
Looks good.
$258 bucks off the shelf at tire rack for a set. And nice looking wheels on the car.
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires...um=855VR5T1RV2
And free "road hazard" protection.... :)
I don't think a separate Challenge Cup class is what he meant... the point is there are cars not in your class again. Diluting the field.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Bruns
Are there extra prizes? Giveaways? Giant free parties? What tracks are you at & what groups are you with? How many days & minutes of track time?Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Bruns
There is a TON of extra stuff that the entry fee gets you, not to mention we are at the big (read: expensive) tracks, often with the FRP Pro series. If you did the same, your fees would be the same. Same as someone trying to compare a FVCC weekend with a normal MARRS series race.
I do like the 15" wheel/tire idea, as that is something I pushed for right along in FVCC (believe me, we personally even bought/tested a 15" setup for FVCC). That being said, we aren't that much slower than a normal FV, and often our lead pack runs over the slick pack anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Bruns
You mention price... I see the tire is $65 compared to our $90, but what about the wheels?
Don't get me wrong... I love more folks are doing something proactive, but even with the inexpensive package, this does not entice me to travel down to race. A standardized FVCC tire setup would have.
I applaud the Challenge Cup for doing their own thing and showing us the success it can be, however, the disc brakes will not fit the 14" wheels. Disc brakes will be legal in 2019. Current kits will not meet track requirements. Others & I have designed a set of disc brakes that fit both the stock rims with legal track, and therefore, this new wheel.
Due to the 15" wheel, there were less choices of tires, however, this ultra high performance tire worked very well for me, is inexpensive & readily available.
I was 2.5 seconds slower with the Toyo tires than Mitchell Ferguson was on slicks at CMP (Carolina Motorsports Park) during one test. I was 4 seconds slower than.him at RRR (Roebling Road Raceway-no shifting), but never spun or got loose. Anyone who knows me, would be surprised.
The plan was not to run at expensive tracks just for the money. I can have fun racing on any track.
No commitments. We have no fees. You don't have to join anything. Lots of track time because we are the only class as of now.
That being said, we plan on breaking into at least 2 groups based on lap times. One idea floating around is to always have A & B groups with last place in group A going to group B & first place in group B going to group A. It is just an idea.
If vintage Vees want to come play, they could could have 1 or 2 groups. All this is based on interest.
This from Tire Rack:Quote:
Originally Posted by BLS
Using tires in competition or on a track negates it's warranty, but manufacturers will make exceptions case by case if they feel the issue isn't something that should happen even exposed to a track environment.
I’ve had a blast testing these tires. They kinda have the same feel as the Goodyear tire we used to run. Ya load em up and then they grip. I’ve also described them as having a little marshmallow feel to them. You can take tons of curb and not upset the car much. Arc it into the corner or do the point and shoot. Didn’t seem to affect lap time. I found that if you overdrive the thing you just slow down. Way down. No changes in balance on the car. Drafting is much better with the bigger tire. Davis and I ran half of a practice at NOLA with good feedback. Slower of course but didn’t feel 5 seconds a lap slower. Roebling was 4 seconds slower. CMP was the winner at only 2.5 seconds slower. Bruns actually went faster at CMP. I think the tire solved some of his handling issues at the time. Donnie Isley and Laura Hayes ran them at Robling. They seemed to like the fact you could drive different lines and not lose anything. The idea was to go out every session and try to shread the tire. No luck with that! 20 session later we still have the same grip level so far. It’s still early. All this info is vs the Hoosier tire. Don’t get me wrong. I prefer the grip level of a Hoosier race tire but this could be a good cost affective to get people back out on track. Much like the Challenge Cup option.Quote:
Originally Posted by grapefarmeral
+1 for having a common tire/wheel setup between FVCC and this series. The more places a car can run as-is, the more folks that will show up. Maybe you have something already setup with Toyo at this point that can't be changed for this year, but I think you're shooting yourself in the foot being stuck on the current tire/wheel setup.
I have stated before that disc brakes won't fit the CC wheel. Also, that wheel has so much offset, I would be worried about the outer wheel bearing being severely overloaded. We have had spindle failures with the stock wheel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbitrary
I believe the total price difference between the series for one race will pay for the rims. Because tires are consumables, you will eventually use both sets if you have them.
May I ask how many Challenge Cup races you participated in last year?
Watching this thread with interest. *I* think it might be very informative AND FUN,. to pit the CC cars against DriverzCup (I'm going to call them DZC) cars (wheel/tire wise) and see what happens. Someone mentioned that we are talking 'mixed classes' again, but I disagree. Mixed Classes is where the slowest class on the track (FV) is on track with classes that are TWENTY SECONDS A LAP faster. I don't imagine that we would see more than ONE second per lap difference between CC and DZC cars on average. Greg mentioned that he could just add "another class" to DZC to accommodate CC ..but why not race against each other and see what happens? Basically it's still SINGLE CLASS RACING. *NO ONE* in either class is going to be able to close on you by 30 MPH going into a turn and outbrake you by 20 car lengths! .. not even 10 car lengths. Probably not even 5... maybe not even 2. (and I don't know which would be ahead.) This is supposed to be about SINGLE CLASS RACING ..and THIS IS IT! CC is currently racing within SCCA .. DZC, at least at this point, is aiming at its OWN RACES... which means that SINGLE CLASS RACING RULES.. like FRP .. It would mean that a DZC weekend would be MUCH more like an FRP weekend than an SCCA weekend. MORE TRACK TIME FOR LESS MONEY and ALL SINGLE CLASS RACING!!
So.. those of you that haven't tried either, why not let's try it and see what happens in September? CC guys.. bring 'em on down for the 55th and see how everything stacks up against DZC cars? There CAN'T be nearly the difference between the 2 wheel/tire combinations than there is between the front and back of either class .. or even the diff within the slick class cars. Probably a LOT less than the slick tire class.
Are we in this for the MONEY? I don't think so .. there's not much coming IN. Are we in this for FUN? YOU BET! Can I have (MORE) fun racing against a class that's potentially 1 or 2 seconds different than my own (as compared to 20 secs?) .. YOU BETCHA! Is it SAFER? .. YOU BETCHA!! WOW!!! is it safer? .. by LEAPS and BOUNDS, YES! More like Vintage racing except you don't have DOORS and TIN TOPS around you.
At this point, I might ask Greg about the minimum cost to 'try them out' at Roebling in September. And I might suggest that anyone that's INTERESTED AT ALL, pipe up and say so. Volume talks. So, if you think that LOW COST street tires on FV are at all interesting, let's hear what you have to say about putting your car on track at Roebling to see what it could be like. I know that CC has offered 'try outs' for a couple of cars during their events, but I wonder if DZC has a similar offer for others? How many cars could we potentially put on track for how much cost? If there are, say, 10 sets of tires/wheels to test, we could put out 10 cars per session and rotate them to the next 10 interested cars for the next session .. maybe we might have 8 sessions during the day? and we could get 2 sessions for each car for 40 cars ?? Now THAT would interest me! Could also allow CC cars to 'mingle' (or possibly COMPARE?) during all sessions? Just talking here .. let's don't make it a FIGHT .. just talking points. The DZC site mentions $200/car .. does that INCLUDE a set of DZC tires to test?
Would that interest anyone else?
Some brakes could potentially be an issue, but we have already had disc brakes on the cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Bruns
The wheel offset of the Diamond wheel is a bit much, but you can get them with the 'correct' offset if you ask. Even so, there have been zero bearing or spindle issues. Don't forget, this wheel has been in Canada for a LONG time.
I think you are referring to my comment earlier.... to clarify, I meant 'mixed class' again talking about if you 10 FVs showing up, with 5 on FVCC & 5 on DZC, then you still only have 5 cars in your class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Davis
I do think there would be more than 1 second per lap between them on equal cars.
yes, but to be clear for those reading.....we do race with SCCA, but only on 2 weekends total, and we do have our own FVCC run group then anyway. our other weekends are contracted to be single-class.
This. This right here is why I think adventures like this will be the answer. The street radials on our cars just are so fun, and the racing in a group of them is awesome. That is what people do not understand about FVCC, and now DZC. Even if you have raced for years, it's a whole new level of cheap fun again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitchell Ferguson
I honestly do like what you guys came up with. Somewhere, between on here and Facebook, this exact wheel & tire have been mentioned. It is this wheel I was wanting in FVCC (that post is buried somewhere on here, my Dad liked the other Empi, though), and even the tire was one I brought up when people didn't like the Toyo R888 I tested, as they felt it was not enough tread for the rain (we also talked Hankooks in the FVCC FB Group). This has the looks, weight & performance potential to address a lot of the complaints the Falken package gets.
That being said, I lost that fight because just enough people already had the 14" Falkens, and no one wanted to change the series at that point. I think this will be the answer to getting more cars in the SouthEast out again, but it would've been really nice to be standardized.
That doesn't mean I don't want to try them, though. Have a spare set to loan out? :D
The $200 each for 20 cars is track rental only. Insurance goes up considerably with 30 cars. The wheels, tires and lugbolts/nuts would be needed. The aluminum wheel is thicker needing longer lugbolts. Studs will require 60deg. taper instead of the ball socket.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Davis
If only 10 cars committed, it would be $400 each which probably would not fly, so that is why we want to get this commitment early.
There is a huge price break at 40 wheels (10 cars) for us which of course reduces your costs. We make $0. So, we can definitely have something to try unless the field is full. I feel confident we can accommodate anyone truly interested. So far, we need 15 more commitments. There has to be commitments because there is no money to cover no shows since the track rental does not change.
Send an email to gb@driverzcup.com if interested as everything will be on a first come, first served basis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Bruns
Greg,
You mentioned above that the tires could last a year or more. At last season's Pitt race, on FOUR year old tires, I finished toward the front of the pack and abused my tires in the process with NO ill effects towards them. The Challenge Cup tires may appear to be initially more expensive to purchase, but in the long run I'll be surprised if that trend continues. Grape Farmer Al (Al Spadin) has previously charted the costs to run Hoosier slicks vs. Challenge Cup radials over a ten year period and the difference is staggering.
I'd be surprised if any tire out lasts the radials we're using and still provide a competitive performance after FOUR years of use.
Mark
I have 2 sets that I could loan out with one set of lugbolts and one set of M12 lugnuts. You would have to pick them up in SC or pay for shipping. No cost for using them. Send me an email at gb@driverzcup.com if you want to try them, and of course since you asked first...Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Clark
Zero.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Bruns
But, I'm a 20-something year old looking to get into a formula series in a year or two. I believe my input should be essentially invaluable as myself and people of my demographic are what will keep the sport alive. Out of the dozens of people I know in my demographic from the ones wanting to get on track for HPDE for the first time this year to the ones that have been racing for years, formula cars of any kind are on none of their radar.
Arbitrary,Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbitrary
I believe everyone's input is valuable. I did not enter the decision to change wheels & tires lightly. I have been involved in SCCA racing since 1970 & a Vee driver since 1988.
I have done a lot of research on this particular issue.
Apparently I was not clear, but I wrote that the disc brakes, that will be legal as far as track limits (52.5" F, 50.75" R), wont fit the Diamond wheel because the disc is a very large diameter in order to clear the link pins on the ID of the rotor.
So what happens if you, sorry I don't know your name, never actually drive Vees, yet have an influence of all those that do race Vees?
I like Stevan's idea of running both, especially at a fun event like the 55th. No need to fight over something that could be successful for each region.
The disc brake issue is a concern that most of us will have to address but probably won't immediately. Unless an affordable conversion kit is made widely available, many of us could wait for a well proven setup first.
Wheels aside, I do think the Falken is a far superior tire. It is not directional so it can be easily rotated and run on all 4 corners without a dismount. The Toyo T1R is a design originally released in 2005 and discontinued by 2011. (I'll note this is with rough internet searches, please correct me if i'm wrong) That explains the very low price, but its only a matter of time before the inventory is depleted and they are no longer available. They've also been sitting in a warehouse in various conditions in locations across the country for at least 7 years.
The Falkens on the other hand have benefited from the most recent 200TW street tire development and will beat the Toyos in every category except perhaps longevity. It will be interesting to see what a difference there will be in laptimes!
https://www.autoxandtrack.com/falken...k-plus-review/
I agree it's pointless to discuss the two tires if there is no testing data to compare the lap times. Remember CC is going to the 615K+ this year, which I think will be a good bit faster than the 615K we've run the last few years.
"The Toyo T1R is a design originally released in2005and discontinued by 2011."
Apparently Toyo doesn't know this.
https://www.toyotires.com/tire/patte...e-summer-tires
Thanks, as I said correct me if I was wrong. There was more than one person talking about them being discontinued though...
https://www.google.com/search?q=toyo+t1r+discontinued
The tire was still released in 2005, so it was likely designed in 2003-2004. That thing is a relic in the tire industry.
Ferdinand Porsche designed the VW in 1936 and we race it today. Hoosier designed that basic race tire last century.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbitrary
Great designs last a long time.
I care about having more fun per dollar and this does it for me.
Please site your source for this statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeTesterman
Toyo USA has just confirmed that this is a current and popular tire.
Tire Rack has just confirmed that they have no plans to discontinue selling it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Bruns
Toyo did confirm that the tire is not discontinued and also was replaced long ago by better design. I did point out how I was misled by many different car forums with posts stating the tire was discontinued around a similar date. I am curious what the date code on the sidewall of the tires you're testing was?Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeTesterman
I vote for the running either tire at the 55th, which seems like fun. For the armchair tire discussion, which like Chris said has no actual value until we get some race data, lets list potential Pros & Cons very much up for debate:
Falken Azenis RT615k+:
Pro
-Current 200tw tire tech. Leaps in tire compound improvements the last 5+ years
-Softer, more grip, faster laptimes?
-Stiffer sidewall but taller tire
Con
-Higher cost per tire: $90
-Softer, potential for overheating
-More wear, Less longevity
-No disc brakes?
Toyo Proxes T1R:
Pro
-Lower cost per tire: $65
-More longevity
-Fits disc brakes with legal track
Con
-2005 design/compound
-Harder, less grip
-Directional tread, no 4 corner rotation. Left side may wear earlier than the right side with most circuits running clockwise, more cost for tire flips/rotations
-Wet grip concerns
I had one thought in favor of the Toyos. Maybe you folks down south don't want the softest street tire that could get greasy and melt away from overheating on your very hot days.
New tires compounds are fantastic, but Vee being open-wheel and light weight helps I'm sure. People take water spray bottles to the grid to spray these "extreme summer performance" tires between 60sec runs at national solo events! The Falkens are in this "extreme performance" category, and the T1R is in the lower "ultra high performance" category on Tire Rack.
If there are spots open that are not running the DZC package, by all means come play. I actually hope that all the spots are full for the sake of our series. FVCC & DZC is still about fun. I would like to try at least one of the CC events.Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeTesterman
Someone may be testing the DZC in the test day at Mosport in order to compare. I am not convinced the TOYO is the best tire, however, this tire surprised me immensely. I am convinced in this rim. Offset affects handling much more than most think.
I thought one tire remount per year or two would be worth it. The fronts don't get any wear so we move front to back.
I think you will find the Toyo package will be faster than the Falkens due to weight & better effective gearing alone. We do get killed off the corners currently in FVCC.Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeTesterman
There probably will be some disc brake kits that do not fit under the 14" wheels, but we have already found & run some that do.
Both tires are directional, but the Toyos are much more visually obvious. There are some reported issues with reversing direction of any radial tire, as the cords & belts are constructed for a certain loading, so suddenly reversing them could cause the cords to fail. Not sure how much of an issue it is for a FV, but I have never run a radial opposite its intended use.
I think the Toyo could actually be better in the wet than the Falkens. Just looking at the tread itself, it already looks more like a wet/intermediate tire, but it does appear to lack grooves to help clear the water out of the main V pattern. Having run Falkens several times in the wet, they can be extremely slippery at speed.
Thanks Matt. I'm hoping everyone can learn from my getting familiar with these tires on a Vee. :thumbsup:
Also, I'm pretty sure they Falken's are not directional design. I've never heard of anyone recommend against rotating a tire.
And it's far from the fastest thing on the track. Great designs may last, but that doesn't mean they're the best design. Living in and going to school in the former rubber capital of the world that's still home to at least three major tire manufacturers that I have both friends and family in engineering at all of them, I can assure the T1R might as well be in a museum compared to any tire released in the past 2-3 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Bruns
Additionally if the extra $100 for say the 615K+ compared to the T1R would keep you from being able to afford racing, then I'd hate to see what happened if something broke on your car that costs hundreds to fix. You might be sitting out for years. There's nobody racing a shoe string budget so thin that $100 more would end their season or keep them from starting it.
It would seem that you are missing the point. This tire is not SUPPOSED to be the fastest thing on the track... neither is the CC Falken. These are just the tires that have been chosen. The Falken is not available in a 15" size and the T1R IS. The WHEELS determine which tires will be available for use by which manufacturers. It doesn't matter that there are "better" tires out there (in different sizes) that will NOT fit on either the CC or DZC rims.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbitrary
It's also not the $100 difference that matters here .. it's the several THOUSAND dollars per year in tires if running a DZC or CC series as compared to running slicks in SCCA.
Instead of sitting around trying to pick apart the DZC selected tire, why don't you just focus on the CC series if you should ever decide to go racing? As an Ohio resident, that would fit your geological area better anyway. The actual RACERS that have participated in this thread seem to be willing to listen and consider the possibilities of both series/wheels/tires. CC has changed tires several times and so could DZC if the need arises.
The basic Challenge Cup format was developed in the early 80s. I was at the first test in 1980. Any theories of extra wear-n-tear on components was disproven long ago. The reduction in loads actually reduces wear-n-tear and breakage.
On our FFs with Toyos, I regularly run them backwards (unidirectionally speaking) in the dry to equalize wear patterns without the cost of remounting. Although you will never get a tire manufacturer to admit it, for liability reasons, you will need a lot more than 60 hp to undo any compromises from unidirection construction, which is normally only a concern on initial installation anyway.
Hi Greg B,
Reckon that you can count Megan in for he race at Roebling she was already excited about the Birthday event and with this one as well the trip becomes more compelling. With the CC deciding late to go to Watkins Glen in September it will be cheaper for me to come down there, buy the rims and tires have her run the race with you guys and then the Birthday bash, than pay for her to get emancipated in order to let a 17 year old race in NY.....
Brent
Great news, thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by BGilkes
Honestly, I am amazed at Megan's skill at any age, much less 17!
If you are going to Charlotte, I could get them to you to try on the test day.
Please send an email to info@driverzcup.com and I will arrange.
Don't know what date code Greg has on his tires, but I DO know that I ordered a set last week and received them yesterday.. MY date codes are 3 @ 3617 and 1 @ 4817. That means 2 things .. the tires are less than a year from 'build' and that there were at least 2 batches made last year that are only 12 weeks apart. That indicates to me that the tires are in "current" production.. not sitting around on shelves for the last 10 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeTesterman
I wonder though.. did Toyo indicate to you what "new design" this tire was replaced with? .. and whether or not it was in the SAME SIZE?
Not sure how many are following this thread, but it happens that I am headed for Mid Ohio this weekend and COULD bring up a set of DZC tires/wheels if someone were going to be there to pick them up for a test somewhere. You would need to be responsible for getting them back to Greg at some point. When that would be .. would be between you and GB. I plan to get to the track some time on Thursday afternoon. If it matters, I am also PLANNING to be at Charlotte the following weekend .. as is Greg, last I heard.
I will be at Charlotte but I would not need them back unless someone wants to try them at the Charlotte Test Day. The more feedback, the better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Davis
Any updates, new information, comments, etc. following the series' first event having taken place?
The DZC Test Day went VERY well for a first event. We are all still here for the FV55th event with VDCA. The DriverzCup.com website will be updated with event details after we get back home.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbitrary
News on the website, Laura Hayes won the inaugaral race by a foot.
https://driverzcup.com/
I have purchased the wheels, which are beautiful, and tires which are remarkable looking. I had hoped to get to Savanah for this but events transpired to keep me away.
I see on the website, news that one set of tires now has 25 heat cycles and going strong (getting quicker). Combine that with the low cost for a set, roughly $250, and you basically have negligible tire costs. And almost the same diameter as the slicks...