FB/ 80's - F1 build seed is growing

Hi All,
First off, I'm very impressed with this forum!

A quick intro,
My name is Paul Chernikeeff. I'm the founder and owner of Rotec Aerosport Australia. 20 years manufacturing small radial aircraft engines for recreational sport aviation. 110 and 150 HP.

My first love is aviation but a close second is open wheel race cars, with my favorite era being the 80's-90's F1. Having just finished an airplane project, I decided to take a few weeks off. But I'm sure like many of you I got itchy fingers really quickly and I'm now ready to get started on a something new.

My Project concept.
My plan is to build an open wheel racer that resembles an 80's inspired F1 car (for club track days) . So I started to search for automotive engines and trans-axle gearboxes etc, On the engine front I really wanted something that revved and sounded, well, F1 like.
Then during my searches I stumbled across F1000 race cars and it took me about 3 minutes to fall in love with these cars! wow they look, sound and performance great....no I mean awesome, with a sequential six speed gearbox oh man, perfect!

It didn't take me long to find Jim Ludemann's project and I read his blog and his threads on this forum from top to bottom, inspirational. This forum has quickly become the go to for my research as there is clearly some very experienced, clever folks here.

Im designing the car from the wheels in. So my starting point right now is to get a hold of wheels, tires, brakes, hubs, flanges and drive shafts, and the Hayabusa 1300 engine, with wiring and ECU.


Using Jim L's lead Im going to run modified Honda Civic hubs, drive shafts etc, I have several auto salvage yards in my area (Melbourne Australia), so Im going to start by grabbing the Honda Civic parts over the next few days.

At least that's a start.

Any input / advice is VERY welcome.
Specifically the location and sources for the following hardware.

Center lock rims 10 x 13 front 8 x 13 rear (sources)
Tires for the above (sources)
Brake calipers and rotors (size and sources)
Springs and shocks. (classic inboard push rod operated)

Thanks in advance, Paul C
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/atta...id=74854&stc=1

Sometime ago I was working on a new type F1000 chassis. Of interest for you would be the fact that I designed around Honda Civic parts. I found that there is a difference between 1990's and 2000's stuff but the differences are minor.

I used the Honda differential for the rear chain drive. I have the sprocket cantilevered over the left side drive joints. I have the differential mounted in the center of the chassis. This allows me to transfer the drive loads directly into the rear of the engine. The setup is very similar to the ICP and Williams chain drive setups but costs a fraction of the price. In short, at the rear I am using Honda parts wheel to wheel. The picture below is a rendering of the Honda differential modified for a chain drive.

In the US, we run our F1000s on 7 and 9 inch wide rims. Our rules allow 8 and 10 but the best tire for our application is the tires used for Formula Continental, F2000, but mounted on wider wheels. My suggestion is to choose your tires first. Then the rest of the suspension will fall in place. We found that all the tires that fit 8 and 10 inch rims are designed for cars weighing 1500 pounds or more. The Citation F1000 weighs 1000 pounds as raced.

As a retirement project, I am building an airplane. I have a Lycoming IO540 hanging on the front of the fuselage.

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Originally Posted by S Lathrop

I used the Honda differential for the rear chain drive.

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Just curious about implementation. Does the Honda diff live in a bath of gear oil? or is that only for the R&P?

Did this ever get implemented?

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Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing

Just curious about implementation. Does the Honda diff live in a bath of gear oil? or is that only for the R&P?

Did this ever get implemented?

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Not show is a canister that enclosed the differential between the bearings. A seal is necessary on the right side bearing holder that seals against the tri-pod housing just as in the car. On the sprocket side the seal is in the sprocket drive bell and seals on the tri-pod housing on the left side.

I stopped work on the project because I could not see any future for such a car in SCCA. I was trying to come up with a $30,000 formula car with Formula Ford performance. That would be less than half a new FF today. The project had a secondary market as a FF with Honda power. That version would be over twice as expensive to produce, but significantly less than a new Citation FF.

Would like to hang a Rotec 110 on the front of the Wittman Buttercup/Tailwind I’m building. Perfect power and weight imo.

Hi Steve,

Airplanes First: Very good to hear you're building your own plane, such a great endeavor and to then test fly your creation is something very few can say they have done. To me it was most satisfying. I taxxied around for a few weeks, got the tail up a few times (accidentally got 20' airborne once, another story :) , then one sunny day I just pulled the trigger and flew. What a rush!

O-540 you say. Wow now there's some power, what are you building?

We have used our radial engines on several interesting aircraft, including the RV8 (A Poor mans Hell cat Google "Brian Kelly" FL) and Steve Wolfs "Samson Mite" which is scaled to the size of a Pitts S1 and uses the same structure. Very cool. Oh I developed an diaphragm mechanical fuel injection system aerobatic engines including the 540. . Its the next best thing to stock injection. A lot simpler and at a fraction of the cost.

https://www.rotecaerosport.com/tbi (TBI systems)
https://www.rotecaerosport.com/military-planes (Brian's RV8 )
https://www.rotecaerosport.com/biplanes (Steve Wolf Samson mite)

Back to race cars:
Thanks for the great info on the Honda diff. Im a huge believer in using ingenuity over CASH. Call me tight don't care either way I get satisfaction from making or adapting items that work just as well. So YES ill be looking to avoid purchasing high end race equipment where possible. Multi piston Brakes and Rotors should be possible too? Sports cars must have decent brakes.

1. Regarding the Honda diff, are they LS , this is important for performance right ie LSD?
2. Which specific year(s) Civic were you targeting for running gear? late 90's?
3. Regarding wheels and tires, are 7" x 13" and 9" x 13" wheels and tires more common and as such more easily found?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jphoenix13

Would like to hang a Rotec 110 on the front of the Wittman Buttercup/Tailwind I’m building. Perfect power and weight imo.

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We have done the Wittman Tailwand before, we have the engine mount and oil tanks, goes great. Hahaha Jesus you'd think I was here to sell stuff which I can assure you im certainly not.

Very interested in Honda Civic info. I think I have the drive shafts and hubs clear in my mind, Steve's Honda diff has me thinking, is it LSD.

On the hunt for wheels and tires. Advice welcome.

I am building a 4 place Bearhawk. I think there are a couple flying near you. The Bearhawk Patrol or LSA would be a good candidates for your engines.

This is my first project. Both of my parents were pilots and two of my kids are professional pilots. I thought it would be fun to finally build a plane after reading about a Tailwind in Mechanics Illustrated as a kid. I have decades of designing and building tube frame race cars. The Bearhawk is a fun learning experience given my familiarity with a few of the building techniques involved.

I calculate the cost and time to build a frame in the number of joints and not the space between them. So I figured the Bearhawk 4 place would not be much different than building a Cub. And with all metal wings, I did not have to learn how to work in wood.

G'day Steve,
Bearhawk are the booth right across the road from me at EAA Oshkosh. Nice guys, we often talk about fitting the larger R3600 radial to their smaller machine. Our geared radials punch well outside their capacity due to swinging larger props, more efficiently. The R3600 fits somewhere in between the 320 and 360.

But your 540 Bearhawk with be like a Super Cub on steroids! Just you up will climb like crazy!
Below is a Kitfox I recently finished in our shop for local demo. Its powered with my R2800, I did a ton of custom mods to the standard build and also lots of reshaping and composite styling. To many molds to mention. Cut the rudder off and the elevator and made my own shapes. Was shooting for a Mono-coupe look. Flies great. Tons of power for this little machine. I'm climbing at 1800' / min. Cruise is 103MPH at just 18" MP. If I go to just 22" I over speed VNE! Engine will give me 28"HG at sea level I can only use all that on take off.

Back on topic, last I was asking about your Honda Civic diff being limited slip? Im interested to pursue this option if viable.

Paul.

I chose the open diff for my project and because it is way more common. But there is no reason that you could not use a limited slip type. The diff. housing is the only thing I modified in my design.

The mounting flange drive gear is turned down just to reduce the size and make it easier to do a container around the diff. The later diff (2005) that I have has a bit more material in the housing. I plan to machine a series of slots in the side of diff housing to drive the sprocket bell. The bell is held in place with bolts. I planned to use aluminum for the bell. The design of the bell is very similar to what we do on the ICP-Variloc chain drive diff that we used on the Citation F1000. You might consider steel or cast iron as an alternative for added strength.

We have never had an issue with sprocket drive in the Variloc diff. We are using stock 1000 cc bike engines so we are looking at 180 BHP or there about. But the Hybusa engine is a good bit more powerful than what we designed for.

Early in the development of the Citation F1000 we got into a brake system design project with a brake pad manufacturer. Bottom line, we ended up changing to solid rotors, 3/8 inch thick with Lockheed LD20 size brake pads. We had started with 4 piston calipers and vented rotors. The larger pads and vented rotors had a problem getting to optimum pad and rotor temperatures and retaining the heat between applications. The problem with over sized brakes systems is very erratic brake performance as the temperatures rise into the optimum range and then cool down before the next application.

As a small kid in the late 1940's my parents had a Cessna Bobcat, Bamboo Bomer, as the family hauler. From that, I have my love of radial engines.

On the F1000 diff we did for the Citation, it could be configured for either pure open, or, with a change of parts, a mild amount of LS by exchanging one axle gear and adding in some clutch plates. The gears are from '80's vintage Ford Escort transmissions ( I use the same gears in our small live axle quick change limited slips), after annealing them, modifying, and re-carburising. In the small LS's ( ramp and clutch type LS's), these gears are good for somewhere over 400 HP. They were the perfect candidate for these diffs because the gear teeth are shaped, not hobbed, giving them better strength at the tooth root, and the body of the gear is spherical shaped ( same radius as the ends of the smaller spyder gears) instead of having a snout, giving a lot of material available for the modification for clutch splines.

What you do NOT want to try, however, is making a ramp and clutch type LS using differential gears where the axles are held in with snap rings that engage the axle gears - the outward tugging of the CV on the axle will pull the gears sideways unpredictably, causing more LS action than the ramps would have given. Very unpredictable, and probably unpleasant to drive.

In the F1000 diff, there is no ramp, but instead it uses the parting thrust of the gears to put pressure on the clutches. Worked perfectly for those cars.

Amazing how these topics tend to converge. Both airplane building and race car differentials bring to mind Jon Staudacher.
His DSRs used a VW open diff without a can--just little alum plates to block off the holes in the carrier. He always maintained that the DSR's light weight, high downforce and moderate power never needed a limited slip diff.
As far a planes, check out his Staudacher 300S or any of his one off homebuilts.
And don't get me started on his plywood monocoque race trailers.
Marty

Hi Paul,
If you need any help with engines, I have supplied (50 plus over the last several years) to many in F1000, P1 (CSR) and P2 (DSR), as well as experience in shipping to Austral-Asia (Approx 15 units)
I have suppliers that deliver very low mileage, no excuses engines; typically the offerings on EBay are not so flash.
May I suggest going with a 08 and newer Hayabusa - the added displacement (1340cc) is a bit of a bonus, but to go older than 10 years you are getting into some really high mileage - best to stay recent.
My latest 'busa shipping to Canada is a 2014 w/ 1700 miles - Minty Fresh, bone stock, never opened up.
Let me know if I can help.
I also can get you headed in the right direction for a dry sump system as well.

Thanks, GC

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marty Nygard

Amazing how these topics tend to converge. Both airplane building and race car differentials bring to mind Jon Staudacher.
His DSRs used a VW open diff without a can--just little alum plates to block off the holes in the carrier. He always maintained that the DSR's light weight, high downforce and moderate power never needed a limited slip diff.
As far a planes, check out his Staudacher 300S or any of his one off homebuilts.
And don't get me started on his plywood monocoque race trailers.
Marty

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Don't forget his most beautiful hydroplanes!

The most beautiful hydroplanes were his dad's unlimited hydros. Jon's limited hydros were nice too.

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Originally Posted by glenn cooper

Hi Paul,
If you need any help with engines, I have supplied (50 plus over the last several years) to many in F1000, P1 (CSR) and P2 (DSR), as well as experience in shipping to Austral-Asia (Approx 15 units)
I have suppliers that deliver very low mileage, no excuses engines; typically the offerings on EBay are not so flash.
May I suggest going with a 08 and newer Hayabusa - the added displacement (1340cc) is a bit of a bonus, but to go older than 10 years you are getting into some really high mileage - best to stay recent.
My latest 'busa shipping to Canada is a 2014 w/ 1700 miles - Minty Fresh, bone stock, never opened up.
Let me know if I can help.
I also can get you headed in the right direction for a dry sump system as well.

Thanks, GC

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Thanks Glen I'll send you a PM about the engine, my research also uncovered the best Hayabusa units are indeed post 2007.

I find with most endeavors one can dream and plan for ever. Some times all you need to get rolling is to just take a the first step. So with that, yesterday I hit the junk yard and raided some Honda Civic parts, From the pics below I'll be using two of the drive shafts for the rear and then chop the splines from another two for the front spindles. There are also 4 flanges in this mess that will become the hubs for the four corners re the Ludemann build. Pictured also is a 1:18 scale FW11B which is what I'll be referring to for the body work. The car will be scaled to about the same size as a typical F3 Here's my short term shopping list in order of need. (used is ok) 2 x 8" wheels / 2 x 10" Wheels OBX Torsen dif 4-6 pot brake 1000cc bike calipers and discs (4 pcs ) Hayabusa Gen 2complete running engine. Peddle box / Master cylinders Steering rack and pinion

Congratulations on getting started! The way I finished was by constantly repeating to myself, "If I do a little bit every day, it HAS to get finished someday." I also found a useful way to trick my brain when daunted by the enormity of the task was to say "OK, I'll just go into the shop and drill that one hole I've been thinking about..." and then sit down quietly after I've finished the first small task. Soon, something else would pop into my head, and I'd find myself working.

Regarding your halfshafts, I built extenders & spacers by cutting up and welding an old diff & halfshafts so that I didn't have to cut & weld the actual axles to the new length. I haven't really been happy with this approach, and if you can find someone to make custom-length axles, either by cutting & welding or fabricating new ones, it would probably be better. As an example of what I went through, the aluminum spacers I made had to be machined so accurately I could feel a pneumatic seal when assembling them.

One difficulty I encountered when adapting the diff is that the steel is so hard it's impossible to cut new threads. Mine came with left-hand threads and I couldn't find matching bolts. I ended up having to drill out the threads and use through-bolts.

-JJ

I just had another thought regarding your project. You may be set on centerlock hubs to get that Formula 1 look, but you might want to consider just using the Civic hubs with the standard 4 bolts. Then you can use Civic wheels, and 7x13" & 9x13" sizes are used by the drag racers so should be more readily available. I spent a lot of time designing & modifying for centerlocks, but there aren't any pit stops in this type of racing so it doesn't make much difference.

-JJ

If youre going to build an FW11 replica I'd look at using a three cyclinder bike engine. Maybe a triumph or yamaha fz09? That way itll sound a little bit more like the V6 in the Willies.

Hey Guys,
Im still at it, Recently finished machining what I think is a nice LSD set up. This set up sees the sprocket outside of the rear chassis structure and inline with the engines sprocket and yet still has the diff in the dead center of the car so same sized drive shafts can be used with no offset. I'll post some pics shortly.

I now have the rims 13x8 and 13x10 center locks. I turned up my own centers and CNC milled out to look more period with the Williams 11B. Again I'll show some pics shortly.

Engine I'm setting up now, Its a gen 2 Hayabusa 1340cc, Its running well. So I just purchased a low profile 2" billet oil pan. With baffle plate and swivel pick up. Im installing it now, but my question is, that this sump has no accommodation for the oil cooler port. I read that the sump maker has deleted the oil port and recommends removal of the oil restrictor under the filter and run NO oil cooler at all!

I dont like the sound of that, I'd like to run an oil cooler. Any thoughts?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JJLudemann

I just had another thought regarding your project. You may be set on centerlock hubs to get that Formula 1 look, but you might want to consider just using the Civic hubs with the standard 4 bolts. Then you can use Civic wheels, and 7x13" & 9x13" sizes are used by the drag racers so should be more readily available. I spent a lot of time designing & modifying for centerlocks, but there aren't any pit stops in this type of racing so it doesn't make much difference.

-JJ

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Yes I get you John, But I like things be just so. I managed to find some decent center lock rims. Ive made my own centers which look spot on period 80's Fondmetal (ish). Im happy now.

I agree this thing will never see a pitstop or a quick wheel change. But hey those center locks sure it look cool.

If this thing ever sees a track I just know the Hayabusa is going to scare the 'S' out of me.

I used the same Civic OBX diff you did, but a designed a set up that centers the arrangement, so no offset. I think you'll like it. The diff will be set much like a Stohr with sprocket set outside the chassis rails. It took much head scratching till the design finally popped up in my head.

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Originally Posted by SEComposites

If youre going to build an FW11 replica I'd look at using a three cyclinder bike engine. Maybe a triumph or yamaha fz09? That way itll sound a little bit more like the V6 in the Willies.

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I have a Hayabusa Gen2 1340cc. That should do it :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JJLudemann

Congratulations on getting started! The way I finished was by constantly repeating to myself, "If I do a little bit every day, it HAS to get finished someday." I also found a useful way to trick my brain when daunted by the enormity of the task was to say "OK, I'll just go into the shop and drill that one hole I've been thinking about..." and then sit down quietly after I've finished the first small task. Soon, something else would pop into my head, and I'd find myself working.

Regarding your halfshafts, I built extenders & spacers by cutting up and welding an old diff & halfshafts so that I didn't have to cut & weld the actual axles to the new length. I haven't really been happy with this approach, and if you can find someone to make custom-length axles, either by cutting & welding or fabricating new ones, it would probably be better. As an example of what I went through, the aluminum spacers I made had to be machined so accurately I could feel a pneumatic seal when assembling them.

One difficulty I encountered when adapting the diff is that the steel is so hard it's impossible to cut new threads. Mine came with left-hand threads and I couldn't find matching bolts. I ended up having to drill out the threads and use through-bolts.

-JJ

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Hey John,
Yes I watched your work, I could see the diff issues. I think Ive solved some of them with my diff design. I'll post shortly.

Ive build a few home built aircraft. Yes it seems like nothing is happening and then all of a sudden it seems to just come together.

My mental exercise is to keep reminding myself that the pixies wont do it for me, so I guess I'll have to!

Hi All,
Ive been making some progress. This build is 1980's inspired F1 look alike. A bit of fun.

Hayabusa power. Bike shocks and bike brakes.

Ive drawn the basic thing in CAD. I have a cnc shop so can make decent parts when I have time.
I'm working on the complete rear end first then that will attached to the front in due course. I'm still planning on a composite front tub that mates to the fabricated rear space frame and roll hoops.

The rear uprights were all TIG welded together from accurately machined CNC milled and turned steel parts from 5mm plate steel, the main wheel bearing boss was finish bored after welding to remove the expected distortion. As us Australians would say, "built like a brick sh-1-t house". The stock Honda Civic hubs were modified to accept my top hat design. You can see how the top hat engage with the Honda hubs in eight locations, 4 blind dowels are in the place of where the original Honda wheel studs once were, and the other 4 for are rearward productions that are the shoulders of the pressed race wheel drive lugs. The pics should show all this better than I can explain.

I'm also quite please with how the OBX diff came out, I managed to come up with a split design that allowed me to get the main sprocket out side of the rear frame and bearing blocks.

My build process is to focus on getting the mandatory features of the rear end built first and then will add in the bracing and reinforcements around these as needed. This was in a hope to not corner myself or have to cut out items that may interfere with the primary features.

Progress pics attached:

Here is a picture of how I did the rear end of all the Citation motorcycle powered cars. This engine happens to be a Suzuki but I have done instalations for Honda and Kawasaki..

The rear suspension mounts to the rear drive housing. The engine frame bolts together just above the transmission and is removed to the sides. The oil pan is structural to the chassis. There is a brace to the top of the block but it is only to take the cornering loads of the engine. I do not stress the engine block. The rear drive housing forms the rear bulkhead of the frame where the engine side frames bolt.

Nice work my man! You raise a high bar.

In my case the frame looks a little sparse right now but as I said all the bracing, diagonals and cross members will go in once the main stuff in set in stone so to speak.

My engine will not be stressed. There will be your typical mounting tubes attaching the rear to the tub via the four corners, these side tubes will pick up the cylinder head mounts as they pass through. The rear of my car was inspired by the Wickman build as seen on this forum.

I should have the A arms dampers mounted shortly.

Ive been following some FSAE carbon tub builds, Im heading this way for mine too. I have some ideas! Some.

Note this car does not meet any particular category, it's a one off just to keep my hands dirty.

Looks nice, and sounds like you're having fun.

How will you adjust the chain? Reason for asking, it looks like you might be planning to use shims. When I had that arraignment it was a bit of a pain. My second motorcycle powered car has a pair of turnbuckles to help change the spacing between the engine and rear sprocket. Changing and adjusting chain tension happens often enough that it's nice when made an easier chore.

PS. I'm not near the expert of many here, but thought this was worth mentioning. :-)

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Originally Posted by palmac

Nice work my man! You raise a high bar.

In my case the frame looks a little sparse right now but as I said all the bracing, diagonals and cross members will go in once the main stuff in set in stone so to speak.

My engine will not be stressed. There will be your typical mounting tubes attaching the rear to the tub via the four corners, these side tubes will pick up the cylinder head mounts as they pass through. The rear of my car was inspired by the Wickman build as seen on this forum.

I should have the A arms dampers mounted shortly.

Ive been following some FSAE carbon tub builds, Im heading this way for mine too. I have some ideas! Some.

Note this car does not meet any particular category, it's a one off just to keep my hands dirty.

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Be rear careful about the cylinder head mounts. You might think about using Lord type mounts or leaf spring bushings (steel, rubber steel type mountings). The amount of movement between the rear of the engine and the front, even with something like what I am doing is a lot more that the head and block can take.

Yes I'm hearing you about the head mount!
Ok Ive got just the ticket, we use large rubber Lord mounts on our radial engine mount corners. One each side will addapt nicely. I recently changed the rubber spec so its harder now. This will be deal. see pics below

As for the chain tension, no to shims. I'll make a sold sprocket idler using a series of staggered holes to move the idler up ito the chain.

Again I'll sort out this detail once I have the A arms in places and see how much clearance I'll need.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by S Lathrop

Be rear careful about the cylinder head mounts. You might think about using Lord type mounts or leaf spring bushings (steel, rubber steel type mountings). The amount of movement between the rear of the engine and the front, even with something like what I am doing is a lot more that the head and block can take.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by palmac

Yes I'm hearing you about the head mount!
Ok Ive got just the ticket, we use large rubber Lord mounts on our radial engine mount corners. One each side will addapt nicely. I recently changed the rubber spec so its harder now. This will be deal. see pics below

As for the chain tension, no to shims. I'll make a sold sprocket idler using a series of staggered holes to move the idler up ito the chain.

Again I'll sort out this detail once I have the A arms in places and see how much clearance I'll need.

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That is the ticket. Most people have never heard of a Lord mount. Leave alone used them. I am building a plane and when I did the engine mount and all the cowling, I made aluminum inserts in place of the rubber.

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Originally Posted by S Lathrop

I made aluminum inserts in place of the rubber.

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So - err - what's the point of them then?
Won't that just make them "solid" - like a simple steel bracket?

Just trying to learn. Derek.

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Originally Posted by dereklola

So - err - what's the point of them then?
Won't that just make them "solid" - like a simple steel bracket?

Just trying to learn. Derek.

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In the airplane example, the engine I am using hangs from the mounts. The engine actually hangs down as the plane is stationary on the ground. Once the power is up and the plane is moving the engine centers itself in the mounts.

My suggestion for aluminum bushings was to make sure that Lord mounts were true to the engine after construction, when the rubber would be replacing the aluminum bosses.

Ah - construction aid - that makes sense - even to me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by S Lathrop

Be rear careful about the cylinder head mounts. You might think about using Lord type mounts or leaf spring bushings (steel, rubber steel type mountings). The amount of movement between the rear of the engine and the front, even with something like what I am doing is a lot more that the head and block can take.

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Out of curiosity what is the failure mode from using the cylinder head mounting holes? Do the bosses break off or is it twisting the block and killing bearings?

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Originally Posted by griceiv

Out of curiosity what is the failure mode from using the cylinder head mounting holes? Do the bosses break off or is it twisting the block and killing bearings?

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Bike engines are fragile. They are not designed to be structural. If you do a torsion test on a car, you will be shocked by how much things move. You might find that the frame will move .015 to .030 inches between the rear axle and the front of the engine. My frames are really stiff for a tube frame but I have measures .015 inches of movement between the cylinder head and the roll bar. That was a FC chassis. I did do something to fix that problem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dereklola

Ah - construction aid - that makes sense - even to me.

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Yes thats right, here at my work, Rotec, we fabricate lots of engine mounts so as our engines may adapt to any appropriate aircraft in the HP range.

We have a welding jig that we can adjust for each differant engine mount style. The mount frame would typically be hard mounted to the firewall of the ac. Then four Lord mount rubber cushioned couplers would attach the mount frame to the engine.

We also use solid aluminium bushings that emulate the rubber so when welding the couplings the rubber doesn't need to be in place, which would obviously melt. Way back in the day we used to tack weld with them in and that would see them get ruined. Thus the need for solid bushes for welding only.

Interestingly I recently had an engine mount failure on my old 90' VW golf the rubber had torn in two!. I was in a bind so just welded up a solid mount. Oh man the noise in the cabin was outrageously loud, I could hear every gear meshing in the gearbox. I smartly ordered the proper mount on Monday, and that fixed that.

So this got me thinking about how loud the race cars must be as their engines are typically solid mounted. So the Lord mount on each side of the head I would expect will reduce the transfer of vibration to the body. And thus the noise?

I had already been thinking of this, but now its a lock. I'm doing it.

A leaf spring bushing is a lot tighter than a typical Lord mount. I have cut a single leaf spring bushing in half to make 2 mounts.

Just something to consider.

G'day Guys,
Been chipping away at this project, some progress has been made. Rear of car being the main focus, most parts are designed in CAD then over to the machines to profile or turn the parts. I have a basic overview, and design each item as I progress allowing for changes which often occur when going from virtual (CAD) to reality (Shop).
Most the parts are CNC steel plate of various thickness 3,4,5,6 mm and then TIG fabrication.

The dampers / shocks are Yamaha bike (R6) I decided to pull them apart and cut off the oil and gas reservoirs. These will be mounted and then plumbed remotely for convenience.

Anyway some pics below.https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...id=86343&stc=1https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...id=86345&stc=1https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...id=86346&stc=1https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...id=86348&stc=1https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...id=86347&stc=1https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...id=86344&stc=1https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...id=86349&stc=1https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...id=86350&stc=1https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...id=86343&stc=1https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...id=86345&stc=1https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...id=86346&stc=1https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...id=86348&stc=1https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...id=86347&stc=1https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...id=86344&stc=1https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...id=86349&stc=1https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...id=86350&stc=1https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...id=86352&stc=1

Oh I made a silly update video, this was just prior to the making of the damper bridge cradles.

https://youtu.be/xF9ecvRoVVQ

Gday guys made the chain tensioner today, has a jack screw arrangement, still have to add a cross member with some bracing for stiffening.

will it work? Comments welcome.https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...id=86710&stc=1https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...id=86709&stc=1https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...id=86708&stc=1

I've seen one like that work successfully. No failures that I can remember.

I always thought it would be better if could be done in double shear. and try to use it as little as possible. I assume it is there to clear the suspension arm? Or is it also for tensioning the chain?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RussMcB

I've seen one like that work successfully. No failures that I can remember.

I always thought it would be better if could be done in double shear. and try to use it as little as possible. I assume it is there to clear the suspension arm? Or is it also for tensioning the chain?

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Yes BOTH, clear the lower wishbone and tension the chain.

I agree, double shear would be optimal, but in this case that’s not so convenient. The cantilever set up here is pretty stout and the support axle very beefy. The slotted upright has a compression sleeve that is used to tension the idler sprocket. So I can tighten as much as I like without fear of crushing the slot.

As said earlier I plan to run a cross member to the other sides longeron and then triangulate / brace the slotted upright to it. Should be fine.

I did go and buy a 17 tooth idler gear replacing the 13T pictured, much smoother

Gday guys, Well after doing a little of research I decided to bite the bullet on a cheap Ebay turbo. $185 !
All reports are they work suprisingly well. Surprisingly :) We'll see.

I've made the custom exhaust manifold and mounted the T3/T4 turbo, modified the hot side to take an external waste gate and the V clamp exhaust.

The engine is a GEN 2 Hayabusa, the stock ECU is reported to be fully programmable so I should be able to run a turbo map, fit a larger fuel pump, and higher volume injectors, the head and block will be rasied 2mm to low the CR and take the some extra boost. Otherwise pretty much a stock engine, pistons, rods, valves etc. Oh I will up the clutch springs later on too.
Engine will be on Avgas or E85, E85 looks good for turbo use.

Here are some pic of the set up.https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...id=87621&stc=1https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...id=87622&stc=1https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...id=87623&stc=1https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...id=87624&stc=1https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...id=87625&stc=1

Damn .
You got some serious skills buddy.
ride on .
Can't wait to see (and hear )this thing finished..
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Yes, this is very cool. I'm looking forward to how you do the air cleaner and intake (and eventually, a video of it running).

I have a gen 2 Hayabusa in a formula car so this is suddenly getting even more interesting!

Good luck with your progress. Glad you are keeping us posted.

Hey Russ,
The plan is to make a composite molded plenum chamber perhaps in carbon or not but composite just the same. This will have 4 ports for the Busa throttle bodies to attach. This plenum will be connected to a nice sized induction pipe from a side pod mounted inter cooler. I'm going to make a special head manifold that curves downwards so as to lay the intake plenum chamber down lower so it does not interfere with the height of the rear engine cover. I need to get that Turbo 80's look with low rear deck!

But right now I have enough established on the rear end so I'm moving to the front chassis and starting with the composite body work, then will make the frame and internal structures fit this.

I'll post up so pics of the body work, as soon as I have something to show.

See latest update video posted here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DL30ZxJ15BI

Hey guys, bit of an update on my FB/F1 project. I've decided to shift focus from the rear of the car and now to the front, which will entail the body work this will help determine the boundaries required to establish all the front details, such as suspension, steering, peddle box, seating etc.

So I recently began laying out the center section (tub) of the body work using basic wooden forms, then foam blocks shoved in between the forms, then sanding, fiber glass, Bondo and lot more sanding, A LOT MORE. Next will be the side pods.

These are of course patterns for which I will take various fiber glass moldings from.

This project is just for my technical pleasure it is not designed to meet any specific formula. It is base on the Classic 1987 Williams F1. The rear of the car is about 90% scale, the tub and front section closer to 100%. The Car has the wheel base of an average F3000 and is using the same wheels.
I have a thing for those turbo era F1 cars of the 80's, so fat and stout at the front!

We had a local air show here on the weekend so as a part of my display I put the car project out for viewing. I managed to get the center section of the body work pattern looking half decent in primer. Next is the side pod patterns. Then it should look less like a formula Ford and more like an 80's F1 icon.

G'day guys, pattern work on the body continues. Ive just completed the basic shape of the RHS side pod. LHS next.
I'm still yet to add all the corner radii. I'll do this last.
The side pods are a basic shape, unlike the center body, has no compound surfaces, with mostly flat sides made from sheets of MDF and plywood.
The side pods can be removed to allow the molding of the main body (tub) separately, where and if required.


https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...id=91790&stc=1https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...id=91791&stc=1https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...id=91792&stc=1https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...id=91793&stc=1