Z10 as a Super Vee

Following up from a post I saw in the classifieds of all places:

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According to my original 1974 Zink sales brochure, the Z-10 was EITHER a Formula Ford OR a Super Vee, depending on which engine was installed. It will accept a Kent for FF or an aircooled VW Type 1 or 1600/1835cc watercooled VW Rabbit engine for Super Vee.

My '74 Z-10 originally had a Kent, but converted to 1835cc VW in the 80's. The VWs are drop-ins.

Oh, and as Dan says, it uses a Type 3 front spindle. __________________
Stan Clayton
Dauntless Racing
Stohr Cars

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So in theory could a Z10 chassis be run as either an air cooled or water cooled Super Vee? Or would a car that began life as a Ford only be recognized as a Ford in vintage circles?

The internet also made reference to a Z11 which was a dedicated FSV chassis, only 4 of them built if the page was to be believed. Maybe that is the designation for a Z10 packaged for FSV?

I'll never afford any of it, but it's an interesting thought experiment vs trying to find a real FSV.

The Z10 was a FF only car. The Z11 was an air cooled FSV with a Type 3 VW engine.

When FSV went to water cooled engines, one or 2 cars were converted to water cooled. The Z14 was the primary water cooled version of the Zink chassis.

I believe there was one maybe 2 Z10 FFs converted to water cooled.

There were only 3 Z11s built. One car had a new frame after a crash at Mosport. The damaged frame was later rebuilt as a FF.

IIRC, the brochure says that the only difference between the FF and FSV versions is engine attachment points, that the FSV wheelbase is 1" shorter (not sure why - perhaps Steve recalls), and provisions for air- or water-cooling.

What a Z-11 air-cooled FSV and a Z-10 water-cooled FSV might look like... :D

Here are 2 pictures of the same car. This is the only "factory" water cooled FSV model, Z14. The car in the picture is 2 versions of the same car. The picture on the starting grid is Nancy James at the Watkins Glenn Grand Prix race. And that car first ran with an air cooled engine. I built 15 variations of that car, but mostly water cooled FSVs.

Only one Z11 was built by the Zink, Charlotte, NC factory. All the rest came out of my shop. The championship winning car of Bagley was rebuild in my shop in the week between Mosport and WG after a heavy crash at Mosport. The frame was replaced in that rebuild. Bagley won WG race and the championship.

All the Z10/Z11 frames were built in Charlotte. The Z14s and subsequent Zink models were built on my farm in Indiana.

The #12 car is what the air cooled Zink Z11 FSV looked like.

Where does the Z-12 fit in the Zink pantheon, Steve? I was under the impression the Z-12 was a "renamed" tube-frame water-cooled FSV Z-10, but was otherwise the same chassis.

The Z-14 was an aluminum tub monocoque water-cooled FSV that came a few years later, right?

Ken, I can post more photos of the #12 car if you are interested.

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Originally Posted by Stan Clayton

Where does the Z-12 fit in the Zink pantheon, Steve? I was under the impression the Z-12 was a "renamed" tube-frame water-cooled FSV Z-10, but was otherwise the same chassis.

The Z-14 was an aluminum tub monocoque water-cooled FSV that came a few years later, right?

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The Z12 was a FV designed by Ed Zink and built in Charlotte. It had a long gestation period while we worked to get the thing to perform. When we did, the car won 4 SCCA national championships, 2 back to back wins. And in the years we did not win, the car placed second.

Thanks, Steve. I have this recollection of you writing or saying that there was a tube frame Zink water-cooled FSV that lacked stiffness and was a heavy driving car, and whose shortcomings were addressed by the Z-14. Must be something else.

Ken, do you mind a thread hijack so I can ask a question of Steve?

Steve, do you remember the one-off Z14-C water-cooled FSV you and Ed built for Dave Manzolini? I was the its 3rd owner. Do you know if it still exists? It was a pretty neat car - stiff monocoque.

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Originally Posted by Stan Clayton

Thanks, Steve. I have this recollection of you writing or saying that there was a tube frame Zink water-cooled FSV that lacked stiffness and was a heavy driving car, and whose shortcomings were addressed by the Z-14. Must be something else.

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That was my description of the difference between the Z11 and the Z14 air cooled SFV. The biggest difference between the Z11 and Z14 was the chassis stiffness. The Z14 was close to 4 times as stiff as the Z11. The suspension was interchangeable between the 2 models. I helped some guys convert Z10/Z11 to water cooled but I never drove a tube frame water cooled car.

The Z14 was such a sweet driving car that I was able to finish 5th at Elkhart pro FSV. That was the first race for a Z14. I wasn't even qualified to race in a SCCA club event.
The water cooled Z14 was a good car but because of the extra weight and higher CG of the Rabbit engine, it was not as easy to drive. If I was looking for a vintage car, the air cooled FVS would be my choice.

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Originally Posted by RussMcB

Ken, do you mind a thread hijack so I can ask a question of Steve?

Steve, do you remember the one-off Z14-C water-cooled FSV you and Ed built for Dave Manzolini? I was the its 3rd owner. Do you know if it still exists? It was a pretty neat car - stiff monocoque.

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Yes I do. Because I built that car.

Ed had been hired to design an Indy car and the Williams F1 car was the base from which he worked. That Manzolini car was the FSV product from that collaboration.

I am enjoying just reading the back and forth, not very often do you get these things "Straight from the horse's mouth." I appreciate all the information from Steve, thank you for taking the time to respond.

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Originally Posted by S Lathrop

Yes I do. Because I built that car.

Ed had been hired to design an Indy car and the Williams F1 car was the base from which he worked. That Manzolini car was the FSV product from that collaboration.

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Ah, the Longhorn LR01 Indy car. Very cool.

Have you heard anything about the Z-14C's current whereabouts? It would be fun to find out it's still alive. It was my first SCCA Club Racing car (and yes, it was a faster car than I should have started racing in, but it was fun!).

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Originally Posted by RussMcB

Ah, the Longhorn LR01 Indy car. Very cool.

Have you heard anything about the Z-14C's current whereabouts? It would be fun to find out it's still alive. It was my first SCCA Club Racing car (and yes, it was a faster car than I should have started racing in, but it was fun!).

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I have no clue. I saw Dave years ago and He did not know anything about the car. At that time Dave was into target shooting with 50 caliber rifles.

What I didn't realize, is that by the time the z10 and z11 were built, super vee was a winged class. These cars are 10 years older than me (born 1983) , so I definitely have a lot of research and learning to do. I had ideas of taking a z10 in need if tlc and creating my own air cooled fsv, but now I realize that is a completely separate animal. Maybe someday before we stop making gasoline I will be able to afford a real fsv.

My father has been in the acvw business for 45 years, so it's the family ties that draw me to vw powered cars.

I am confident Steve will correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to recall that air-cooled FSV was wingless for the first year or two.

PS - Wiki says FSV ran without wings from 1970 through the 1974 season, and adopted wings starting with the 1975 season, so feel free to build a wingless FSV...sort of a FV on steroids.

PPS - Since this combo will have to run in FS, feel free to bump up the displacement. IIRC the basic Type 3 engine in 1600cc can be bumped with an inexpensive kit to 1915cc, and to 2300+cc for not much more. There are lots of buggy shops in SoCal who sell engine kits.

The old green "The Racing Bugs" book shows photos of wingless fsv cars, but they must have been very short lived.

Steve,
How many Z14's were produced? I bought Nancy and Ted's and sold it in the '80's to Jerry(can't remember his last name) in Sacramento. I'd sure like to know where it landed. That was a fun car. Mike McHugh had a Z14 as well at the time.
Chuck Raggio

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Originally Posted by La Scuderia Raggi

Steve,
How many Z14's were produced? I bought Nancy and Ted's and sold it in the '80's to Jerry(can't remember his last name) in Sacramento. I'd sure like to know where it landed. That was a fun car. Mike McHugh had a Z14 as well at the time.
Chuck Raggio

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There were 15 Z14s built. There was 1 Z14C built. Of the Z14s the first one was originally air cooled. I sold the rear engine bay for the air cooled car to one of the owners of that car. I think he intended to convert it back to a air cooled car.

Many of the Z14 were converted to some type of sports racers because there was no class in SCCA for them after F2000 became the dominant car in the FC class. For years the air cooled cars were allowed to run as FC. I was always surprised that no one ever did that seriously. The engine rules were changed to allow a stock piston and barrel combination that would have been a significant displacement increase. And after market rods were allowed so the weakest part of the engines was fixed.

For what it is worth, the master drawing for the Z10/Z11 was a Z11 with just the Z10 details shown else where on the drawing. I have that drawing and the drawing on which Ed worked out the suspension geometry. It would not be hard to convert a Z10 to a Z11. The frame is all different from the roll bar bulkhead rearward but the construction is relatively straight forward.

I think that car is running vintage events out of Grand Junction Colorado. I had some correspondence with the owner and we both ran at Spring Mountain last Feb and Indy in June.

Most Vintage organizations allow you to bump the 1.7 to 2L these days, especially if you run wings.

Who remembers the monoqoque (sp) Z-9 that Dave Livingston had back in the 70's?

As long as we are talking about old Zink race cars.

I agree with Steve 110% that an Air Cooled SV would definitely be the best bang for the buck in one was looking to go vintage.

Believe it or not, once you get the right bits in the engine and take care of it they are pretty bulletproof.

Used to be if you were in a water-cooled following an air-cooled you just followed until you saw the oil smoke, then moved over so you didn't take an oil bath!:ha:

If I recall correctly, I believe I remember seeing 001 and 002 Z9 FSV prototypes in Ed's original shop in Knoxville TN. Had to be 1970 +/- a year. I used to visit him regularly. Jim Keck was the engine builder then who did one for my 63' Bus a 1600. I shortly after that ended up with one of Ed's street legal mid engine dune buggy jeep like vehicles. He did 2 of them. First went to a friend of his with a VW powerplant on Nantucket Island for sand use. The second was a hot rod with a pseudo super 90 1600, a ZF limited slip, and a Vee internal front sway bar. First was a Veep (Volkswagen power), and the second one that I ended up with was the Peep (Porsche power).

The FSV air cooled motor was a type 4 motor not a type 3. A type 3 motor is in essence a type 1 motor with a different fan, but the same case. Type 4 motors were originally built as 1600 cc industrial motors. The T4 case is much stronger than a type 1 case and can act as a stressed member as it does in my '75 Lola t324.

T4 motors are still used in some tq midgets and there they produce big hp numbers. The one in my lola used for hill climbs is 2.6 liters (pretty much the max) and hp=235@5500 and torque at 240@3000 with 48 webers. The historic FSVs are limited to 2 liters but I've heard of big numbers from builders like Jake Rabi (sp) and Fat in LA.

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Originally Posted by tonychilton

The FSV air cooled motor was a type 4 motor not a type 3.

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Thanks for the correction. I should have remembered that.

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Originally Posted by tonychilton

The FSV air cooled motor was a type 4 motor not a type 3. A type 3 motor is in essence a type 1 motor with a different fan, but the same case. Type 4 motors were originally built as 1600 cc industrial motors. The T4 case is much stronger than a type 1 case and can act as a stressed member as it does in my '75 Lola t324.

T4 motors are still used in some tq midgets and there they produce big hp numbers. The one in my lola used for hill climbs is 2.6 liters (pretty much the max) and hp=235@5500 and torque at 240@3000 with 48 webers. The historic FSVs are limited to 2 liters but I've heard of big numbers from builders like Jake Rabi (sp) and Fat in LA.

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Originally Posted by S Lathrop

Thanks for the correction. I should have remembered that.

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This is true, but for anyone considering building an FSV for fun (instead of a car you expect to drive in scutinized vintage...) a Type 3 is MUCH cheaper.

For instance, CB Performance offers more or less complete Type1/3 engine kits from 1776cc to 2387cc (220hp) for $3800 to $5223. In comparison this 2270cc Type 4 kit (140hp) is $9963 for just the cylinders and pistons.

Prices for Type 4 in particular are all over the map, and it's easy to have well north of $20-grand into a Type 4 if one is starting from scratch. As always, let the buy beware...or put another way, do your homework.

The very very original Air Cooled cars were not Type IV, but type I or III.

they did not do too good in "hopped up" SV trim and VW quickly made some special pistons and jugs to "debore" the Type IV from 1700 cc to 1600cc.

Before the rules were changed in the 80's (in club racing) to allow 1700cc, those wee like gold.

Is bodywork available for the cars?

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Originally Posted by Don Jones

Is bodywork available for the cars?

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Depends on the car. Steve Lathrop will know if Zink bodywork is still available, but for the others...who knows?

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Originally Posted by Don Jones

Is bodywork available for the cars?

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We still have molds fro the Z10 and Z14.

What is the wheelbase on the Z14. If one were to build a "new" air cooled FSV how would the Z14 bodywork workout. No Z11 molds out there I assume.
Thanks

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Originally Posted by Don Jones

What is the wheelbase on the Z14. If one were to build a "new" air cooled FSV how would the Z14 bodywork workout. No Z11 molds out there I assume.
Thanks

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The Z11 and Z10 have the same body work The wheel base for all the Zink Super Vees was 90 inches.

Just to chime in, I got my Zink Z14 from Ted and Nancy James, two of my favorite people.
It was new, the spare car for Nancy. I reacquired it a few years ago, as a basket case, and still have it.
Lots of fun racing it, my first win, first pro race.
Hi Chuck !
Mike

Here's me (1981) in my Z14 I purchased from Ted and Nancy. I thought this was their spare? I remember they let me drive their Lola at Sears Point before I made the commitment to an SV.
I sold it to Gerry Valentini in the mid-'80's. I believe it got converted to a DSR in the San Francisco region. Yeah, that's one I'd like to have back too.
Hi Mike!

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I've just discovered that a Z11 or a Z14 raced in the single-seat Can-Am race at St Louis in 1985:
https://www.oldracingcars.com/canam/...-louis/#note10

Doug Waters wrote a lot about the car in his notebook, but he called it a Z11. However, this was the ex-Curtis Farley car, and it was described as a Z14 when he owned it. It became a CSR car after David Livingstone bought it from Farley. I saw it advertised on Ebay about ten years ago.

The first owner was said to be a Tim Miller in Kansas City.

Can anyone help me figure out whether it was a Z11 or a Z14?

As a notorious completer-finisher, I'd love to be able to find out what chassis number it was.

The history of the car is a bit confusing. The Z11 was a tube frame car which was identical to the Z10 Formula Ford from the roll bar forward. The Z14 was an aluminum monocoque chassis but used most of the same suspension components as the Z10/Z11. The first Z14 and all the Z11's were air cooled VW engines. When VW changed the Super Vee engines to water cooled engines, I built a number of Z14 with water cooled engines and I converted the original Z14 to water cooled. In addition there were several Z10 converted to the water cooled VW engine to run as FSVs. FSV was both a pro class and a SCCA club racing class. As a club SCCA class is was raced as FC. There was a major update to the rear suspension and body work for the Z14 and a picture of that version of the car is on the http://www.icpcitation.com/cars.htm.

Yes, it is confusing. The person who saw the car at St Louis that day, and evidently spoke to Livingston about it, wrote down in his notebook that it was a Z11. However, I struggle to believe anyone would have raced a Z11-based tubeframe sports car in a Can-Am race.

I think it's much more likely it was a monocoque Z14.

Do you know if the car Curtis Farley raced was a Z11 or a Z14?

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Originally Posted by Allen Brown

Yes, it is confusing. The person who saw the car at St Louis that day, and evidently spoke to Livingston about it, wrote down in his notebook that it was a Z11. However, I struggle to believe anyone would have raced a Z11-based tubeframe sports car in a Can-Am race.

I think it's much more likely it was a monocoque Z14.

Do you know if the car Curtis Farley raced was a Z11 or a Z14?

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Z14. There were only 3 Z11s built and one of those was totaled. The salvaged parts were used to build the third and final Z11.

Thanks Stephen.

Do any records exist that might show first owners of the Z14s? I'd be keen to know which one went to a Tim Miller in Kansas City.

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Originally Posted by Allen Brown

Thanks Stephen.

Do any records exist that might show first owners of the Z14s? I'd be keen to know which one went to a Tim Miller in Kansas City.

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Sorry but I would not have that information. With a lot of work I might be able to find out the original customers for the cars that were build. But that is if the records still exist. All those cars were built before 1980.

It would be great if one day we can publish more about the Citation-Zinks on OldRacingCars.com. We have a bit about the Z14s in the 1980 FSV results (https://www.oldracingcars.com/fsv/us/1980/) and 1981 (https://www.oldracingcars.com/fsv/us/1981/) but they were already second or third hand by that stage.

We have very, very little on ownership chains. One day, maybe...

One of the Z11's for sale in Australia, by the sounds of this thread this is a rare car. Shame the seller has the history of Zink all wrong. https://racecarsdirect.com/Advert/De...r-vee-zink-z11