Class Discussion

Hello all, I've been doing some thinking after being in contact with an FB guy who's selling his car to buy an FE. He is understandably not happy with the course FB is going especially in regards to the engine rules/costs and reliability issues. After reading through other class threads I see most involve significant discussions with the problems the participants are having and in particular cost and of course the usually problems with getting in class competition to show up at the tracks. When looking at the FE discussions it has a much different tone than than most others especially with the regular decent sized group of FE's at regional/national events here in the midwest.

Since getting into FE I've been curious as to why it hasn't become a larger class in the last 11 or so years since it's inception. I know the FE had it's share of teething problems but they have been worked out years ago. I biggest hit I hear against FE is that it is a spec series but I don't understand how that is a negative at all? I don't know of any pro open wheel racecars that aren't spec. Indy Car, Indy Lights, and all of the Mazda Road To Indy programs. I'm not going to dog any other class as there are some very cool and interesting cars and awesome people that I've met that run in them. But if the the masses agree that the biggest hit to club racing in the US is cost, then why not run FE? Somebody just had a sweet FE with spares, new gears, fully updated and sold it for a mere $20k! If you can't afford to buy that car and run it for a full year then I don't know what class you could afford to run period. Even though this year I suffered from some technical difficulties my first year running the FE it was due to my ignorance to the CDS data system which had an incorrectly set water temp channel (CDS is awesome BTW) I still had a blast running the car and the fields were tight with good racing all around.

I know many people have the deep pockets to pay for constant development but it's usually only the top three people in any development class that can afford to run at the front. I am not sure why others even bother TBH. In FE, any car with a proper setup should be capable to win in any event and the reliability of the thing is ridiculous. What's not to like? Why do you guys think more people haven't turned to FE? In the mean time, I'm looking forward to next year and can't wait to get back on the track!

Hey guys, can anyone tell me how many FE cars there are in Colorado and or the Mid States Region?
I see that Donohoo ran 1 event this past year in Colorado, I hope there's more than 1 car?

Doug

in concept, it does seem like FE would be more appealing to the masses. However, most club racers don't start with a new car and they only built about 120. spread those out across the country and you end up with fields of 6 or fewer.

I've stayed out of SCCA racing because I like open wheel but don't see the point of duking it out with only a handful of guys, I'll trade that experience for more seat time that I can get at HPDE events.

To push me into sanctioned racing, I would need to be in a class that has 10-20 cars at every race and doesn't have mixed class racing (or at least not more than one other class on track).

Since I'm hooked on open cockpit, I don't plan on going back to cagers (I ran Corvettes for years in HPDE).

If/when I decide I want to race, it'll likely be SRF because that's the only class that is open cockpit and high car count. Not the same performance as my PFM by a long shot, but a different experience when running in a pack.

For now, work precludes any predictability of available schedule, so I'm staying with PFM and HPDE days that fit my sporadic availability until life changes in a manner that allows me to dedicate to a race schedule.

Mikey, I see where your coming from but a I find it hard to believe people wouldnt spend a little bit more to build a new FE if used ones werent available. If only more people knew what they were missing in FE I think it would be a no brainer.

New FF, FC, FB, $60k+
USED PFM $50k+ with nobody to play with after next year.
NEW FE is what? $40k built?

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Originally Posted by dsmithwc04

I don't know of any pro open wheel racecars that aren't spec. Indy Car, Indy Lights, and all of the Mazda Road To Indy programs.

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What you think of as a spec class is true of the Mazda Road to Indy program but definitely is not true of Indy Lights and Indy Car. Yes Indy Car and Lights all use the package of parts and there are a lot of restrictions on what you can and can't do. But much of the setups and the components for the setups are not controlled. There are lots of options for suspension geometry changes that are not allowed in true spec classes. Those cars go too fast for their to be any compromise in setup.

When I got a new driver for Indy Lights, I could easily guess which spec car he had spent his time driving or if he had come from a "development" class. My favorite saying was that I could not teach a driver about shock tuning in a car going close to 200 mph. He should have learned that stuff in FF in particular or other lower level classes.

Unfortunately, FB is mechanically beyond a lot of drivers but, of all the junior classes, I think FB could be the very best training class for Indy Lights and Indy Car. The cars have the power to weight of a FA, better top speed than a FA because they are so small and are much more demanding to drive because of the relatively small tires, high power and low weight. They run the same tires as FC but, as an example, they are 15 mph faster in the middle of corner 1 at Road Atlanta than FC. Only FA in SCCA is a bit faster.

Also there is a difference in driving a perfectly balanced car that is right at the ultimate performance given the total package and driving a car that is somewhat compromised from that ultimate performance level. Just a change in density altitude from say 11AM and 2PM on the same day can make a big difference in the performance of a FB and hardly effect a spec car. The FB setup will need adjustments to maintain balance. Drivers need to learn how to drive a setup that requires a trip to the setup pad between each session to assure that the level of perfection is being maintained.

For club racing, this is stupid difficult for a guy who is doing this for fun. FF, FC and FB benefit and possibly require this level of knowledge and work to run at the front. Thus spec cars have justly earned a place for the club racer. But the guys going pro pay a price not learning what it takes to get a car to the highest level of perfection possible.

The one thing you won't see in spec classes is old men dominating the results the way they do in some development classes. A really well setup car is most times quite easy to drive fast. The grey hair guys tend to have cars that are easy to drive very fast. In an athletic contest of pitch and catch, they tend to loose to the kids.

Sorry for the rant. But maybe, you guys with the spec cars may actually have the most fun on a race weekend.

Steve, as usual you make some valid points. I know I brought up Indy Car and Indy Lights, but it wasn't meant to say that driving FE is a good way to get to either. No matter what, $$$ is the only way to go past club racing and not something in the cards for most of us regardless. My shot at stardom was over the minute I turned 29 and still hadn't competed in open wheel racing ;) I'm more focused on going as fast as I can with my limited budget as efficiently as possible. FE checks all those boxes. I'm just surprised other club racers who are in the same boat haven't come to the same conclusion.

FB is a class with an awesome potential, if you have $70k+ to spend on a car, $8k-12k minimum in the budget annually for your engine, $10k minimum a year to stay up front with development work, and way more $$$ to run them with a pro team. I don't think that's a large portion of club racers.

If money is no object, FE may not fit your needs, but if it is I don't see a way of going nearly as fast for anywhere near the cost.

$40K isn't realistic for a built FE, complete with your seat, data system, etc. Unless you do it all yourself. Not sure what the CSRs are charging these days, but I'd think at least $60K ready to race new.

I wasn't including data acquisition in the costs for any of the cars although a used PFM would surely come with a Motec. Surely a new FE could be pro built with a seat and "etc." for under $45k and with a lower end AIM system right?

Here's a question. Hypothetically, if one class had to be picked to best fit the needs of most amateur open wheel club racers, which one would it be? Cost of car, annual maintenance, crash expense and cost of development to keep the car competitive being the main factors.

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Originally Posted by dsmithwc04

FB is a class with an awesome potential, if you have $70k+ to spend on a car, $8k-12k minimum in the budget annually for your engine, $10k minimum a year to stay up front with development work, and way more $$$ to run them with a pro team. I don't think that's a large portion of club racers..

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There is an old saying that you are not thinking about when you talk about FB. FB is within 2 seconds per lap of FA at most tracks. I think at Daytona FB was out right the fastest top speed, at close to 170 mph.

Now compared to FA, FB is a down right bargain. The engine rebuild for a FA is well North of $20,000, yearly. Crate motors for FB would be $6,000 and low mileage salvage motors are $4,000 or less. A new FA would be between $150,000 and $200,000 minimum. That is assuming anyone would start up a production line again.

In short you are just not going to go as fast as FB without spending a lot of money and FB is a bargain.

My guess is that the engine cost for FM and FE is even lower than FC/Zetec. More on a par with the FF/Honda Fit engine. I don't think anyone has established what the longevity of the Fit engine is yet.

More to the point, FE and FM are closer to FC in cost, and performance. FB is on a completely different level. It is less expensive to build a new FB than a FC because the engine costs are significantly lower and all other costs are comparable. In fact a FB is less expensive than a FF to build.

One place FC does have FM and FE beat is the minimum cost to play. You can get a really serviceable, Pinto powered FC for $20,000 and maybe less. And over time you can trade up to more competitive cars and still not spend the money it takes to buy into FM or FE. One thing that is spec about spec classes is the price to play. And even with that Pinto powered car, you are in the same ball park as FE and FM speed wise. The down side might be the very steep learning curve to get yourself and the car up to speed. With the spec car you should be much closer to the pace with the car you buy.

And there is no reason that the spec car you buy will not be the winner if preparation and driving is at that level.

Again speed costs money. How fast do you want to go.

One thing that will bite in the not too distant future is the cost of maintaining a FE as the years and miles pile up. It may be less expensive to buy a new car than do a ground up rebuild, including the engine and transmission. Frames loose strength as the belly pan loosens and frame develop cracks from normal use. A fresh frame will show up on the stop watch. And CWPs in the transmission don't last forever and that is serious money to replace that single part. This fact is true for every type of race car. Like the guys that play with the car, everything ages.

I have been interested in joining the FE ranks in the past. However, I do not see how the class can grow. I live in an division where it is pretty popular but I have found regional interest is not something to hang your hat on, so to speak.

The cost of entry is pretty good given the performance and rules stability. SCCA Enterprise seems to have it's act together. Everybody involved seems good to deal with. There are a lot of experienced, good racers involved. I have seen anything from $20 to $32K to get a car. That all bodes well for the class.

The problem is that there are a limited number of cars that seem to simply change hands. New cars are not being bought. This can be attributed to a number of things but the fact of the matter is that the class has stalled and now faces even more competition with F4. The class is already buried in with the FM, FC, FB cluster that are all similar in many ways but different in ways that attract different people. Look at the participation numbers. They are all bunched together.

Unfortunately, the interest in open wheel racing is dwindling. I don't see this trend changing and without some sort of uniting of the similar classes I can't see any one of them growing much.

Maybe we will get to a point where there is an "all comers" class like they seem to say in England. It's always fun to pound around in a fast car but the idea that everbody is competing equally may be watered down a bit.

Just a few thoughts.

Jim

Yeah, I'm a bit confused why it isn't more appealing to the grassroots racer who prefers open wheel cars. Spec racing is ideal for the weekend warrior who isn't independently wealthy.

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Originally Posted by Keith Carter

Yeah, I'm a bit confused why it isn't more appealing to the grassroots racer who prefers open wheel cars. Spec racing is ideal for the weekend warrior who isn't independently wealthy.

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I think if you look at all the options there are to race at the FC, FM, FE, F2000, USF2000, and what ever else, there are a lot of racers on any given weekend. But they are not all at SCCA club events.

I for one really enjoy going to the few F1000/F2000 weekends that I do because those races are as close to the racing I was doing in the 70's and early 80's. Single class racing with 20 to 40 cars is fun to watch and participate in. There was a day when FC was the only game in town. SCCA changed that and I don't think net, bottom line, it has gained anything in the process.

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Originally Posted by S Lathrop

I think if you look at all the options there are to race at the FC, FM, FE, F2000, USF2000, and what ever else, there are a lot of racers on any given weekend. But they are not all at SCCA club events.

I for one really enjoy going to the few F1000/F2000 weekends that I do because those races are as close to the racing I was doing in the 70's and early 80's. Single class racing with 20 to 40 cars is fun to watch and participate in. There was a day when FC was the only game in town. SCCA changed that and I don't think net, bottom line, it has gained anything in the process.

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Steve, I may not have found the correct information but I did not see any F1000 or FB fields in the 20-40 range. It also appears you need to have a rather deep wallet to run competitively in either. $20k does not put you anywhere near the top 3.

Also, you said $20k buys a competitive FC but not FE. That is incorrect. An FE literally just sold for $20k that looked very well cared for and probably competitive nationally and with spares.

I know why you prefer FB, your a builder and engineer ( and apparently a pretty darn good one). It makes sense for you, but it doesn't for the the average open wheel racer. If your answer to the question I posed above "what class would best fit all needs" is FB , I would not even put it on the list of possibilities based on cost to play at the front.

FE is the cheapest open wheel racecar ( with the exception of FV....) to purchase, maintain, and compete at the front of the field in SCCA as far as I'm aware and it's one of the fastest. This thread isn't about asking people what the best open wheel class is, it's questioning why people haven't drawn the conclusion that I have in regards to FE making the most financial sense of any other class out there. Perhaps I'm wrong, but until shown otherwise I don't see the fault in my logic.

All of this comes to the big question. Indeed open wheel racing in the US is a dying sport, so doesn't it make more sense to find the classes that meet the most needs and support them or do we continue creating more classes and thinning the already small herd of drivers until people are automatically winning their class due to lack of competitors.

dsmithwc04

I am not pushing FB as a class for anyone but those who have the driving skills to competently drive a FB, have the mechanical skills to maintain the car, and the financial where with all to pay for it. This is a class for the top level club driver. It absolutely is not a class for a novice driver. I am not certain that most people understand the performance level of FB or the demands it places on the driver.

Among other things, a careless application of the throttle in the bottom 3 gears can easily put you into the fence. And the speeds the car can obtain are truly only for the most qualified drivers. Finally the engine is very easily exploded by less than careful management. But what I am saying is mostly true for FA as well.

Most of my work is in FC and FF. before SCCA formally recognized FC as a class that would be dominated by F2000, I ran a team effort in the Canadian Tire F2000 series to develop my FC. After SCCA recognized FC/F2000, the club then brought in FM and later introduced FE. I would like to think that the people who got F2000 going in SCCA laid the ground for what you are enjoying today.

You last paragraph is answered by the fact that there are too many classes chasing the same pool of potential participants. Read my response to Keith Carter.

Read more carefully what I said about a $20,000 FC. I never said that you could purchase a competitive FC for that kind of money. I said that that you could buy you a good reliable car to get started in. It may buy a much better car from just being able to race and have fun than a FE for the same money.

At the end of the day, there are too many classes at similar levels, especially now that we have Formula Lights and F4 added to the mix for any one class to be truly successful. I won FF at the June Sprints by beating 85 other guys. I have started June Sprints in a class of 95 cars. Those days are beyond the memories of but a few and will never return.

Steve, I understand what your saying, but the whole point of racing is to at least try to be competitive. Comparing an an FC not likely capable of being near a podium at the runoffs to an FE that is capable of doing so makes no sense if the price tag is equal or similar.


Here's a question, which class would it currently cost the least to run a car capable of winning the runoffs with the same driver.

A) FF
B) FB
C) FC
D) FE

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Originally Posted by Gearslingr

Hey guys, can anyone tell me how many FE cars there are in Colorado and or the Mid States Region?
I see that Donohoo ran 1 event this past year in Colorado, I hope there's more than 1 car?

Doug

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I think SCCA-E may have a registry. Jim just sold his who lived out that way and I'm not sure where it went. Perhaps if another FE came to play in that area others would shop up? You can always show up to BHF and RA where the majority of One Formulas series runs. They did 3 weekends at each track last year IIRC.

EDIT: Heck, have Steve at One Formula run your car for you and then just show up to drive. Cheaper than FB anyway you cut it. :)

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Originally Posted by dsmithwc04

Steve, I understand what your saying, but the whole point of racing is to at least try to be competitive. Comparing an an FC not likely capable of being near a podium at the runoffs to an FE that is capable of doing so makes no sense if the price tag is equal or similar.


Here's a question, which class would it currently cost the least to run a car capable of winning the runoffs with the same driver.

A) FF
B) FB
C) FC
D) FE

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FF. With the new tire rules, tire expenses will be much lower. The Fit engine is really durable and spare parts for FF are much lower than the other classes. You have to budget for at least one corner if you are really pushing the envelope.

Steve, it appears you have a heavy bias.

Still too early to comment on fit engine reliability. However, the FE motor has proven itself capable of winning even after many years of use.

I don't know much about the FF tire rule but is it really any cheaper than FE's spec tire? $800 for a set of tires and at the last FE race I was in the winner was on old tires so I'm nearly certain FF isn't any cheaper.

What about the costs of maintenance on a FF, the initial cost, and are you really sure the spare parts are that much cheaper than an FE? Not comparing apples to apples if you thinking about the cost of repairing wing damage since FF has none and any other winged class would have the same issue.

Also, the cost of development. What was the cost for the FF to switch to the Honda Fit motor? $25k ?!?! Could have bought one of several Runoff winning capable FEs for that.

If I'm not mistaken, Steve Stadel switched from FF to FE because it was cheaper.

The question was rhetorical. The answer FE.

dsmithwc04

I just checked the SCCA-E site and they do have a Owners Registry but won't let me access it.

Doug

I can understand not giving out any personal info but they couldn't give you a number of local FE owners?

Are you willing to travel to Road America or Black Hawk Farms? Might be a decent idea to give Steve at One Formula a call and see if you two can work out an arrangement that fits your needs for storing/transporting the car to the track for you. Last race at BHF he had 5 or 6 FE's in his transport truck and guys just showed up to drive. Must say I was really jealous at the extra time the guys had on their hands while I was fiddling with my data system and trying to find out why my water temps were high the whole weekend. After bleeding the system three times, cleaning out the radiators, removing the thermostat, flushing the system, swapped the temp sensor, we ended up calling it a weekend. Ended up being the water temp channel was set to linear when it is a non-linear sensor. Steve probably would have caught that in 10 minutes since he and his guys are not only familiar with the FE but also the CDS data system.

Just looked up airfare. $370 round trip flights to from Pueblo to Milwaukee

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Originally Posted by dsmithwc04

Steve, it appears you have a heavy bias.

The question was rhetorical. The answer FE.

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Hi Mr. Pot, meet Mr. Kettle...

dsmithwc04

I think you and I are not doing a very good of understanding what each other is talking about.

FV has been around for more than 50 years. FF is over 40 years old as a class. FC is a few years younger. And FB is not a realistic comparison to any of the classes you are listing. There are no spec classes anything like that old.

The oldest spec class is SRF. It came out at the same time as the DB1 Swift FF, 1984. I think you will find that there are a few samples of both cars that have been raced continuously over the years. I also will argue that the cost of racing a DB1 or a SRF are just not that much different over the decades. Interestingly, the rockers for a DB1 were the same price or less than the rockers on the SRF. FM may be older than SRF if you trace the heritage of that chassis back to its origins.

What is a new FE selling for. I ask that because it is a standard of preparation for a car to win the national championship. I doubt that a $20,000 FE will be up to the job any more than a FC of the same price. The fact that FE are selling at that large a discount to new or replacement costs is not a good sign.

I know one very good FF driver who gave FE a try and after a heavy crash went back to FF because of the cost to repair the FE. Way more expensive to fix than the same level of damage to his FF.

Converting to a Honda can be no more expensive than changing a Renault drive train to Ford in SRF. We have converted a 94 Citation and it did not even come close to $25,000.

Again, FE is a great class, and in many ways is a better choice for many club racers than FF or FC, or any development class.

Good to meet you Mr. Kettle. :D

This thread was meant as a discussion. I am curious why FE isn't a bigger class like SM. I'm completely open to others opinions as that is the best way to refine my own. When it comes to racecars, Steve has probably forgot more than I will ever know. But I don't think he likes the idea of a spec car in open wheel and I can understand why from his perspective. Afterall, what would he have to fiddle with on a car that can't be changed?

Here are the facts as I see them.

FE is cheap to buy relative to the other classes.
Has one of the most reliable engine/gearbox combos which is sealed to prevent cheating.
Is safe
No development costs
Is fun to drive and faster than most classes.
Anybody can learn to maintain it and without expensive tools.


Could it be made better? Sure. The shocks have no bump adjustment, the chassis has some built in understeer, and the gear ratios and spring rates can't be changed. But on the other hand, those are all beneficial as well. With no bump adjustment, gear ratio changes and spring rate changes you limit the variables in setup which gives everyone a more equal shot at getting it right. Don't we all want to the satisfaction of winning because we were the better driver that day, not because we had a deeper wallet and superior car?

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This thread was meant as a discussion. I am curious why FE isn't a bigger class like SM. I'm completely open to others opinions as that is the best way to refine my own.

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OK, here are my opinions of your facts. Before I begin, FE will never be as popular as SM for a lot of reasons not worth going through. At best you can strive to be the most popular open wheeled class.

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Here are the facts as I see them.

FE is cheap to buy relative to the other classes.

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That depends. For the average guy, FVs, FFs, F5/6s, FMs, and FCs can all be found for less than the most bargain basement FE available. If you mean a car ready to win a National championship then you have an argument. Most guys aren't planning to win the Runoffs. IMHO.

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Has one of the most reliable engine/gearbox combos which is sealed to prevent cheating.

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OK. Fits and Zetecs are pretty reliable but I suppose not any more so than an FE.

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Is safe

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As safe as any other open wheeled cars given relative speeds etc. Which class is not safe?

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No development costs

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OK

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Is fun to drive and faster than most classes.

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Having tried a few open wheeled cars myself, they are all fun. As for speed, FE lands just about in the middle. Faster that 4 classes, slower than 3. (OW classes.)

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Anybody can learn to maintain it and without expensive tools.

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I would say this is true for everything but FA and maybe FB, depending on how much development you are doing. A lot of maintenance skills will come from experience as you pointed out with your data problem and the ease with which the One Formula guys could have fixed it. I don't know what tools you are referring to so I don't have anything for you on that one.

It's a good class. It is just competing for drivers in an area where there are several alternatives.

Jim

About .05% of the SCCA club racers should chose the car they want to race based on how well it will translate as they climb the ladder to Indy.

For the other 99.95% you have folks who want to see how they stack up in "equal-ish" equipment and folks who enjoy the tinkering and engineering as much/more than the driving. Frankly, at different times I've wanted different things and see the merits of both.

How you want to spend your weeknights and weekends should make the choice easier.

It seems the typical price of an FE is $30 k. Certainly a fair price for a good car. You can buy many open wheel cars for $10k or less. Then you start repairing, rebuilding, adding whizzy bits and lightness, buying spares and end up with a $30 k car. For many Hobbie Racers, spending $$$ in small chunks fits their budget and they enjoy working on their cars.

FE is a great car. They were sold at an incredibly low price. They may be too spec for the diehard racer who wants to find every possible advantage in developing their cars.

Rotating assemblies made of Helium and such. :D

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Originally Posted by Jim Nash

OK, here are my opinions of your facts. Before I begin, FE will never be as popular as SM for a lot of reasons not worth going through. At best you can strive to be the most popular open wheeled class.

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Jim, I tried to make it clear in almost every post I made that we were talking about open wheel. I used SM as a reference because it obviously fills most peoples needs in tin top racing.

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That depends. For the average guy, FVs, FFs, F5/6s, FMs, and FCs can all be found for less than the most bargain basement FE available. If you mean a car ready to win a National championship then you you have an argument. Most guys aren't planning to win the Runoffs. IMHO.

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Again Jim, I made it very clear that being competitive was a main goal so we could keep to comparing apples to apples. And most guys that aren't planning to win the runoffs is probably because they can't afford a runoff capable car in their class, which again goes with my point.

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OK. Fits and Zetecs are pretty reliable but I suppose not any more so than an FE.
As safe as any other open wheeled cars given relative speeds etc. Which class is not safe?

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Jim, I never said any other class was not safe and I'm not sure why you thought I did.

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OK

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ok. :D

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Having tried a few open wheeled cars myself, they are all fun. As for speed, FE lands just about in the middle. Faster that 4 classes, slower than 3. (OW classes.)
I would say this is true for everything but FA and maybe FB, depending on how much development you are doing. A lot of maintenance skills will come from experience as you pointed out with your data problem and the ease with which the One Formula guys could have fixed it. I don't know what tools you are referring to so I don't have anything for you on that one.

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I never said this set FE apart from the rest, only that FE is easy to work on and meets that need. Why are you being so contrarian?

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It's a good class. It is just competing for drivers in an area where there are several alternatives.

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I agree, lets get rid of the alternatives. ;)



Well, I had hoped this thread could discuss what it is that is keeping FE from being as popular as I think it should be and what might be able to be done to show others how good we have it. I don't see any reason to further the discussion after seeing the direction this has taken. Happy holidays all and good luck next season.

Dan,

I thought your facts were to make a case for FEs over other classes. If that is not the case, I apologize for thinking otherwise. FE is a good class and there are equally good classes, depending on your perspective, competing with it.

Jim

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Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman

About .05% of the SCCA club racers should chose the car they want to race based on how well it will translate as they climb the ladder to Indy.

For the other 99.95% you have folks who want to see how they stack up in "equal-ish" equipment and folks who enjoy the tinkering and engineering as much/more than the driving. Frankly, at different times I've wanted different things and see the merits of both.

How you want to spend your weeknights and weekends should make the choice easier.

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As usual Daryl nails it. I really liked FE. Modern, roomy, etc.
But the numbers in my region are zilch and when I realized that I can't fix (most) everything myself I ended up in FC. That affects both time and money..

I understand the benefits of a spec class, but talent and experience is more often the problem than equal cars :D

Also, of that 120 or so FE cars I know several have been converted to FB.
Look at the FS discussion related the FM. They want to leave the spec.

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Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing

As usual Daryl nails it. I really liked FE. Modern, roomy, etc.
But the numbers in my region are zilch and when I realized that I can't fix (most) everything myself I ended up in FC. That affects both time and money..

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How much does it cost to be competitive in FC? Since I have no experience I can only go off of what I've heard so correct me if I'm wrong, but does it cost more to have different gear sets (plus maintenance), various spring rates, engines that are not competitive after a season or two of racing, $$$ spent keeping up with improvements to aero, suspension, chassis etc...

What is that extra cost compared to having to purchase spec parts when they brake rather than repair older, broken bits?


On another note, the NP01 looks like it has potential to be a healthy class. The value definitely appears to be there and I imagine the car is way safer than any open wheel class in the SCCA. It's $60k+ for the kit so I imagine it's still out of the price range of most club racers but it's not that expensive for what it is. Elan has the capacity to build 50 a year and if they get enough orders to approach that number then used cars could be bought with lower budgets. I think they've built 15-20 so far in it's infancy so that's a good sign.

6 speed sedev seq box with no-lift-shift with spec ratios
185hp 2.0L sealed motor (motor is capable of 250hp as is/room to grow if necessary in future)
Enclosed/caged cockpit (safer)
Spec tires (DOT Toyo slick)
Lots of aero downforce (Randy P. pulled near 1.9gs in a test session)
Comes loaded with data acquisition (AIM?)
Built by a reputable builder (Elan)
And it looks pretty darn cool for the market and price point it's in.

The NP01 looks cool, but has a major issue for a 65k kit +8k+ to assemble the car. The inboard CV is 2-3 inches forward of the outboard CV which causes drag and failures due to the driveshaft angle. Lap times seem to be a bit slower than FF.

I think we've been through this before. -
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...highlight=Np01

This car was involved in an on track incident with another car damaging that corner. The driver attempted to drive back to the pits at which point it failed. I'm really not sure what your agenda is here.

I finished in the top ten multiple times in the F2000 Championship series (arguably more competitive than the Run Offs) with a car we paid $18k for. The only major work we did to the car before competing was a refresh on the head.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chris Livengood

I finished in the top ten multiple times in the F2000 Championship series (arguably more competitive than the Run Offs) with a car we paid $18k for. The only major work we did to the car before competing was a refresh on the head.

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Chris, not to take away anything from your achievement, but I can only imagine that the top 3 cars running in the F2000 Championship series are spending much more than that on their cars, even more on running costs per weekend. How much does it cost to run F2000 champ series for a weekend and finish on the podium? Those guys are probably spending around half of what you paid for your entire car per weekend.

Costs the same to run an FE in 10th place as is does 1st place. That's the point I'm trying to convey.

The point was not the amount of money spent per weekend, rather that you can operate an FC car at an extreme level competitiveness for a small cost of entry (car purchase, not entry fee). I think you knew that though. Had I decided to run SCCA weekends I'm sure I would have won lots of races and probably could have been top 5 at the Run Offs. In fact the only club race I did compete in with that car I more or less dominated until my only set of tires starting falling off. I finished 2nd and had the fast lap of the race.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chris Livengood

The point was not the amount of money spent per weekend, rather that you can operate an FC car at an extreme level competitiveness for a small cost of entry (car purchase, not entry fee). I think you knew that though. Had I decided to run SCCA weekends I'm sure I would have won lots of races and probably could have been top 5 at the Run Offs. In fact the only club race I did compete in with that car I more or less dominated until my only set of tires starting falling off. I finished 2nd and had the fast lap of the race.

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Chris, you are missing the point of this thread. Car costs is a relatively small part of the equation. The actual cost to operate a car for a season is the main determining factor in why some guys either show up at the track or stay home.

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse to death at this point. FE is one of the cheapest open wheel cars to purchase, damn near the cheapest to operate, and has true parity. The fact that it isn't one of the more popular race groups has me perplexed. It doesn't fit all needs, but you have to look at the demograph of the average weekend warrior. How does high reliability, relative low cost to purchase and own, and parity (regardless of budget) not meet the needs of the many? Instead, I see plenty of folks spending the same money in other classes running at the back of the pack as they could running up front in FE.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dsmithwc04

How does high reliability, relative low cost to purchase and own, and parity (regardless of budget) not meet the needs of the many?

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See Spec Miata for answer

I chose FE over SM specifically. The minute I figured out that the costs of a competitive FE was similar to (or perhaps even lower than) the cost of a competitive SM it was a no brainer for me. I also live in an area where FE's are showing up to races so that is also a part of the equation.


It's undeniable that tin top cars own club racing in the US. NASA may end up looking pretty darn smart with the NP01 prototype car so it will be interesting to see how that class plays out over the next couple years.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dsmithwc04

Chris, you are missing the point of this thread. Car costs is a relatively small part of the equation. The actual cost to operate a car for a season is the main determining factor in why some guys either show up at the track or stay home.

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse to death at this point. FE is one of the cheapest open wheel cars to purchase, damn near the cheapest to operate, and has true parity. The fact that it isn't one of the more popular race groups has me perplexed. It doesn't fit all needs, but you have to look at the demograph of the average weekend warrior. How does high reliability, relative low cost to purchase and own, and parity (regardless of budget) not meet the needs of the many? Instead, I see plenty of folks spending the same money in other classes running at the back of the pack as they could running up front in FE.

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Twice now you have committed a tu quoque fallacy. You are conveniently breezing over my points rather than talking about their impact.

First off, I could have ran the aforementioned FC for the same entry fees as you by attending SCCA events. I used exactly one set of tires for the test day (twilight at MO) and two days of racing in that SCCA weekend example. If you are even mildly serious about FE you are going to buy at least one set of tires a weekend. Second off, the car was more than competitive for less than half the cost of low priced FE. That leaves a large amount of money for tires, car upgrades and maintenance, etc. Even then, I was able to purchase controls arms and many other parts for that car at half the price of FE parts, I know this because we campaigned an FE with a second driver simultaneously (in 2012). In summary, it was cheaper to run the FC in SCCA events than the FE car.

Let's also be honest about spec racing, beyond the price of monopolized parts, there are huge issues in the ways by which a serious competitor is forced to find technical advantage. And this is the true elephant in the room with regards to spec racing.

You have formed this discussion in a way that precludes achieving a logical answer. You feel the class is superior for a demographic, thusly it should be the best attended by that demographic. However, that is not reality. Instead of asking "why isn't FE better attended" you should be asking "why are other classes better attended." Rather than admit that many people see better value in the purchase of an FC (and many other classes) you continue to drive the opinion that FE is a better value. Put simply, the existing data indicates that either your definition of value is incorrect, or that those who participate disagree on the value of a given class thusly they chose a different class. At a minimum, your argument is one of potential false cause in that there is a good chance that people don't chose a class based on value but rather want.

Since our series was discussed....

I think if you feel you're flogging the expired equine, it might be because others don't agree with you. This thread has aspects of a PR piece for the FE rather than a discussion. One might take exception to your statement about the FE being the cheapest to buy, and operate.

One might also look at the actual performance of the FE, in comparison to another OW class, say FC or FF. There may be a reason why those two classes have survived so long and FE has, for all intent and purposes, stalled out at about 120. I certainly don't have an answer to many of the questions, but I tend to look at realities and economics.

Ok...Chris beat me to it, and said it better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dsmithwc04

I chose FE over SM specifically. The minute I figured out that the costs of a competitive FE was similar to (or perhaps even lower than) the cost of a competitive SM it was a no brainer for me. I also live in an area where FE's are showing up to races so that is also a part of the equation.

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So field sizes were not a part of your original decision? It's usually easier to join big fields that already exist than to try and talk people into jumping ship from their chosen class to play in yours.

Chris, I respect your opinion. I just don't agree with it.

First, you say that your $18k FC cost less than half that of a good FE. I bought mine for $25k with almost all upgrades, fresh motor and gearbox, and some other bits. The only thing keeping it from winning races at the moment is my inexperience as a driver. Another FE just sold for $20k that appeared to be just as competitive as my own.

Secondly, just about any class that you aim to be competitive in will require at least a new set of tires per weekend so I'm not sure what your point is there. A new set of tires on an FE are around $800 which isn't bad.

I seriously doubt the FC is cheaper than an FE with regards to the average cost of maintaining the engine over a 3-5 season span.

I don't see how I'm breezing over your points? You bring up that your car was only $18k to purchase but fail to acknowledge the importance of running costs in the big picture. You can probably run an FE in the runoffs with a chance of winning (driver dependant) for the same cost as running mid pack at an F2000 champ series race.

Furthermore, some classes are better attended, some are about the same, and some are worse. Open wheel racing has a serious problem across the board with participation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dsmithwc04

You can probably run an FE in the runoffs with a chance of winning (driver dependant) for the same cost as running mid pack at an F2000 champ series race.

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No, just no. That statement has no basis in reality.

You bought an FE. You like it. We get it. Just accept that the majority of the SCCA doesn't.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bob Wright

Since our series was discussed....

I think if you feel you're flogging the expired equine, it might be because others don't agree with you. This thread has aspects of a PR piece for the FE rather than a discussion. One might take exception to your statement about the FE being the cheapest to buy, and operate.

One might also look at the actual performance of the FE, in comparison to another OW class, say FC or FF. There may be a reason why those two classes have survived so long and FE has, for all intent and purposes, stalled out at about 120. I certainly don't have an answer to many of the questions, but I tend to look at realities and economics.

Ok...Chris beat me to it, and said it better.

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To be fair, this is in the FE forum and not the General forum. I was thinking I was going to be engaging with other FE guys in hopes to get a better understanding from those that have been in the game much longer than I.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 2BWise

So field sizes were not a part of your original decision? It's usually easier to join big fields that already exist than to try and talk people into jumping ship from their chosen class to play in yours.

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Of course field sizes were part of my original decision. That is exactly why I said was a part of the equation for me when I chose FE just a few posts ago.

This thread is not meant to talk people into joining FE. It was a thread made in the FE forum to see what other FE guys thought.

Point taken- Its the FE forum but you are referencing other classes and making comparisons so people jump in.

I would think one of the best ways to understand why the class is where it is would be to ask why drivers have left the class and why they've joined; especially to and from other OW classes.

Maybe that's really what you're trying to do with this thread?

I must be coming across in a totally different way than I imagined as it appears as though I am rubbing folks the wrong way. I truly regret even asking my question at this point. I've encountered so many good people willing to help answer technical questions, of which I am very grateful, that I didn't see how personal opinions and views must be approached much more delicately than I apparently understood. Perhaps we should just move on and let this thread get buried.

On my part no disrespect was intended. None at all, I enjoy a lively discussion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dsmithwc04

Costs the same to run an FE in 10th place as is does 1st place. That's the point I'm trying to convey.

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I have to step in and disagree.

The guy running in first place is spending a LOT more, because he is getting a lot more seat time. That seat time is being used to generate comfort in the car and dial his setup n to within very fine shades of perfection.

In fact, I would suggest that in a spec class, it is harder to win, because you cannot just engineer your way into a faster car and go drive it without hitting the sweet spot on every last item.

Compare to F500/F600 this year at Daytona. Jay build a phenomenal car, with drag far lower than anything out there. Put it in the hands of Cal Stewart, and he walks away from the field with plenty of margin. He could have missed the setup by enough to be mid-pack in a spec class, and would still have won that race because the car was just that much better. That's not happening in FE - you have to have the seat time.

Let me be clear - I'm not suggesting that this is a problem. In fact it is the reason lots of guys choose a spec class.

I will agree with you on the cost per event, with one caveat:

You have to keep the car off the walls. Crash damage is expensive in FE. Everything else is cheap - tires, engine rebuilds, tuning parts, etc.

Chris, you are the exception to the rule. Very few racers are as good as you are at prepping, understanding and getting the most from their cars. Great job. But most of the drivers in your class are not like you.

Steve, I don't think I have EVER seen an engineer at a race with an FE competitor unless it was a USF2000 event. And those are not the guys that are the focus of this post. FE club racers are.

For a get in and win class, FE is the open wheel option that seems to suit most drivers according to the author of this thread.

The question of the post is why aren't more people getting into the FE to FE competitors. Plain and simple. The other classes being brought into the discussion were for cost and ease of winning comparison. The other classes were not being slammed, just used for measuring the ease of winning and being competitive.

The thought I get from the thread is: FE guys, why are there not more drivers in the class?

One more point, Van Diemen (Elan) will only sell batches of new cars to Enterprises. If you are interested in a new FE, call the CSR and get on a list. When the new car order quota is met, the order will be sent to Elan for new cars. It's business for both sides. Van Diemen wants to manufacture a batch and Enterprises does not want to have multiple car kits taking up space until they are sold. My .02 here is if Elan wants to sell cars and I don't think they are at max capacity these days, make a few and see if they move. The more cars that are out there the more parts they sell. But I am not on the inside and don't know the business plan for that idea. (Another thread probably...)

As a past FF driver, I had to constantly update the car ( 2 to 4 times a year), latest header, suspension, engine, tires, brakes, CV joints, etc until it was just to expensive to keep the car running up front. With the FE, one car has it all. Yes, there were updates to the FE but spread out and most of them were not that expensive. If you buy a kit now, all of those updates are included.

Hope everyone has a great 2016, see you at the races!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mick Robinson

Chris, you are the exception to the rule. Very few racers are as good as you are at prepping, understanding and getting the most from their cars. Great job. But most of the drivers in your class are not like you.

Steve, I don't think I have EVER seen an engineer at a race with an FE competitor unless it was a USF2000 event. And those are not the guys that are the focus of this post. FE club racers are.

For a get in and win class, FE is the open wheel option that seems to suit most drivers according to the author of this thread.

The question of the post is why aren't more people getting into the FE to FE competitors. Plain and simple. The other classes being brought into the discussion were for cost and ease of winning comparison. The other classes were not being slammed, just used for measuring the ease of winning and being competitive.

The thought I get from the thread is: FE guys, why are there not more drivers in the class?

One more point, Van Diemen (Elan) will only sell batches of new cars to Enterprises. If you are interested in a new FE, call the CSR and get on a list. When the new car order quota is met, the order will be sent to Elan for new cars. It's business for both sides. Van Diemen wants to manufacture a batch and Enterprises does not want to have multiple car kits taking up space until they are sold. My .02 here is if Elan wants to sell cars and I don't think they are at max capacity these days, make a few and see if they move. The more cars that are out there the more parts they sell. But I am not on the inside and don't know the business plan for that idea. (Another thread probably...)

As a past FF driver, I had to constantly update the car ( 2 to 4 times a year), latest header, suspension, engine, tires, brakes, CV joints, etc until it was just to expensive to keep the car running up front. With the FE, one car has it all. Yes, there were updates to the FE but spread out and most of them were not that expensive. If you buy a kit now, all of those updates are included.

Hope everyone has a great 2016, see you at the races!

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In 2005, the popularity of open wheel classes was as follows:
FV #2 (650 entries)
FA #3 (549 entries)
FC #4 (514 entries)
FF #10 (404 entries)
FM #12 (368 entries)
F500 #15 (329 entries)

That's pre FE & FB. The big dog that year was SRF (1,320 entries)


In 2010, it looked like this mid-season (the only numbers I could find)
FV #4 (389 entries)
FF #6 (321 entries)
FM #8 (268 entries)
FE #10 (245 entries)
F5 #11 (231 entries)
FC #12 (228 entries)
FA #15 (198 entries)
FB #20 (154 entries)

Top dog that year was SM (1,142 entries) followed by SRF (982 entries)

In 2015, this was the the picture:
FV #5 (301 entries)
FF #6 (246 entries)
FE #18 (125 entries)
FB #19 (122 entries) tied
F5 #19 (122 entries) tied
FC #21 (108 entries)
FM #22 (106 entries)

Again, the top dog is SM (792 entries).

The entries for the two opening Majors races in Florida are as follows:

Homestead: FA 7, FB 4, FC 4, FE 3, FF 12, FM 1, FV 9, F5 6
Sebring: FA 9, FB 4, FC 3, FE 5, FF 16, FM 1, FV 7, F5 4


The cheapest cars to acquire & run are going to be FV & F5. F5's are significantly faster than FV and I doubt they cost that much more to run, and yet FV has consistently been in the top 5 in popularity in Nationals / Majors racing while F5 can't crack the top 10.

The next step is FF, which has pretty consistently been in the top 10, and may top FV in class participation this year. A relatively strong pro series hasn't harmed club racing numbers. With the spec tire rule in place it will be even easier to skip between both club & pro races.

The class I started open wheel racing in, FM, is probably still cheaper overall than FE as long as you don't need to get a motor rebuilt. The gearboxes need some extra maintenance but the spares are still way cheaper. Plus the simpler aero means it's a simpler beast to tune than an FE car.

I'd put FE on the next tier for expense. The spares are kind of pricey even compared to FF / FC type cars and the multi-element wing packages can be a pain to tune. Still, it's a reliable spec package and fully developed at this point.

FC is next on on the tier of expense. Spares are actually cheaper than FE but the engines aren't as bulletproof and you can toss a lot of money at ideal aero packages for different tracks. At one point this was an extremely popular class but it seems that while the pro series is doing well the class is on life support at the club level.

FB comes in next, mostly because these cars seem to go through a lot of engines. Faster than FA at many tracks. This class hasn't seemed to have really caught on in spite of the fact that it offers better bang for the buck than an FA.

FA is probably the most volatile classes. Sometimes it's in the top 10 in popularity, other times less so. The cars are ridiculously expensive to acquire and maintain compared to anything else here, and the fact only the really rich can enjoy them probably explains the class volatility.


Now, logically the class participation numbers should follow the order I've put for expenses, and yet this isn't the case. F5 probably offers more bang for the buck than FF, and yet FF is much more popular.

From my own experience, I went with FM when I started open wheel racing rather than FE because the FE was too new and I really didn't want to learn how to deal with pushrod suspension AND multi-element wings as well as the other complexities of open wheel. Had FF had the Honda package in 2002 I might have gone that route instead. After about a decade in FM where we won SARRC and two National championships we moved to FF, and won the inaugural F1600 pro race, and we've been able to run competitively with every platform we've had in that class.

FM still has a lot of positives even if the engine costs have skyrocketed. For one thing you can get cars for as little as $10,000 and even if an engine rebuild costs almost as much you've got a package that's nearly as fast as FC or FE and can be had for less than half the cost. And yet the class is pretty much dead.

As some have said, FF is a class you can sink a bunch of money on. I haven't had that experience myself, but then again things like trick headers aren't really an option on the Fit motor and from my experience in various tin-top classes I tend to regard a lot of the "trick parts" as the motorsports equivalent of snake oil. I've managed to get through whole Majors weekends on a single set of the R45 bias plys and from my own testing this year I'm confident I can run competitively using a single set of the new radials for two Majors weekends. It's insane how well the new tires last.

It seems to me that for a variety of reasons the Spec formula car thing isn't working in club racing. I can't really offer an explanation for why that is because it appears to me that the decision making process racers use to pick race cars isn't strictly rational. If it was the participation numbers would be in line with the costs I've outlined. At a guess I'd say the people that want to run spec cars are finding SRF & SM more attractive.

FE never really seemed to take off nationally. It had the best participation numbers in the Southeast. In fact I recall numerous events where it was the most highly attended open wheel class. Lately the numbers have dropped off. As I said I might have gone with FE had FM not existed and been strong at the time, or I might not have jumped in at all.

Even in the Southeast the numbers have been down the last couple of years, so as others have said somebody maybe needs to talk to those former competitors and ask them why they left the class.