FSV chassis?

Hey All,

Was hunting for an FV to convert to AX/hill climb and have run across this chassis:
(below)

Appears to possibly be a former FSV conversion, like one of the Indy 500 'Parade Cars', I've read about elsewhere on this site. Wondering if the rocker arm front suspension, with enclosed A-arms is familiar to anyone here? (or where else I might post to ask)?

It's got VW drums all around. (nickel plated?), and a VW transaxle. Everything's safety wired
and the tube frame has great looking welds and gusseting… And doesn't look like 'home-brewed'

It's got no log books, or records, but does have USAC stickers on the roll bar.

Thanks in advance for any insights anyone might offer.
I currently AX a 'big 4' Porsche 914 and race a VW Fastback in LeMons btw…

Thanks for your time!

-Ric

This is most likely a parade car. It for shure is not a SCCA FSV.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by S Lathrop

This is most likely a parade car. It for shure is not a SCCA FSV.

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Thanks for your reply. Curious, as I'm a newbie to open wheel world - what design specifics makes it so obviously "shure not a SCCA FSV" — For my own education.

Thanks for your time!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Plan B

Thanks for your reply. Curious, as I'm a newbie to open wheel world - what design specifics makes it so obviously "shure not a SCCA FSV" — For my own education.

Thanks for your time!

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The FSV's were monocoque ( aluminum airplane construction) chassis but otherwise were very similar the Formula Fords of the time ("70's and early '80's). Wheels were 6 inch fronts and 8" rears, same as FC today. Engines were type 2 and type 3 VW. A few cars were tube frames. The class required that many of the parts be derived from VWs. Swing axel rear ends were not used, nor was the VW Beatle front end, as was the case for Formula Vee.

In the late ,70's the class converted to VW Rabbit engines and the cars became very similar to European F3

Just to clarify-all the FSV's were NOT monocoque! The 1970 Caldwell D10 FSV was space frame just like the Caldwell D9 FF and others like the Zink's. The monocoque started appearing in the mid '70's. And from 1978 on were water cooled Rabbitt engines.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TED K.

Just to clarify-all the FSV's were NOT monocoque! The 1970 Caldwell D10 FSV was space frame just like the Caldwell D9 FF and others like the Zink's. The monocoque started appearing in the mid '70's. And from 1978 on were water cooled Rabbitt engines.

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The Zink Z9 was monocoque and it was one of the first FSV built. The Z11 was tube and the Z14 was monocoque. Monocoques were more numerous.

I think the Lola 250 & 252 were tube frame FSV's?

Mark

88' Citation 002'

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Amon

I think the Lola 250 & 252 were tube frame FSV's?

Mark

88' Citation 002'

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I was wondering that. The 350s were monocoque.

As were the 322 and 324's monocoque....

Mark

88' Citation 002'

Some of the earliest AC Super Vees were tube frame.
Lola 250-252
Beach
Caldwell
Zeitler
The Royale and the Tui had tubs.

looks like a sixties vee converted into whatever it is/was

Interesting how they used the kingpin spindles and made them work with the upper and lower A arms...
Does it have swing axle trans.?

autocross OK

i would not hillclimb in that thing

recommend that you obtain some other vehicle

Hey Ric,
Did you buy this car or is it still available ?
It's just a Roller or with Engine ?
I may be interested if you don't. ????
Thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Blaze

Hey Ric,
Did you buy this car or is it still available ?
It's just a Roller or with Engine ?
I may be interested if you don't. ????
Thanks

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Yeah,

I'm a big fan of 'specials' and someone 'went to town' on this car. It came with 15" Halibrand magnesium knock-offs identical to the Ford GT 40 style. These are worth what I paid for the car. It has a matching, enclosed wedge trailer that was built for this car.

I'm going to bare-chassis rebuild it over the winter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HayesCages

Interesting how they used the kingpin spindles and made them work with the upper and lower A arms...
Does it have swing axle trans.?

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Yep…Nickel plated swing axle transaxle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dd46637

Some of the earliest AC Super Vees were tube frame.
Lola 250-252
Beach
Caldwell
Zeitler
The Royale and the Tui had tubs.

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Yeah…

I'm finding many early SV's that look similar. Other Lola Formula cars as well.
Pre-monocoque Lotus too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by provamo

autocross OK

i would not hillclimb in that thing

recommend that you obtain some other vehicle

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Yeah; I wouldn't hill climb with the drum brake set up1

However, there's nothing suspect about the build of this chassis. It's beautifully designed, welded and gusseted. All the hardware is grade 8 allen-head and safety wired. Shocks are adjustable Carrera coil-overs, trailing arm buck-ups are over-built. etc.

The chassis around foot well appears more robust than similar 'name' tube frame chassis
of the era.

It does need an updated roll hoop as well.

What specifically troubles you about the chassis design?

Thanks!

How about other mid-sixties 'Formula' cars?

The body work for this 'thing?' looks very close to the Lola T-60, F2 - windscreen mounted mirrors and all.

Plan B

that car was NEVER a FSV.......most likely a mid to later sixties FV that was crashed and had the current front end grafted on

i do not think you will be able to bump-steer that front end

the rockers look "unfinished"

i do not like the design/placement/bearings at the lower half of the front spindles

that being said.......go for it, knock yourself out and have fun (repeat:HAVE FUN!).....can't do too much damage at an autocross

any rear end views??

If you can post more pictures it would make it much easier to ID but it looks very similar to my old Viper FV, built in Salem/Portland OR in 1963. 2 chassis were built with 2 additional kits sold so it could be one of those. Our old one is still in Spokane.
I have pretty extensive pictures of the frame and what-not.
The chassis is definitely not a Lola. Looking at the trailing arm mounts, it's all Vee stuff.
We had a T-62, they were a steel mono chassis. T-60 were tubular?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by provamo

Plan B

that car was NEVER a FSV.......most likely a mid to later sixties FV that was crashed and had the current front end grafted on

i do not think you will be able to bump-steer that front end

the rockers look "unfinished"

i do not like the design/placement/bearings at the lower half of the front spindles

that being said.......go for it, knock yourself out and have fun (repeat:HAVE FUN!).....can't do too much damage at an autocross

any rear end views??

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Thanks for your interest.

NEVER said it was a FSV — Trying to figure out what it is/was.

There's no "crash" evidence, and the tube frame geometry/alignment looks very purposely designed to the A-arm truss.

Can you explain what you see as "unfinished" about the rockers? I've got the shop, tools and skills and plan to restore/update the car over the winter and would live to hear your thoughts on how they could/should be finished?"

I have no intention of "doing any damage" - autocrossing or otherwise!

Also, on your placement of the bearings on the "lower half of the spindles" — take a look at the closer pic and let me know more specifically what you're seeing?

I'll post a few pics of the rear view in another post.

Thanks again for your thoughts/insights.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HayesCages

If you can post more pictures it would make it much easier to ID but it looks very similar to my old Viper FV, built in Salem/Portland OR in 1963. 2 chassis were built with 2 additional kits sold so it could be one of those. Our old one is still in Spokane.
I have pretty extensive pictures of the frame and what-not.
The chassis is definitely not a Lola. Looking at the trailing arm mounts, it's all Vee stuff.
We had a T-62, they were a steel mono chassis. T-60 were tubular?

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Thanks for your interest. I'm posting a few additional pics — but these are what I took when I first viewed the car. I have since purchased it but it's still in the enclosed trailer until I get
another car out of the shop.

It's definitely got Vee DNA , and seems to have been set up to race. (not parade). Even the color-matched, enclosed trailer has build-in, flip-up steel wheel chocks that perfectly align with the wheel base, a drop out rear/center floor panel for servicing the engine and transaxle from below and a suspended tire rack for a complete set of 4 spare tires/wheels. Why would any one bother with details like this for a 'parade car'?

It's fun to try and decrypt all the 40 year old clues!

Here's some add'l pics:

This is a Shrin parade car. The wheels are the item that convinces me. This car was never built for any type of competition.

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Originally Posted by S Lathrop

This is a Shrin parade car. The wheels are the item that convinces me. This car was never built for any type of competition.

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Thanks. From what I've been told (local Indy 500 folks) ; Some of the 'Parade Cars' were repurposed from early FV, FSV and F? cars. Many built by hall of fame builder Grant King.

Kind of crazy that a parade car would be safety wired everywhere, built with a rocker arm suspension, carerra coil overs and rolled in a custom trailer with spare wheels, etc.

Sorry…Your knee-jerk dismissal doesn't add up. Esp. given that you haven't seen the car.

Those wheels will pay for a nice start on converting this to a fun AutoXer regardless!

Thanks for your time!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by S Lathrop

This is a Shrin parade car. The wheels are the item that convinces me. This car was never built for any type of competition.

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No thoughts on the bearing position on the spindles, unfinished rockers etc?

Carrera coil-over shocks were one of the cheapest on the market, that's probably why they used them.
The chassis really looks like an old FV to a lot of us.
Do you have pictures of the nose? It would've needed a hole in the front for a radiator if it ever came with a water-cooled engine.
The engine bay will be quite short as well.
The battery on the front tells most it could an old FV.

What is the wheel base? If it's an old Vee it'll probably be about 6" longer than with the beam front end.

It'll make a great A/X car though! Might want to size-down the wheels. I tried my old FV A/X with 10" front and 12" rear wheels once. Just made it handle worse, with the swing axle, king pin front end and all...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HayesCages

Carrera coil-over shocks were one of the cheapest on the market, that's probably why they used them.
The chassis really looks like an old FV to a lot of us.
Do you have pictures of the nose? It would've needed a hole in the front for a radiator if it ever came with a water-cooled engine.
The engine bay will be quite short as well.
The battery on the front tells most it could an old FV.

What is the wheel base? If it's an old Vee it'll probably be about 6" longer than with the beam front end.

It'll make a great A/X car though! Might want to size-down the wheels. I tried my old FV A/X with 10" front and 12" rear wheels once. Just made it handle worse, with the swing axle, king pin front end and all...

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Thanks!
Yeah; It seems to be a repurposed old FV…With a 'wanna-be'? Lotus-style rocker suspension
replacing the VW beam. The nose is open though? The engine bay is really short. Adding disc brakes won't be a big deal — should be a blast to AX!

If you were thinking it was an old FF or something faster it would've needed a hole in the nose for radiator cooling, that's all.

If you have no nose to share a picture of than we can assume it is an old Vee.

The repurposed VW link-pin front end may be interesting to dial in. Drum brakes are fine for A/X.
Does it have a 4 bolt wheel pattern or the old wide 5?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Plan B

No thoughts on the bearing position on the spindles, unfinished rockers etc?

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Max speed for those cars might be 30 mph. They were all about show. The rocker will work as is but looked right from the outside. The seat is for a big guy and most of those guys were big. Also there is some crome.

But the wheels with the knock off nut in the center is the part that told me it was a show car.

I love the wheels !

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HayesCages

If you were thinking it was an old FF or something faster it would've needed a hole in the nose for radiator cooling, that's all.

If you have no nose to share a picture of than we can assume it is an old Vee.

The repurposed VW link-pin front end may be interesting to dial in. Drum brakes are fine for A/X.
Does it have a 4 bolt wheel pattern or the old wide 5?

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It does have a hole in the nose. And the battery tray up front looks like it was built for a radiator mount, not a battery.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by S Lathrop

Max speed for those cars might be 30 mph. They were all about show. The rocker will work as is but looked right from the outside. The seat is for a big guy

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I'm 5' 11" and 165lbs an can BARELY fit in an operable position in the cock-pit…So no, it's not "big guy" cockpit.

Why safety-wire everything on a car intended to go 30mph? Or build a custom? rocker-arm front suspension for that matter? Why a trailer with spare wheels and a false floor engine / trans access panel, etc?

Too many weird anomalies to jump to 'parade car' classification without seeing the car,
including the earlier-mentioned 'USAC Certified' stickers on the roll bar. Certified to go 30mph in a parade doesn't quite make sense?

Was a fez included in the sale?

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Originally Posted by HayesCages

Was a fez included in the sale?

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Just a clown nose…But it's got it's own log book (the nose), so everyone takes it very seriously.

Logbook from who?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HayesCages

Logbook from who?

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The Shriners … of course! ; )

Quote:

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Originally Posted by S Lathrop

The FSV's were monocoque ( aluminum airplane construction) chassis but otherwise were very similar the Formula Fords of the time ("70's and early '80's). Wheels were 6 inch fronts and 8" rears, same as FC today. Engines were type 2 and type 3 VW. A few cars were tube frames. The class required that many of the parts be derived from VWs. Swing axel rear ends were not used, nor was the VW Beatle front end, as was the case for Formula Vee.

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( Scroll to bottom of list)

The Original Formula Super Vee Series Specifications:

o Engine: Type 3 1600cc (actually a stroke of 69mm and a bore of 85.5mm for
a displacement of 1582cc). Dry sump not allowed.
o Cooling: air, with external oil coolers and oil filters.
o Carburetion: free, however most used Weber 48 IDA or Solex 40P11 dual
downdraft. Some use of Weber IDF and DCNF. (Note: two dual
down draft cards allowed, any manufacturer with dual port VW
or aftermarket intake manifolds).
o Transmission: stock VW from the 1969 Square back/fastback series. However,
gear ratios were open and almost immediately Webster and
Hewland gear sets were adopted for the VW transaxle.
o Ignition: coil and distributor.
o Clutch: VW stock, with Hydraulic linkage.
o Brakes: Girling hydraulic with VW discs front, VW Drums in the rear.
o Wheels: 6" X 13" front and rear. Magnesium allowed.
o Tires: 5:00/8:30 X 13 front, Treaded (no slicks) 5:50/9/20 X 13 rear, Treaded
(no slicks)
o Steering: Rack and Pinion
o Suspension: free, front and rear
o Shocks: free, front and rear
o Sway bars: free, front and rear
o Rear uprights: free (and usually proprietary by car manufacturer)
o Curb Weight: Dry, without driver, 825 lbs minimum.
o Wheelbase: free (most manufacturers were between 88" and 94")
o Track, Front/Rear: Up to 92"
o Fuel Tank Capacity: Free, but most manufacturers located the tank under
and behind the driver but in front of the firewall,
which pretty much limited the capacity to 6.0 gallons.
o Construction: tubular space frame, flat bottom, no wings or tabs to induce
downforce.

Plan B,
Did you ever find anything out about this Chassis? I just purchased one that looks just like it in alot of ways.
Dinomd

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Plan B

Hey All,

Was hunting for an FV to convert to AX/hill climb and have run across this chassis:
(below)

Appears to possibly be a former FSV conversion, like one of the Indy 500 'Parade Cars', I've read about elsewhere on this site. Wondering if the rocker arm front suspension, with enclosed A-arms is familiar to anyone here? (or where else I might post to ask)?

It's got VW drums all around. (nickel plated?), and a VW transaxle. Everything's safety wired
and the tube frame has great looking welds and gusseting… And doesn't look like 'home-brewed'

It's got no log books, or records, but does have USAC stickers on the roll bar.

Thanks in advance for any insights anyone might offer.
I currently AX a 'big 4' Porsche 914 and race a VW Fastback in LeMons btw…

Thanks for your time!

-Ric

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Amon

I think the Lola 250 & 252 were tube frame FSV's?

Mark

88' Citation 002'

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I own a restored T250 HU09 and a T252 HU26, a work in progress, both tube frame cars. I also own a water cooled aluminum tub T328 HU97, 1 of 2 built. Just say'in..........

FGM

https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...id=95686&stc=1

Looks like someone cut off the front rocker suspension from a formula car and scabbed in onto that behemoth.........

FGM

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Plan B

Hey All,

Was hunting for an FV to convert to AX/hill climb and have run across this chassis:
(below)

Appears to possibly be a former FSV conversion, like one of the Indy 500 'Parade Cars', I've read about elsewhere on this site. Wondering if the rocker arm front suspension, with enclosed A-arms is familiar to anyone here? (or where else I might post to ask)?

It's got VW drums all around. (nickel plated?), and a VW transaxle. Everything's safety wired
and the tube frame has great looking welds and gusseting… And doesn't look like 'home-brewed'

It's got no log books, or records, but does have USAC stickers on the roll bar.

Thanks in advance for any insights anyone might offer.
I currently AX a 'big 4' Porsche 914 and race a VW Fastback in LeMons btw…

Thanks for your time!

-Ric

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Ran across a SV that ran first SV race in Germany (SV started in US, moved back across the ocean)...1971 German logbook (pre dates SCCA books), definitely was early car with tube chassis, air cooled, no major areo. Sold early into US via B. Noble, raced in MW, then put into storage back about 1975/6 (Owner actually built loft in his new house back then to store this bit of history). Thought way cool, I just couldn't pull the trigger on another project at the time....

Attached is a picture from the Logbook.

Went to another racer in KS last spring, was to restore/return it to the world......

As to the other car that started this thread, think all are correct about parade car...not much value, where as this Fuchs....priceless? All in the eye of the beholder, to be sure...

Bob L.

HayesCages,
Sorry to labor on a really old thread but I just bought a Indy 500 Shrine Club car that is exactly like (but a different car) the one that "Plan B" was writing about in 2014. Mine is the same as his in every picture. He doesn't mention the engine but mine has a 62 Corvair 102 hp engine in it. I have pictures of the previous owner, Jim Shillington, in the car in the 1970s and he was a Murat Shrine member. The old pictures show that Jim also had the Hallibrand knock off wheels on his car so somebody was making these cars if even just for the Shriners Indy 500 Club. Someone sent me a video of these cars on the Indy track in 1972 and I can see this car in the video #15. I continue to try to find out the maker of the chassis and it is apparent that more than one was made. I contacted Grant King Race Shops new owner and he said he didn't think it was theirs. There is a large "K" in the upholstery on the headrest and there is a star on top of the front nose with the letters "KKN" (The center K is much larger sort of like a monogram). I plan on making mine into a show car Ferrari 312 replica. If anyone has any ideas they are appreciated.
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...id=95764&stc=1