Zetec in FC

I know this subject has been covered in depth more than once on this site. However, I just received my June issue of Sportscar and saw that on page F-123, item 1 under the formula section says:

"Move FF2000 Zetec motor cars from FA to FC. Tabled for research on specifications."

What does this mean? Obviously the HP specs on the two cars are vastly different. Does this mean that they are beginning to look at options for coming up with some kind of equivelency (sp?) package for the pinto motors? Or possibly reclassing the Pinto cars? They wouldn't just move them (Zetecs) without doing something to equalize the performance...or would they? :confused:

My bet is................it's open for discussion!

If anyone has anything to say about this, this is the time to get to your RE and let him/her know how you feel about this.

With the # of Zetec's out there, and on the way, I think it is inevitable they will end up in FC.
Hey, isn't that just what they are??

Us poor soles will have to begin the migration to..........something :(

Dont worry GR, it will be a while before they are in CFC. It doesn't matter anyway with the times you have been running. Maybe they will apply a one lap handicap.

I'm not sure what writing your RE will do. Write the Comp Board with a well measured response. Let them know your feelings, your experiences in maintaining your 2 liter and how hard/easy it is to find engine parts. Address any increase in costs you feel might arise from an increase in 2 liter power (i.e. gearbox, driveline, etc.) If you have any constructive suggestions on how to address this issue include them.

As far as I know the research revolves around several possibilities for an equivalency formula. However, this ranges from increasing the power of the 2 liter wth a kit of some sort to de-tuning the Zetec to bring it in line with the 2 liter, and anything in between.

Let the Board know how you feel these options would affect your racing costs and your abilities & desires to continue in the class. Give them some hard data to work with.

Thanks Chas. Good points!

So, after all the complaining in the other thread about FMs in FC classes, you'll now have to contend with FMs, FCs, FZs, and....FSCCA! Given that FSCCA is touting their 165hp to beet the pants off the FC cars I'm thinking there'll be some faster cars in the hands of folks on a mission. Hmm. Should prove exciting.

Geez... Can't we just do a minor up grade on the Pinto for a little more H.P. add a little weight to the Zetec and then we can have an "All Scate" at the track. We could pass FM's on the staights and keep up with the other classes elsewhere.
I just love getting this argument going! :D

Sorry, I didn't think Skate looked right spelled with a "c"
I get "D" in spelling

My crystal ball says that they'll detune the Ztec not uprate the pinto. I think this is a mistake because the Ztec's injection alone makes it a much better power plant...even with the same hp as a good pinto. Further down the line I see FC becoming much like FF. You have FC become Ztec, SFC '90 to '97 pinto powered cars and 89 and earlier become CFC.

Thanks Michael for not forgetting us old guys in the old cars! ;)

Each month the board recieves letters proposing all sorts of rule changes. Basically they can't ignore a formal request. They must reject it, table it for further review and/or present it to the membership for discussion, or even approve it. And whatever action they chose must be posted in Sportscar so that all know that the formal request wasn't lost nor ignored.

They did receive a well written proposal from a highly reputable engine builder proposing a move to Zetec power in FC. Contained in that proposal were the torque and HP readings for three engine configurations; SCCA pinto, Pro Zetec, and Pinto with a bolt-on carb/cam kit. I don't have a copy of the letter so I don't dare quote those figures. The engine builder seeing as how Zetecs are great fun to drive, have a long duty cycle, and are not bothered by FMs, was proposing the boosting of the pintos maybe to a comparable level of the Zetec, then let both run in FC. The thought at that time was not to slow Zetecs down, but to speed pintos up.
The board upon discussion decided to request information on possibly detuning the Zetec down to pinto numbers. That information was not available in the original letter, but has since been requested by the board of the engine builder, who is attempting to test different methodologies to detune the Zetec without having to touch the ECU. The plan would be for this detuning device to be an easy bolt-on, and for the pro series to not be detuned.
Thus in this month's Sportscar is the statement that the board has requested more information.
OBTW, The engine builder has been the first to say that controlled track testing of these options would be needed to obtain really accurate data.
Maybe in the next month the board will get some "de-tuned" Zetec data. Then I expect we will be reading in a future Sportscar a request from the board for membership input before they make any decisions.
I think the board wants to be careful not to obsolete cars belonging to many participants that currently run at a high national level, and/or qualify for the runoffs, unless of course those participants agree to a change. The board has expressed some concern that bumping the pinto up may shorten it's duty cycle, whereas de-tuning the Zetec may not adversely affect it.
It seems to be common knowledge in and around Topeka that the new FSCCA car is about 3 to 4 seconds a lap slower than the pro-configured Zetecs. They express this to not to be a problem in their minds in terms of the demographic they hope to market the new car to.

My own opinion here... Detuning the zetec seems like the wrong way to go. Why drag them back among the FMs? And potentially the new FSCCA will be in about the same lap time area as the FMs, which will make that dilemma even more accute. I say boost the pinto even if it drops it from a 15 hour motor to a 12 hour motor. But that is just my opinion. If I had the clank, I'd be in a Zetec today.
Furthermore, as a regional clubbie I don't think my opinion should carry as much weight as that of a Mark Defer, or DaveW, etc. who would be directly effected on a national level and at the Runoffs.
So stay tuned. Check next month's Sportscar for a request for member input.

P.S The engine builder is thinking about possibly posting the numbers on this site and having us carry on a civil discussion of the pros and cons of each configuration. Of course such a web discussion would carry no real weight, but may help all of us formulate intelligent letters to the board in the future.

frog,
on the contrary, if the change affected regional racing as well as national racing, i think regional racer's voices should carry fully as much weight as national guys.

mark

Good point Mark.
But on the regional level we pinto guys could fall into FS or CFC. Maybe I should have said that it doesn't effect me as much because I'm in CFC. Anyway, we regional guys still have a class to race in. (We could lock the divisional CFC rules in with pinto power. For that matter a division could even create a regional FC pinto class.) But for you serious national guys, you would have to follow any mandate or not have a class to race in. That was the rationale for my belief that you guys should have a stronger vote, because it effects you more directly.
I think Zetec is the way to go for the future of FC on the national level. Having said that, I personnally wouldn't want to skew the polls by voting for a change for Zetec, when I honestly know that deep down in my wallet I can only afford to run pinto, pinto update, or nothing at all.
Half jokingly, if the vintage organizations ever drop their entry fees down to SCCA regional levels, I may go vintage. My car is about old enough, and there are NO FMs in vintage! [img]smile.gif[/img]

I have a problem with a motor builder suggesting that a well established class with hundreds of chassis/motors in circulation should change all their motors out to allow a couple of dozen recently sold cars to fit into it. Why? So the motor builder (or SCCA Enterprises for that matter) can sell hundreds of retro-fit motors, black boxes, injection units, etc? National asked the comp board to fit the Zetec powered cars into an existing class and it was done. It is called FA. Allow older chassis with Zetec power to run as FS or FA. I saw this as a done deal. FC continues to be one of the top entered classes. We don't need those cars in our class. Am I missing something?

Rob Poma

Rob the evolution of the class is the Ztec. It's a better motor plain and simple. If we all had the choice, money not being a problem, most of us would plunk down the dough for one. Why? The are faster with more hp and torque with a much much longer life span. It is inevitable that this car will become the next FC, in the same way SuperVee went from air to water to FA. The long view is for this class to survive it has to become more modern. If I hit the lotto I'll buy one the following day. Untill that time I'll continue to drive my pinto powered car untill the time that the Ztecs become affordable (I'd guess about 4 years).

Seems to me like this...

Most people feel that the Zetec engine package is the way to go. Many have said "If I had the money", I would have a Zetec. IF that is the case, the ones with the money already have the Zetec...so why should the ones without (currently driving pintos) have to upgrade their motors (I have yet to see an inexpensive engine anything part) to stay in the same class?

Although I agree it would be a shame to detune the Zetec, I don't want to have to spend major $$$ on what may be a shorter living motor just to keep up. If I had the bucks to do that, I'd be in a Zetec now.

This situation deserves a lot of careful thought before actions are taken.

The best way to look at the expense to see if it is worth it to you individually is to total the costs over a lifespan of some sort, whether it be by hours, miles, or years.

Here are some numbers to contemplate - I won't vouch for the accuracy as I'm going off of memory of old conversations.

The Zetec conversion costs something like $10-12K, with rebuilds down in the $2500-$3000 range. Experience at QS showed pro motors with around 5000 miles with little to no HP drop. (What the reliability is beyond that mileage I don't know, but it may be possible to run 6-7K miles between rebuilds.)

Your Pinto should be able to be sold for $3-4K easily, making the cost for the retrofit and the first rebuild at 5000 miles a total of $8500 - $12000, or $1.70 to $2.40 per mile.

Compare that to the cost per mile for a top Pinto, and you've got your answer.

Was the Van Diemen F2000 car ever designed to handle the extras horsepower,torque and especially the wider wheels?Did VD figure this into the evolutution of the chassis.If they did great, but I will bet that the gearbox will be affected as well as the gears and the rest of the final drive.I still think the class is the best in all of club racing with or without the Zetec.If you save money on engine rebuilds you may increase some other maintenance issues with the Zetec.It is of course a much better and more reliable engine.Any measures to equalize the Zetec with the pinto will make it more acceptable to most competitors.

I feel Rob's pain. And... he just stated what a lot of guys were thinking.
My understanding was that the enginebuilder presented his letter on the request of a group of racers, not that it matters. [img]smile.gif[/img]
I slept on it last night and decided if I were King... I'd leave the Zetecs in FA and ban all the old Atlantic cars. Just kidding. [img]smile.gif[/img]
Another issue that Rob's note reminded me of, that will have to be addressed, is the supply chain for engines that the SCCA will decide are legal. Currently, anybody can build a FC motor. Buy a GCR and have at it. Now, as a clubbie, I worry a bit about the sealed motor concept. I like the class because we can engineer... we can choose our tires, our shocks, our chassis, yadda, yadda, yadda. I don't like seeing the class become a spec racer.
We have a lot of great engine builders all over the country that have supported us for many years. Are we putting them out of business, or is it just a fact of life? I mean there aren't that many steam locomotive repair shops anymore either.
Lots to think about. But I feel the numbers Pare is presenting will seal the deal over time.

Just a thought from a Zetec Pro series crew guy (me) and not a ff racer perspective, at the Sebring pro race in March we had to take out the ECU's in tech and they were randomly re-distributed back to us to put back into our cars. In our "digital" age, is policing the FI/Eng mgt electronics doable at the club level?

-Dave

P.S another "deep thought" Remember the the club works in mysterious ways...it's taken us four years just to get 4# pounds off the Kent Flywheel passed.....
:confused:

I would love to here from some of the SuperVee guys who were around during the change from air to water to FA. I'd bet the discussions were much like this one. The "If I only had the money" argument isn't just about the motor it's about the package. Would I rather be driving an '02 VD with pinto power than a 93/95? Hell yes, but right now my budget was only large enough for the 93/95. Five years from now I hope that the prices for '00 Zetecs are around what '98 prices are today. If and when that happens I will sell what will most likely be a vintage leagal FC and buy a good regional Zetec.

I understand Froggies concerns about this becoming a Spec Class, but when EFI is involved having sealed engines and ECU's is a must. I think that we won't become a fully spec class but we will have a spec motor. Chassis, shocks, wheels and tires should still be open.

[size="1"][ May 16, 2003, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: BrooksHall ][/size]

I was and it sucked.
The first 3 cars in the 1980 runoffs instantly went from that status to good regional cars at best. I know, I owned one of them.

Some good news... If the Competition Board ever checks with the FSR advisory committee, F2000.com has regular posters who sit on the committee...

Formula/ Sports Racer Advisory Committee:
Phil Creighton, Chairman
Joe Stimola
Mike Grubb
Ben Beasley
Brian Little
Jim Schings
Randy Cook
Charlie Warner
Dave Gomberg
John Merriman
Rick Silver
Satn Clayton
Liaisons: Lybarger & Kloepfer

Wasn't there a post from "Purple Frog" about changing the engine specs to allow for some more cost effective parts a while back? I have an illegal club racer (FS/FL) that is lots cheaper than the spec motor and makes horespower more along the Z-Tech lines. What about moving towards something like that. The pinto would be more competetive with the z and less money than it is now.
If you keep the same carb and manifold, I think you could up ci to allow overbore without sleeves,flat top pistons, no roller cam, stock valve angles, a distributor. Probably couldn't go crazy with hp no matter what you did and you could run the std big valve english head, 2300 or chevy rods, std wisco piston, kent cam/lifter, unilite distributors, etc. Pretty inexpensive, pretty reliable and some extra hp

With the changes this year and last this is no longer just a engine issue. The Zetec are using bigger wheels, different front wings, shocks etc. This all needs factored in.

No need to worry about the other stuff that they've done to the pro series - it has nothing to do with whether or not you upgrade the engine in Club.

How 'bout selling the Pinto mill and Hewland and installing a Yamaha R1 motor and a Quaiffe chain driven diff. Let's call it F1000. Every spring there is a new stock of low mile sportbike engines made available courtey of low experience, testosterone driven 18 year olds. Heck all you have to do is take your trailer up to the first hairpin on GA highway 180 near Suches, GA on a pretty weekend and wait.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by R. Pare:
No need to worry about the other stuff that they've done to the pro series - it has nothing to do with whether or not you upgrade the engine in Club.

---

I'm sure the guys who bought cars this year and had to change to new wings and bigger wheels to run FA might think it applies. I think the whole thing is going to be ugly.

Scott has brought up another issue. The current rule states that to run a Zetec in FA one must meet the "current" pro rules. I have understood that to mean you must have the wider wheels, Avon approved tires, new wings, sealed shocks, et al.
There will probably be some challenges this summer to some cars that are showing up with older front wings, non-spec tires, and non-sealed motors.
The point being, if we allow the Zetec to migrate into FC, will we take away all the restrictions and allow open shocks, tires, etc? And, what size wheels? Not problems that can not be solved, but they do need to be addressed.
The "current pro rules" clause has got to go. The pro series may decide to change rules between every event. It would be a nightmare for SCCA tech to enforce.

True, there would be $$ concerns to those guys that buy a used, or new, Zetec pro car and try to run it in FC, but that is their problem, and they will be going into it knowing beforehand that, at the minimum, they will have to change the wheels - they can still use the Dynamics shocks and the wings of the Pro series (and in neither of those items are any sort of advantage over other profiles or manufacturers).

IF the proposal only is to allow PRO-spec Zetecs into FC (as it seems to be at the moment) then there is definetely a problem, as the current Pinto FC cars won't be competitive.

IF, however, the proposal is that Zetec ENGINES be allowed into FC, AND some sort of HP equivalency mods are allowed to the Pinto, OR the Zetec is choked back somehow instead, then I say "Go for it".

Richard, I do not believe there is any formal request at this time to let the Zetec car in FC with the pro spec configuration mandated. The only issue here with the pro spec configuration is the wheels (I believe). I am with you and see no reason to change wheels for the club guys at this time. At some future date, if everyone wanted bigger wheels, I guess thast could be looked at but at this time I hope everything is focused on just a motor equivlency formula.

There have been formal requests to allow the zetec engine in FC and there is work currently underway, as stated above, to come up with an equivlency formula. The current thinking (I believe) is to up the Pinto with an approximately 10-12 HP cam/carb upgrade (cost I guess would be about $600.00 to $700.00) and then limit the zetec with an intake restrictor. This would be easy to police and would be done in a way as to not require ECU changes.

I prefer this formula since FMs and the new FSCCA cars will be become less of a problem to pass (since we would have better HP to pass on the straights and the usual better handling). It is in the best long term interest of the class to combine the current FC cars and the zetecs, but this MUST be done in a way as to not render the Pinto cars not competitive. The SCCA must error in favor of the Pinto cars if there is any modest performance advantage, the new cars should absolutely not be allowed to enter with an engine-based advantage. Any zetec disadvantage could be sorted out with time through removing weight restrictions or something.

The most important thing is to let the Comp Board know the FC class driver and team opinions through email and letters. The Comp Board does receive, read and respond to member input. This decision should be based on both the regional and national driver inputs.

A pro spec Zetec and a competative national running FC car are not that far apart. Mike Andersen's time at Mid-Ohio was less than a second off of the best Zetec time. And he bested a lot of Zetec cars!!
Its easy for me to say now but....I can't figure out why everyone wants to up the HP on the pinto - With the better hardware to hold it together - whatever work to balance the whole thing out - Its just going to get costly! make a mandated min weight for the zetec in club - leave some specific pro stuff on it (wings, wheels, tire compound) and have at it.....
FYI Zetec now has barge boards - and next year there is talk of a sequential gearbox - after that is probably no-lift shift.... Its going to be VERY hard to talk this car into FC..... But then again - I remember a couple of years ago Club Racing said they would not allow Sequentials in FA - Now everyone has one....Food for thought...

Matt if all of the above becomes fact (gearbox areo etc) I think the club will have to allow the motor and not the package. Then Primus would have to deliver two types of cars an FC and F2000 (pro-spec car). If Club allows the full boat F2000 car it would make more sense to make this car an FA.

Matt-
Are you going to Lime Rock?
Any tips for me, I haven't been there yet.
And barge boards have been approved but I did not see any at the recent test. PR1 might have had them but they would have been the only team there with them.

Hey Andy

I think you will find its an easy track to pick up - Its all about getting momentum and keeping it! West bend is 100+mph corner - don't look at how close the guardrail is or your likely to tag it! The downhill is flat - but make sure your on the line - the pavement changes so much off line - that you will most likely have a huge tanker if your off. The line around Big Bend (1&2) is up in the air - theres cement patches that can go either way (grippy or slick) - Keeping the left tires just off the cement works most of the time - Hey wait I can't tell you everything!!! :D It won't be too bad for you! I figured it was PR1 with that stuff..... (but it may be good at Road America....If it does anything...)

The car is turning into something that is more FA than FC - I agree!

I think it may be becoming obvious that the Zetec pro cars are having a negative effect on national FC entries. Regionals are drawing more FCs than many national events. Many serious national pilots converted to Zetec leaving a void in national race entries. Word is that there is only one or maybe two entries so far for the Road Atlanta national in two weeks. Even my old Buford could finish 3rd in that field.

What does this mean?

1. With numbers down, it will be hard for FC to argue as a force to be reckoned with. Case in point, is the rotten qualifying schedule at the Runoffs.

2. Since the pro guys run different sized tires, us regional clubies have very few good castoff tires to chose from. :rolleyes:

3. If more Zetecs run in FA this year, than pintos run in FC, (at national events) it might be a no-brainer for Topeka to make a decision.

Please note; I'm selfish, so the number two issue is nearest and dearist to my heart. [img]smile.gif[/img]

But, seriously.... GT1Vette has been running the numbers, and in many divisions it is mathematically possible for regional racers (that hold national licenses) to enter national events this summer and qualify for the Runoffs.

During our big party last weekend we big hearted regional racers devised a plan to give FC more clout at the Runoffs. On the theory that if all 8 divisions sent a full compliment of 10 entries, they would have to break up the FM/FC qualifying sessions to get all the cars safely on the track. So... this summer we clubies enter national races and qualify for the Runoffs thus swelling the entry of FCs. A lot of us old CFCers have always dreamed on a trip to the Runoffs since hanging over the fence at Atlanta in the 70s and watching Dave have all the fun. This could be the last year for pinto cars, the last time we could get in the big show without buying a new ride.

With that in mind we that are in the less populated divisions enter 4 nationals this summer, score in the top ten and go to the Runoffs.
To expand on this plan further... screw the full week to attend the Runoffs. Why spend all that cash. A CFC car or '94 VD doesn't have a chance in hell, so just show up early enough to get through tech and start at the back for Sunday's big race. Are you catching the idea yet?

Think of the bragging rights! "Fastest '88 Reynard in the 2003 Runoffs". "Fastest '96 VD at the '03 Runoffs". Or even better..."This car was not lapped at the Runoffs!"

And because we love the really serious national guys that have supplied us with great takeoff tires in the past, we don't want to mess up their race. So on the lap before the leaders are about to lap us, we drive through pit lane as they go by on the pit straight. [img]smile.gif[/img] (Of course we will have to look out for possible "castoff tire whores" that may cut deals with certain top national teams to stay out and block. ;) )

I know this sounds sort of tongue-in-cheek, but there is a serious vein to it. If FC had 60-70 entries it would have to change the view from Topeka. And most of those in Topeka can't tell the difference between an '88 Reynard and a '95 Citation... a full field is a full field.

Now that I think of it, I guess what I'm really saying is if pinto guys want to keep a pinto class, 60 of them need to go to the Runoffs. And if guys with antiquated '97 VDs don't want to go, get out of the way and let the '88 Reynards in. Talk about guys that would be in awe to be there. Plus, we put on a great party. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Sounds like a win-win to me.

Now... if we could get the serious national guys to support us in this little endeavour... ;)

I suppose that could work Frog. Although I still think the Zetec is a ton more fun than a Pinto. A Pinto is way underpowered for the grip it has. When my dad bought his Swift DB-3 he had to take a year off (almost a full year) to pay for it. I am desperately trying to talk him into doing the same thing at the end of 2003 to buy a white Van Diemen (that is trying to win races and the championship) being run in the pro series right now.....hmmm I wonder whose car that is.... Basically I see your desires to keep the pinto but I think you would love the zetec so much more that if you drove someone's (Marshalls) then maybe you would do what my dad is going to do (I pray) and sit out a year and get a Zetec and sell Buford. Think of it, you could finally have your own Quicksilver engine that is as good as anyone else's and can use it for 5,000+ miles, AND you can use tires for over 200 miles without hurting yourself, it is ALMOST too good to be true. I think the numbers would hurt for a year or two until everyone could afford to convert but it is evolution. The days of the pinto are numbered and in the long run it will be cheaper to just switch and get it over with instead of trying to make the Zetec and the Pinto equal each other.

Andy,
while I sympathize with your plight about talking your dad into buying a certain white car, the vast majority of the people on this forum and in FC in general would be pretty much completely shot out of racing if we had to go out and plunk down $30K + for a car. Also given is the fact that their current car would be rendered pretty much worthless. Do not forget the constant rule changes we have seen in just 2 years of ztec running (new noses, new wheels) that would pretty much use up an entire years budget for some of us. There was an earlier thread on converting and the basic conclusion was that it is not cost effective to convert a pinto car to ztec.

Remember this is CLUB racing for the MEMBERS and not to provide a place for the pro series to sell off their old cars.

In some divisions the Pinto is still strong. There are 15 FC pintos entered for the Limerock Natl. and it is still pretty early. We had 11 pintos at Nelson which historically has very low turn outs. I would guess that there will be over 20 pintos at limerock and the Glen will no doubt also have a huge turnout.

The pinto FC is far from history in the NE div. I agree Andy that the Van Diemen has more grip than its current horsepower, (or as you said last year, "it is underpowered for its horsepower") but there has to be a fair way to make the transition than total obsoletion.

"It is underpowered for its horsepower". I loved that one.

Andy or Matt, tell us about Mondays race. If the conditions were anything like they were during the Trans-Am race I pity you.

Steve-
My whole point about having my dad take time off if I can convince him to buy the car was that yeah most people would probably have to do that, he certainly would so numbers might be low and it might be a struggle but eventually I think it can be done. You are right though that the current cars would be practically obsolete because of this. You could either keep your car and convert and sell off the pinto parts to the CFC people or you would have to sell your package as a whole which can be sold for $25K depending on what you have which is a good price and almost matches a used Zetec price but a point you made me think of is if the Zetec replaces the Pinto then your cars value went down significantly and couldn't help the cost of getting into Zetec.

Rick-
You scared me, I thought I typed that whole horsepower deal wrong again. Are you going to be at Mid-Ohio this weekend? I am getting there tomorrow night (just got home from Lime Rock today).

Scott-
The race at Lime Rock was actually worse than the Trans-Am race. As soon as we got on track it started raining a lot harder and as soon as we got off it started to quit raining. On the start I never heard Nic tell me it was green, I drove off the track because I thought I was going straight but I guess not, I passed two or three cars on the start without ever hearing them or seeing them as I passed. The only way I knew I passed them was Nic told me on the radio that I had a good start when we were under yellow the first time. On the restarts I was having Nic tell me when to brake for turn one since I couldn't see anything. On one restart I passed four cars, split them right in the middle, how I didn't hit them is anyone's guess. Another restart I was going along and then there was a yellow car sideways in front of me so I had to lock them up and slide into him breaking my front wing and got hit on the side by another car at the same time but the yellow car kept sliding and went out of my way so I continued to pass someone else going into the first turn. Just some samples of how crazy the rain was. Everywhere I have gone so far this year has rained, hopefully it will be dry this coming weekend at Mid-Ohio, anyone know the forecast?

Andy,

I'm going to Mid Ohio for my first time, .. doing the school on Friday.

Blue #42 vector FF, .. look me up, or let me know how to find you.

But I guess, .. since you're going, .. it's gonna rain. :D

Curtis

I have never driven/raced in conditions like that - I think in the movie Grand Prix - The guy that plays Sarti talks for a minute about racing in the rain. I think he says something like - "Its not the rain so much - its the spray..." The rain itself was a great challenge to drive in - the spray was so bad at times - I couldn't see to my hands on the wheel... Local knowledge really helped me!!

I was trying to think of how best to describe it to my wife when I got home.... Next Christmas - take that opaque tissue out of the box from a new shirt (That seems like all I get for Christmas now...) - tape it to your head and run around the house! you know where everything is in your house - and you'll find that it can be done through the shadows and terrain changes... Then throw some relatives out there doing it at the same time and see what happens!!

The start was great for me I found a "clear" lane on the outside of the front straight and went from 13th to 9th - a few cars fell off and on the next restart I used the same outside straight and went to 5th - During one safety car period - I finally noticed that I was soaked and really started to get cold - I've never been so cold that my teeth chattered - my arms were shaking. Restarts were blind - you just heard motors accelerate and went by shadows - I know the ultimate rain light is THE best right now... But you couldn't see them until the nose was 2 feet away!! Then my electrics started acting funny - my radio started to pick up track security or something - then making really high pitch noises... The shift lights started flashing for some reason then the warning lights - then both together - but the display was fine... Thats just some of it - basically it was a nightmare. If it was a club race - I would have pulled off after 5 laps (unless I was first or second!!)

I think maybe the conditions were the worst I have seen in 30 years of racing where they actually let you race. That said, I don't think it was really racing, more surviving. Ask how many wrecked cars there were between the morning qualifying session and the race?

For the first time in 30 years of racing, I pulled off on the pace lap and parked it. I'm 51 years old and I don't drive for a living. It was that bad.

Or... you were that smart.

Sounds like this would have been a great race to see on TV! Even for the guys who were in it so they could see what actualy took place. ;)

Andy and Matt -- better you than me! Good job.
Bob, good decision. I've only raced one time in the rain in 3 years and didn't enjoy not being able to see. I had some races in sprints where I couldn't see past the roll cage because of dust. Not fun. In a WOO race one time I was behind Kinser and he made a 90 degree left turn. Seemed like a good guy to follow and barely missed a guy who had spun. Never saw him until I was past.

Curtis-
I am here now (Mid-Ohio) and guess what, it's supposed to rain tomorrow and Saturday. Sorry.
I will be coaching for Tom Reinsel with his black and yellow '00 Van Diemen. We will be in a garage just not sure which one so come find me. I will have a green Brumbaugh Racing t-shirt on tomorrow and Friday and the same thing on Sat and Sun only a collared shirt.
See everyone there

Andy,

No, .. don't ell me about rain, .. I'm soooo sick of rain.

I'm doing the school on Friday, .. I have no crew so if I get time I'll find you during the day, .. at worst I'll find you later after we're done.

Coaching Reinsel??, .. OK, .. I see how you are, .. just go off and coach some one else, .. and forget about your photographer from Formula car, .. yup. .. I'm gonna have to talk to Rob about this, ...

kidding, .. .. Tom is a cylinder head customer of mine. Seems like a good guy, .. just tell him to lift any time he sees a blue Vector in the mirror.8)

I've been told Mid Ohio is a, . um, .. well a bitch. Tough track, .. and much tougher in the rain. The challenge should be fun.

I'll get there thursday around 7pm.

My cell is 703-626-1610, ..

Curtis